iPhone 4

Posted by: drakino

iPhone 4 - 23/06/2010 20:53

Originally Posted By: andym
So other than myself and Andy, is anyone else seriously looking at getting a new iPhone tomorrow?


After briefly considering jumping ship to Android via the Evo prior to the iPhone 4 launch, I've stuck to my Apple fanyboyism for one more round of contracts.

Should be able to post first impressions later tonight. Apple would only ship it to the address on file with AT&T, so it's waiting at home for me now.
Posted by: DWallach

Re: iPhone 4 - 23/06/2010 23:04

I decided to jump ship for the Droid X and Verizon. I've played with other Android gadgets and decided that now's the time to make the jump. I suspect it's not much of a coincidence that the ship date for the Droid X is only one week after the expiration of my AT&T contract for my iPhone 3G.
Posted by: drakino

Re: iPhone 4 - 24/06/2010 01:35

First impressions are pretty positive so far. The screen is quite impressive, and text in every app is noticeably sharper. Managed to try out FaceTime with someone, and as advertised it just works. Hard to say how often I will use it though, especially with the current iPhone 4 to iPhone 4 limitation.

It will take a bit to get used to the new design, similar to moving from the initial iPhone to the 3G/3GS. It's similar enough, but just different holding it that the little things like the flat back stand out.

Camera wise, it seems much improved over the 3GS. Much less noise visible in lowlight shots.

As far as the Droid X, I am only now getting up to speed on it, as I missed the announcements earlier today. I'll be curious to hear how it works out for you, especially coming from the iPhone. Overall from the quick impressions out there, it looks to be a decent Android phone, thankfully with physical buttons. Didn't really care much for the touch sensitive ones on the Evo.
Posted by: maczrool

Re: iPhone 4 - 24/06/2010 02:46

What about reports that holding the edges drops the signal to nothing? Are you experiencing this? It seems grabbing the antenna edges detunes it quite a bit at least in some cases. I would have though it pretty obvious that Apple had thoroughly tested the antenna design before producing millions of them but maybe not.

Stu
Posted by: Dignan

Re: iPhone 4 - 24/06/2010 03:16

Originally Posted By: maczrool
I would have though it pretty obvious that Apple had thoroughly tested the antenna design before producing millions of them but maybe not.

They were totally going to test that, but in the middle of doing so there was this thing with a bar... smile

But seriously, wasn't that guy someone who worked in the antenna department?

I played with a new iPhone for about 80 seconds tonight. A friend at a show we went to had one, and the screen is definitely very very nice and it's extremely hard to distinguish pixels even up close. The phone was snappy, and the camera was noticeably faster than my wife's 3G.

The only negative I could gleam in such a short hands-on was that I don't like the feel of it in my hand as much as the 3GS. It's not that I missed the curved back, but the sides definitely don't feel as nice.

The Droid X is a pretty cool phone. As much as I'd love that big screen, though, I think I prefer the size of the Incredible/Nexus One a little more. It's sort of the sweet spot for me. Mostly I'm just happy that Android devices are reaching a point where there's decent selection of good hardware. Now we'll just have to wait and see when they catch up to some of the specs that Apple just dropped with the iPhone 4 smile
Posted by: tman

Re: iPhone 4 - 24/06/2010 03:42

Originally Posted By: Dignan
But seriously, wasn't that guy someone who worked in the antenna department?

The guy was a programmer and if reports are accurate then he worked on the software for the baseband i.e. radio. You'd need to be an EE which specialises in RF if you wanted to do the antenna.

Alledgely the problem is only the signal meter that is displayed and not with actual reception.

Gizmodo sure know how to milk a story for all its worth. Are there enough updates on that story with an iPhone in various positions? As this is Gizmodo, the next update will probably say that its been confirmed that iPhone 4 has 0 bars if you put your genitalia up against it.
Posted by: andy

Re: iPhone 4 - 24/06/2010 07:43

I have mine now, just waiting for it to sync all my apps over to it.

I had a quick play before syncing and so far it all just feels/looks amazing. The screen really is something special, the camera is very fast and the whole thing is hugely snappier than my 3G.
Posted by: maczrool

Re: iPhone 4 - 24/06/2010 09:54

Quote:
Alledgely the problem is only the signal meter that is displayed and not with actual reception


Yeah except one guy seemed to show data throughput dropping way off when holding.

Stu
Posted by: DWallach

Re: iPhone 4 - 24/06/2010 10:30

Originally Posted By: Dignan
A friend at a show we went to had one, and the screen is definitely very very nice and it's extremely hard to distinguish pixels even up close.

Somewhere, deep inside Google's Android group, there must be an argument brewing about how they should support multiple display resolutions. They don't have the luxury that Apple has of only having to worry about one new display at a time.
Posted by: wfaulk

Re: iPhone 4 - 24/06/2010 10:52

There already exist a multitude of display resolutions for Android devices. (Including at least 854x480, 800x480, 480x320, 400x240, and 320x240.) I haven't had the opportunity to look into that yet, but one assumes that they've already addressed that problem.
Posted by: Dignan

Re: iPhone 4 - 24/06/2010 11:04

Originally Posted By: maczrool
Quote:
Alledgely the problem is only the signal meter that is displayed and not with actual reception

Yeah except one guy seemed to show data throughput dropping way off when holding.

Engadget is saying it's happening with their unit every single time they hold it left-handed. Don't know how true this is, but I guess we'll see once everyone gets theirs today...
Posted by: DWallach

Re: iPhone 4 - 24/06/2010 11:11

When I say resolution, I'm not just talking about screen size but pixel density. Apple radically increased the density of its pixels for the same-sized screen, and this required some non-trivial changes in the software. I'll bet that Android would require similar surgery.
Posted by: wfaulk

Re: iPhone 4 - 24/06/2010 14:13

There's a significant difference in ppi between, for example, The G1 (Dream) and the Nexus One: 180 v. 254. There were some applications that were updated to take advantage of (that is, not look absurd on) the higher res devices. Given, it's not the doubling that happened at the release of the iPhone4 (163 v. 326), but it's not nothing.
Posted by: drakino

Re: iPhone 4 - 24/06/2010 14:33

Looks like I can replicate the bars dropping here at work, going from 5 bars down to 2 depending on how I hold the phone. And yeah, it's definitely impacting signal. Two speeds tests from the same spot with the phone in the exact same orientation and space, just changed how I was holding it.
Posted by: wfaulk

Re: iPhone 4 - 24/06/2010 14:52

Ouch.

Also, it sucks that your iPhone gets better upload speeds than my "business class" broadband connection.
Posted by: tfabris

Re: iPhone 4 - 24/06/2010 15:19

Originally Posted By: drakino
Looks like I can replicate the bars dropping here at work, going from 5 bars down to 2 depending on how I hold the phone.


Wouldn't that be an expected behavior for *any* phone?
Posted by: andym

Re: iPhone 4 - 24/06/2010 15:45

Well, I was right about Phones4U being incompetent. After waiting half an hour, my reservation papers were scrutinized, and I was told by the store manager they didn't have any 32GB models for Orange and would I like a 16GB one instead, I declined, much to his and everyone else in the store's surprise. Apparently the store manager knew this fact several days ago but the girl that took my deposit yesterday didn't. Luckily I only wasted 30 minutes, if I'd been waiting hours it would've been a different story, I also got my deposit back.

The most amazing thing is that by way of recompense he said I could have a 32GB 3GS instead! I politely informed him that if I'd wanted one of those I could've just walked in and bought it yesterday.

I had a go with one in the Apple Store in front of the drooling fanboys queued up outside. It is really nice, and while I'd really like to have one before we go to London next week, I'm now happy to wait until I can just walk in off the street and buy one then and there.
Posted by: wfaulk

Re: iPhone 4 - 24/06/2010 16:26

Originally Posted By: andym
much to his and everyone else in the store's surprise

For some reason, I'm imagining a roomful of gasps, backs of hands to foreheads, and, perhaps, a few ladies going faint.
Posted by: andym

Re: iPhone 4 - 24/06/2010 16:34

It certainly raised a few eyebrows. Since everyone else was seemingly pretty desperate to lay their hands on one at any cost (several people had been turned away from the line at the Apple Store) it was obviously unthinkable that I might turn such an offer down.
Posted by: Dignan

Re: iPhone 4 - 24/06/2010 16:36

Originally Posted By: andym
It certainly raised a few eyebrows.

Following Bitt's description, I'm now also picturing monocles dropping.
Posted by: andym

Re: iPhone 4 - 24/06/2010 16:40

It definitely wasn't a monocles-type crowd in there. Not a glass of Port in sight!
Posted by: drakino

Re: iPhone 4 - 24/06/2010 16:41

Originally Posted By: tfabris
Wouldn't that be an expected behavior for *any* phone?

Not to this extreme. The big problem is that the really slow speed came from when I held the phone in portrait mode like I would normally when using it. The fast speed came from moving my hands to touch the top and bottom, similar to how it would be held in landscape mode.
Posted by: tfabris

Re: iPhone 4 - 24/06/2010 17:47

I'm curious if the same thing happens on, say, a 3G with its plastic casing. To rule out (or rule in) antenna-grounding-to-body issues. In other words, narrow down whether it's your body mass blocking the signal, or your skin touching the new metal casing, that's the issue.
Posted by: tman

Re: iPhone 4 - 24/06/2010 17:55

Originally Posted By: tfabris
I'm curious if the same thing happens on, say, a 3G with its plastic casing. To rule out (or rule in) antenna-grounding-to-body issues. In other words, narrow down whether it's your body mass blocking the signal, or your skin touching the new metal casing, that's the issue.

If the iPhone 4 is in the Apple rubber case then you can grasp it any way you want and it doesn't affect the signal.

When they announced that you'd actually be holding onto part of the antenna, I did wonder how they worked around problems like this. I'm not good at RF or analog design so I just assumed that they'd come up with something.
Posted by: drakino

Re: iPhone 4 - 24/06/2010 18:20

It's definitely my skin touching the metal case in a certain spot (lower left side) that is causing the issue. I used a single post it note to sit between my skin and the phone, and had full signal strength again.
Posted by: tman

Re: iPhone 4 - 24/06/2010 18:39

Originally Posted By: drakino
It's definitely my skin touching the metal case in a certain spot (lower left side) that is causing the issue. I used a single post it note to sit between my skin and the phone, and had full signal strength again.

Thats where the WiFi antenna meets the cellular antenna. What happens if you turn off WiFi and touch that point?
Posted by: drakino

Re: iPhone 4 - 24/06/2010 19:21

The speedtests above were done with wifi off.
Posted by: drakino

Re: iPhone 4 - 24/06/2010 23:14

Originally Posted By: Apple
Gripping any phone will result in some attenuation of its antenna performance with certain places being worse than others depending on the placement of the antennas. This is a fact of life for every wireless phone. If you ever experience this on your Phone 4, avoid gripping it in the lower left corner in a way that covers both sides of the black strip in the metal band, or simply use one of many available cases.

Quick response already, but I suppose expected with how much it's being talked about. It hasn't been a problem when I'm talking on the phone, but it is definitely an issue when I'm holding it in my left hand to use apps.

I'll let the insanity die down around the Apple Stores, and try out a bumper case this round. Been using all the previous iPhones without a case, and holding them the same way without this being an issue.
Posted by: jimhogan

Re: iPhone 4 - 25/06/2010 00:48

I am very much enjoying my HTC Evo. I am especially happy about the Android "Locale" app.
Posted by: tman

Re: iPhone 4 - 25/06/2010 09:16

Steve says don't hold it like this.
Posted by: maczrool

Re: iPhone 4 - 25/06/2010 13:53

Originally Posted By: tman


I got mine after 5 hours in line and have not observed this issue with my unit.

Stu
Posted by: tanstaafl.

Re: iPhone 4 - 25/06/2010 14:44

Originally Posted By: tman

I enjoyed this comment:

[excerpt:] 1 year simply isn't enough time to properly test a new design and iron out the kinks

For God's sake, how much time does it take to figure out that if you actually pick up the phone and try to use it it quits working?

How is it even remotely possible for this kind of blunder to make it into production?

tanstaafl.
Posted by: tfabris

Re: iPhone 4 - 25/06/2010 15:44

Originally Posted By: tanstaafl.
How is it even remotely possible for this kind of blunder to make it into production?


Because it's not a blunder. As Apple said, it happens to a lot of phones, not just the iPhone.
Posted by: RobotCaleb

Re: iPhone 4 - 25/06/2010 16:36

Oh no, not you, too!
Posted by: drakino

Re: iPhone 4 - 25/06/2010 17:26

Originally Posted By: tfabris
Because it's not a blunder. As Apple said, it happens to a lot of phones, not just the iPhone.

I've never owned a phone (including the 2007, 2008 and 2009 iPhone) that when holding it in a normal and natural position causes the signal to degrade that severely 2 blocks away from a tower. Being that my primary use of the device is for data services, the degradation is very noticeable. I'll be keeping the device though, since the tradeoff of getting a case is much easier to live with then dealing with the issues of trying to go Android.

I wonder how much testing was actually done with the bare phone out in the field. We all know about the lost phone, and it was in a case designed to make it look like the older models. It's very plausible that none of the field testers ever held the naked phone out in public the same way the masses are now using the device.

The good news though seems to be that the iPhone 4 is holding up much better in the dense environment of New York for actual phone calls. http://www.engadget.com/2010/06/25/the-jimmy-fallon-test-is-the-iphone-4-dropping-less-calls/
Even Brian Lam (of "we must bash Apple due to our own felony class mistakes" Gizmodo) was quoted in the New York Times as saying even with the antenna issue, he is able to use it as a phone in his house, something he had problems with on all previous models and AT&T.
Posted by: tfabris

Re: iPhone 4 - 25/06/2010 18:31

I work in a company that, as part of our day to day work, has to test WWAN devices: Phones, pocketPC's, WWAN cards, laptops with embedded WWAN chips, you name it, we've seen it. And I'll attest that any device's reception can change depending on its orientation, or whether or not you're blocking its antenna with large masses of RF-absorbing material (like a glass of water or a hand or a body or a desk drawer, etc.)

I think that the reported changes in reception are simply due to people looking at it more closely now, when they didn't have a reason to look at fluctuating signal strength before.

It's interesting to note that some people are saying the unit has better reception than prior units in optimum conditions. I wonder if this is just a question of scale.
Posted by: tman

Re: iPhone 4 - 25/06/2010 19:02

Orientation and a mass blocking it I can understand and will accept as the price you pay for using something that is wireless.

It is more that you can't touch that very specific spot on the side because you end up detuning or shorting the antenna that is a little off. If this came up in testing then they should have coated the metal band with a non conductive material like a varnish or just designed a plastic band that goes around it. You'd get none of the signal issues and the aesthetics and size of the phone would be minimally impacted.

Originally Posted By: tfabris
It's interesting to note that some people are saying the unit has better reception than prior units in optimum conditions. I wonder if this is just a question of scale.

The antenna in a cell phone is generally tiny so the metal band is probably helping because its significantly larger. IANARE (I am not an RF engineer)
Posted by: gbeer

Re: iPhone 4 - 25/06/2010 22:21

So why didn't they make that "tap to focus" function work for still photos too.
Posted by: altman

Re: iPhone 4 - 25/06/2010 22:28

Originally Posted By: gbeer
So why didn't they make that "tap to focus" function work for still photos too.


Uhhh, it always has. It's only new for video....
Posted by: JBjorgen

Re: iPhone 4 - 26/06/2010 01:02

Interesting that the one person who could knowledgeably comment on the antenna issues skips straight to "tap to focus".

I just wonder Steve & Co know about this beforehand, and if so were they just too far along to do anything about it?

IMHO, it certainly seems fair to me that Apple should at least give away a free inexpensive skin of some sort to iPhone4 purchasers.
Posted by: tman

Re: iPhone 4 - 26/06/2010 01:11

Originally Posted By: JBjorgen
Interesting that the one person who could knowledgeably comment on the antenna issues skips straight to "tap to focus".

Mmm... It is difficult to comment on a hot topic like that without incurring the wrath of superiors and lawyers. Even the disclaimer that their views are their own and not of their company wouldn't really cover it since this is a public forum where anybody can look at it.
Posted by: drakino

Re: iPhone 4 - 26/06/2010 02:18

If I remember right, Hugo is a manager on the non RF side of the iPhone hardware, so he probably has little he can say personally without speaking for someone else. Hardware wise, the rest of the phone is quite nice. As far as the signal dropping issues, some reports are starting to indicate it may be more a problem with the baseband not properly adjusting, due to some people seeing similar issues on 3GS devices only after the iOS 4 upgrade. Well, so says AppleInsider anyhow.

What amazes me is how well the new screen is working with the OS. It's really making me want this high DPI screen in other devices now, as long as the software is up to the task. DPI scaling in Windows is horrible, to the point I generally avoided the laptops with really high resolution screens. If OS X on the desktop can do this same job, sign me up for a new monitor.

Oh, and of course, the iPhone 4 blends too...
Posted by: gbeer

Re: iPhone 4 - 26/06/2010 03:22

Originally Posted By: altman
Originally Posted By: gbeer
So why didn't they make that "tap to focus" function work for still photos too.


Uhhh, it always has. It's only new for video....


Should this work on a 3G iPhone with the new os?
Posted by: tman

Re: iPhone 4 - 26/06/2010 04:41

Originally Posted By: gbeer
Should this work on a 3G iPhone with the new os?

No. 3GS or better.
Posted by: mlord

Re: iPhone 4 - 26/06/2010 11:14

Originally Posted By: JBjorgen
IMHO, it certainly seems fair to me that Apple should at least give away a free inexpensive skin of some sort to iPhone4 purchasers.

A simple strip of Scotch tape, or clear packing tape?
Posted by: TigerJimmy

Re: iPhone 4 - 26/06/2010 20:18

Originally Posted By: mlord
Originally Posted By: JBjorgen
IMHO, it certainly seems fair to me that Apple should at least give away a free inexpensive skin of some sort to iPhone4 purchasers.

A simple strip of Scotch tape, or clear packing tape?


I was thinking something like clear nail varnish. I don't have mine yet, though.
Posted by: drakino

Re: iPhone 4 - 27/06/2010 00:17

For anyone interested in photo quality from the iPhone 4, here are my pictures from the IGDA Picnic event that I went to today. This is held on part of the land Richard Garriott's owns.
Posted by: gbeer

Re: iPhone 4 - 27/06/2010 02:51

Hey! Are the new iPhones any more water resistant than the old ones?

My niece has drowned three of them, and has given up owning one, even thought she really really wants another.

There must be some kind of water proofing that can be applied to the internal boards.
Posted by: tman

Re: iPhone 4 - 27/06/2010 03:30

Originally Posted By: gbeer
Hey! Are the new iPhones any more water resistant than the old ones?

No. It still has holes in it for the sockets etc. No gaskets on the panels either from the teardowns. If the old iPhones are anything to go by then Apple will have put multiple moisture detection pads in it to tell if you've dunked it.

Originally Posted By: gbeer
My niece has drowned three of them, and has given up owning one, even thought she really really wants another.

Maybe she should just stop dunking them in stuff :P There aren't that many waterproof phones out there and the ones that are tend to be the more basic models. They're also generally quite chunky from all the waterproofing.

Originally Posted By: gbeer
There must be some kind of water proofing that can be applied to the internal boards.

You'd have to waterproof the PCBs. The mic. The speaker. The docking port. The headphone socket. The LCD. The touchscreen. The battery etc... Its not just a case of covering the PCB in a conformal coating and calling it waterproof.
Posted by: sn00p

Re: iPhone 4 - 27/06/2010 05:18

Is there a URL on the Apple site (UK) that shows store availability for the next day, like there has been with the 3G and 3GS releases?

I´ve not been in the UK since the release and want to get one when I get back, but need to know whether its even worth the trip to the store to try.

Thanks.

Adrian
Posted by: JBjorgen

Re: iPhone 4 - 27/06/2010 13:16

Quote:
A simple strip of Scotch tape, or clear packing tape?

If Apple were to develop an iTape solution with retina clarity, people would line up for miles!
Posted by: drakino

Re: iPhone 4 - 27/06/2010 13:35

Theses aren't the droids (reception issues) you're looking for?

I'll be curious to see what Apple's formal response is now that Jobs is trying to resort to Jedi mind tricks. I was having definite reception issues with it at the picnic if I held it normally. I even handed it to a few other people just curious to see the phone, and they all killed the signal to the point where it dropped off the network every time, and they weren't even aware of the issue or where to hold it.

And John? iTape? Know where I can get some? :-)
Posted by: tman

Re: iPhone 4 - 27/06/2010 14:53

iTape? I thought thats what those Apple stickers in the box were for. Apple just anticipated this years ago so they've been quietly supplying everybody with them. Time Machine mk 2

Allegedly iOS 4.0.1 will fix it.
Posted by: tanstaafl.

Re: iPhone 4 - 27/06/2010 18:13

Originally Posted By: tman
iTape? I thought thats what those Apple stickers in the box were for. Apple just anticipated this years ago so they've been quietly supplying everybody with them. Time Machine mk 2

Alledgely iOS 4.0.1 will fix it.


As the man said, it's not a bug, it's a feature! The iPhone 4 is actually two devices in one. Sitting on the table, its an iPhone. Pick it up and it seamlessly becomes a Touch. Now, that's innovative engineering!

tanstaafl.
Posted by: hybrid8

Re: iPhone 4 - 28/06/2010 03:48

Originally Posted By: tman
If this came up in testing then they should have ... just designed a plastic band that goes around it.


Like this one? It was announced in the keynote with the phone. I suspect covering up the antenna was the primary goal of this product design. Steep price, but it does include its own metal buttons.



$30 at the Apple Store: http://store.apple.com/us/product/MC597ZM/A?fnode=MTY1NDA0NA&mco=MTgyNjczNTE

The iPhone 4 tech specs, showing all the available colors: http://www.apple.com/iphone/specs.html

Close-up look/review: http://www.ilounge.com/index.php/reviews/entry/apple-iphone-4-bumper/

Posted by: tman

Re: iPhone 4 - 28/06/2010 04:31

Originally Posted By: hybrid8
Like this one? It was announced in the keynote with the phone. I suspect covering up the antenna was the primary goal of this product design. Steep price, but it does include its own metal buttons.

I mean one that is integrated with the phone and not removable. I know that they did the unusual step of releasing the rubber bumper for the iPhone 4 since they've never had anything like that for older iPhones.
Posted by: Dignan

Re: iPhone 4 - 28/06/2010 10:56

They've never even sold their own case before, have they? The conspiracy theorist in me wonders if they did know about this issue, thought it was an issue, and created this case to address it.

I read one story claiming that reception issues like this exist for the Nexus One. I'd never heard of it, and I've certainly never experienced it. Does anyone know what it is? If there's a way to hold my phone that will demonstrably decrease the signal to the same extent it does on the iPhone 4, I will not give them any crap for this. In my experience, though, I've never had a phone do this to this extent, and to say there's "no issue" is absurd.
Posted by: hybrid8

Re: iPhone 4 - 28/06/2010 14:05

There are two issues at play with the iPhone 4 from what I've been able to gather.

There's the normal attenuation issue which can affect signal quality and then there's a software issue which is responsible for all the press we've been seeing. In other words, touching the antenna in a certain way "shouldn't" cause a complete failure of communication.

I think that's why we've seen the two distinctly different messages from Steve Jobs on the issue. The latest of which says there's no "reception issue" and to "stay tuned."
Posted by: drakino

Re: iPhone 4 - 29/06/2010 02:13

Seems Nokia tried to poke Apple about the issue publicly, only to have it backfire with people digging up manuals from Nokia phones advising users not to touch the bottom, and demos of some Nokia phones experiencing the same issue.

http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/10/...lled_on_it.html

So it's definitely not an issue with just the iPhone 4, as the above story shows videos from several phones, including the Nexus One. And as Tony and others have explained, yes, part of this is normal, though hopefully future phone designs will better account for their customers holding them.

For me, I generally don't cup the phone, I hold it with the left edge against my palm, and my finger tips holding the right edge. So for the previous iPhones, this never blocked any major portion of the antenna, but with the iPhone 4, it's connecting the two antennas together to cause my phone to drop signal strength quite a bit. I can't get exact DB numbers since it seems the field test app is no longer accessible on iOS 4. And so far, the Apple store reports being out of stock on the bumpers every time I check. I will continue to "hold differently" for now, to see what Apple's formal fix is.

*edit*, found this good video demonstrating it's not an issue with covering the antenna, it is indeed just "The Spot". http://vimeo.com/12864890
Posted by: Dignan

Re: iPhone 4 - 29/06/2010 03:12

Weird, but I can't tell at all what your opinion on this is, Tom. Am I right in summarizing that you think all phones have this problem, yet the iPhone 4 has it particularly badly and in one single spot that significantly affects it?

I just think it's a bad design.

And I watched that video in the article you linked about the Nexus One reception problems. I attempted to replicate the experiment, but I don't think I have anything on my phone to get the proper information. Do any Android owners know what app would show me current signal strength?

As is, I could only test with the Speedtest.net app. With my phone covered up as completely as possible with my hands (more so than the guy in the video), I simply couldn't get it to alter the speed test results. It appeared that I would occasionally lose one bar, but then it would come back while still covered.

Of course, I'm probably not in a good place to test this. I'll try it when I'm out and about tomorrow, and not when I'm in my house, where I can see a tower from my front door...
Posted by: drakino

Re: iPhone 4 - 29/06/2010 12:05

Originally Posted By: Dignan
Weird, but I can't tell at all what your opinion on this is, Tom. Am I right in summarizing that you think all phones have this problem, yet the iPhone 4 has it particularly badly and in one single spot that significantly affects it?

I just think it's a bad design.

"this problem" is two different issues as others have been pointing out, so my opinion differs depending on what it is.

Any phone is going to have at least some minor signal loss if the antennas are covered up. That part I understand, and am fine with. Simple concept really, cover up the antenna, and it has worse reception. Some loss is to be expected, and most phones when held reasonably do just fine.

Some phones appear to have a design flaw that places the antennas in a spot that when held in a common, but not covering way results in a significant loss of signal. This includes the iPhone 4, and potentially the Nokia E71 based on the performance shown in one of those videos. My opinion on this is lines up more with you in that I find it's a bad design. Now, if the phone has multiple antennas, this may just be a firmware issue of the baseband software not switching properly when the signal degrades. I'm still highly skeptical that firmware is going to fix the iPhone 4 though.

Overall, even if it is a major flaw, it can be worked around with a case or other method. Being that no mobile phone is perfect, I'll take this flaw over other tradeoffs I'd have to deal with on another device. I'm already hooked on the screen, like the camera, and overall enjoy the other features of the iPhone 4. I have trust in the Apple support system that they aren't going to just completely ignore the issue, though it may take a little bit of time to address. At this point the phone isn't even a week old. If the worse case situation has to happen, there is still plenty of time to return it.
Posted by: drakino

Re: iPhone 4 - 29/06/2010 13:23

Oh, I should add, this design flaw could be pretty serious considering it wasn't something my friend though about when he was trying to dial 911 last night. I had a very drunk or otherwise impaired driver nearly run us off the road. After I honked, he swerved back left, across 4 lanes of highway traffic, and was still a big hazard to other drivers. Took a good 30 seconds for my friend to realize the reason the emergency operator couldn't hear him was because he was touching the spot.
Posted by: Dignan

Re: iPhone 4 - 29/06/2010 13:27

Originally Posted By: drakino
Overall, even if it is a major flaw, it can be worked around with a case or other method. Being that no mobile phone is perfect, I'll take this flaw over other tradeoffs I'd have to deal with on another device. I'm already hooked on the screen, like the camera, and overall enjoy the other features of the iPhone 4. I have trust in the Apple support system that they aren't going to just completely ignore the issue, though it may take a little bit of time to address. At this point the phone isn't even a week old. If the worse case situation has to happen, there is still plenty of time to return it.

Fair enough, and I'll agree with that reasonable response. I do have to wonder, though, why Apple chose this go-around to release a case, and hope that one of their solutions is to discount or give away a case to people with problems. There's no way on earth that those "bumper" cases cost anywhere near $30 to make. I'd imagine that if they sold them for $15 they'd still make a significant profit.

I won't say that's the way to do it, but it seems to me that the iPhone problem is more of a problem than it is with other phones, and they need to address their users with something better than "don't hold it that way" or "all phones do this to some extent."
Posted by: hybrid8

Re: iPhone 4 - 29/06/2010 13:41

I guess you didn't see the rumors (or Steve Jobs' indication) about the firmware update coming down the pipe...

I find it very difficult to believe they would not have found the attenuation issues during product testing. This thing was in the field for months. I think that's another flag pointing to a firmware issue.
Posted by: Dignan

Re: iPhone 4 - 29/06/2010 14:38

Originally Posted By: hybrid8
I guess you didn't see the rumors (or Steve Jobs' indication) about the firmware update coming down the pipe...

I'm asking this because I honestly don't know, not because I'm bashing Apple or anything, but what can a software update do to fix this issue?
Posted by: andy

Re: iPhone 4 - 29/06/2010 14:47

The rumours went something like this:

- the phone has a choice of frequencies it can talk to the cell tower on
- when you touch the i-spot it effects some frequencies worse than others
- the phone should notice the drop in signal and switch frequency

Supposedly something in the timing of the frequency hopping is off and can supposedly be fixed. I have no idea whether any of this is true or not.

Interestingly one of the touted improvements by some bloggers before this problem was spotted was that the phone would be better at hopping to uncongested frequencies...
Posted by: andy

Re: iPhone 4 - 29/06/2010 14:50

Given that I can't always reproduce the issue (even in a location I could earlier repro it in), it would seem that something like this software fix might be possible.
Posted by: tman

Re: iPhone 4 - 29/06/2010 14:58

Originally Posted By: Dignan
There's no way on earth that those "bumper" cases cost anywhere near $30 to make. I'd imagine that if they sold them for $15 they'd still make a significant profit.

This is Apple. Everything has a healthy profit margin on it. Still not sure as to how dirt cheap these would be to make though. If you care about precision and good quality materials then the price shoots up and as we all know, Apple do really pay attention to these details.

Its like McDonalds making their Happy Meal toys so they're held together by screws. You'd think making it snap together would be cheaper than employing somebody to screw everything together but it turns out that making a plastic part with the necessary precision is more complicated and expensive.
Posted by: hybrid8

Re: iPhone 4 - 29/06/2010 15:16

Originally Posted By: tman
it turns out that making a plastic part with the necessary precision is more complicated and expensive.


May very well be. But in my manufacturing discussions, it's always been a bit more expensive for designs that used screws. Some designs use both of course. smile
Posted by: Phoenix42

Re: iPhone 4 - 29/06/2010 15:38

Originally Posted By: hybrid8
Some designs use both of course. smile

One example of which is the packaging kids toys come in...
Posted by: drakino

Re: iPhone 4 - 29/06/2010 16:16

The bumper cases from Apple do also have metal buttons in them, to fit over where the normal volume buttons are. That probably also adds to the cost of manufacturing a bit.
Posted by: andy

Re: iPhone 4 - 29/06/2010 16:25

Originally Posted By: drakino
The bumper cases from Apple do also have metal buttons in them, to fit over where the normal volume buttons are. That probably also adds to the cost of manufacturing a bit.

Especially as Steve makes each button on a lathe in his garden shed wink
Posted by: andy

Re: iPhone 4 - 30/06/2010 04:36

A good set of tests and write up of the issues around reception:

http://fscked.co.uk/post/751030001/more-on-the-iphone-4-signal-issue
Posted by: maczrool

Re: iPhone 4 - 30/06/2010 10:38

Anyone getting duplicate emails on their iPhone 4? Every email I get has one that appears normally with the subject and a preview of the message and then underneath I get the same message but without the preview. Both are identical once opened. It's not a problem with the email server because I only get one copy of the message on other devices.

Stu
Posted by: tanstaafl.

Re: iPhone 4 - 30/06/2010 12:00

I would like to hear Ross Wellington's take on this iPhone 4 reception issue.

tanstaafl.
Posted by: drakino

Re: iPhone 4 - 30/06/2010 13:36

Originally Posted By: maczrool
Anyone getting duplicate emails on their iPhone 4? Every email I get has one that appears normally with the subject and a preview of the message and then underneath I get the same message but without the preview. Both are identical once opened. It's not a problem with the email server because I only get one copy of the message on other devices.

What kind of e-mail server is it? POP, IMAP, Exchange (with or without push), etc... I haven't seen the duplicate e-mail issue you describe exactly. I have seen with my IMAP account a situation where it shows a new message with only the subject, then it disappears, and reappears shortly with the full content. It seems I catch it right at a time when it was checking messages and was in the middle of updating things in the background.
Posted by: wfaulk

Re: iPhone 4 - 30/06/2010 14:24

Totally tangentially, what is the IMAP server that you're seeing that behavior on, Tom? Does it happen to be an Exchange server with a Blackberry server running against it?
Posted by: drakino

Re: iPhone 4 - 30/06/2010 17:23

I saw it against a dovecot IMAP server and betas of the iOS 4 builds. I haven't seen it recently though.
Posted by: tfabris

Re: iPhone 4 - 30/06/2010 19:46

Heh.

http://www.engadget.com/2010/06/30/apple-hiring-iphone-antenna-engineers-for-some-reason/
Posted by: maczrool

Re: iPhone 4 - 30/06/2010 20:41

It's a regular POP box. Mine do not go away until I delete them. I can't seem to find anyone else that has experienced this moderately annoying issue.

Stu
Posted by: andym

Re: iPhone 4 - 30/06/2010 20:49

Originally Posted By: tfabris
Heh.


I'm assuming Steve had the last lot sent to a Gulag somewhere.
Posted by: peter

Re: iPhone 4 - 01/07/2010 05:53

El Reg points out that this is the phone whose Wifi didn't work in its own keynote, and that while the official explanation about the Wifi smog in the room is certainly plausible, it's hard not to wonder whether Steve was holding it right...

Peter
Posted by: andy

Re: iPhone 4 - 01/07/2010 05:59

Steve had both phones sat on the desk when the wifi problems first occurred, so he wasn't holding it at all.
Posted by: oliver

Re: iPhone 4 - 01/07/2010 13:50

Originally Posted By: andy
Steve had both phones sat on the desk when the wifi problems first occurred, so he wasn't holding it at all.


I bet the mount / clamp they used to hold the phones to the desk was also holding the phones wrong and shorting out the antenna.
Posted by: hybrid8

Re: iPhone 4 - 01/07/2010 15:04

The iPhone 4 apparently doesn't shoot HD video... At least according to this douche bag... http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2010-06-29/googles-new-droid-x-blows-away-the-iphone/
Posted by: drakino

Re: iPhone 4 - 01/07/2010 16:14

Went to the local Apple Store last night and talked to a genius about the situation. Very friendly guy, and he logged a case for me, and pretty much said that at this point they have nothing they can do as they are waiting on word from engineering. Conveniently, I was there right when a worker was restocking the shelves with more bumpers, so for now I bought one.

Not really happy with the bumper though, as it's back to the iPhone 1 problem of very few 1/8th inch headphone plugs will seat fully. And of course, Apple again forgot to make even their own case work with docks much like on the iPad. I'll be returning it if some future firmware somehow resolves the issue of touching the bottom left.

Anandtech did a nice writeup with actual db signal numbers from the iPhone 4, 3GS and Nexus One (AT&T version).
http://www.anandtech.com/show/3794/the-iphone-4-review/2
Posted by: drakino

Re: iPhone 4 - 02/07/2010 12:32

Apple's formal response.
Posted by: tanstaafl.

Re: iPhone 4 - 02/07/2010 13:38

Originally Posted By: drakino


Uhhh... yeah?

tanstaafl.
Posted by: drakino

Re: iPhone 4 - 02/07/2010 13:42

And a good PR speak translation from Gruber.

I think Apple's formal PR response is just going to make the situation worse, by basically saying "Oh, it's just an issue of how the bars display, we are going to change them instead of addressing the actual problem of people dropping calls or having way slower data service because they held the phone normally."

2010 is shaping up to be the year of smartphone signal issues.
Posted by: andy

Re: iPhone 4 - 02/07/2010 14:37

I'd been hoping that there was going to be a real fix to this. As such I had been avoiding testing the issue too much.

I've just done some proper testing of it, comparing my 4 vs my 3G. I did it in a reasonable 3G signal, both phones (when sat by themselves without me holding them) holding 5 bars for long periods, occasionally dropping to 4 bars.

Either Apple's press release is complete bollocks or my iPhone 4 is faulty.

With both phones sat without being touched the download speed, using a couple of different test tools, varies between 1,500k to 2,800k. It does vary quite a bit, which you would think would make testing difficult.

And it would, if there wasn't such a dramatic drop in performance when the problem is triggered. When I just lightly touch the iSpot (can't believe that isn't want Gizmodo et al are calling it) the download performance drops to 50k-200k.

I get no such drops when I touch, hold or cup my 3G. Any drop that you get is well within the general variability of what you get when not handling either phone.

I really don't give a toss what the signal bars indicate, it is the data throughput that matters and with my iSpot covered it is a ~10th of what it should be on my iPhone 4. For those that are curious when the spot is covered the bars quickly drop to minimum and it typically drops from 3G to GPRS.

And as to "hold it differently" ! I am a right handed person, but despite what the various reports seem to suggest, that doesn't mean I hold my phone in my right hand. When I make calls I hold it in the left hand, when I am using the screen with two hands I hold it in my left and tap with my right. Only when I am using it one handed and using the screen do I hold it right handed.

When held right handed I can avoid touching the iSpot (though it is more natural for me to hold it touching the spot). When I am holding it left handed I can see no way, that I personally, can sensibly avoid touching the iSpot. I want to nestle the left hand corner down in the crease of my palm because it is the most comfortable and secure way that it fits in my hand. Even if I don't tuck the phone into the crease of my palm, I find it very hard to hold the phone securely without touching the spot.

I find it bizarre that this issue was missed and also that Apple don't seem to think that it is something worth fixing. Unless my phone is somehow atypical and that they don't all behave the same way ?

So I guess I am destined for a Genius bar appointment, where I require the outcome to either* be that they demonstrate that my phone is faulty and replace it or give me a free Bumper.

Assuming my phone is not atypical (which at this point seems unlikely), this is such a shame because other than this (very key) issue my iPhone 4 is just a stunning bit of kit.

I'm not angry about this, just very puzzled, again assuming that my phone is "normal".

* there is I guess a third option of me rejecting the phone as not fit for purpose, but I really don't want to consider that option at the moment frown

http://blog.norman.cx/2010/07/02/is-my-iphone-4-faulty-or-is-apples-pr-complete-bollocks/
Posted by: andy

Re: iPhone 4 - 02/07/2010 14:45

It should be said that my tests don't appear to match other people who have tested thoroughly:

http://daringfireball.net/2010/07/iphone_4_3g_performance

I see a 10 fold drop in performance, not the relatively small drop that they see. So maybe my phone is defective in some way.
Posted by: tman

Re: iPhone 4 - 02/07/2010 15:44

The latest conspiracy theory is that Apple intentionally altered the signal strength to bar formula so they'd appear to have a better signal than other phones.

I also heard that Elvis was the programmer responsible for this but he was assisted by a team of Roswell aliens...

Originally Posted By: andy
give me a free Bumper

According to the apparently leaked AppleCare documents, you're not going to be able to get a free bumper case out of them. Also unless you have issues with the iPhone reception when its not actually being held by yourself then it doesn't count as faulty. If you're not happy with this then take it back for a refund...
Posted by: tfabris

Re: iPhone 4 - 02/07/2010 16:16

Originally Posted By: andy
I really don't give a toss what the signal bars indicate, it is the data throughput that matters and with my iSpot covered it is a ~10th of what it should be on my iPhone 4.


I wonder... Is there a chance that they deliberately throttle the data bandwidth based on the number of bars? In other words, could the reported drop in data throughput still possibly be due to a software bug in the bars calculation?

Or maybe the stuff they're saying about the bars calculations is actually an oversimplification of the more complicated issue of baseband frequency switching that some have suspected might be causing the problem.
Posted by: drakino

Re: iPhone 4 - 02/07/2010 16:18

Originally Posted By: andy
I see a 10 fold drop in performance, not the relatively small drop that they see. So maybe my phone is defective in some way.

I'm still at a loss of what to do as well. I was just using the phone at my desk with the bumper case, and still had it drop from 5 bars to 3. Running a speed test again shows that the case is helping a bit, but not a ton. My download speed was cut in half, and upload down to 1/4th the normal speed. Considering how close the tower is to my office, this is going to be much worse elsewhere.
Posted by: andy

Re: iPhone 4 - 02/07/2010 16:25

Originally Posted By: tfabris

Is there a chance that they deliberately throttle the data bandwidth based on the number of bars? In other words, could the reported drop in data throughput still possibly be due to a software bug in the bars calculation?

Or maybe the stuff they're saying about the bars calculations is actually an oversimplification of the more complicated issue of baseband frequency switching that some have suspected might be causing the problem.

I still think that is a possibility, though seeming much less likely now. It seems that once you trigger the issue it takes it 30 seconds or more to recover:

- start a speed test, get 2000k
- touch the iSpot
- speed drops quite rapidly to 50k
- release the "death grip"
- speed stays pegged at 50k
- cancel speed test, run again
- speed still under 150k
- wait 20 seconds for bars to return a bit
- run speed test, back to 2000k
Posted by: andy

Re: iPhone 4 - 02/07/2010 16:38

Another thing that I don't understand is that just occasionally bridging the gap will have zero effect on the download speed. I just just running some more tests and several times I touched the spot but the download still kept screaming along at 2000k+

All very odd.
Posted by: mlord

Re: iPhone 4 - 02/07/2010 16:55

Just out of curiosity, do things improve at all with a small strip of clear tape applied over the iSpot?

I'm wondering how much "physical contact" matters relative to "physical proximity" -- the tape should make that easy to distinguish.

Cheers
Posted by: tfabris

Re: iPhone 4 - 02/07/2010 17:01

Originally Posted By: andy
Another thing that I don't understand is that just occasionally bridging the gap will have zero effect on the download speed. I just just running some more tests and several times I touched the spot but the download still kept screaming along at 2000k+


This would tend to indicate that it is indeed some kind of a software issue, where the system is only throttling the bandwidth (or switching frequencies) after a short hysteresis timeout, based on some perceived indicator of reception issues, rather than actual loss of signal.

I'm really curious to see if the software update takes care of it.
Posted by: tman

Re: iPhone 4 - 02/07/2010 17:06

Originally Posted By: mlord
Just out of curiosity, do things improve at all with a small strip of clear tape applied over the iSpot?

Tom tried a Post It note and that was sufficient to not cause any issues if you touched that spot.
Posted by: andy

Re: iPhone 4 - 02/07/2010 18:03

I tried a bit of electrical insulating tape, which didn't appear to help. A tea towel however was enough to solve the issue. Also a thick rubber band worked.

However I have also seen people report that the Bumper didn't work to solve the issue for them.
Posted by: Dignan

Re: iPhone 4 - 02/07/2010 18:32

Originally Posted By: drakino

I got annoyed by this part of the statement:

Quote:
This is true of iPhone 4, iPhone 3GS, as well as many Droid, Nokia and RIM phones.

That just bugs me. Droid phones? I guess if you have an Android device on another network you don't have this issue.

And here's how I read that statement, if we look at the grammar:

"[the]* iPhone 4 and 3GS have this issue"

"many Droid phones have this issue"

Using this logic, Apple's two latest generations, essentially all the phones they're developing for, have antenna issues, but you can buy a Droid phone that doesn't.

I'm just saying, perhaps Apple's PR isn't as great at attention to detail as other teams in the company (except for the antenna team - ooo burn!).


* I out and out REFUSE to refer to it as "iPhone," as in "iPhone 4 has great reception." It's "THE iPhone 4 has great reception." It's not a f**king person, damnit! Steve sounds like a totaly d-bag every time he says that.
Posted by: peter

Re: iPhone 4 - 02/07/2010 19:16

Originally Posted By: Dignan
I'm just saying, perhaps Apple's PR isn't as great at attention to detail as other teams in the company

I got a chuckle out of "Since this mistake has been present since the original iPhone, this software update will also be available for the iPhone 3GS and iPhone 3G."

Peter
Posted by: gbeer

Re: iPhone 4 - 02/07/2010 22:00

The infamous barPhone was reported to have been disguised with a wrapper. I could see Apple not recognizing the scope of the problem it that was commonly, how the prototypes were handled.
Posted by: andy

Re: iPhone 4 - 04/07/2010 15:54

Well I took my iPhone 4 to the Genius Bar at the Apple Store today.

You can go and read all the gory details if you want, but in summary: my iPhone appears to be typical, a Bumper solves the issue, no free Bumper offered, customer left angry and frustrated.

I'm sure everyone is through bored with me going on about this, so I shall try and shut up about it and wait to see what the software update brings. And no doubt next time I'm in an Apple store I'll probably cave in and buy a Bumper frown
Posted by: wfaulk

Re: iPhone 4 - 04/07/2010 16:01

No, I, for one, am interested. How long do you have to return the phone? Is the update going to come out before that?

Personally, I think I'd return it on principle, even if I were to just buy it again if and when they fix the problem.
Posted by: hybrid8

Re: iPhone 4 - 04/07/2010 16:08

As Bitt suggested, I'd return it. It's the clearest message Apple is going to get on this issue.
Posted by: andy

Re: iPhone 4 - 04/07/2010 16:54

Being in the UK I have the might of our much derided, expensive consumer laws behind (by people in countries with little consumer protection in the country). I don't expect to have too much trouble returning it if I choose to if the update doesn't resolve it.

I did check with the store manager if he thought I'd have any hassle. He said 'come in and ask for me', and gave me his business card. I have no reason to doubt his sincerity.
Posted by: andy

Re: iPhone 4 - 04/07/2010 17:19

I hadn't considered returning it as a temporary measure, it seemed like a very final action to me.

It would mean losing some money though as every day I can't sell my 3G it is going down in value.

I'll give it some thought.
Posted by: drakino

Re: iPhone 4 - 04/07/2010 18:31

I'm still debating what to do myself. My 3GS doesn't have much resale value currently due to some glass damage, so for me it's not too much of a concern if I go back. I would however miss the iPhone 4 features, as it's really grown on me already. I have a trip coming up, and I think I'll make a final decision on returning or keeping it after that.

I am going to return the bumper case though. I can't plug the iPhone 4 into my temporary speakers in the car with the bumper on, nor can I plug it in via the dock connector. Plus it's nearly caused me to drop the phone already, due to the rubber gripping the inside of my pants pocket as I'm removing it.
Posted by: tanstaafl.

Re: iPhone 4 - 04/07/2010 18:44

Originally Posted By: drakino
I am going to return the bumper case though.

Don't be too hasty -- there's a guy in Surrey, UK, that might want to buy it from you... smile

tanstaafl.
Posted by: DWallach

Re: iPhone 4 - 05/07/2010 12:32

Speaking of iPhone 3G (not 3GS): Has anybody else noticed that things have gotten decidedly slower with iOS 4? Yesterday, I tried using the camera, and it took something like 30 seconds to actually be ready to take a picture, by which time the thing I wanted to shoot was long gone.

I'm sure it's much better with a 3GS or 4, but it's still sad that Apple hasn't managed to keep up the performance on their older models. I'm hoping that the Android people do better with this sort of thing as their platform evolves. Certainly, they seem to have made real strides in performance from Android 2.1 to 2.2.
Posted by: andy

Re: iPhone 4 - 05/07/2010 12:40

My 3G definitely has some sluggishness on iOS 4.0 in some areas, some of the time. Some things seemed to be a bit quicker too.

Some people have reported that it is faster after a clean setup rather than a restore. Not that that is very useful, if you actually have data and settings that you want to keep frown

I've just mailed mine off to a recycling company, which I guess means I'm keeping my iPhone 4 for now.
Posted by: Cris

Re: iPhone 4 - 06/07/2010 06:55

For those in the UK, quidco.com are offering £100 cashback on the 12 month £15 iPhone simplicity tariff. If you are a low minutes user like me then that is quite the bargain, £80 for the year overall!

It will mean the iPhone4 will cost me £580 for a year, not too bad I don't think, especially with the added bonus of keeping my number and being SIM free at the end.

Cheers

Cris.
Posted by: tfabris

Re: iPhone 4 - 06/07/2010 17:54

Originally Posted By: andy
My 3G definitely has some sluggishness on iOS 4.0 in some areas, some of the time. Some things seemed to be a bit quicker too.

Some people have reported that it is faster after a clean setup rather than a restore. Not that that is very useful, if you actually have data and settings that you want to keep frown


I've noticed increased sluggishness with my 3G phone with each successive update. The update to iOS4 made things only incrementally worse than the prior update, but I do get the feeling that they are a hair worse rather than better. Note that I did a full clean wipe of the phone instead of a restore (details of that fiasco I think are higher up in this very thread).

Some things I've noticed about my 3G phone that has helped me speed it up occasionally:

- If the phone completely locks up to the point where it seems to be unusable, sometimes pulling out the SIM card, blowing on it Nintendo-style, and re-inserting it, helps. I think there's a processor thread that's constantly checking the SIM card, and if there's intermittent connectivity to the SIM, you'll get that thread locking up and causing other dependent threads to lock. This, by the way, is coincident with a related symptom: Sometimes my phone would just say "No Sim".

- There's a free app called "Scan" that will free up RAM on the phone. Running that occasionally helps. For instance if I run the app before I run the TomTom navigation app, then the user input prompts on TomTom are more responsive (though still too slow for my tastes).
Posted by: andy

Re: iPhone 4 - 06/07/2010 18:28

I had the opposite experience, each update over the last 2 years made my 3G feel faster (in some cases measurably so).

Excluding 4.0 that is, most stuff got slower then.

TomTom was always painfully slow on the 3G though. TomTom is just great on the iPhone 4, faster than any dedicated TomTom unit.
Posted by: drakino

Re: iPhone 4 - 07/07/2010 19:50

Looks like the iPhone 5 has already been leaked:
Posted by: wfaulk

Re: iPhone 4 - 07/07/2010 20:17

Heh. I guess we're a long way from when Motorola thought they had to put a fake antenna on the MicroTAC.
Posted by: tanstaafl.

Re: iPhone 4 - 08/07/2010 00:07

Originally Posted By: drakino
Looks like the iPhone 5 has already been leaked:


iPhone 5-A with optimized reception.

tanstaafl.
Posted by: Folsom

Re: iPhone 4 - 08/07/2010 10:45

Originally Posted By: wfaulk
Heh. I guess we're a long way from when Motorola thought they had to put a fake antenna on the MicroTAC.

Why do you think there was a fake antenna on the MicroTAC?
Posted by: wfaulk

Re: iPhone 4 - 08/07/2010 11:29

Because a solid plastic rod is not an antenna?
Posted by: Folsom

Re: iPhone 4 - 08/07/2010 11:53

There was a wire in the rod. The antenna was two parts: a coil at the base was the antenna when the rod was pushed in, and when the antenna was extended the coil coupled to the rod, so the rod was the radiating element.
Posted by: wfaulk

Re: iPhone 4 - 08/07/2010 13:13

I've had phones like that, but I'm pretty sure that that was not the case with the MicroTAC.
Posted by: Roger

Re: iPhone 4 - 08/07/2010 14:17

Originally Posted By: Folsom
Why do you think there was a fake antenna on the MicroTAC?


Because this (admittedly random) website says so.
Posted by: andym

Re: iPhone 4 - 08/07/2010 14:37

Originally Posted By: Roger
Because this (admittedly random) website says so.

If Nige (my old digital electronics lecturer) says so, then I believe him!
Posted by: peter

Re: iPhone 4 - 08/07/2010 20:27

"A Greater Manchester University" is possibly an even cheekier slogan than the one on the ads at Cambridge railway station that say "Welcome to Cambridge, home of Anglia Ruskin University".

Peter
Posted by: wfaulk

Re: iPhone 4 - 08/07/2010 21:15

One would assume they meant this usage of "greater":
Quote:
consisting of a central city together with adjacent areas that are naturally or administratively connected with it
Posted by: Folsom

Re: iPhone 4 - 08/07/2010 23:00

Originally Posted By: andym
Originally Posted By: Roger
Because this (admittedly random) website says so.

If Nige (my old digital electronics lecturer) says so, then I believe him!

Don't believe him. I worked there in the 90's, and when the antenna was down a lot of work had to be done to ensure the antenna didn't radiate into the phone due to non-infinite isolation between the coil and whip.
Posted by: peter

Re: iPhone 4 - 09/07/2010 06:51

Yes, "Greater Manchester" is the formal name of the county containing Salford. It's a play on words. I'm just saying it's a bit of a cheeky one, considering their long-standing competition and rivalry with "Manchester University", which is a separate institution.

Peter
Posted by: altman

Re: iPhone 4 - 10/07/2010 20:00

Originally Posted By: gbeer
Originally Posted By: altman
Originally Posted By: gbeer
So why didn't they make that "tap to focus" function work for still photos too.


Uhhh, it always has. It's only new for video....


Should this work on a 3G iPhone with the new os?


3G doesn't have an autofocus camera, so that's why it doesn't work there. 3GS/4 have AF cameras.
Posted by: altman

Re: iPhone 4 - 10/07/2010 20:05

Originally Posted By: drakino

Any phone is going to have at least some minor signal loss if the antennas are covered up. That part I understand, and am fine with. Simple concept really, cover up the antenna, and it has worse reception. Some loss is to be expected, and most phones when held reasonably do just fine.

Some phones appear to have a design flaw that places the antennas in a spot that when held in a common, but not covering way results in a significant loss of signal. This includes the iPhone 4, and potentially the Nokia E71 based on the performance shown in one of those videos. My opinion on this is lines up more with you in that I find it's a bad design.


The thing is, candybar phones have the antennas as far away from the head as possible to reduce the SAR values; that means the antennas are up against the hand (which has a higher SAR limit than your head as I remember). One of the PhDs who commented on the issue noted this.

Multiple antenna phones tend to only receive on multiple antennas, so more antennas do not necessarily help with these issues for uplink degradation.

(speaking personally, obviously)
Posted by: altman

Re: iPhone 4 - 10/07/2010 20:12

Originally Posted By: peter
El Reg points out that this is the phone whose Wifi didn't work in its own keynote, and that while the official explanation about the Wifi smog in the room is certainly plausible, it's hard not to wonder whether Steve was holding it right...


Pretty sure some site (anandtech?) noted wifi reception improved when you held the phone...

But yes, it was WiFi smog. I heard the full detail and the number of base stations in the room was accurate (they could even identify how many were MiFi's by the MAC address prefixes). The "solution" (apart from shaming people into turning points off) was kinda sweet too, involving taking all the room's official APs offline and reconfiguring them at opposite ends of the wifi spectrum, then bringing up the demo AP in the middle immediately before use, and before any clients had a chance to associate with the offical AP network.

I recall that at the time, some people commented that Google had the same issue with their demos at the Google IO conference earlier that year. Really, MiFi's and similar need to look at the surrounding wifi environment and dynamically reduce their TX power if it's keynote-busy. WiFi was just never designed to work like that.

As to why the 3GS worked better then the 4, my guess is the 3GS was on 11g and maybe that deals with insane amounts of interference better than 11n? Just a guess though, WiFi has never behaved as well as the label says it should wink
Posted by: drakino

Re: iPhone 4 - 14/07/2010 15:49

Anyone know if AT&T keeps published information on what frequencies they use in different parts of the country? In Portland, Seattle and Redmond, I can't replicate the massive speed drop by holding the phone in my left hand like I could down in Austin. As far as bars, I only managed to drop it from 5 to 4 once in Portland, nowhere near the 5-1 I could do 2 blocks from a tower in Austin.

Also not seeing any fast HSUPA uplink speeds in these areas compared to Austin, I wonder if somehow that has anything to do with it. I'm just more confused now.
Posted by: wfaulk

Re: iPhone 4 - 14/07/2010 16:39

Consumer Reports' test involved a signal generator in a Faraday cage, and they claim that they tested a lot of different frequencies. I don't have a subscription, so the full article, assuming that there is one with more detail than the publicly accessible article and video, might contain information about frequencies. If anyone here has a CR subscription, maybe you could check?
Posted by: drakino

Re: iPhone 4 - 15/07/2010 01:28

Well, guess we shall see what Apple says Friday.
Posted by: Cris

Re: iPhone 4 - 15/07/2010 08:25

Well my iPhone4 just arrived.

Basically here at home if I have it in my hand I loose 3G. Can't say I get anything but a good 3G signal here, I can basically see the mast on top of a tower block close by.

It's funny as Nicola got one the other week and hers doesn't seem to be suffering too much. I suppose I'll have to wait until tomorrow to see what is actually being done about it.

Cheers

Cris.
Posted by: andym

Re: iPhone 4 - 15/07/2010 14:06

Originally Posted By: Cris
Can't say I get anything but a good 3G signal here, I can basically see the mast on top of a tower block close by.

How far away is the tower block and how high up is it? Given the vertical radiation patterns of these aerials, it's quite possible your phone's not associated with that mast.
Posted by: Dignan

Re: iPhone 4 - 15/07/2010 14:12

Originally Posted By: drakino
Well, guess we shall see what Apple says Friday.

If they say anything that isn't in keeping with the rest of their public messages I'll be amazed. I have no doubt they'll deny everything or try to spin it somehow.

By the way, if I hear one more time the phrase "the iPhone 4 actually has better reception than previous iPhones" I'm going to scream. Yes, it does, but THAT ISN'T THE F'ING POINT! Both things can be true: it gets great reception, AND it has reception problems when held in a certain place. I've heard this statement a dozen times and it's driving me nuts.
Posted by: drakino

Re: iPhone 4 - 15/07/2010 15:04

Originally Posted By: Dignan
If they say anything that isn't in keeping with the rest of their public messages I'll be amazed. I have no doubt they'll deny everything or try to spin it somehow.

I highly doubt they would be organizing a full press event with invites for various organizations to come to their campus to just say "Nothing is wrong". Apple has to get out in front of this issue fast with all the coverage (including Letterman making a top 10 joke of it). This is the first time I can think of that Apple is holding an event like this outside of announcing a new product or software update. It will be a damage control event for sure, but with actual action in some meaningful way. At a minimum, I'm expecting free bumper cases.

Why do I say this? Close to 10 years of being an Apple customer has taught me that even when they do slip up, they act to fix the problems even if they initially deny them. I don't see that changing now.

I will say though if their solution is free bumper cases, I'll probably take the phone back. As much as I like the device overall, I keep going back to the 911 call where the operator couldn't hear my friend making the call. I simply cannot support the product with my money with such a serious design flaw, and the bumper for me just swaps that issue for others. Much like I refused to pay for the defective Vista OS, or will refuse to buy another 360 if my current one fails, I'll refuse to keep this generation of iPhone until the flaw is fixed. At least that means I'll only have to wait another year for a new phone, instead of 3 for a new OS, or 5 for a new design of a console
Posted by: tman

Re: iPhone 4 - 15/07/2010 16:47

4.0.1.

Bigger bars!
Posted by: Cris

Re: iPhone 4 - 15/07/2010 17:07

Yea, bigger bars but less of them!!!

When I first started hearing of the reception issues I just thought to myself it's just hype from all the Apple haters out there, but it is going to be a serious problem for me I think. I've made a couple of calls from my office today, all of which had breaks up but no drop outs. I can't remember ever having connection issues from this seat with the 3G in the past.

On the positive side what an amazing device, it feels so good in my hand. If you told me it was made of solid glass and runs on magic I think I'd believe you smile

Cheers

Cris.
Posted by: Cris

Re: iPhone 4 - 15/07/2010 17:08

Originally Posted By: andym

How far away is the tower block and how high up is it? Given the vertical radiation patterns of these aerials, it's quite possible your phone's not associated with that mast.


Trust me I know it is, I fitted the telemetry lines to it. It's line of sight to my house, the only other O2 masts are on the other side of the valley.

Cheers

Cris.
Posted by: wfaulk

Re: iPhone 4 - 15/07/2010 18:08

You have to install iPhone updates through a computer?
Posted by: andy

Re: iPhone 4 - 15/07/2010 18:15

Originally Posted By: wfaulk
You have to install iPhone updates through a computer?

Yes.
Posted by: andy

Re: iPhone 4 - 15/07/2010 18:18

Originally Posted By: Cris

When I first started hearing of the reception issues I just thought to myself it's just hype from all the Apple haters out there, but it is going to be a serious problem for me I think. I've made a couple of calls from my office today, all of which had breaks up but no drop outs. I can't remember ever having connection issues from this seat with the 3G in the past.

You mean when touching the spot or when not touching the spot ?

If not touching the spot then you almost certainly have an issue not connected with the touch-the-spot reception issue. There are quite a few people on the O2 forum with general reception issues that seem to get resolved by a replacement SIM or phone (usually the SIM it appears).

Everything I've seen confirms to me that the iPhone 4 has much better reception than the 3G normally when not touching the spot, particularly in dodgy signal areas.
Posted by: tman

Re: iPhone 4 - 15/07/2010 18:25

Originally Posted By: Cris
Trust me I know it is, I fitted the telemetry lines to it. It's line of sight to my house, the only other O2 masts are on the other side of the valley.

Not for you since you have first hand experience of where the tower is but Ofcoms tower site finder tool may be useful. The interface is clunky and annoying to use but you can find out where the towers are near you, who runs them, what frequency and power.
Posted by: tman

Re: iPhone 4 - 15/07/2010 18:29

The changes in 4.0.1 are only listed as "Improves the formula to determine how many bars of signal strength to display". What is interesting is that the baseband firmware hasn't changed at all. The only difference is the application side.

The iPad got a small upgrade from 3.2 to 3.2.1 today as well but nothing is listed regarding the 3G radio. No changes for the original iPhone.
Posted by: hybrid8

Re: iPhone 4 - 15/07/2010 18:31

Originally Posted By: wfaulk
You have to install iPhone updates through a computer?


That's the small down side. The up side is that Apple release updates and that everyone with an iPhone can download and install them.

The biggest downside is that none of the updates ever fix the design issues with the base apps. wink
Posted by: andy

Re: iPhone 4 - 15/07/2010 18:37

It really is about time Apple started using a delta patch system of some sort, rather than the whole image approach. It would appear that 4.0.1 is a crazy 579MB download !
Posted by: tman

Re: iPhone 4 - 15/07/2010 18:39

Originally Posted By: andy
It really is about time Apple started using a delta patch system of some sort, rather than the whole image approach. It would appear that 4.0.1 is a crazy 579MB download !

They did have patches right at the start. You could go from 1.0.0 to 1.0.1 to 1.0.2 via patches or via the full restore images.
Posted by: drakino

Re: iPhone 4 - 15/07/2010 19:49

The delta patches also failed pretty badly at times, especially when applied to a jailbroken phone. With how popular the iPhone is, it's probably cheaper for Apple to pay slightly higher bandwidth costs vs the support costs of the delta method. On the downside, it means people stuck with satellite Internet usually can't get the patches due to daily caps of 500mb on some of the higher end plans.
Posted by: andy

Re: iPhone 4 - 15/07/2010 20:07

It must certainly drastically reduce their QA matrix to stick with a monolithic image wink
Posted by: andym

Re: iPhone 4 - 15/07/2010 20:32

Originally Posted By: Cris
Originally Posted By: andym

How far away is the tower block and how high up is it? Given the vertical radiation patterns of these aerials, it's quite possible your phone's not associated with that mast.


Trust me I know it is, I fitted the telemetry lines to it. It's line of sight to my house, the only other O2 masts are on the other side of the valley.

Cheers

Cris.

That doesn't mean anything. The vertical beamwidth of those panel aerials is very tight. Sometimes only 5-10 degrees. If that tower is more than a few stories high you're looking at quite a distance before you're in the aerials 'sweet spot'. With aerial gain it's quite possible you're associated to another tower that's further away, possibly not even line of site, but due to the gain of the aerial (up to 13 dB on some types) you get a stronger signal and that's the one phone choses to associate to.

You can observe this effect (albeit slightly exaggerated) in Piccadilly Gardens. The Sunley building has all the major providers up there, but because they're on the top and the building is 30 stories high, the surrounding area is a blackspot for cellphone coverage because the aerials are actually firing off into the distance and the signals from other base stations further away are weaker and also affected by multipath problems due to building clutter in the locality.
Posted by: Cris

Re: iPhone 4 - 16/07/2010 06:18

Originally Posted By: andy
You mean when touching the spot or when not touching the spot ?


I am quite surprised that all I need to do is touch the bottom left hand side of the phone and the signal dies off quickly. I certainly didn't see this on Nicola's iPhone 4. I don't even need to grip it in my hand tightly, just have it on the desk with a good signal, touch the bottom left and a few seconds later I am down at 2 bars on the GSM network.

I wouldn't be a problem to be honest, but the call quality is much lower then on the 3G, callers have a hard tie hearing me and me them. I'm going to have a go at a couple of the suggestions with the SIM card to see if that helps at all.

Cheers

Cris.
Posted by: Tim

Re: iPhone 4 - 16/07/2010 10:37

Originally Posted By: hybrid8
Originally Posted By: wfaulk
You have to install iPhone updates through a computer?


That's the small down side. The up side is that Apple release updates and that everyone with an iPhone can download and install them.

The biggest downside is that none of the updates ever fix the design issues with the base apps. wink

The biggest downside is needing to use iTunes to apply the updates.
Posted by: Cris

Re: iPhone 4 - 16/07/2010 15:43

So there is a problem with the iPhone 4, how ever the solution is to issue free bits of plastic to every user rather than redesign something that works properly.

If it needs a strip of plastic to work, why doesn't it come with that strip glued in place. One thing I love about this phone is the cool way it looks and feels in the hand, I have never used any form of case on my iPhone and I had hoped I wouldn't have to start now.

Oh well, it's a good job I love this phone so much. My guess to the very low 1.7% return rate is that everyone else working on it at Apple has done such a good job, that despite a pretty big flaw people are willing to live with it if they get to keep their phones.

Cheers

Cris.
Posted by: tman

Re: iPhone 4 - 16/07/2010 16:11

Originally Posted By: Cris
So there is a problem with the iPhone 4, how ever the solution is to issue free bits of plastic to every user rather than redesign something that works properly.

If it needs a strip of plastic to work, why doesn't it come with that strip glued in place. One thing I love about this phone is the cool way it looks and feels in the hand, I have never used any form of case on my iPhone and I had hoped I wouldn't have to start now.

Keep the old internal antennas. Change the metal band to a solid cosmetic one instead. Problem solved. iPhone 4.5! wink

Originally Posted By: Cris
Oh well, it's a good job I love this phone so much. My guess to the very low 1.7% return rate is that everyone else working on it at Apple has done such a good job, that despite a pretty big flaw people are willing to live with it if they get to keep their phones.

The low return rate is also because Apple gave indications that it would be fixed by a software update which only just came out. Its whether the return rate goes up now that the fairly useless conference is over that is the important thing.
Posted by: drakino

Re: iPhone 4 - 16/07/2010 16:40

Well, mine is going back once I return from vacation and I'll put my 3GS back into service. While it's probably true that the iPhone 4 is dropping less calls, they didn't address the issue of reduced quality or speed, to the point where the other person on the call can't hear the iPhone 4 user. Technically not a dropped call, so their stats don't count it as a problem. If it only impacted data, I wouldn't mind too much. But again my thoughts drift back to the 911 call, and I don't want to be in a position where my natural way of holding the device costs valuable time when something very serious is happening.

They did talk about return rates being lower then the 3GS, but at this point every iPhone 4 owner is still in their valid return period, so it could go up. I'll be curious to see if they talk about these numbers more down the road.

The solution for now will be free bumpers, or some other cases. I'm sure some of the 3rd party case makers will enjoy that boost. I just don't have a ton of time to wait and see how the others will work though, as I fall out of the 30 day return period at the end of next week. I already know I don't want a bumper due to the other issues it introduces for me in my use of the device.

Some interesting things out of the Q&A:
Quote:
Q: After September 30th, is it because after then you expect people to buy a free case?
Steve: It’s so we can reevaluate this in September, I have no idea what solutions may come up.

If they have been working rapidly on an actual fix to the iSpot on the antenna band, September seems reasonable for a revision B of the hardware that may fix the issue. I'm betting they will talk more about it at the annual iPod release event around that time. Until they have an actual fix they can show, odds are they will remain silent and point to the free cases as an interm solution.

Quote:
Q from me: how does touching the corner with a single finger seem to cause this issue? It’s not just a grip, it can just happen by touching a single finger.
A from Bob: Your body is a pretty effective signal absorber. When you make contact with that phone, its performance in contact with you is less than its freespace performance. It’s a way to attenuate the signal by some amount.

Between this Q&A answer, and the earlier part of the event showing death grip impact (covering a ton of the phone) on other devices, it's clear they were still being a bit dodgy on the iSpot. I understand covering the device is a problem and that has never been the issue for me. It's been that one tiny spot placed in a area where I almost always touch the phone when using it.

The Q&A had some other tidbits, readable over here. It's good to see them be somewhat frank about certain things, and overall I'm pretty impressed with the response so far. While I'm returning my phone, it hasn't diminished my high praise of the company much. Apple still stands as one of the few public companies out there that does put the consumer first, and not wall street, enterprise, or others.
Posted by: andy

Re: iPhone 4 - 16/07/2010 16:44

I found the whole thing deeply unsatisfying for two reasons.

All their comparisons with dropped bars were against other brands of smartphones. I don't give a toss how well the phone works when I hold it compared to some other crappy phone. I care that it doesn't work as well as my 3G did in the same situation.

Secondly, stop focusing on bars already. We all know that the bars are completely unreliable at indicating actual performance. I don't care how many bars my phone is showing, I care that I am getting a reliable fast data download. It is the 90% drop in data speed that I see that troubles me not the lack of bars ffs.

It is just lucky that I don't make many calls and use it on wifi 90% of the time, otherwise it might have been going back in exchange for a 3GS.

I am pleased that they updated the bars in 4.0.1, at least I get some vaguely useful indication when it would be a good time to avoid the spot.
Posted by: drakino

Re: iPhone 4 - 16/07/2010 17:44

http://www.apple.com/apple-events/july-2010/

Video already up, along with tons of other info.
Posted by: Dignan

Re: iPhone 4 - 16/07/2010 18:18

Originally Posted By: drakino
While it's probably true that the iPhone 4 is dropping less calls, they didn't address the issue of reduced quality or speed, to the point where the other person on the call can't hear the iPhone 4 user. Technically not a dropped call, so their stats don't count it as a problem.

Isn't this the exact thing I was talking about in my previous post? (BTW, I'm not directing this at you, just at Apple)

I said I hate when people dismiss this problem with "the iPhone 4 actually gets better reception than previous iPhones." That's what they said here about dropped calls.

I don't know of anyone in the media who has claimed the iPhone 4 doesn't get better reception than the 3GS. This isn't the point! The point is there's this one little problem, and they have to address THAT, not give us spin (did I not say there would be spin?) about how great the reception is.

Oh, and I think that Steve's claim that "no one will buy a large phone" is one of his least accurate predictions yet. I don't think the Droid X will sell in iPhone numbers, but no other phone does. Clearly some people want a phone that size.

*edit*
But you were right, Tom. They did somewhat address this as an actual problem. The free bumpers are clearly the cheapest solution if they did admit there was a problem.

However, it did seem like the entire press conference boils down to "our phone is awesome and way better than our last phone...here's a free bumper for that thing you think is wrong."
Posted by: wfaulk

Re: iPhone 4 - 16/07/2010 19:13

What happens if you short between the two sides of the spot? Does it attenuate then?

I'm thinking that it's not meatbag attenuation, but detuning of the antenna because it suddenly becomes much longer when your skin provides a conductance point between the two elements.

If you could run a long piece of wire between the two sides, such that there was almost nothing that could possibly interfere with the signal strength at the antenna, and it still causes a problem, then that would reliably disprove the meatbag theory. Maybe try with a capacitor, too.

Maybe the reason that some people are having problems when others aren't is that some people's hands are sweatier than others.
Posted by: wfaulk

Re: iPhone 4 - 16/07/2010 19:20

Also, speaking of other phones:

What is the deal with putting the antenna on the bottom of the phone?!? I complained bitterly about that when I was still putting up with my Crapberry. I had no idea it was so common.
Posted by: andy

Re: iPhone 4 - 16/07/2010 19:37

Originally Posted By: wfaulk

Maybe the reason that some people are having problems when others aren't is that some people's hands are sweatier than others.

I can trigger the issue with the lightest touch when my finger tip is absolutely bone dry.
Posted by: andy

Re: iPhone 4 - 16/07/2010 19:39

Originally Posted By: wfaulk

What is the deal with putting the antenna on the bottom of the phone?!? I complained bitterly about that when I was still putting up with my Crapberry. I had no idea it was so common.

Supposedly it allows them to run the radio at higher power. The FCC tests for maximum radiator are measured with the phone held against the head, where the measurement takes place where the users brain would be. So putting the antenna on the lower rear maximises the power they can use and stay under the limit.

Whether that is actually true or not I don't know, but it seems to make sense.
Posted by: andym

Re: iPhone 4 - 16/07/2010 19:55

Has someone tried sticking a bit of sellotape across the iSpot, or possibly all the way round (minus the various connector/speaker/mic holes etc.)? Does it make a difference?

Based on the initial murmurs regarding signal problems, I picked up a bumper when I bought the phone, so I can't really comment on the problems. But I can replicate the attenuation fault with the bumper off.
Posted by: andy

Re: iPhone 4 - 16/07/2010 20:06

I tried insulating tape and that didn't resolve the issue.
Posted by: andym

Re: iPhone 4 - 16/07/2010 22:19

Just watched the stream of the press conference. That isn't the same Steve Jobs who was at WWDC.
Posted by: drakino

Re: iPhone 4 - 16/07/2010 22:57

Originally Posted By: Dignan
Oh, and I think that Steve's claim that "no one will buy a large phone" is one of his least accurate predictions yet. I don't think the Droid X will sell in iPhone numbers, but no other phone does. Clearly some people want a phone that size.

I don't think his comment was aimed at the Droid X or Evo. Those are only slightly bigger and still easy to wrap your hand around. I think it was more aimed at the Dell Streak and other "small tablets" or whatever people call them. Since it's got a phone too, that's probably the "hummer phones" he was referring to.
Posted by: Dignan

Re: iPhone 4 - 17/07/2010 02:35

Originally Posted By: drakino
Originally Posted By: Dignan
Oh, and I think that Steve's claim that "no one will buy a large phone" is one of his least accurate predictions yet. I don't think the Droid X will sell in iPhone numbers, but no other phone does. Clearly some people want a phone that size.

I don't think his comment was aimed at the Droid X or Evo. Those are only slightly bigger and still easy to wrap your hand around. I think it was more aimed at the Dell Streak and other "small tablets" or whatever people call them. Since it's got a phone too, that's probably the "hummer phones" he was referring to.

I seriously doubt that's what he was referring to. Steve addresses the competition, and that's the Droid X, EVO 4G, and the Galaxy phones. You don't think he considers a 4.3" screen to be just as absurdly large as a 5"?

Besides, I don't think anyone expects the Streak to be a huge seller. That one is definitely a novelty phone, but I give Dell credit for putting it out there.
Posted by: hybrid8

Re: iPhone 4 - 19/07/2010 20:06

Other phones simply don't have issues with their antennas and reception. wink

Especially Samsung
Posted by: wfaulk

Re: iPhone 4 - 19/07/2010 21:09

All phones and all RF antennas have problems when large sacks of water surround them. I don't think anyone is arguing that point. It's a straw man that Apple set up to attack.

That Samsung phone video doesn't show anything other than the fact that the bars go down when she covered half the side of the phone with her finger. You and I both know that bars don't mean shit. I've often had max bars and no connectivity to speak of, and zero bars and perfectly fine connectivity.

Videos of the iPhone clearly show a light touch on the iSpot causes data transmission to come to a halt. (One example of many.) This is, again, clearly a different issue.
Posted by: hybrid8

Re: iPhone 4 - 19/07/2010 21:26

It's all the same issue. The only difference is that with the iPhone you have exposed metal making for very easy conductance bridging that black gap over the skin.

The Samsung has a magic sweet spot that is also very easy to cover and/or bridge if holding the phone in one hand (left hand).

There are plenty of reports of people touching the iPhone 4 without dropping the call while still dropping bars. There are plenty of reports of other phones dropping calls or with insanely crap reception.

Is the iPhone 4 perfect? Not by a long shot. My only point is that this issue is massively overhyped. Even taking into account it's Apple we're talking about, it's still all blown way overboard.

I do think that Apple played the best card possible this past week by deflecting the issue off as an industry-wide one, even if their design is the most susceptible. They could have done a better job and perhaps avoided some of the overhype by warning about possible issues framed as a "trade-off" of the new design at WWDC. But that's not characteristically Apple and to assume for a second they'd even consider having done that is absurd.

I think this story will not soon be forgotten, even though the issue is not likely to affect the next generation of products. I don't think it's going to soil the iPhone the same way as the Newton's early handwriting recognition - it was vastly improved in later versions, and to this day, I still think the Newton had better handwriting support that anything else since (especially if you compare processing power and other attributes across platforms).
Posted by: wfaulk

Re: iPhone 4 - 19/07/2010 21:51

Show me another phone that completely interrupts data access by the touch of a finger on a particular spot on the case, and I'll show you another phone that has a horrible defect.

Originally Posted By: hybrid8
It's all the same issue. The only difference is that with the iPhone you have exposed metal making for very easy conductance bridging that black gap over the skin.

As opposed to the only somewhat harder "conductance bridging" on other phones of completely removing the case to get at any conductive thing attached to the antenna?

Originally Posted By: hybrid8
There are plenty of reports of people touching the iPhone 4 without dropping the call

There are plenty of reports of people getting rear-ended in a Pinto without the gas tank exploding into flames. That must mean that it doesn't happen, right?

Originally Posted By: hybrid8
the issue is not likely to affect the next generation of products

Oh, Apple's going to resolve that industry-wide problem, then?
Posted by: hybrid8

Re: iPhone 4 - 19/07/2010 22:10

You don't think that in the same location another phone can be attenuated and drop a connection? Umm, ok.

It's an issue, but not the same as the Pinto. It's an issue comparable to driving a Porsche or a Ferrari. Some people just won't be able to handle them and they're not appropriate for all roads.

Now, please don't bring up the other bogus car analogies like the Audi acceleration and Toyota acceleration and braking issues.

Isn't the issue with other phones a capacitive one? I might be getting the terminology wrong though.

I'm not sure why you think Apple is going to solve an industry-wide issue. They'l solve it for their product. I simply think they're going to come out ahead of the industry in the next rev, like they do in pretty much every other facet of their entire product line. Seriously, the iPhone sucks. It does. But there's still nothing else even half as good out there - and I'm being so generous here to the other platforms.

Here's a case Apple will not likely offer - even though it will probably prevent the antenna bridging.
Posted by: drakino

Re: iPhone 4 - 19/07/2010 22:29

Originally Posted By: hybrid8
There are plenty of reports of people touching the iPhone 4 without dropping the call while still dropping bars. There are plenty of reports of other phones dropping calls or with insanely crap reception.

I'd actually prefer if the phone did drop the call, instead of hanging on letting me hear but not be able to talk due to the spot being touched. That's the ultimate reason my iPhone 4 is going back. Its kinda critical for an emergency operator to be able to hear you.

(in before the Bruno/Bitt nitpick thread death spiral with 15 more back and forth posts :-)
Posted by: hybrid8

Re: iPhone 4 - 19/07/2010 22:55

Tom, I agree, your issue definitely sucks and it's probably even more infuriating. I've been dealing with my own set of infuriating issues these past few days, including some phone-based ones, however VOIP based.

I'm glad Apple was called out on this issue, since it's an inherent problem with the design they've chosen, even if it is manageable for many (even most?) people. However, IMO, it's overblown and what's really irked me more is the holier than-thou attitudes of other manufacturers. I will say it's uncharacteristic of Apple to mention other manufacturers by name - at least to this degree.

Anyway, if the price were right I'd pick up an iPhone 4 in a heart beat. The fabric on the glove I normally wear on my left hand probably woudn't work to solve the antenna issue, but I'm sure the rhinestones would take care of that.
Posted by: tanstaafl.

Re: iPhone 4 - 20/07/2010 00:11

Originally Posted By: hybrid8
this issue is massively overhyped.

Overhyped? You don't think that having your data transfer rate drop by a factor of 10 when you pick up the phone is worth a bit of discussion? And that Jobs saying "Oh, they all do that..." is an adequate response?

If anything, i don't think that it has been "hyped" enough!

tanstaafl.
Posted by: hybrid8

Re: iPhone 4 - 20/07/2010 00:17

When you take into account what the likely real number of affected people is, then yes, it's overhyped. They've sold 3 million units already. If this was a case that affected even 10% of customers, reports would be even more widespread than they are now. It is being hyped as if it affects all customers all the time.

The issue is a significant one - for those people affected by it. The same issue, though not by touching the antenna directly, affects other phones from other manufacturers.

I'd still rather have an iPhone 4 than anything from HTC. And I'd rather have anything from HTC more than just about anything else by a wide margin. I wouldn't touch a phone by Motorola. Nokia now makes pretty much only disposable phones, everything out of Korea is crap, etc.
Posted by: Cris

Re: iPhone 4 - 20/07/2010 04:28

Originally Posted By: hybrid8
When you take into account what the likely real number of affected people is, then yes, it's overhyped.


Bruno, simple question, do you actually have an iPhone 4 ???

This issue effects every single user from what I can tell, to a varying degree of course. Don't see how it has been over hyped to me. I don't want to return my iPhone 4 as I now have a micro SIM and no other iPhone to swap back into. I suspect I am in the same boat as a large number of users, and what is the point of ringing AppleCare when I know there is no solution for the problem I am willing to accept as an actual solution.

I also don't see why there is justification in the argument because one phone has a design flaw that all the others are ok to have them too. I quite frankly don't care what problems Samsung users have and can't really see what that has to do with the design of the iPhone 4.

Cheers

Cris.
Posted by: hybrid8

Re: iPhone 4 - 20/07/2010 11:21

Other phones having issues is no justification for the issues with the iPhone. However, this was all being reported as, "the iPhone 4 has a fatal flaw that no other phone in history has ever had" - which is complete BS.

iPhone 4 comes out in Canada on July 30th. I'd like one. I will not sign a contract with the Canadian piss-poor carriers for any phone however. If I can get one at a reasonable price contract-free then I'm going to jump on it.

There just isn't enough volume of noise to indicate this problem affects even close to half the iPhone 4 population out there. NOte that I didn't say that not all iPhones are affected. This is a design issue, so all the phones are susceptible, but not all customers are going to see it due to where and how they'll use the phones. I have some insight on how product complaints go, having been on both sides of the business a few times. Any number of negative comments will always seem overpower the positive.

You should take your phone back and take back the micro SIM. Since that SIM is for the iPhone, your carrier will have to take it back, especially after Apple has already announced an official return policy and the fact that the phone does have the potential for problems.
Posted by: tanstaafl.

Re: iPhone 4 - 20/07/2010 12:50

Originally Posted By: hybrid8
"the iPhone 4 has a fatal flaw that no other phone in history has ever had" - which is complete BS.

Am I missing something here? Probably I am. Bruno, you know more about cell phones than I will ever want to. I don't even own a cell phone, and when I did it was a $21.95 phone on a $6.67 per month pre-paid plan, and in the year that I had it I probably used it a total of 20 minutes.

That said, has there ever been another phone that lost 90% of its data transfer rate when held in the fashion that 90% of the users would normally hold it? As outlined above, I am probably speaking from a position of invincible ignorance here, and if so you can slap me down and I'll have no hard feelings. But you'd better do it with facts, not mere opinions. I base my assertion that "...the iPhone 4 has a fatal flaw that no other phone in history has ever had" on the fact that when held normally the data transfer rate doesn't just get a little bit worse (like apparently most phones do) but drops precipitously to a small fraction of its nominal value.

Steve Jobs said something to the effect that the problem affects only one half of one percent of the users. This is a classic example of how to lie with statistics. The truth is that only one out of every two hundred users complained about the problem. No doubt the phone works quite well if all you do with it is make phone calls, and probably (I'm just guessing here, no hard data) that is all most users do with it although why such a user would spend $300 to buy the phone and another $100 a month to keep it connected, instead of $21.95 and $6.67/month is beyond me. However, if it is used to its full capabilities (i.e., as a SMARTPHONE) then 100% of the users are affected.

If the phone is held in a normal fashion and used as a Smartphone, there is a serious problem that has not been overblown.

tanstaafl.
Posted by: wfaulk

Re: iPhone 4 - 20/07/2010 13:45

Some reports (such as the one I linked to) clearly show that the data transfer rate falls from 1500kbps to zero (or damned close to zero) immediately upon a light touch directly on the problem spot, without anything else obscuring the antenna. Bruno, if you can give any evidence at all that any other phone ever has had a problem like this (not mere attenuation, but near instantaneous apparent complete loss of signal), I'd love to see it.
Posted by: hybrid8

Re: iPhone 4 - 20/07/2010 14:02

Bitt, I didn't say that any other phones had as severe a problem. You've also seen people testing the problem spot with no loss of data signal though, right?

I'm pretty sure I had also already mentioned that I believe Apple knew about this issue prior to the iPhone's release and it may even be one of the reasons behind the bumper design.

I do find it strange however that even with the small percentage of reports (given the number of sales) that Apple's testing prior to release would not have prompted them to take swifter and more overt action, such as having bundled bumpers right from the start.

Apple treat testing very seriously and let me tell you how many friggen man hours were spent at ATI because 1 system restart in 3000 would hang a Power Mac or some up with screen corruption. Some of their tests had an even lower margin for error, like 1 in 5000. We're talking show-stoppers here.
Posted by: wfaulk

Re: iPhone 4 - 20/07/2010 15:02

Yes, I've seen people demonstrate their inability to reproduce the problem. I bet occurrence of the problem has a lot to do with the signal in the testing environment, from frequency to strength, relative strengths of various frequencies, and probably other factors. That was my point with the Pinto, not to make some sort of car analogy. The problem is that the problem occurs, and it's really significant, even if it doesn't occur in every situation.

I would imagine that most of the iPhone4 real-world testing was done in the SF Bay area, or there and a few other select places. I doubt that there was testing in Peoria, for example. I bet that this problem rarely, if ever, occurs in Apple's prime testing locations.

The problem that I have is that Apple clearly screwed the pooch on this, and won't admit it. ("Doctor, it hurts when I touch the spot." "Don't do that!") The next revision will almost certainly have this problem resolved, and they'll still claim that there isn't a problem, even though they will have clearly taken steps to resolve it.

I think having the antenna be integral to the case is a great idea when you're concerned with space savings. But putting the dielectric at a point where virtually everyone is going to touch it is retarded. I'm not going to claim to be an antenna expert (or novice, even), but rotating the assembly 180° so that the dielectric point is on the upper right, where it's very unlikely to be touched during normal usage, would seem to be a no-brainer.
Posted by: canuckInOR

Re: iPhone 4 - 20/07/2010 15:10

Originally Posted By: hybrid8
However, this was all being reported as, "the iPhone 4 has a fatal flaw that no other phone in history has ever had"

I don't know... most of the reporting I've seen has been "the iPhone 4 has a fatal flaw." Full stop. Sometimes there has been an additional statement to the effect of "my previous iPhone didn't have this problem."

Apple marketing, however, seems to be trying to spin the press as you suggest. Everyone else, however, knows that the question of whether other phones have the same problem isn't relevant -- unless you're Apple, trying to deflect criticism. Sorry Apple, but just because everyone else makes shoddy pieces of junk, doesn't mean you get to make shoddy pieces of junk, too. Especially not when you've built your brand on not making shoddy pieces of junk.

But heck... I don't care. I neither have, nor want, a cell phone.
Posted by: hybrid8

Re: iPhone 4 - 20/07/2010 15:14

They have admitted that there's a problem though. Jobs even referred to the left side as a "weak spot."

Jobs using the word "problem" specifically.

Originally Posted By: "Steve Jobs"

But not everyone is seeing this — a small number encounter it. For those customers we’ll get them a case, and if that doesn’t work, we’ll get them a full refund. And we’ll continue to work on antennas that don’t have this problem.


He even admits that they made a mistake...

Originally Posted By: Steve Jobs

We're human. We make mistakes, and we figure it out fast.


John Gruber's take which is surprisingly similar to mine:
Originally Posted By: "John Gruber"

What I took away from the press conference is that Apple believes the iPhone 4 antenna is better than the previous iPhone antennas, but it has a more sensitive “weak spot”. And, that more sensitive weak spot is inherent to the external antenna design. In short, that it’s a trade-off — better signal quality overall, better aesthetics, more structural rigidity, even better battery life because there’s room for a bigger battery without an internal antenna. The trade-off is that all of those benefits come at the expense of a more sensitive “weak spot”.


Originally Posted By: wfaulk
Bruno, if you can give any evidence at all that any other phone ever has had a problem like this (not mere attenuation, but near instantaneous apparent complete loss of signal), I'd love to see it.


Isn't this what's happening with the Nexus One? Remember back in February? http://www.engadget.com/2010/02/11/nexus-one-3g-problems-persist-after-update-is-it-a-design-pro/
Posted by: tfabris

Re: iPhone 4 - 20/07/2010 16:13

Originally Posted By: "John Gruber"
but it has a more sensitive “weak spot”. And, that more sensitive weak spot is inherent to the external antenna design.


Heh. Now I'm picturing the iPhone as the fourth-level boss, and I have to shoot at the glowing orange spot on the lower left corner when it turns and exposes it to me...
Posted by: wfaulk

Re: iPhone 4 - 20/07/2010 16:49

Originally Posted By: hybrid8
Jobs using the word "problem" specifically.

Okay, fair enough.

Originally Posted By: hybrid8
Isn't this what's happening with the Nexus One?

From the article you linked:
Quote:
many in Google's support forums are noting that the phone will drop a weaker 3G signal merely when held by the bottom

Maybe it's my interpretation, but a phone showing max bars and transferring data at 1500kbps is unlikely to be having a "weaker 3G signal". And it's still demonstrating a meatbag signal attenuation problem, as wrapping your hand around the bottom of the phone (admittedly a normal way to hold it) is the problem, not the presence of a single digit.

Again, there is a problem with every cell phone ever made that human bodies are good RF signal attenuators. This affects all models of the iPhone, the Nexus One, the Pre, etc. Again, every cell phone. It affects some phones more than others, frequently due to asinine antenna placement. I in no way disagree with this assessment. The iPhone may well actually be better in this regard. I can see how an external antenna might be a good solution to this problem.

But the issue with touching the spot is unlike any other cell phone problem description I've ever heard. You have watched videos of people demonstrating the problem, right? The one I linked is a good example. It is basically impossible to use the phone at all if touching it any less than in these demonstrations. I find it very hard to believe that the signal reception (or transmission, maybe) is concentrated in a single spot on the antenna. Assuming it's not, there's something else going on besides normal attenuation. And, if it really is concentrated there, then placing that single spot on one of the most easily obscured surfaces of the phone is an obvious design flaw of its own. There are any number of better spots. Between the two volume buttons, maybe. On the top or bottom of the phone. At the diametrically opposed corner, etc.
Posted by: hybrid8

Re: iPhone 4 - 20/07/2010 17:36

I thought it was because the black piece was plastic separating two different antennas. Put your finger there and you're bridging them.
Posted by: tfabris

Re: iPhone 4 - 20/07/2010 17:50

Me too.
Posted by: tfabris

Re: iPhone 4 - 20/07/2010 17:51

Then again, holding the phone with fingertips on either side of the phone, even when avoiding the iSpot, would also bridge the two antennas. So that can't be it.
Posted by: hybrid8

Re: iPhone 4 - 20/07/2010 18:18

There's a black spot on both sides of the phone. And the metal bands run one along the bottom and one over the top of the phone. It's split in two along those black parts, AFAIK.
Posted by: wfaulk

Re: iPhone 4 - 20/07/2010 18:49

I would assume that, too. Is there some other phone on which you can do that?
Posted by: sn00p

Re: iPhone 4 - 20/07/2010 19:14

This is the image (well, as far as I remember from the original announcment) of the antenna system:



Although it's not entirely clear on the opposing side, it looks like the other notch is purely cosmetic and that there is no break in the antenna on that side.
Posted by: RobotCaleb

Re: iPhone 4 - 20/07/2010 19:16

Originally Posted By: hybrid8
I thought it was because the black piece was plastic separating two different antennas. Put your finger there and you're bridging them.


That's not really beside the point, though, is it?
Posted by: hybrid8

Re: iPhone 4 - 20/07/2010 19:23

Not that I know of. It's part f what makes the product look so good however. And part of what allowed the model to shrink in size yet fit a larger battery. I think we agree that it's a problem. But it's not a problem that has nor will affect everyone. It's also a problem that for some affected people is manageable.

I think a huge problem is the issue with the proximity sensor causing calls to hang up and other oddities. This seems to affect more people than the antenna problems, it just hasn't gotten the same amount of press because it was harder to pin-point and demonstrate. Seems like Apple will address this one in software. You can hold the phone without touching the black spot, you can put the phone into a case. But you can't really use the phone traditionally without putting it up against your head.
Posted by: Cris

Re: iPhone 4 - 20/07/2010 19:38

On a much more positive and constructive note I've been in the studio having some fun with the iPhone4's camera.

It has proven to be very capable, here is one of about 100 shots we got...



This image has been edited in Lightroom then Photoshop, cropped and reduced in overall size, but even the raw jpg is pretty good, see this 100% crop...



A great bit of kit to have in your pocket wherever you go!!!

Cheers

Cris
Posted by: andy

Re: iPhone 4 - 20/07/2010 19:48

Originally Posted By: hybrid8

I think a huge problem is the issue with the proximity sensor causing calls to hang up and other oddities. This seems to affect more people than the antenna problems, it just hasn't gotten the same amount of press because it was harder to pin-point and demonstrate. Seems like Apple will address this one in software. You can hold the phone without touching the black spot, you can put the phone into a case. But you can't really use the phone traditionally without putting it up against your head.

It is very easy to demonstrate and reproduce the proximity sensor issue. All it takes is an iPhone 4+3G/3GS and a piece of paper, dead easy.

The reason the proximity sensor has got less coverage it people (fairly sensibly in mine and sounds like your opinion) expect it to be fixable in software.

The antenna issue however appears* to be unfixable. And adding a Bumper is not a fix. With the Bumper on:

- it doesn't fit in my TomTom dock
- it doesn't fit in Apple's dock
- I can't plug my third party headphones in
- I can't connect my card charger/FM transmitter
- I can't plug my third party charge cable in

If I have to take it out of the Bumper every time I want to do one of these things it is going to dramatically increase the likelihood of me dropping and damaging the phone.

I've tried not touching the spot when holding it, but is very hard for me to achieve. Even if I start a call not touching the spot it is very easy for a finger to wander back on to it.

And it really does take the tiniest touch to trigger it. There is no where on mu 3G that a simple touch can kill the signal.

* I had hoped there would be some way they could tweak the software to at least lesson the problem, but this looks very unlikely now
Posted by: Dignan

Re: iPhone 4 - 20/07/2010 20:24

Originally Posted By: hybrid8
He even admits that they made a mistake...

Originally Posted By: Steve Jobs

We're human. We make mistakes, and we figure it out fast.

The only thing I'd point out here is that while they did address this somewhat quickly (for a large company), I do not believe they handled it well up until then.

Quite frankly, Apple needs to, as a rule, stop Steve from replying to emails from the public (and most press). I actually do think it's cool that he does that, but nothing good has ever come out of it for them as a company (that I know of). Anyone disagree?
Posted by: hybrid8

Re: iPhone 4 - 20/07/2010 20:31

Cris, IMO, lighting always makes the shot. Good job, nice result.
Posted by: RobotCaleb

Re: iPhone 4 - 20/07/2010 20:59

Posted by: tman

Re: iPhone 4 - 20/07/2010 21:27

Antenna-aid bandage.
Posted by: andy

Re: iPhone 4 - 20/07/2010 22:34

Too add insult to injury, it would appear that every time I fit or remove the Apple Bumper it makes small scratches in stainless steel surround on my Apple phone frown
Posted by: hybrid8

Re: iPhone 4 - 21/07/2010 03:07

This antenna stuff has really affected Apple. I've never seen them do anything like this before.

http://www.apple.com/antenna/

It's basically a follow-on to what was said at the press event. They show images and video of the iPhone 4 along with competitor's products being held and causing signal loss.
Posted by: hybrid8

Re: iPhone 4 - 22/07/2010 00:27

I think Steve can still go to bed at night comfortably:

Apple handset profits humiliate the rest of the industry

They make more _profit_ than HTC, Motorola, RIM, Nokia and Sony Ericsson. *Combined*

Damn, didn't know that.

Next take a look at the iPad profits as a percentage of everything Apple does.
http://www.businessinsider.com/chart-of-the-day-ipad-ipod-mac-2010-7

If the rest of the PC industry didn't think they were in trouble before (especially with regards to new products/segments), they'd better think again. I'm pretty sure the iPad is going to steam-roll everything else in unit sales, let alone profits. Why wasn't I this bullish on this fruit company back in 1996/97... Argh.
Posted by: hybrid8

Re: iPhone 4 - 22/07/2010 23:17

Damn, this is the best piece John Gruber has ever written. Seriously.

http://daringfireball.net/2010/07/lyons

You may not appreciate it if you haven't ever read a "Fake Steve Jobs" blog post before.
Posted by: wfaulk

Re: iPhone 4 - 23/07/2010 01:27

Are you (and Gruber) seriously unable to distinguish between covering large parts of the surface area of a phone and touching a single spot?
Posted by: hybrid8

Re: iPhone 4 - 23/07/2010 03:32

I think you missed the point of the link (and the point of its contents).
Posted by: RobotCaleb

Re: iPhone 4 - 23/07/2010 13:55

I'm not sure if I've seen you address it, yet. Bruno, do you acknowledge that there is a major reception issue caused by touching that one troublesome spot on the phone? And do you acknowledge that that particular issue is unique to that particular phone?
Posted by: drakino

Re: iPhone 4 - 23/07/2010 14:00

For those who still have their iPhone 4, your free case is here: http://www.apple.com/iphone/case-program/

Clever that they made an app for this to validate eligibility. Also allows picking from quite a few different cases outside the Apple Bumper.

Mine is in the FedEx system somewhere, on it's way back to Apple. The local store didn't want to accept it back since the iPhone was an online order. Ended up having to go to AT&T to get a new SIM for my older 3GS to reactivate it. Once I activated the 4, the old SIM was completely deactivated.

I do miss the niceties of the iPhone 4 already. but I also enjoy being able to use the phone part again without a case or other thing on the phone to fix a design flaw. Would be nice if Apple could fix this properly by September, but if not, I'll be waiting for next years model.
Posted by: RobotCaleb

Re: iPhone 4 - 23/07/2010 14:04

I was rather hoping you'd move to a good Android phone. It would have been interesting to hear your feedback after you'd gotten used to the differences. You could always have moved back to your 3GS anyway.
Posted by: hybrid8

Re: iPhone 4 - 23/07/2010 17:29

Originally Posted By: RobotCaleb
Bruno, do you acknowledge that there is a major reception issue caused by touching that one troublesome spot on the phone? And do you acknowledge that that particular issue is unique to that particular phone?


There is the potential for a major reception issue when you bridge the gap between the two antennas. It doesn't affect everyone obviously. The "uniqueness" comes from the iPhone's design, not the issue of antenna attenuation itself. No other phone has this type of external antenna with that type of gap between two antennas able to be touched as easily. Plenty of other phones will degrade or drop signal given attenuation by touching different elements of the phone specific to their own designs - check the videos on Youtube and Apple's site. For some people this issue will be more prevalent on the iPhone than it would be on their previous phone(s), given its physical design. For others they will be able to get signal where previously they had no signal at all, even if it's not terribly strong. Yet others won't see this problem at all.

That said, Gruber's message was funny as hell.
Posted by: sn00p

Re: iPhone 4 - 24/07/2010 06:34

So, I finally got my "store pickup" email on Wednesday, I picked the phone up thursday evening.

Obviously I was a little worried by the possibility of the signal issue, so the first time I made a call I had my finger and hand all over the "iSpot" in various positions, I was unable to reproduce the problem. My signal reception at work varies from poor to ok so I was kind of expecting to have an issue but nothing happened, no dropped call, no signal breakup - I couldn't even make the bars drop in any significant way.

I installed the update that evening and played with the phone on my journey from london to cambridge and back again, again watching the signal meter while trying all sorts of iSpot touching and death grip and I couldn't get it to do anything significant. I really was expecting the lightest of touch to trigger it.

So, I fall into the group of (currently) happy campers, for the time being holding and operating the phone in a normal manner works fine for me, for that matter the death grip works fine too.
Posted by: hybrid8

Re: iPhone 4 - 24/07/2010 11:06

Originally Posted By: sn00p
I made a call I had my finger and hand all over the "iSpot" in various positions, I was unable to reproduce the problem. My signal reception at work varies from poor to ok so I was kind of expecting


You must have a defective iPhone4. YOu should return it, since this issue is supposed to affect everyone. wink
Posted by: drakino

Re: iPhone 4 - 24/07/2010 15:51

I never was able to cause issues touching the iSpot during my travels in Portland and Seattle. Once I returned to Austin though, the problems came right back. So it's either something different in the networks in the two areas that minimizes it as an issue in the northwest, or possibly environmental conditions like humidity and the dryness of my skin.

Listening to MacBreak Weekly, they too were seeing mixed results. Leo Laporte stopped using it completely after dropping 5 calls in a day, though he does also live near San Francisco where it's (at least according to Jobs), a nearly 3 year process to install new towers. Andy in Chicago said he can drop bars by touching the spot, but it wasn't a big deal for him considering the other improvements on the phone. And Gruber seemed unaffected by it in Pennsylvania.

If my phone was defective, Apple wasn't interested in replacing it after 2 separate visits to the Genius Bar, even when demonstrating the issue to them.

Glad to hear it is working for you sn00p, and most likely it will work fine for Tony too.
Posted by: sn00p

Re: iPhone 4 - 24/07/2010 16:43

I can't remember whether I read it elsewhere or on here, but there was apparently friction between AT&T and Apple on the first iPhone release because apple had used an infineon chipset which was more suited to europe where cell towers are much closer together. I'm not sure how accurate this is, then again both Andy and Cris are experiencing the antenna issues so I guess that it's not really a relevant fact.

I've been without an iPhone since the 18th of June and it's amazing how I've become reliant on it, my calendar is fairly important because I spend half my life at the hospital and all my appointment details live in there. The biggest loss for me was email, checking my email on the computer seemed like a step back into the dark ages, it's just so much more convenient doing it on the phone.

It's a shame that so many people are having such massive issues, because the phone is brilliant and at least for the meanwhile, it's working at least as well as my 3G did.

I don't think Apple have handled this quite as well as they could have, I think if they'd come out sooner and said "We're not sure why so many of you think you're having problems, we're looking into it" they may have avoided or at least minimised what happened in the 20 odd days following the release. Sure, they were over-exageratting the signal strength bars, but Jobs admitted that they knew that the antenna had an inherent weakness *from the start* and that "all smartphones exhibited it", they really could have said this the moment that things started to escalate.

One thing I know from the stuff we do at work is that RF is all magic, voodoo and pixie dust. As Jobs said, "we knew about it, but we didn't expect it to be such a big issue" (or words to that effect) - it's clear that they've underestimated just what the end users would see.

It'll be interesting to see what the next couple of months has instore.
Posted by: tman

Re: iPhone 4 - 24/07/2010 20:25

The majority of iPhone users love AT&T? Wha?
Posted by: drakino

Re: iPhone 4 - 24/07/2010 20:54

Not everyone in the US lives in San Francisco or New York, but a lot of the tech writers do. Those are the two areas where AT&T does worst due to massive subscriber growth in areas with poor infrastructure to support the users. More tech writers in bad areas = more articles about how AT&T is horrible.

The only problems I have seen with my various iPhones and AT&T happen when I'm in a crowded area like a convention. Outside that, the service has worked just fine. South by Southwest was even fine this year with all the additional infrastructure AT&T rolled in downtown.
Posted by: andym

Re: iPhone 4 - 24/07/2010 21:05

Originally Posted By: andym
Based on the initial murmurs regarding signal problems, I picked up a bumper when I bought the phone

For which, it appears I've been refunded. Thanks Apple!
Posted by: altman

Re: iPhone 4 - 25/07/2010 04:14

Originally Posted By: drakino
I never was able to cause issues touching the iSpot during my travels in Portland and Seattle. Once I returned to Austin though, the problems came right back. So it's either something different in the networks in the two areas that minimizes it as an issue in the northwest, or possibly environmental conditions like humidity and the dryness of my skin.

Listening to MacBreak Weekly, they too were seeing mixed results. Leo Laporte stopped using it completely after dropping 5 calls in a day, though he does also live near San Francisco where it's (at least according to Jobs), a nearly 3 year process to install new towers. Andy in Chicago said he can drop bars by touching the spot, but it wasn't a big deal for him considering the other improvements on the phone. And Gruber seemed unaffected by it in Pennsylvania.


Speaking from a position of zero knowledge about the effect (not my department), maybe it's most severe in low band, ie 850MHz. If so that might explain why you don't seem to see it at all in other places that may be on 1900MHz (or in Europe where you may well be on 2100...)
Posted by: tfabris

Re: iPhone 4 - 25/07/2010 05:11

It would certainly make sense that the problem would be highly frequency-dependent.
Posted by: Cris

Re: iPhone 4 - 25/07/2010 18:37

If you want to check me out being a total dork on camera, then you can see the footage of me using the iPhone 4 in the studio....

http://www.vimeo.com/13502071

Cheers

Cris.
Posted by: andym

Re: iPhone 4 - 25/07/2010 19:05

It's quite funny that even after all this time, the shutter noise the iphone makes is from a film camera, after the click you can hear it winding the film on.

Nice vid Cris.
Posted by: wfaulk

Re: iPhone 4 - 25/07/2010 19:24

FWIW, AT&T is miserable in RTP, too.
Posted by: peter

Re: iPhone 4 - 25/07/2010 20:12

Originally Posted By: andym
It's quite funny that even after all this time, the shutter noise the iphone makes is from a film camera, after the click you can hear it winding the film on.

Not for the first time (but the first time I've been able to discover where I remembered the quote from), I'm reminded of this:
Quote:
Red heard an electronic whistle as the liquid crystal shutter activated and then a chitter as the microprocessor loaded the bits into a mass memory. It cost Electropix an extra few dollars to bridge a piezoelectric disk across the data bus so the customer would know that the picture was taken and stored, but it was those little touches that kept Electropix at the top of the heap.
--Robert Forward, "Rocheworld", 1982.

Can I just say: 1982.

Peter
Posted by: wfaulk

Re: iPhone 4 - 25/07/2010 22:16

It helps when one is not just a fabulist, or a theoretical physicist, but also an engineer.
Posted by: tfabris

Re: iPhone 4 - 26/07/2010 16:37

Originally Posted By: andym
It's quite funny that even after all this time, the shutter noise the iphone makes is from a film camera, after the click you can hear it winding the film on.


The scene: Vixy & Tony are performing a concert entirely acoustically to a small auditorium. No amplification. She's having to sing a lot harder than usual in order to be able to project to the audience. It's going well.

An acquaintance with a large DSLR camera begins taking pictures, and it's doing the CLICK WHIRRR BEEP BEEP BOOP noises with each exposure. Possibly the most annoying thing in the world in that situation.

I ask him later why he didn't turn off those noises on his camera and he says "you can't turn them off on this camera". I called bullshit, and he later discovered the deeply buried menu settings to disable the sounds. Gr.
Posted by: tfabris

Re: iPhone 4 - 26/07/2010 16:39

Originally Posted By: Cris
If you want to check me out being a total dork on camera, then you can see the footage of me using the iPhone 4 in the studio....

http://www.vimeo.com/13502071


Awesome.

Of course, what I'm seeing there is lighting gear and studio technique; at that point with that kind of lighting, any CCD will do. But it's a great demo of how any camera can be made to produce good results in the hands of a professional. Much like any half-decent instrument can produce beautiful music in the hands a of a talented musician.
Posted by: drakino

Re: iPhone 4 - 26/07/2010 17:54

Originally Posted By: tfabris
Much like any half-decent instrument can produce beautiful music in the hands a of a talented musician.

As long as it's tuned properly :-)
Posted by: canuckInOR

Re: iPhone 4 - 26/07/2010 19:38

Originally Posted By: tfabris
Originally Posted By: andym
It's quite funny that even after all this time, the shutter noise the iphone makes is from a film camera, after the click you can hear it winding the film on.


The scene: Vixy & Tony are performing a concert entirely acoustically to a small auditorium. No amplification. She's having to sing a lot harder than usual in order to be able to project to the audience. It's going well.

An acquaintance with a large DSLR camera begins taking pictures, and it's doing the CLICK WHIRRR BEEP BEEP BOOP noises with each exposure. Possibly the most annoying thing in the world in that situation.

I ask him later why he didn't turn off those noises on his camera and he says "you can't turn them off on this camera". I called bullshit, and he later discovered the deeply buried menu settings to disable the sounds. Gr.

Heh. I started doing the promo photography for my wife's community theatre. It took me several shoots before I remembered I could (and should) turn off the auto-focus beeps. At least I'm only shooting during dress rehearsals. Without a blimp/silencer, though, there's not much you can do about shutter and mirror noise on an SLR. So far, the actors have been very tolerant.
Posted by: andym

Re: iPhone 4 - 26/07/2010 20:04

Originally Posted By: tfabris
Of course, what I'm seeing there is lighting gear and studio technique; at that point with that kind of lighting, any CCD will do.

You've obviously never tried to get a good a picture out of almost any HTC phone then! My HTC Prophet, TyTn II and HD all had absolutely pitiful cameras on them. It's only my HD2 that seems to be anything other than total crap. The camera on the iPhone 4 is considerably better than any phone I've owned before.
Posted by: tfabris

Re: iPhone 4 - 26/07/2010 20:19

Originally Posted By: canuckInOR
there's not much you can do about shutter and mirror noise on an SLR. So far, the actors have been very tolerant.


I wouldn't have minded that. I'm aware that there's gonna be a true mechanical click on an SLR. It was the artificial and unnecessary electronic sounds that were supposed to simulate an old school electric film advance mechanism, as well as the BEEBEEP noises it made after each exposure. That's just terrible.

It's like the push to add extra fake engine noise to electric cars. Come on, people, in the digital age we can move past the awful limitations of the old technology. Let's EMBRACE the peace and quiet rather than deliberately disturbing it.
Posted by: wfaulk

Re: iPhone 4 - 26/07/2010 21:31

That was a request from societies for the blind, as they can now not hear if a car is coming at a crosswalk.
Posted by: hybrid8

Re: iPhone 4 - 26/07/2010 21:36

And the camera noise on P&S and cell phones was a request from the League of Skirted Women. Really.
Posted by: gbeer

Re: iPhone 4 - 26/07/2010 23:00

Originally Posted By: wfaulk
That was a request from societies for the blind, as they can now not hear if a car is coming at a crosswalk.


I'll bet they could be heard if the other vehicles weren't so noisy.
Posted by: Roger

Re: iPhone 4 - 27/07/2010 10:10

Originally Posted By: tfabris
It's like the push to add extra fake engine noise to electric cars. Come on, people, in the digital age we can move past the awful limitations of the old technology.


Yeah, I want my car to sound like a rocket ship. Whoosh, zoom, etc.

Or is that not what you meant?
Posted by: wfaulk

Re: iPhone 4 - 27/07/2010 11:01

Ugh. Customized drivetones. I hear too much crap pop already.
Posted by: gbeer

Re: iPhone 4 - 28/07/2010 00:20

Double Ugh. There are enough idiots driving cars with amps that can be herd from 3 blocks away. Encouragement in the form of a requirement to be noisy is not needed.
Posted by: drakino

Re: iPhone 4 - 28/07/2010 18:09

Looks like Best Buy is doing their own free fix for the iSpot, as long as you either bought the phone from them, or have a valid Reward Zone membership.

http://www.engadget.com/2010/07/28/best-buy-to-offer-free-invisibleshield-4fix-to-aggravated-iphone/
Posted by: hybrid8

Re: iPhone 4 - 03/08/2010 14:01

iPhone 4 prices around the world:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/choreographics/4836719813/sizes/o/in/photostream/

The infographic itself sucks (big time) but at least you can see the prices (all converted to Euros, including applicable taxes at point of sale.) Don't compare the sizes of the bars in the graph, because the genius that put together the image didn't start the bottom at zero.

Hong Kong is still the place to buy the iPhone for the least amount of money, for you globetrotters out there.
Posted by: drakino

Re: iPhone 4 - 07/08/2010 20:08

Ouch. After having to fight a legal battle to be able to work at Apple as a senior vice president in 2008, Mark Papermaster is once again looking for a job, possibly due to the iSpot on the iPhone 4.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/08/technology/08apple.html?_r=1

Oh, and maybe I should stop referring to it as the iSpot, now that Clear sells a product by that name. Missed out on getting one for $29.
Posted by: andym

Re: iPhone 4 - 07/08/2010 23:05

To be fair, the person at Apple who thought of using the metal band as the aerial should be reduced to bussing tables in the apple staff canteen. Assuming they haven't already been fired.

I assume nobody has publicly owned up to coming up with the idea?
Posted by: tfabris

Re: iPhone 4 - 09/08/2010 16:17

Well, I just got my iPhone 4 this last weekend, and I think it's the bee's knees.

I can make the bars change by touching the iSpot too. But interestingly, I seem to be able to make the bars go up when touching the iSpot just as often as I can make them go down. Radio frequencies are just weird that way.

Does that make an external touchable antenna a good design or a bad one? Meh, I don't care, the thing works for me. It's got some great features and it performs well.
Posted by: hybrid8

Re: iPhone 4 - 09/08/2010 16:28

I was just at an Apple store today to get a new power supply for my MacBook - the "old" one died last night and I've been unable to use my computer since yesterday. Luckily I managed to squeeze into a Genius bar appointment.

Anyway, I spent a few minutes with the new iPhone. The new model makes all the old ones feel positively crap in your hand. It looks and feels amazing, completely unlike every other phone I've ever held. The difference in build quality between the iPhone 4 and every other mass-market mobile on the is astounding. There's simply nothing that even comes close that I've ever seen (or heard of) - nothing out of Japan or Korea and nothing out of Finland. This is the little pig's brick shithouse whereas most other phones are the straw house or for a few select models, the wood/stick house.

It's still not worth $800 to me though. smile I'd buy one for $350 unlocked in a heartbeat.

There was a long lineup outside the store (in a mall) but I'm not sure exactly what they were waiting for. Or when they'd be serviced. The iPhone 4 is sold out at every Apple store locally as far as I know, and none of the carrier-branded stores or other cell stores have them either. I don't think the antenna is a factor that seems to be affecting sales in an appreciable manner.
Posted by: wfaulk

Re: iPhone 4 - 09/08/2010 16:35

I've never found that bars are anything but a pretty little picture on the phone. They certainly don't seem to have any relevance to any sort of signal quality.
Posted by: Dignan

Re: iPhone 4 - 09/08/2010 17:03

Bruno, while I agree that the build quality on the iPhone 4 is unrivaled, I've been a little surprised that I'm in the minority when it comes to how it feels in my hand. To be honest, I find the phone rather blocky, with edges too sharp to be comfortable in my hand for long periods of time.

This is clearly a subjective opinion, but that's definitely how it feels to me from the times I've held it.

My phone is all plastic (and feels like it), and edges aren't even at a couple spots, but the rounded edges (like previous iPhones) make it more comfortable to me. Again, to each his own...
Posted by: drakino

Re: iPhone 4 - 09/08/2010 17:20

Originally Posted By: hybrid8
There was a long lineup outside the store (in a mall) but I'm not sure exactly what they were waiting for. Or when they'd be serviced. The iPhone 4 is sold out at every Apple store locally as far as I know, and none of the carrier-branded stores or other cell stores have them either. I don't think the antenna is a factor that seems to be affecting sales in an appreciable manner.

I believe Apple bas been putting people on waiting lists for both the iPhone 4 and iPad this year. When your day comes up, you get notified somehow to come in. Odds are the line was for iPhone 4 people, waiting on the store to slowly go through the carrier signup/contract extension process for people ahead of them.
Posted by: tfabris

Re: iPhone 4 - 09/08/2010 17:40

Knowing that there was a going to be a queue for the iPhone 4 anyway, I bought mine online by - get this - installing a special "Apple Store" applet on my iPhone 3G and buying it that way. This actually ended up being the best possible buying experience: The phone came about a week earlier than they said it would. Because I'd bought the new phone by running an app on the old phone, it made the upgrade process 100 percent painless; the old phone's data was automatically part of the purchase, the new phone literally got activated on my existing phone number the moment that I plugged it into iTunes, and the old phone got deactivated.

I've since jailbroken/unlocked the old phone just to mess with it. (I like to keep my daily driver phones "legal" and under warranty, but getting the new phone allowed me freedom to do whatever I wanted with the old phone.) I verified that a T-Mobile SIM works in the thing. Anyone want a 3G? smile
Posted by: hybrid8

Re: iPhone 4 - 09/08/2010 18:20

I think the blockiness and solid feel of the iPhone 4 are what appeal to me most about its design. They edges don't feel sharp to me, but maybe that's because I've also used the MacBook Pro and older iPods that have razor edges. The metallic band isn't as wide as the phone is thick, so there's some rounded-ness because of that. The edge of the glass is also smooth rather than chiseled like a knife as found on the Unibody MacBooks and a number of other Apple products.

Those people in line were going to be there a long time. The queue didn't seem to get any shorter during my hour at the shopping center. The Apple store was what I'd call quite "full" as well, certainly more so than any other store in the entire shopping center - I walked around the whole thing while killing a bit of time until my appointment.

Unfortunately they didn't have any of the new 27" displays available to play with. All the stores in Ontario are pretty small, we certainly don't have anything close to the flagship stores. They're not even as big as the one in the Walden Galleria in the Buffalo area. As an example of space shortage, there was only a single Mac Pro on display and only perhaps two 24" cinema displays from what I saw, one of which was running on the only Mac mini in the store. I suppose that with MacBooks and iMacs making up the lion's share of Mac sales, there are very few displays sold, especially in-store. Even the online store doesn't have a graphic front and center for the Displays category anymore.
Posted by: drakino

Re: iPhone 4 - 13/08/2010 01:07

Impressive demo of Rage running at 60fps on an iPhone 4, with graphics quality beyond what the Playstation 2 and XBox 1 could do, nearing XBox 360/PS3 level graphics/effects. Amazing what power is contained in such a little pocket device, and what can be done with it in the hands of a very skilled programmer.

http://gamevideos.1up.com/video/id/30824
Posted by: RobotCaleb

Re: iPhone 4 - 13/08/2010 02:40

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pzts8tsKuHs
Posted by: drakino

Re: iPhone 4 - 13/08/2010 14:43

The interesting part of the Rage demo is that Carmack took the time to get it working even on the 2007 iPhone without looking that different then what was on the iPhone 4. And both were pulling in megatexture assets.

Comparing the two side by side, the Rage demo was far more impressive then the Unreal Engine 3 one.

Unreal Engine 3


Rage (unfortunately not a lot of good stills out there)


The rage tech should be shipping in an iPhone game by the end of the year, with a second iPhone game planned alongside the 2011 PC/Console game release.
Posted by: wfaulk

Re: iPhone 4 - 13/08/2010 14:47

Agreed. The penumbra effect is a remarkable improvement. I assume that that's what smoothing out object edges, too.
Posted by: RobotCaleb

Re: iPhone 4 - 13/08/2010 15:12

The UE3 stuff is like 7 months old. I'm sure it looks better than that now.

I guess the main difference would be that Epic's demo actually did something. (Edit: Not that it'd be that hard to make Carmack's demo do something as well)

Carmack's demo was neat but I came away from it with the same feeling I have for most of id's games. They're neat but mostly just showcases for Carmack's tech. The more impressive stuff is usually what licensees do with it.
Posted by: Dignan

Re: iPhone 4 - 14/08/2010 03:12

While I agree that the phone is capable of some incredible performance, personally I simply cannot get past the lack of hard buttons. I can't play most games with just the screen, and it looks to me like playing an FPS would be torture for me (if I could even stand looking at it).

Don't get me wrong, this isn't an iPhone thing for me, it's a thing with all slate phones. I have an SNES emulator on my Nexus one that is more than capable of playing any game from my SNES days, but I can't stand controlling them. Granted, those games weren't designed for this input method, but the ones that are don't feel good to me either.

And don't get me started on accelerometer-based games. Not for me, thanks...
Posted by: RobotCaleb

Re: iPhone 4 - 01/09/2010 18:23

I don't have an iPhone, so I haven't been able to check this out.

http://bit.ly/cpbrZ3

Here are a couple of videos of it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtcLSXKk5To
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPiOynw7cCo
Posted by: andy

Re: iPhone 4 - 01/09/2010 18:36

Wow, just wow. So detailed and so, so smooth.
Posted by: Dignan

Re: iPhone 4 - 01/09/2010 19:14

Let me be clear when I say this: that is amazing. Absolutely. I'm so excited that a mobile platform can do that now.

BUT (you knew that was coming): to me, that still looks like a PITA when it comes to controlling it. I suppose I might get used to it after playing with it for a long time, but should I? There are faster control methods out there, it's actually kind of sad that I have to cover up those beautiful graphics with my thumbs!

The only other thing I have to say is that I love the first video because it simultaneously shows what the iPhone does better than anyone - the gaming - and worse than everyone - the horrible, disruptive notifications. I'm amazed that Steve is happy with how those work... I know we talked about the notifications already, how it's difficult to change them quickly, but I'm amazed they aren't even talking about it.
Posted by: drakino

Re: iPhone 4 - 01/09/2010 19:23

Definite improvement over what they last showed, and pretty cool they shipped their tech demo for people to play around with. Now to see what they do with the tech, not only for their own game, but how they license it.
Posted by: andy

Re: iPhone 4 - 01/09/2010 19:32

I'm not a gamer. I found navigating around ok, however it was much easier on the iPad, just so much more room.
Posted by: drakino

Re: iPhone 4 - 01/09/2010 22:35

Interesting, looks like Apple wanted to have Rage be in the keynote.
Originally Posted By: John Carmack
Apple insisted that if we wanted to be part of the keynote, I couldn’t show my work at Quakecon, so I declined.
Posted by: tfabris

Re: iPhone 4 - 02/09/2010 03:11

Originally Posted By: Dignan
Let me be clear when I say this: that is amazing. Absolutely. I'm so excited that a mobile platform can do that now.


Honestly, as pretty as it is, I actually wasn't impressed. Because it's not doing anything "hard" by modern standards: It's all pre-rendered textures, all the lighting is baked into the textures already. There's no dynamic lighting that I could see. Having a decent set of tools to create baked environments like that is impressive and important, but I don't find the tech of "playing back" all that pre-baked stuff surprisingly impressive. At that point it's just textured polygons.

Don't get me wrong, though, I certainly couldn't code anything like that, that's all rocket science to me. And the artistry of the level design is top notch, I'm not capable of that either. All I'm saying is that the art is more impressive than the tech in that demo.

Quote:
BUT (you knew that was coming): to me, that still looks like a PITA when it comes to controlling it. I suppose I might get used to it after playing with it for a long time, but should I? There are faster control methods out there, it's actually kind of sad that I have to cover up those beautiful graphics with my thumbs!


Interestingly, the two-thumbs control scheme is not the only way to control things. I like the adventure-game style click-to-walk-there mechanic and I don't think it gets in the way nearly as much as the two-thumbs method. I can envision entire games built around that mechanic. You can see it in the latter half of the second video, and if the dude didn't hover his finger over the screen the whole time, it would actually be a lot less obtrusive.

Quote:
and worse than everyone - the horrible, disruptive notifications. I'm amazed that Steve is happy with how those work... I know we talked about the notifications already, how it's difficult to change them quickly, but I'm amazed they aren't even talking about it.


I don't know what those were about. My phone doesn't do that to me. Maybe it's because I have a lot of that crap turned off...
Posted by: andy

Re: iPhone 4 - 02/09/2010 06:56

Originally Posted By: tfabris

I don't know what those were about. My phone doesn't do that to me. Maybe it's because I have a lot of that crap turned off...

They were just notification from an app. Your phone would of course have done that too if you'd have received a text message or an app notification while playing the demo.
Posted by: tfabris

Re: iPhone 4 - 02/09/2010 12:44

Ah. Yeah. I just turn off all the push notifications. smile

I guess what Dignan was saying was that the OS architecture should have a more graceful way of handling that sort of thing even when you enable the feature.
Posted by: RobotCaleb

Re: iPhone 4 - 02/09/2010 13:32

I think there's a mobile OS that does that already. wink
Posted by: drakino

Re: iPhone 4 - 02/09/2010 16:23

Indeed, WebOS notifications are pretty slick. Android, eh, they are ok. (Just realized I never did post my final thoughts on my Android experience, I'll look to do that tonight).
Posted by: Robotic

Re: iPhone 4 - 21/09/2010 15:47

Just saw this on DealExtreme and laughed in surprise. Had to share.
Colorful Hard Rubber Sucker Stand for iPhone 3G/3GS/4/iPod (Color Assorted)

Imagine leaving that on your desk at work!
Posted by: wfaulk

Re: iPhone 4 - 21/09/2010 17:29

With all of the oddball multipurpose devices on DealExtreme, I'm surprised they didn't list a second use for that one, too.
Posted by: tman

Re: iPhone 4 - 21/09/2010 18:08

I'm just wondering how exactly its supposed to work (with your iPhone)

You stick it to your desk and then lean your iPhone against it? It doesn't sound very secure to me...
Posted by: wfaulk

Re: iPhone 4 - 21/09/2010 18:12

No, I think you stick it to the phone, and lean the plug ball end against the desk.
Posted by: Robotic

Re: iPhone 4 - 21/09/2010 18:17

I think it can be stuck to a chair, so the average consumer of Apple products has more stable seating during the iPhone 4 experience.

laugh I keed, I keed
Posted by: tman

Re: iPhone 4 - 21/09/2010 18:18

Originally Posted By: wfaulk
No, I think you stick it to the phone, and lean the plug ball end against the desk.

Thats even worse. So you've got to attach and detach this thing each time?
Posted by: Robotic

Re: iPhone 4 - 21/09/2010 18:25



GIS for 'iphone stand' is pretty neat, actually.
Posted by: gbeer

Re: iPhone 4 - 22/09/2010 23:29

Originally Posted By: Robotic
I think it can be stuck to a chair, so the average consumer of Apple products has more stable seating during the iPhone 4 experience.

laugh I keed, I keed


How do you hide the cork popping sound?