Another one bites the dust.

Doesn't seem like anyone can get it right.

My player has joined the ranks of the locked up Karmas. Same thing happened with my Creative Zen, only that player got around to locking up after several months instead of a couple of weeks.

I'm running firmware 1.25.

Sticking a paper clip into the infinitesimally small reset hole has proven no solution. I just get the startup screen, nothing more.

I'll be *so* glad when high-capacity solid state players become affordable.

I feel your pain. I hope for your sake you have a recourse with whoever you bought it from and aren't going to be forced to deal with DNNA directly like I am having to do. If you do, prepare to be without your player for a while.

I've never had any significant problems with my original iPod. Just FYI.

(Probably the same for many Karma owners, too.)

Probably the same for many Karma owners, too.

Like this one. 2 months and running.....

Bitt Fault: I've never had any significant problems with my original iPod. Just FYI.

I had an iPod for a couple of months. Great interface, but there were two issues that made me switch to a Creative Zen:

(1) The iPod has merely good sound quality (Zen and Karma sound is noticeably superior).

(2) The iPod refused to play several of my MP3 rips (so did the Zen, for that matter). The Karma played everything...

... until it decided to play nothing.

In retrospect, of course, I should have stayed with the iPod. It consistently met the most crucial requirement: it worked.

At least the folks at Rio have a sense of humor: when I put my player into recovery mode, I get the message, "bad karma."

Marcus: 2 months and running.....

That's great for you, Marcus. For me, the Karma just achieved junk status.

Although, if they can get this kink ironed out, I'll buy another one (presuming something better hasn't come along by that time, of course).

Although, if they can get this kink ironed out, I'll buy another one

At a guess the most likely cause was a failed disk drive, which unfortunately is a risk you take with a hard disk based player. The same sort of failure can be expected in a certain proportion of any hard disk players shipped.

That fact of course is in no way comforting when you are one of the consumers with the failed disk

One day we won't need hard disks for this sort of use, thankfully. Can you imagine getting in a time machine, going back in time and telling the inventor of the first Winchester drive (Google only shows that it was IBM, but not who at IBM) what the desendants of their device would end up being used in

Me: Although, if they can get this kink ironed out, I'll buy another one

andy: At a guess the most likely cause was a failed disk drive, which unfortunately is a risk you take with a hard disk based player. The same sort of failure can be expected in a certain proportion of any hard disk players shipped.

What does that mean? That I shouldn't expect Rio to do something about this?

Is it an insoluble issue for them? If so, shouldn't they have a robust repair/replacement plan in effect? KungFuCow is having to wait a very long time to have his Karma repaired/replaced, and it looks as though I will, too. I haven't even received a response from Rio support, yet.

I wasn't suggesting that Rio shouldn't do anything about it. I expect them to replace your broken unit.

From your "Although, if they can get this kink ironed out, I'll buy another one" I took it to mean that you thought there was some sort of general problem with the Karma meaning that you would be simply returning the unit to Rio rather than getting them to replace it.

I am saying however that whatever Rio do some Karmas will fail early on in their lives. All electronic goods have this problem, the Karma has more of a problem because it has a hard disk (as does the iPod and others).

A proportion of Karmas will fail early in their lives with dead hard drives. Many of the customers that have this happen will think "this is a crappy product if it fails within a few days". Some of them will decide at this point they don't want any more to do with the Karma and ask for their money back.

The law of averages will also mean that some consumers will have an early failure, get a replacement and then have another quick failure. If I was designing a product support strategy I would make sure that such a customer was flagged immediately and given extremely good support, immediately. I would make sure that they were overnighted a replacement unit and when I had their broken unit back (and had confirmed a second failure) I would refund half their purchase price.

Nowadays with the web and all you can get such a bad name from a tiny number of dead-on-arrival or early failures that companies need to start taking measures to address this. I have no idea if Rio have such an approach.

Its in no way unique to the Karma. Any product of this nature will experience 'issues'. Go to Google and type in 'Broken iPod' and see how many bad reviews you read.

Of course, you seldom hear of the people who love their products and have no problems, so it will always seem that there are a higher proportion of faulty units that there actually are.

Nobody phones me to tell me that their PCs are working 100% well

PhilipOHare: Its in no way unique to the Karma. Any product of this nature will experience 'issues'. Go to Google and type in 'Broken iPod' and see how many bad reviews you read.

What's your point? When iPods break down, I'd expect people to complain about them, as I've done here. I don't see how the hard drive failure rates of iPods or Zens or any other players excuse the failure of my Karma; simply writing the issue off as unavoidable is a sycophantic cop-out. Apple's repair/replacement time is reportedly very fast; if there really isn't anything that Rio can do about the Karma drive failures, then shouldn't Rio's/DNNA's response time be just as quick?

PhilipOHare: Of course, you seldom hear of the people who love their products and have no problems, so it will always seem that there are a higher proportion of faulty units that there actually are.

On this board, the praise for the Karma far outweighs the negative remarks. The same is true over at amazon.com (almost entirely five star reviews) and a few other sites I've visited.

My point, is that you reffered to the problem as a 'kink' that needed ironed out. I'd say its nothing that need ironed out, its just that a drive has gone dodgy as you will find with any product of this nature.

Your unit is under warranty and I can only assume it will be honoured. I don't know how it works in the US, but in the UK you don't deal with the manufacturer, you can just return it to the store where you bought it from and get a replacement on the spot.

You may have to deal directly with the company if you've gone down the eBay route, but then, I'd expect that to be the case.

andy: I am saying however that whatever Rio do some Karmas will fail early on in their lives. All electronic goods have this problem, the Karma has more of a problem because it has a hard disk (as does the iPod and others).

Right, and again: Given this allegedly unavoidable phenomenon, Rio/DNNA should be prepared to deal with the situation promptly.

andy: If I was designing a product support strategy I would make sure that such a customer was flagged immediately and given extremely good support, immediately. I would make sure that they were overnighted a replacement unit and when I had their broken unit back (and had confirmed a second failure) I would refund half their purchase price.

That's nice, but from what I'm told, Rio/DNNA's repair/replacement response time is poor. I have yet to hear from Rio support, myself.

Out of curiousity, what is the official channel for reporting a problem with a Karma or getting it replaced? I assume it is an 800 number to get an RMA etc... It might be worth while documenting who you spoke to / emailed. There are a lot of DNNA and Cabridge folks watching this forum (and riovolution) very carefully. If they can find a pattern where support is breaking down, they can at least report it to the DNNA "powers that be"...

PhilipOHare: My point, is that you reffered to the problem as a 'kink' that needed ironed out. I'd say its nothing that need ironed out, its just that a drive has gone dodgy as you will find with any product of this nature.

It might be the hard drive. I don't know for sure, and no one else does either. My Karma is exhibiting none of the symptoms typically associated with a failed drive.

This is new hardware, and several problems that were Rio's fault have cropped up in the recent past.

After my experience, and having read the early failure reports, I'm not giving Rio the benefit of the doubt. At the least, better QC might be in order.

If you prefer to cut Rio some slack, that's your call.

pgrzelak: Out of curiousity, what is the official channel for reporting a problem with a Karma or getting it replaced? I assume it is an 800 number to get an RMA etc... It might be worth while documenting who you spoke to / emailed.

I sent an e-mail to tech support at this page. (I got there from here.)

Can you not simply return it to the place you bought it ? Or is that not the way it works in the US ?

andy: Can you not simply return it to the place you bought it ? Or is that not the way it works in the US ?

No (return period has already expired), and yes, that is (generally) the American way.

I have been pestering support about my broken karma wheel since the Decemeber 20 something, the online tech support seems to be swamped or just ignore folks. I think I should call them up on the phone and try to talk with a person.

Greetings!

I would always recommend phone support over the email support whenever possible. This way, you can get a live person (or their manager) to deal with.

If you do decide to do this, a recommendation I would give would be to have a list of the steps you did to try to correct the situation (i.e., hard reset, reloading firmware, etc.). This way, you can short circuit any scripts that they may have. Make sure you get the rep's name and ask to speak with a supervisor if things are not going well.

Note: I am not affiliated with DNNA or Rio (other than as a beta tester), so I have no idea how their support works or who does it. This is just based on other support calls I have made to various vendors.

DNNA does not have an 800 number for tech support. It's a toll call. This is the process to RMA a Karma:

1 - Call DNNA and report the problem.

2 - Be told by DNNA that you need to fax proof of purchase to them to "activate" your RMA. I was told, and I assume MIlo was as well, that you will be contacted by DNNA telling you that your RMA is activated. I never got such email.

3 - Send the Karma to Irving, Texas.

4 - Wait

5 - Wait

6 - Wait

7 - Call DNNA and get more lame excuses.

Repeat 4-7

Hope that helps.

Also, Paul.. while I agree that calling is probably best, I suspect that DNNA has outsourced their support. I have yet to talk to anyone with an american accent when I have called in. It's always been "Melanie", "Brian" or "John" who all have accents that sound like they're from Bombay. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

Im editing so as not to add another post to this thread. Paul, you made mention of taking things back to the store. In the US, it doesn't work that way. Here, you have (usually) 30 days to return/exchange something after you buy it, whether it's because you just dont want it or it breaks. Some stores are more, some less. Usually only stores like Walmart, Kmart, etc go longer than 30 days. CompUSA, a computer/electronics chain here in the US only gives you 15 days to return/exchange things and even then you have to pay a restocking fee.

Finally.. and I do hate to rant, but my Karma has been broken longer than it worked at this point. I contected DNNA on the 10th of December about my unit and am still getting the lame "We dont have any units to use as replacement units" story now that was given to me then. The girl I spoke with last week, "Melanie" could not give me a time frame on replacing my unit and suggested that if I didnt have a replacement in a week (Which I didnt get) that I should call back. This is starting to get real old, real fast. I mean, if this was a $20.00 item that you can just replace, it would be no big deal but the Karma is a fairly hefty financial investment for most people and the way DNNA has handled this whole situation, with horrible customer support, SLOW to NONEXISTENT response time and the fact that they still have my Karma and are giving me the same story they were giving me way back on the 10th of December is inexcusable.

A couple of people over on the Riovolution board suggested I should have bought one somewhere else, swapped them and got a refund. In hindsight, that probably is what I should have done because obviously doing the right thing is getting me nowhere.

/Rant mode off (For Now)

...okay...

For what it is worth, I have posted a link to this thread on the Karma beta BBS. Again, I do not know if anyone there can really do anything to help the process, but at least it raises the visibility of the problem.

"Not that there's anything wrong with that."

Well, clearly there _is_ something wrong with that since IMHO you're being dicked and getting really crappy (read NO) customer service. I declare Shenanigans.

If you _know_ in advance that some are going to fail due to hard drive failure, it's BS that you don't have a system in place to deal with these failures quickly/painlessly for the people who bought your product. The drive manufacturers don't seem to have a problem. I think the most I've waited for a replacement HD is about a week.

I hope the HD in the Karma I bought for my wife never fails, as I'd buy a competitor and not look back. I don't have the time or energy to wring blood from a stone. This from someone who bought one Full Price ($400) on Day One.

Good luck guys.

-Zeke

"Not that there's anything wrong with that."
Well, clearly there _is_ something wrong with that since IMHO you're being dicked and getting really crappy (read NO) customer service. I declare Shenanigans.

FYI RMA is in the USA. The guys in India can only report what they're told by the Americans. If we're going to start implying a link between nationality and quality of service, my personal experience is that American service in general is about the worst in the world.

It's so easy here in Europe - you take it back to the store. I now have a useless digital camcorder thanks to Frys and their total lack of customer service after 30 days (combined with Panasonic failing to provide an international warranty with their products).

Rob

Rob,
My point was that whatever the reason for the disconnect, nationality, understaffing, communication - whatever, wherever, it doesn't really matter as the process _is_ broken as evidenced by the absurd time KungFuCow is having.

Regarding off-shore call centers - I'm personally against them - if only for the reason that frankly, the few experiences I've had with it the reps have been hard to understand. That's not a racist comment, that's a fluency comment. If there were no accent/understandability issues I can't say that I'm against it, I understand perfectly the business logic. I'm just saying that the replacment offshore houses I've experienced are not as good as those they replaced, due to the accents. If the accents were better, I'd probably not notice (apart from the crappy connection quality/timelag which is a whole separate matter).

WRT American service - I've seen it both ways. I get good service from some companies, crappy service from others (and size of Co. is no barometer for this). Right now it looks like Rio is falling into the second category, which is a shame as the core product(s) is(are) so good (for which we have you & the Cambridge crew in large part to thank).

-Zeke

So customer service IS outsourced to India. I thought as much but didnt want to come right out and say it. I dont really have a problem with dealing with the people as long as I can understand them and so far, I have been able to. The problem, tho, is that you're dealing with people who can't get anything done. So you talk to a customer service rep, talk to their supervisor.. they're half a world away, what can they do? Not to mention that they aren't even really doing their job that well to begin with as emails aren't getting answered in a timely manner (Or at all).

So Rob, how do I get to someone in the US who has anything to do with RMAing? You may not know the answer to that but if all the people in India can do is report what they're told, then how do I get to the people who are telling them their information?

This is the 21st century. It makes no difference what continent the support people are on, they are quite able to escalate an issue to a supervisor if necessary.

As it happens I also send threads to the customer care manager in cases that I think require his attention.

Rob

Ohhhkay.. so let me rephrase a bit, since you know more about how DNNA works than I do, what's my best recourse to try to get things escilated at this point?

I'm not involved in that side of the business. I sent a copy of your post to the customer care manager, but I'd suggest you ask a customer care rep to put you through to a supervisor.

Rob

Another thing you might try is your consumer protection from your credit card company. If you purchased by credit card you have certain protections. If they feel the circumstances warrant it, they will credit your card with the original purchase amount and bill the company. The company will then have to show good proof why you should have to honor the purchase. I did this once and the credit card agent was very good AND very helpful. (Worked out in my favor.)

I now have a useless digital camcorder thanks to Frys and their total lack of customer service after 30 days (combined with Panasonic failing to provide an international warranty with their products).

Uh-oh. I got a SV-AV100 SD Camcorder for Christmas. Please tell me yours wasn't that model, Rob...

I got a SV-AV100 SD Camcorder for Christmas. Please tell me yours wasn't that model, Rob

No, mine is a DV203D. The apperture control (or whatever stops cameras saturating in bright light these days) stopped working about 10 minutes before the last ever Concorde landing *doh*

Rob

And the fun just keeps on coming.

Yesterday I get an email from DNNA saying that my Karma had been shipped. Unfortunately the tracking number does not (Even now, and its been longer than 24 hours) show up on Rio's RMA page. The email says it may take "up to 24 hours." In typical Rio fashion, it still isn't there.

On top of that, assuming the replacement units ship from the same place the defective units go to, I should have had the replacement today if it truly was shipped yesterday. The replacement unit did not come.

As someone who has a whole house full of DNNA products, this whole RMA experience with the Karma is souring me off of them quickly. When my Replays and other DNNA products needs replacing, I will be looking at alternates. It's a shame because they make nice products but they just can't seem to get the customer service end of things down. Sonic Blue couldn't and it seems to just keep plaguing whoever owns the Rio and Replay product lines.

Not that this matters at all for your situation, apparently they weren't shipping ANY Karma's until this week. I ordered one for my wife (for Christmas) and it just now shipped. I was told on the phone that the reason for the delay was that "no one was in because of the holiday's". It was a little irritating to hear this, but I suppose I knew it was backordered when I bought it. I really just didn't expect it to take a month.

The only reason I say all this is I'll bet everything would have been much snappier had it not been during the holiday season that you had your issues. Not that that really makes it better or is a good excuse. Just an observation.

Well, shipping was closed on Xmas and New Years however keep in mind that my ordeal started all the way back on the 9th of December and even then they had no units. So unless the holiday season drained their inventory due to sales (Which would be great for them, bad for me) I can't see that being an issue.

On a side note, my replacement unit's tracking number is finally working. Interesting how defective units go to Irving, Texas and replacement units come from Tempe, AZ.

oooh, tempe. if mine ever breaks down, thats a 20 minute drive

Well, shipping was closed on Xmas and New Years however keep in mind that my ordeal started all the way back on the 9th of December and even then they had no units.

I ordered mine on the 17th, which is only a week later. I think they were pretty much out of stock throughout December.