Shuffle Mode

Posted by: mldarm

Shuffle Mode - 27/01/2004 13:41

Is there any way to control the way Karma arranges tracks in shuffle mode? Lately I've been getting big blocks of the same artist. I think what I would really like is a random mix, not just least recently played to most recently played.

I haven't used RioDJ because it looks like it selects from all tracks on the player, I would like to have other options for whatever subset of tracks I want to hear.
Posted by: JeffS

Re: Shuffle Mode - 27/01/2004 14:23

Lately I've been getting big blocks of the same artist. I think what I would really like is a random mix
Uh oh, here we go again!
Posted by: jmwking

Re: Shuffle Mode - 27/01/2004 14:24

Is there any way to control the way Karma arranges tracks in shuffle mode? Lately I've been getting big blocks of the same artist. I think what I would really like is a random mix, not just least recently played to most recently played.
Randomness has been discussed before. Ad nauseum, but with a sound conclusion (and in a direction only likely to be found on this bbs ) on grouping.

edit: Argh! Too late!

-jk
Posted by: tfabris

Re: Shuffle Mode - 27/01/2004 14:27

Lately I've been getting big blocks of the same artist.
 Define, as precisely as possible, "big blocks"?
Posted by: mldarm

Re: Shuffle Mode - 27/01/2004 15:42

Sorry to bring up something that's been done, didn't realize. As far as what it looks like, I'll get something like 4 songs in a row, then some other artist, then tree more by the first artist and then a couple more within the next 5 tracks. I notice this particularly if I've just listened to one album, then if I play a playlist including that and many other albums, the tracks from that album are at the end of the list. Or if I rip a new disc its tracks are at the start of the list.

I guess I just wish there were a setting that was to the effect of "no more than x songs in a row by the same artist". Or maybe be able to force a uniform distribution rather than random.
Posted by: tfabris

Re: Shuffle Mode - 27/01/2004 15:56

As far as what it looks like, I'll get something like 4 songs in a row, then some other artist, then tree more by the first artist and then a couple more within the next 5 tracks.
 If this isn't an exaggeration, then this could potentially be a bug, depending on the mix of tunes existing on the player and the exact steps you used to create this situation in the first place.

What version of the firmware is the player running? How many tunes by how many different artists are on the player?
Posted by: JeffS

Re: Shuffle Mode - 27/01/2004 16:00

I guess I just wish there were a setting that was to the effect of "no more than x songs in a row by the same artist". Or maybe be able to force a uniform distribution rather than random.
 Yes, this would be very cool, and something I asked for in my very first post on this BBS. Hopefully it's on a list somewhere . . .
Posted by: tfabris

Re: Shuffle Mode - 27/01/2004 16:04

Or maybe be able to force a uniform distribution rather than random.
 Remember that this would have a side-effect. Artists who are the majority would get the bulk of their songs piled up at the end of the shuffle. Artists who are the minority would have always have their one or two songs showing up near the beginning of the shuffle.
Posted by: JeffS

Re: Shuffle Mode - 27/01/2004 16:09

Artists who are the majority would get the bulk of their songs piled up at the end of the shuffle. Artists who are the minority would have always have their one or two songs showing up near the beginning of the shuffle.
 In other words: If I make it through an entire shuffle of my player (not likely) I'll be treated to a Rush-a-thon at the end. I can live with that!
Posted by: tfabris

Re: Shuffle Mode - 27/01/2004 16:16

In other words: If I make it through an entire shuffle of my player (not likely) I'll be treated to a Rush-a-thon at the end. I can live with that!
Me too. But what I couldn't live with is hearing the single lone Blue Oyster Cult song each time I started up a fresh shuffle.
Posted by: Daria

Re: Shuffle Mode - 27/01/2004 16:18

Don't Fear the Reaper?
Posted by: tfabris

Re: Shuffle Mode - 27/01/2004 16:21

Godzilla, actually.
Posted by: JeffS

Re: Shuffle Mode - 27/01/2004 16:32

Me too. But what I couldn't live with is hearing the single lone Blue Oyster Cult song each time I started up a fresh shuffle.
Well I'd think you wouldn't have the same song show up at the beginning in a "smoothed out" shuffle, it just wouldn't show up in the Rush glut at the very end. With the number of tracks we're talking about, the BOC song will still be buried somwhere in the first 2,500 tracks (for my player), which doesn't really mean it'll come up at the "beginning".
Posted by: JeffS

Re: Shuffle Mode - 27/01/2004 16:35

Actually, I think I understand what you're saying as I think about it. But what I'm seeing is not a "uniform distribution" algorithm but a "play x songs by other artists before another song by this artist again". Setting this at even as low a number as 20 would get rid of the "combing" effect while not removing the "perceived randomness" of the shuffle.
Posted by: mldarm

Re: Shuffle Mode - 27/01/2004 16:37

In reply to:

If this isn't an exaggeration, then this could potentially be a bug, depending on the mix of tunes existing on the player and the exact steps you used to create this situation in the first place.

What version of the firmware is the player running? How many tunes by how many different artists are on the player?


I usually listen to a playlist of about 1000 songs by about 40 artists, or a genre with about 150 tracks by 5 artists, and I definitely see at least to most recently played ordering, although not strictly so.

Real example: I was just listening to that genre, then did menu-play music-playlist-playlist1-play all tracks and I got:
4 tracks I re-ripped the other day and haven't listened to yet, three random tracks, 6 tracks by an artist I have two discs of, two random tracks, 7 more by the same artist of the previous run, then it looks somewhat random. After re-shuffling it still looks similar.

I have firmware 1.41.
Posted by: tfabris

Re: Shuffle Mode - 27/01/2004 16:58

If you mess with this program, you can see that the 150-song case is always going to look funny in a shuffle even if it's completely random. That's just too few songs to get a decent distribution. 1000 songs is better, assuming the artists in question are evenly distributed.

However, if the player is genuinely doing a least-recently-played rather than a random, then I would think that would be a bug.
Posted by: mldarm

Re: Shuffle Mode - 27/01/2004 17:03

I was just thinking- is it possible that there is some relation to whatever replacement method is chosen in the synchroniztion profile? I don't know offhand what mine is set to, but it's probably the default. However, that sounds like a bug to me too.
Posted by: tfabris

Re: Shuffle Mode - 27/01/2004 17:06

The synchronization profile shouldn't be related to the shuffle mode.

On the other hand, if you've set your synch profile to cycle different tunes and artists into your player each time you dock it, then you might be seeing a side-effect of that. For instance, if you have told it to delete artists you've recently listened to and insert artists from the PC that you haven't heard in a while, then it might have fewer tunes on the player than you think.
Posted by: Daria

Re: Shuffle Mode - 27/01/2004 17:08

Well, it was one or the other. I should get both.
Posted by: pgrzelak

Re: Shuffle Mode - 27/01/2004 17:39

Sorry to digress, but I still need more cowbell...
Posted by: Daria

Re: Shuffle Mode - 27/01/2004 18:04

I assume someone here won't get it, since I had to explain it elsewhere recently...

The cowbell is an instrument that can't be overused.
Posted by: tfabris

Re: Shuffle Mode - 28/01/2004 12:59

However, if the player is genuinely doing a least-recently-played rather than a random, then I would think that would be a bug.
Aha. I've confirmed from the inside that the player is doing a least-recently-played there, so it explains the behavior you're seeing. There's discussions going on about how best to prevent the undesired results you were seeing.
Posted by: brendanhoar

Re: Shuffle Mode - 14/02/2004 15:43

It makes me sad that all the mp3s are missing from: http://www.geekspeakweekly.com/cowbell/



-brendan

PS - I'm a big fan of Brendan Canty's use of a ship's bell, actually.