An "Empeg Distribution": How far away are we?

Lately, with all of the cool things people have developed for the empeg, I find myself wondering how large of a leap it would be to start maintaining a full distribution of all things Empeg. Like, I know smu did some work on an upgrade builder/splitter package which, if I remember correctly, allows for creating upgrade files that are compatible with the empeg car upgrade utility. I'm not sure how mature it is yet, but I think it's a great start.

So I think it would be cool for people to start thinking about how we could manage an entire empeg distribution, consisting of the latest releases of:

- the empeg car software
- the hijack kernel
- the various and sundry apps, games, and utilities that we've all developed

Packaging these in an .upgrade file would seem kinda cool, except that we would all lose our config files in /etc.. Unless we had an alternate chrooted environment as has been suggested in the past... Then we'd have to figure out how to allow for upgrades to certain programs without flashing an entire upgrade (I guess debian's dpkg would be a good candidate.)

Of course, there would be some time/effort for whatever person or persons are maintaining the distribution, but I think it would be kinda fun, too. I'd offer whatever services I can... But I guess I'm just fishing for comments on how much work would be needed to create an entire standard Empeg distribution that we could all share. This would make it a lot easier for newbies to get up and running with all of the latest Empeg goodies, and would also make programmers' lives easier due to standard locations for everything.

Anyone have any experience in this arena?

I have been thinking along these lines for the past month or so. It started with the (latest) color screen thread. It seems quite obvious to me that my iPaq would make a killer empeg screen. Not only that, but I'm quite sure it runs the same ARM processor as the HSX-109.

I have little experience with the workings of the empeg's linux install outside of installing Display Server. But I have been thinking of putting a small Debian distro on the iPaq and then trying to get the car software on there. Having an Empeg distro would make this much easier.

I do, however, realize that this would be dangerous to Empeg Ltd. You could basically turn an iPaq with a PCMCIA hard disk into an iPod killer. What I'm trying to say is, I think an empeg disro would be harmful to Empeg Ltd. since there are many devices it could probably run on. I don't think the guys at empeg or SB would be too happy about the distro idea.

The first thing I did after getting my empeg was to install debian on it.
Has been running for over two years now.
No problems. And apt-get install works perfectly.

Only annoying thing is to rework the init step everytime I upgrade
the player software,
but that might be solved once the open player is working ... better.

chroot is your friend.

Now if I only could upgrade the RAM

Umm... Unless I'm crazy, it seems to me the Empeg car player software has no chance of supporting the iPaq's hardware. I'm pretty sure the empeg display, soundcard, mixer, DSP, etc. are all unique to the Empeg. Since we don't have the source to the player binaries, I don't think there's any way to get them to run on something else, regardless of the fact that they're both ARM platforms.

So I don't see why SonicBlue would have any issue with this...

You don't really need the hardware to be supported directly. Install X windows with a VNC client and XMMS and your interface problems are solved.

If that's out of the question, I'll just shut up now. But, I have been giving this a good amount of though without actually taking action.

Distributing the player software isn't permitted (this has been discussed before!). I won't rehash the issues now, suffice to say that our proprietry software can only be distributed only by SB.

Of course you can do what you like with the GPL components (within the terms of the license).

Rob

? The player accesses the hardware via the kernel drivers. The player wouldn't initialise properly if the hardware wasn't present. Some of the functionality is built into the hardware so it isn't that easy to rip out. The volume and eq controls for one.

In theory you could make an set of kernel drivers for the iPaq that would emulate the empeg but that would be quite a lot of work...

- Trevor

Damn.

Okay, then would it be possible for you guys to release a package with just the proprietary stuff (the player software) without the need to flash the kernel, overwrite everyone's root partitions, etc? Something as simple as a tarball of the /empeg directory would probably suffice... This would allow us to keep our environments intact... Of course, it would be understood that this "player only" package is completely unsupported and could be incompatible with our existing setups, but it would allow us a lot of flexibility for laying down a standard empeg distribution/filesystem setup and then putting the player software on as we go.

How bout a program that would build a .upgrade file from the official SB .upgrade. It could also allow you to select what apps to install on your empeg. That way, there are no legal issues with distribution. Other successfull programs like 98lite do this to avoid the same issues.

In this application, all that would be required is extracting the player binaries from the official .upgrade file and inserting them into the new distribution. Then compiling a .upgrade file with that distro, all on the end user's computer.

With a .upgrade builder, you can still control the install locations and scripts for all the apps, as well as make it easy for those in linux-newbie-land to upgrade their player.

Do you think the suits at SB would have issues with that Rob?

Ahh.. I like the way you're thinking. hm. This would seem to avoid any legal problems, since we wouldn't be "distributing" the player binaries at all. This would be a neat option...

Do you think the suits at SB would have issues with that Rob?

OT: Rob, do you wear a suit to work?

Shouldn't be that hard to do... May have a crack at it later (Man, do I have so many on going projects or what? )

- Trevor

you mean he doesn't dress like the avitar picture.

Do you think the suits at SB would have issues with that Rob?

I'm not speaking on behalf of the company here, but I don't see how that could be a problem.

Rob

Rob, do you wear a suit to work?

Yes, whenever hell freezes over I do.

Rob

People who find suits uncomfortable don't own a suit that actually fits. This is only a physical statement however, I'm sure some find suits emotionally uncomfortable.

I mostly agree, although when the temperature gets above 18 degrees I am not a fan of clothing in general. Okay, this is pretty rare in Scotland.

Luckily, being a techy type, I'm one of the very few people in my firm who can get away with dressing eccentrically;-)

Your post seemed most strange until I realized you were refering to Celsius temperatures.

Aye - we'll not be used to that there modern numbers, like degrees Frankenstein.

I mostly agree, although when the temperature gets above 18 degrees I am not a fan of clothing in general. Okay, this is pretty rare in Scotland.

Okay, let's see.

(18 * 9/5) + 32 = 64.4

You get hot at that temperature???? Just for reference, until yesterday, it had been averaging, at a guess, about 92 degrees Fahrenheit outside for at least three weeks, and down to about 72 degrees in the dead of night. Some days more some days less. That works out to ((92 - 32) * 5/9 =) 33.3 Celsius and ((72 - 32) * 5/9 =) 22.2 Celsius.

Sounds like I need to move to Scotland. Of course, it has barely rained here in three weeks, too.

Count your blessings.

Over here, we've had a whooping average of about seven (7!) days of sun, with only one day being "scorching hot" this whole summer. Oh, and it rains all the time too. Ugh!

I'm telling you : summers over here are never really all that much, but this really has to be the worst summer I've ever known.
I've never been the travelling type, but now I'm seriously considering a last minute booking. Don't really care where to, it just needs to be sunny over there. (and bearable - so don't try to be smart suggesting the sahara )

Well, in addition to there not being much to do, it's unbearably hot here, so don't even think about it. I mean, I'd be okay if it were simply 92 degrees all the time if the humidity were reasonable, but the dewpoint is hanging around 72 degrees. I don't know how your weather guys report humidity over there, but that means that dew will start forming (that is, the air becomes completely saturated with water) at 72 degrees. That means that the ``relative humidity'' (the other, semi-bogus term they use here) is about 52%.

Which also means that it's often not sunny. There's so much water in the atmosphere that it's hazy most of the time. Unbearably bright, but hazy.

Ah, I know what you mean. We have the same weathertype over here.
When (and I do say "when" ) it gets hot, it's usually not "dry heat". No, it's more the "every movement you make will make you sweat like a pig"-kind of heat.
Because of this, temperatures of 30-35° centigrade are already unbearable.

I really hate that kind of warmth. But I've gotten so sick and tired of all the rain I've seen lately, I would do almost anything to see the sun for a change. Even if that means very humid heat.

I could highly recomment Tasmania, aside from the fact it's the middle of winter now and I believe the weather isn't much better. That said, when I went in February/April this year (summer for them upside down folk), it was fantastic. The hottest it got was about 35 deg. C, but that coincided with a humidity of about 23% so was quite bearable. It averaged about 27 degrees with 35-40% humidity almost all the time I was there, and the beaches were fantastic. Food's nice, too.

I find that I feel too hot in the UK when it goes above about 18-19 degrees, but I'm told I'm wierd For heaven's sake, just because I consider a shirt-sleeve environment to be 13-15 degrees, and sleep best when it's about 10 or so, people call me strange! They should try coolish weather, like when I was fixing my car in my families garage in ontario last christmas. It was about -8, and after 10 minutes of heaving on the wheelbrace I had to take my coat off because I was sweating to death.

pca

Absolutely, I wasn't thinking of physical issues.

Rob

Just had a chat with may father, who is currently flying oil workers around Algeria and he says it's 50 degrees where he is (that's 50 centigrade) and 62 degrees centigrade about 70 miles south of him.

Now that is scary.

Wow! Now that's just a little bit too much! There's not much use in travelling to see the sun and when you get there having to hide fom it all day.

Actually, Tazzy as PCA describes it sounds quite tempting. (thanks for the hint Patrick!). I really must remember that next winter. It's one of those places people over here normally don't consider for their travels.
Which makes it all the more tempting because I believe that that means it won't be infected with lots of tourists (yet?)

Damn you people! Get out of my thread!

It's one of those places people over here normally don't consider for their travels

I had a long chat with a fellow who was on the local tourist board down south in Tasmania, and he said that for some reason, while lots of americans go to Australia, less than 4% end up in Tas. That compares to more than 40% of both the british and the germans, both of whom go there more than any other nationality. He had no idea why.

pca

Damn you people! Get out of my thread!

But it's so nice and comfy over here!

That's what you get when people start talking about the weather!
Human nature I guess...

I have no idea how many Belgians end up in Tazzy each year, but I don't expect it to be very many.
But that's also part of the attraction : getting to know other people then one's own coutrymen. (Benidorm is definitely not for me, it's like going to SeaBruges, except the weather is better)
I don't really care where I end up : as long as English or French is commonly spoken and the hygiene is up to a certain point (meaning they actually know toilets ) I'm golden.

Well, Tassy isn't the place for you I guess. Unless you like a country with really boring landscapes , overcrowded and polluted beaches , dribbly little streams , pathetic plant life , and ugly skittish animals that you can't get close to. Not to mention the urban sprawls full of tourists.

And of course, one can't get away from the drunks...

pca

Hmmm, I see what you mean...

Dang! Guess it's off to Lloret de Mar again!

(btw : Tazzy is now most definitely in my Top3 of "places I want to see in my life" Thanks very much for the beautiful pics!)

I've got hundreds of them I took about 2GB of 2K x 1.5K pics while I was there.

pca

And of course, one can't get away from the drunks...

Yeah, they're all over here, too...

How bout a program that would build a .upgrade file from the official SB .upgrade. It could also allow you to select what apps to install on your empeg.

This sounds like a great idea. Unfortunately, the vast majority of the software distributed in the .upgrade file is in the form of an ext2 filesystem image. In order to make a new .upgrade file that contained additional or different software, you'd have to be able to create populated ext2 filesystem images. While this is trivial on most Linux machines (through the use of the loop device), it would be nigh impossible on Windows machines, which would be the most significant part of the target audience for such a monster.

Oh, come on, it's just ones and zeroes, how hard could it be?

"Oh, come on, it's just ones and zeroes, how hard could it be?"

It's the order of them that's the tricky bit...

-Zeke

Explore2fs is quite a neat program if you want to quickly access a ext2 partition from Windows. Write support isn't guaranteed to work so it may hose your partition though

- Trevor

Well for those of us with Linux boxen, how far are we from being able to do this? Obviously the program for selecting/customizing user apps would have to be written, but are most of the other ingredients there? Anyone feel like tackling this?

For those with Linux boxes, it should be fairly trivial.

I'm working on getting RAID1 working and it looks like the only way to make it work will be to modify the initrd filesystem, which means I'll have to make a new .upgrade, as I'm not aware of any other facility for uploading it, as it resides in flash (I think).

So once I get that working, I'll let you know some specific steps. However, you should be able to use Sven's UpgradeSplitterBuilder to generate one (although I haven't gotten to the point of actually trying yet). Read the man page for losetup and the ``-o loop'' parts of the man page for mount for some more information about generating the filesystem image.

Hi,

I played around with this for a while,
it's not finished, but it's a start and I'll take a few days off,
so if anyone wants to move on, feel free ....

This is untested (I don't have any machine with a serial port ),
but it should work ... so far.

Obviously S00postinstall still needs to be written,
but you can save some time using this.

anti

ps:
I hope when I come back, somebody has made this usable

Hmmm. I wasn't aware of the e2tools you're using there. It might be possible to compile those up for Win32 systems, in which case, this might all be possible for Windows users, too. I'll give it a shot in a while.

I tried compiling e2tools up with mingw, but I couldn't make it happen. If someone else can get them going under Windows, it would be a great benefit to the empeg community.

Okay, compiled it and e2tools for Windows is now here

YMMV

- Trevor

e2cp (probably the most important utility for us) seems to corrupt the filesystem, but I'll keep trying.

It worked when I tested it. How big is the file you're trying to copy?

- Trevor

512 bytes or so. On the other hand, I am taking e2ls's word for it that it became corrupted (whereas it worked before the e2cp). It might actually work in real life, though.

Edit: It is probably relevant to point out that I'm trying to copy a file from my local Windows filesystem (the README.txt that you included, in fact) to a file containing an e2fs, as opposed to solely internal e2fs copying.

Hmm.... There is definately something funny going on here... It works perfectly when I try it. Anybody else want to have a go?

This is what I get from trying to add a file to the beta13 upgrade FS image.

> C:\e2tools>e2ls pump
> bin dev drive0 drive1 empeg etc lib
> lost+found mnt proc sbin swapfile tmp usr
> var
>
> C:\e2tools>e2cp README.txt pump:
>
> C:\e2tools>e2ls pump
> README.txt bin dev drive0 drive1 empeg etc
> lib lost+found mnt proc sbin swapfile tmp
> usr var
>
> C:\e2tools>e2tail pump:README.txt
> Use filename:/directory/file to specify which file to work on
>
> YMMV
>
> - Trevor <[email protected]>

- Trevor

I think e2cp is corrupting things for me too... Here's what I did:

C:\temp\e2tools_win>e2ls hda5

bin        dev        drive0     drive1     empeg      etc        lib

lost+found mnt        proc       readme     sbin       swapfile   tmp

usr        var



C:\temp\e2tools_win>e2cp README.txt hda5:/



C:\temp\e2tools_win>e2tail hda5:/README.txt

Attempt to read block from filesystem resulted in short read

Attempt to read block from filesystem resulted in short read: hda5

.

The hda5 file seemed fine until I ran an e2cp on it, then I get the "short read" error and e2tail, e2ls, etc. all fail. Seems like the file got corrupted somehow by e2cp.

That's exactly what I get. I should have been more explicit.

Edit:
Later, I tried to mount it on a Linux machine and got the following error:

EXT2-fs error (device loop(7,0)): ext2_readdir: bad entry in directory #2: rec_len is too small for name_len - offset=24, inode=11, rec_len=20, name_len=13

I also tried copy to a subdirectory, and it turns out that it made that directory unviewable. So it seems to be corrupting the directory data, possibly amongst other data.

More to come....

It also turns out that running it through fsck after e2cp'ing to it (but before mounting) loses data and doesn't even attach anything to lost+found.

What could possibly be different about your system, tman?

Bizarre, I've followed yn0t_'s steps exactly and it works for me... I'll have to try it on another system here.

I've got no idea what is different between my install and everybody elses. Probably not a good idea to use it at the moment until I have a look at it.

- Trevor