Possible alternate source for VFD

Not as cheap as empeg support but atleast they are out there.

Having a bit of a browse as you do i found this page
http://www.noritake-elec.com/selection_guide.htm
search for MN12832E points to GU128X32
Found another page
http://www.controlanything.com/html/micros.htm
search for GU128x32-800-DO.
$148 so not that cheap, but available.

This board has a MN12832E/J fitted so if desperate this may be an option to aquire a vfd.

Also found another MP3 player that use's the same display.
http://www.dvhart.com/projects.php



C.

The GU is just a PCB with controller, PSU, and -J display on there, I believe. Not a lot of help if you just want the display.

You *can* buy them from Itron (at least in the UK) for about the same as support sell them for. They take personal credit cards and have no problem with dealing with individuals as far as I know.

Hugo

Other folks have reported that Itron is out of them and have no plans to make more until they get a large single order. Unless you know differently.

Dude, that MP3 player at dvhart.com looks WAY too much like an empeg...

Wow, you're right. Looks like a crappy hack-job copy of an empeg with more buttons.

It sure would be nice to have that many buttons on occasion, though...

What is it about homebrew hardware and clear perspex? If the insides didn't look very tidy then I definately wouldn't want to show it!

- Trevor

Ooo-err. Hadn't heard that (I didn't do a lot of catching up whilst I was away).

A J may well fit, but you would probably require some creative bending of the legs in order to get the display to both connect electrically and also clear the chips underneath it. YMMV.

Electrically, they're identical. Physically, I think the nipple clears the rotary just as much as it does on the normal product except above the control as opposed to below it.

Hmmm. Come to think of it, Patrick could do an alternate display board - maybe a few more buttons, more snazzy illumination options, -J display support, etc. That'd be cute.

Hugo

Hmmm. Come to think of it, Patrick could do an alternate display board - maybe a few more buttons, more snazzy illumination options, -J display support, etc. That'd be cute

Quite happy to do so, but how many people would want one? It would require a new fascia if there were more buttons.

pca

If I were to buy something like this, I would probably want a large colour display, making the Empeg double-din (double-dine?) height

Or, how about a blanking plate for the Empeg and a seperate double-din display/button fascia. Could even use bluetooth for connection!

OOOOO!!!! Me! Me! Me! Me!

Extra buttons would come in handy, but not too much of them obviously so it doesn't become overcrowded like on some HU's by well-known brands.
I plan on getting one of 303's new fascia's anyway, so that wouldn't hold me back.

I must say I find it incredible how much people are willing to engage themselves in keeping the Empeg alive : facia's, docking stations, updates to the code which gives new features on a regular basis, lenses, digital out boards, illuminated buttons, the list goes on!

Of course what the Empeg could also use is an updated version of it's motherboard, with added USB 2.0 and/or firewire, 100 base-T ethernet, bluetooth, digital out, maybe even support for a colour display ?
/*ducks*

Reminds me of the Axe joke:

"This is a very old axe. It belonged to George Washington... But it got old, so I replaced the head and the handle. <laughter>. It occupies the same space."

- Michael Davis, Juggler/Comedian

Also raises some interesting philosophical questions.

Well, I was only half kidding...

As long as it supports button illumination, and the kit includes the buttons to cope with this that would be majorly cool.

A plug'n'go replacement?

How about using a 160X32 instead of the 128X32 if we are thinking of replacing the display board as well.
They are pinned different but are part of the same range so i would expect them to be fairly compatible.

Color would be good , Would be more interested in a new motherboard.

C.

I'm happy with the present display board, but if a new one were offered, I'd like it to have five new buttons spread across under the display.

But what I *really* want is a faster ethernet interface -- 100BaseT instead of 10, which might require a mainboard swap... we might find more takers for a mainboard swap than for a new displayboard. Or would we?

I wonder if Empeg Towers might consider doing just a new mainboard? I wonder what it would cost?

Cheers

Yes, with 100mbps ethernet, USB2, 802.11g and bluetooth. I'd buy that in a heartbeat.

same here... Maybe a poll is in order?

I imagine we're probably talking about something that costs in excess of $300, judging from the cost of the tuner kits...but well worth it in my opinion.

If Patrick could be persuaded to create a new motherboard for your Empeg (with more ram, 100bast-T ethernet, USB 2.0 and/or firewire, maybe even digital out and an option for a colour display, would you be interested in buying it?
Yes, I'd like 1
Yes, I'd like 2 of them
Yes, I'd like 3 of them and maybe even more than that!
No, not interested, my Empeg is fine as it is

I would think you may be talking closer to $1000 a board, after you figure in board design, prototypes, testing, components, assembly, new SW to drive it, all split over 500 to 1000 boards.

Remember the MK1 and MK2 when they were released were around $1500, and I am guessing that the cost of the metalwork, display and hard disk wasn't the expensive bit.

None of the above. I just want fast ethernet.

Cheers

I'll bet a hefty chunk of the original cost was in the mechanicals and drives, and much less so on the main circuitboard. And a minimal respin of that board ought to be much cheaper in R&D than creating the original from scratch once was..

Cheers

Agreed, but I guess that implementing that into the current motherboard would ask for such drastic changes that creation of an entirely new motherboard would probably be the easier.
And while creating a entirely new motherboard, he might as well throw in a few extras.

I am sure you are right, but I think I remember Hugo saying they only had 10mbps ethernet as it was easier to design a board with ISA rather than the PCI style bus that would be needed to do 100mbps, so switching to PCI sounds like a little more than a minimal respin.

Of course there is the design for pearl floating somewhere around Cambridge, maybe they can just modify that and get a board out for much less money.

And a minimal respin of that board ought to be much cheaper in R&D than creating the original from scratch once was..

Unfortunately, a minimal respin isn't going to get you 100Mbit Ethernet. Even if someone could dig up a non-PCI fast Ethernet controller, the car-player does not have enough bandwidth in through Ethernet through the CPU and out to disk over PIO to saturate 10Mbit, let alone 100Mbit, and you would see no increase in transfer speeds.

Peter

Current .mp3 upload speed seems to max out at around 6mb/sec.

I know the IDE subsystem is much faster than that.

And there are now lots of chips designed for embedded applications that can do 100BaseTX -- including this one, which sports an ARM compatible interface: http://www.smsc.com/main/catalog/lan91c111.html

Cheers

I know the IDE subsystem is much faster than that.

Yes, the IDE subsystem can manage 4Mbytes/sec to the 20Gb drive I tried it with. And the network subsystem can indeed saturate 10Mbit/sec (say 1100Kbytes/sec) when reading to memory. Trying to do both things at once, though, is what slows down the overall throughput to, at peak, 800Kbytes/sec.

Peter

sounds more like we're talking about empg mk3 here.

Perhaps the arm sa1100 can be replaced with the new arm4 (aka PXA250 (or the new 255)). Not sure if that supports a faster bus or not, but could do.

I'd imagine adding more memory is the only feasible thing that could be done with the currentl board

No such thing as an ARM4, We went from ARM3 -ARM6.

The others are CPU's are XScale.

C.

If the player was able to manage the database like emplode you could have a 'for sync' directory on the drive, then plug the drive into your PC (in linux) and copy mp3's straight to the drive at high speed, next time you start player it see's mp3's in the 'for sync' directory and moves them to where it wants them and updates the database. This would remove the necessity of fast ethernet (Of course you have to remove the drive - but hey, you've already removed the empeg from your car).

Adrian

The IDE isn't very fast on the SA1100 as the cycles are fairly long. The SA1110 helps a bit (hence why the Rio Central has faster IDE than the carplayer).

Given a PXA255 like I have on my desk here, I can get more like 8mbytes/sec via PIO simply due to better timing options in the chips IO block. Even more with DMA

Ethernet can be done by the SMSC chip without many problems, but there aren't "lots of" non-PCI 100mbit chips; the SMSC one was the only one I found, last time I looked.

The best solution would likely be something like the Cirrus 9312, if it ever comes out. It has (onboard) IDE-DMA, 100mbit ethernet, USB host, etc. Again, I have one of these on my desk, but it's an old rev and was very buggy (and it's already 2 years late) - it also may not drive the VFD without some hackery.

A PXA would be nice for outright speed (400 vs 200MHz of the Cirrus), and ARM9E extensions (for audio algorithms), but you then need to add ethernet & a USB host chip.

The big issues are:

- 4-channel audio out. Use a DSP or just do it all in software with 2 stereo DACs? If you go this route, what will do the FM MPX/RDS decode as well as the DSP? Going the other way, I don't know how many software changes would be required to get the latest (ie, only available) philips DSP working.

- Software support. It's likely that we'll aim for a 2.4 kernel in 3.0, to ease things like ext3, but there's still going to be far more work involved than could get done in spare time.

- Cost. Both CPUs are BGA, so "kit form" is going to be out. It's likely to be spendy.

Hugo

I can't really understand the desire for a 100TX ethernet port...sure, I can understand that when initially loading a blank player it would make a huge difference. And I can also understand that drive upgrades would be significantly faster. But for daily/weekly music uploads I can't see that alone worth the expense of a new mainboard.

Supposing that a new mainboard were to be made with all the other desired features, then that would still be wasteful - the old board which works so well would be thrown out. And there'd still be many issues such as retrofitting additional docking connectors for firewire/LCD/etc. to both the case and the sled. And if you were also replacing the display, then what remains the same? Wouldn't it make more sense to build a wholly new unit, and leave the old one alone? (Therefore having the option of selling it and recouping some cash)

I'd rather see the money spent on an ethernet-based extender that drives a 640x480 LCD touchscreen (or non-touchscreen with surrounding buttons), and also provides addtional IO support (especially RS232 serial).

you have to remove the drive - but hey, you've already removed the empeg from your car

Not to mention that you've somehow got to connect it to your PC. Products that do this tend to give you a drive bay. They're not usually capable of hot-swap, so you'll need to power-cycle your PC.

I don't know about you, but none of my PCs (including my WinXP box) have been rebooted, let alone powered down, for months. No thanks.

As I recall, we did look into it, but decided that making the drives removable from the player would make it hard to fit two of them in there.

But for daily/weekly music uploads I can't see that alone worth the expense of a new mainboard.

I'm with you there. As neat as 100baseT would be, I don't see myself needing it. Not for the level of difficulty and expense a new mainboard would require.

I agree, to be worth it, the new mainboard would have to be a complete redesign with most of the latest toys on it.

Hugo, it sounds like you've already put a lot of time into thinking about this.

please just let me know when I can order one (or 2)

Quite happy to do so, but how many people would want one?

Count me in. New displayboard or motherboard, whatever you come up with.

none of this bothers me - I'm quite happy with the way my empeg works (Although leaving computers on isn't very eco-friendly ;P ), my point really was that taking the drive out + additional software is a far easier & cheaper task than a motherboard redesign....But it's all academic as none of this is going to happen anyway!

Adrian

(Although leaving computers on isn't very eco-friendly ;P )

Only if I'm not using it. Otherwise, it's no more eco-unfriendly than simply using any device that requires power.

I keep the monitor off when I'm not sitting at it, but it's a unix machine... it's usually doing something regardless of whether I'm a foot from it, 3 floors from it, or an ocean away.

If you would like to copy mp3's directly from your linux PC to your Empeg, you can do so using mp3tofid.
But this is really only useful if you're doing a drive replacement. Getting drives in and out of your
player is way to much fuss to do on a daily basis.

Pim

yeah, I agree - but if you're uploading on a daily basis then I'd assume that you're not actually uploading a massive amount, therefore 100Mbit would be of no consequence - 100 Mbit or taking the drives out would only be of use when uploading a huge amount of data to the drives, ie Paul with his 2 80 Gb drives!

Adrian

Roger said he doesn't switch off any of his PC's, unless he's got a lot of arms he's certainly isn't using them all at the same time! (Unless they're all servers, but *why* would anyone want a windows XP server ;P)

Adrian

Roger said he doesn't switch off any of his PC's, unless he's got a lot of arms he's certainly isn't using them all at the same time! (Unless they're all servers, but *why* would anyone want a windows XP server)

The Windows XP box is my desktop. One of the Linux boxes is my firewall. The other Linux box is my fileserver.

Yet another Linux box is my webserver -- it's colocated somewhere with a fatter pipe, so I can't combine the functionality with one of the boxes at home.

So, no, I don't have that many arms and, no, I'm not using them all at once.

However, I will say this: repeated thermal stress caused by constant on/off cycles increases the risk of premature PC failure. Considering the amount of energy required to build the PC, and the amount of nasty chemicals used in the manufacturing process, I'm probably doing the environment a favour by leaving my PC's on all the time.

You have good reason to have them all on then

I don't think I've ever had a PC die, I once had the PSU in my Acorn Archimedes die and had to be replaced - half the problem with risks of failure is the MTBF rating, afaik which means nothing - it tell's people how many spare parts they should buy in order to keep something running over it's envisaged life - not really how long it is between failures - I saw an article which applied MTBF to an average fit male human, and the MTBF was worked out to be something like 34 years - which is obviosuly not true.

I think we've taken this thread slightly off course!

Adrian

I'm curious to know if you have ever considered an Intel IXP420 network processor? Like the Cirrus you mentioned, it has a some useful stuff built into the chip - 2 x 10/100 Ethernet MACs, USB 1.1, 33/66MHz PCI host, 2 x 921 Kbaud UARTs, etc. And its XScale based (266, 400, or 533MHz).
I'm not sure if there's an FPGA version though.

I think you mean BGA or QFP, FPGA is something completely different!

..while on the subject of XScales, has anyone here got the new zaurus 5600 with the XScale processor? Is it fast? What sort of stuff is it capable of doing?

Adrian

I guess I meant PGA then (Pin Grid Array), assuming BGA in the original post meant Ball Grid Array. I understood the F to mean (Flip-chip) although I'm not sure what that means.

Haven't heard of QFP before. Unfortunately I'm not too familiar with hardware terms. I should stick to what I know.

There is a BGA version of the IXP420. I use it every day in my work.

I didn't know there was an XScale Zaurus out, cool! Must go check that out. Thanks.

ahh...FPGA is Field Programmable Gate Array, you basically download softcores to them, so you could make the chip flash leds, or by the same token download a processor core to it and associated digital perpiherals - often used to test stuff before committing to ASIC (Although FPGA's run a lot slower than asics)...fpgas are quite cool technology.

Adrian

I live on the edge. I have one tiny linux box, a Corel Netwinder, that is my firewall, mail server (in/out), NFS server, SAMBA server, print server, web server, DNS host/server for several domains, remote access host (SSH, VNC, ...), DHCP server, time server (and client from a Stratum-2 outside source), etc..

All in a box that's about the same physical size as an Empeg, and which uses about 50% more power than an Empeg.

But of course I DO have a spare on the shelf, just in case.

Very power-friendly: took very little to make it, takes very little to run it, and it'll be tiny in the landfill when it finally dies.

Cheers

Something that looks like this

Quite happy to do so, but how many people would want one?

I'd buy one!!! Probably two!

As far as the mainboard goes, I'm happy with the speed and such, usb 2.0 would be nice, sure 100mb ethernet would be great. But would I prefer that over a nicer display and a few more buttons... probably not.