volume goes backwards

Okay, it's time to report this, as it hasn't fixed itself =].

This started about 3 weeks + ago. More times than not, when i try and turn the volume down using the knob on my MKII, the volume will "jump" louder then quieter with every few "clicks". It's pretty random and never happens the same way or in in any predictable amount, but it's never more than 5 or so dB. It's really annoying though, and my girlfriend is none to happy about it! heheh. But, i figured (i have no idea why) that a sync and a software upgrade to 1.03 (tuner time) would fix it, but no luck. I don't think the knob is loose or spinning, because you can feel it click as you rotate it, but the volume just seems to skip around and it takes more rotations than it should to get the thing quiet. Oddly enough it doesn't seem to happen when you turn the volume up. Any ideas??


|| loren.cox ||

Definitely e-mail support about that one. I think it's been reported before as a potential defect in the knob (but I'm not sure).

___________
Tony Fabris

emailing support now...

[update]
David Moss emailed me back with a quickness with the following:
"We've heard of this before - sounds like you have a faulty rotary control.
We'll have to get the player in for service."

so i guess it's off for repair once again. And i haven't even gotten to play with the tuner yet!! =]


|| loren.cox ||

David Moss emailed me back with a quickness with the following:
"We've heard of this before - sounds like you have a faulty rotary control.
We'll have to get the player in for service."

Argh. I'm seeing this too and was hoping it's a software issue. It's not bad enough to annoy me yet, hopefully it won't get worse. On the other hand my warranty expires in a couple of days... Best to email support, I guess.

Borislav

I have got this very same problem. The timing is suspiciously the same...Have you guys tried going back to a non-modified kernel and removing other hacks? We should probably post this in the general forum to see if this is happening to others.

-Doug
Mk2-12G Blue (Now A/R Green)

Does this happen at home as well?

I ask because one of the things that can cause the rotary control to appear to misbehave is sending dimmer commands to the display board - the same PIC does the rotary control and dimmer contblrol. If you had a lights-on sense like that was wobbling a bit, it would cause brightness change commands to be sent to the front panel (even if the brightness setting was the same, I think) and that may well upset the rotary control code.

Hugo

I've tried it with unmoded kernels and with the consumer versions, no luck.


|| loren.cox ||

I'll check tonight before i send it off for repair.


|| loren.cox ||

Nope, it definitely does it when on AC power as well. Ah well... time for the 4th trip over the pond.


|| loren.cox ||

Hi,

i have the same problem. It started some weeks (or month?) ago. First i ignored it thinking this is a software-bug, but now i think it's getting worse time after time. Using the remote is no problem, only with the knob...
I still hope, it's software, i don't want to miss my empeg... :-(

Thomas

MK2 blue/red 12GB #815

I hope this is a repair that Hugo documents for us, as I think it might be starting to happen to mine...

___________
Tony Fabris

It's started happening to me as well. Not horribly, but definitely noticable...

Bill B.
Mk.2 SN 080000183 - 38 GB / Green

you guys better get em in before the warranty is up! They fixed mine despite the warranty being up by a few days. If it started happening before the warranty's expiration, i'd guess they'd fix it for you, especially if this is a wide spread problem. It does get worse over time by the way, the longer i waited, the worse it got.


|| loren.cox ||

Grrr, mine's just started doing it to, and I'm pretty sure my warrenty recently expired - have got one of the earlier Mk2s.

(list 6284, Mk1 S/N 00299 4GB blue [for sale]. Mk2 S/N 080000094 26GB blue)

Ditto.
If the repair means replacing the rotary control, we'll need a newer style "keyed" knob to match the Mk2a
style rotary. Right?

Mk2 #105 32g blue, w/tuner

Mine was repaired with a non "keyed" rotary, it was the same on the outside as the older one. They just added the rubber o ring inside the knob, which is unrelated of course.

Wow, seems like this one is a pretty common problem. I wonder how many users that aren't on this board are having this problem and barely notice it or think it's software too.

Like i said, i'd email support with a quickness. =]


|| loren.cox ||

No, you can't fit a keyed control (ie mk2a's control) to a mk2. This is a blessing in disguise, as the mk2a's ALPS controls are hard to get off the shelf, whereas the mk2's rotary encoders (Meggitt) are available off the shelf from farnell.

Swapping the control isn't hard, but does involve some solder braid and delicate work. Units under warranty should be returned to empeg for this.

Hugo

i've tried the rotary in the menu-mode, and sometimes the items change to right when i turned the knob left, so i think, it's really the hardware.
how long was the warranty? 6 or 12 month?

Thomas

MK2 blue/red 12GB #090000815

Wait until v2.00 beta comes out (pretty soon now). We're going to put some code to compensate for the aging of the rotary control into the kernel, and hopefully this should fix the problem for most people. If it still has problems then, let us know and we can do a warranty fix if required.

The basic problem is that switches age and get noisy - we're just not dealing with the noise properly at the moment.

Hugo

12


|| loren.cox ||

Mine's been doing it for the last month or so; I've been ignoring it because I don't want to be without my Empeg:(
-mark

...Still (barely, pending 1.1/2.0/TeAsE release) proud to have owned an Empeg since 00287

In reply to:

---

Mine's been doing it for the last month or so; I've been ignoring it because I don't want to be without my Empeg:(

---

Same here!!

-Doug
Mk2-12G Blue (Now A/R Green)

In fact, for anyone running 2.0-beta3 the following mini-upgrade (it only touches the kernel) should fix the problem. Please reply and let us know if it makes any difference. If a few people who don't have the problem install it as well we can be sure it doesn't cause any side effects.

http://www.empeg.com/downloads/car2-kernel-v2.00-beta3-rotaryfix.upgrade

For the purposes of GPL compliance:

http://www.empeg.com/downloads/car2-kernel-v2.00-beta3-rotaryfix.diff.gz



--
Mike Crowe
I may not be speaking on behalf of empeg above :-)

Side note:

I deliberately had Hyperterminal locked at the com port when I tried the upgrade. The upgrade wizard showed Error "Car player not found" occurred during stage 0x00".
Can you change this error message to a more friendly explanation for the less-technical users out there? Cause the not-found part may upset some people . Just trying to help improve the end user experience!

­­______________
Edwin de Vaan

That would be good. I wouldn't describe myself as a "less-technical" user and I was puzzled for several minutes the other day due to this slightly vague error message. In fact it sounds almost vague enough to be an error message that I tend to put into my software...

__
Unit serial number 47 (was 330 in the queue)...

Loaded it last night. Seems to work fine so far! but since the problem is intermittant I will keep an eye on it and let you know. Thanks

(list 6284, Mk1 S/N 00299 4GB blue [for sale]. Mk2 S/N 080000094 26GB blue)

I've now managed to lay my hands on a player that suffered from this problem and improved yesterday's fix somewhat. You can find an improved version at:

http://www.empeg.com/downloads/car2-kernel-v2.00-beta3-rotaryfix2.upgrade

Patch:

http://www.empeg.com/downloads/car2-kernel-v2.00-beta3-rotaryfix2.diff.gz

Hmm, this one doesn't seem to be working quite as good as the first one on my empeg. Occasionally makes quite big jumps.

Will keep running it for a bit and see how it goes.

I've a question about repairs after the warranty has expired. In The Netherlands we have a law (but common sense would also say this) that says that a vendor is responsible for keeping a product in good working order for a reasonable amount of time, regardless of whether the warranty has expired or not.

In other words, in a case like this, empeg (if it were a Dutch company) would have to fix the rotary control at no cost even if it broke after the warranty has expired, since it's a vital component and a customer can reasonably expect it to work for many years (at least much longer than one year).

Is there a similar law in the United Kingdom? What's empeg's / SonicBlue's position on this? In this specific case, would I have to pay to have the rotary control repaired if it broke after a year and a half?

Hmm, this one doesn't seem to be working quite as good as the first one on my empeg. Occasionally makes quite big jumps.

Maybe I've tightened up the timing too much. Could you make it happen at all on the previous one?

No, didn't notice it on the previous one. Will try and find some time to have a good play with them both. As the problem is a little intermittant it could take a little time to give it a good test through. Have had a busy weekend (visitors) so haven't really had a chance to check the new one again properly.

I've lengthened the glitch timeout from 1/20th second to 1/8th second to see if it helps Derek and anyone else. You can download the upgrade from:

http://www.empeg.com/downloads/car2-kernel-v2.00-beta3-rotaryfix3.upgrade

Patch (from v2.00-beta3):

http://www.empeg.com/downloads/car2-kernel-v2.00-beta3-rotaryfix3.diff.gz

If anyone is suffering from this problem and has the ability to compile their own kernels I'd be interested in knowing what divisor of HZ in the declaration of ROTARY_GLITCH_TIMEOUT_JIFFIES works best for you.

That's insane! At any rate, what's been discussed before involves unofficial support from the empeg team, so you'd presumably have to pay for it.

Mmm, I'm sure that isn't a UK law; are you sure the law is not that they have to offer to fix it (ie, have the capability), but may charge you for it when out of warranty?

As stated, the law would seem to mean that if you had a washing machine that broke down out of warranty then it'd have to get fixed for free...

Yes, if your control broke out of warranty then it would be a chargeable repair, as it would with any such product. The kernel patches posted here by mike are an attempt to resolve the issue in software; it's not that the control is broken, it's just that as they get older, they age (as with any switch) and you get "noise" on the rotary signals.

Hugo

Mmm, I'm sure that isn't a UK law; are you sure the law is not that they have to offer to fix it (ie, have the capability), but may charge you for it when out of warranty?

I think it's one of those things that's up to a judge to decide what is "reasonable" if there's a dispute. Since most consumer electronics have a very short warranty period (90 days for most of the stuff I've seen), I'm sure that your one-year warranty would be considered more than reasonable by any judge.

In the US, we have something equivalent, called "lemon laws", which (if I understand it correctly) are mainly meant to prevent fly-by-night organizations from dumping a bunch of useless crap on the market and hiding behind a limited warranty term to protect themselves.

It's not the kind of thing empeg needs to worry about, I don't think, since you guys make a quality product and are very good about backing it up. I don't get the feeling you guys would quibble over a calendar date if the product had a genuine defect.

Nope, they have to fix it for free. Of course, 'reasonable' is a very vague term, so in practice most vendors will refuse to repair something for free after the warranty has expired because they know no one will go though the trouble of a court case to make them do it...

Yes, if a washing machine broke in a fundamental way (i.e. it doesn't clean your clothes anymore) and it isn't your own fault or caused by outside influences and it's a lot earlier than it could reasonably be expected to break from old age (say one month after the warranty has expired), your vendor would have to have it repaired for free.

Of course a good vendor would do that anyway, regardless of what the law says.

/Pepijn

Does the issue have anything to do with the amount of use the rotary encoder gets?
or does this also happen even if you don't use the rotary control and just use the remote & stalk.

Cheers,
Jaidev

Some notebook series we repair have known minor defects, discovered after manufacture and also discovered after these notebooks have been sold to the end user, not recalled. So say Compaq has an issue with one of their (old) series the LCD screen all of a sudden goes white intermittently during startup. Now if a notebook comes in for repair and is out of warranty for another totally different issue, or this particullar issue, Compaq honors the warranty since this is a known defect. These LCD screens run in cost of about $1500.

cheers,
Jaidev

It's the amount of use it gets, mainly. There is probably an issue with the normal tarnishing of contacts too, which happens over time, but I suspect we're talking about a much longer time period for that (like 5 years at least, depending on the atmosphere).

Hugo

I've had no feedback from this at all. Is this because it works perfectly? It doesn't work at all? Maybe everyone has given up on v2.0-beta3 and gone back to v1.03?

Yeah, who's been having the trouble with the knob? Speak up!

I know I was having a SLIGHT bit of trouble with the knob, but not enough to be sure if your new timings really solved it or not. I know I haven't had any trouble with the new timings as far as regular operation is concerned, so I know that the timings at least didn't make things worse for the rest of us. I haven't seen the volume jump since 2.0b3.

I have this problem on a brand new Mk2a, but I have only just started using the timing fix patch today (as part of the latest hijack kernel) so I can't comment yet.

Sorry, have been busy and wanted to give fix2 a proper check out before trying fix3. Actually had fix2 jump backwards the other day, so upgraded to fix3. Sitll not sure if I am happy with it - haven't had much time for any empeging lately . Will let you know as soon as I am happy (or not) with it

Since installing a recent hijack kernel, with the knob fix I haven't noticed the problem reoccuring.

I guess next time the designers oughta use an optical dial for longer life.

Yep, there's a rule in engineering: if it's mechanical try and find another way of doing it 'cause it's going to break some time!

Yes, but optical rotary encoders are generally a different kettle of fish - ie, they're much rarer, maybe 5x more expensive, and usually much bigger than the electromechanical ones.

Great for home stereos with the smooth "endless" rotary controls, but not good if you have <5mm of height above the PCB to fit the switch body into!

Hugo

Sorry Hugo, wasn't criticising your choice. Was just stating a law of nature.

Just tested the rotaryfix3. It's not perfect but far good enough to live with. I can notice very few jumps in the wrong direction, but i could discover them only in menu-mode, using rotary for left/right. In volume-mode it's not noticeable. Let's hope, the timing would match if the rotary-control gets worse in future.

Thanx for doing it in software, so i can keep my player....

Even with a new rotary control how long will that one last? or are they using a different part to the origonal.

I've only had mine 6 or 7 mounths and it's started doing it.

Mpcheese, what version of the player software are you running?

If you are using version 2.0 beta 13, you should not be having any trouble with your rotary control. If you are having trouble, please contact support.

Note that this is a very old thread, no one has been reporting rotary control troubles recently since there was new software released that fixed the problems.