I quite like them both actually, but for web development. Coupled with PHP on the back end and you have the tools to achieve all manners of web goodness. I'm not really keep on the idea of using those tools as general-purpose application development platforms. In this case something like Flash is going to help a product like the Pre.

I don't like Flash on the web though.



That was a time-buying move by Apple while they worked out the SDK (which was coming all along). But not part of what we're talking about in this thread which is really about Flash in the browser and how I'd like to not see it on the iPhone.