Originally Posted By: Dignan
I'm not sure I follow your price calculations, because you're comparing to the Sonos amp products, which are not only the most expensive zone players, but also don't even include the price of the speakers you would have to attach to them. I think I missed something about your setup and cost comparisons.

You're right. In my own setup, I basically only need the amplified stand alone boxes, because I've put speakers in all of my ceilings. So I don't need the Play 3 or 5, but those are indeed cheaper. I forgot about those, because those are no good for my intended setup. If you take those into account, I guess it's still cheaper to go Sonos, but not by much.

Originally Posted By: Dignan

What kind of home automation are you running? I don't think I've seen you talk about that here before. I'm a home automation nut!

I'm currently busy installing a Loxone. Most likely completely unknown in the US, but that'll probably change in the very near future. It's a startup company, now about 5 years old. But they are expanding like crazy throughout Europe and it's not very hard to think why that is. They offer a VERY good product, at an incredible price.

In fact, they even have Sonos support. They are the only ones that do that. I know I said Sonos doesn't co-operate with audio integrators, and that still is true. I had the chance to talk to the founder of this company, a very intelligent guy. He told me he had to reverse engineer the entire protocol to be able to put Sonos support into his product. It was a tremendous amount of work he said, and in hindsight, he doesn't think he'd do it again. But he did, and now it's in there, albeit basic, but sufficient for most stuff. smile

You know, in Belgium, more than 60 different home automation systems are available. 60! And they all have one thing in common : they are all proprietary and not compatible with other systems. In other words: if the manufacturer for some reason changes something, or ceases support (which has been known to happen), you're SOL. I don't believe this is a small risk or to be taken lightly, because, contrary to a PC or other computer based systems, this is integrated into your house, and more than likely is meant to last a (few) decade(s) before getting upgraded. Long-term support is crucial here.

In fact, there is only ONE system that does not have this problem, and that's EIB/KNX.. KNX is very different from all other systems, in that it is a protocol (created by Siemens). It's an organisation and a standard, rather than an entire system. This means that the KNX organisation does not make hardware themselves. Rather there are a couple of hundred manufacturers that make home automation hardware by the KNX standard, and all their hardware is able to work together. This is very nice AND unique! It has other advantages as well, like complete de-centralised setup. Almost all other systems have one central "brain". If that brain for some reason malfunctions, you're toast (and most likely in the dark - quite literally). Not so with KNX : because of the decentralised setup, if one component fails, then only the functions of that specific component cease to function. KNX is also VERY powerful. There are KNX projects out there that contain 50.000 modules or more. (the typical home setup usually has no more than 20 to 30!) This all is possible with KNX, because of the decentralised setup. Since every component has its own tiny CPU, everything can be expended endlessly, and there is no risk of the system slowing down and crashing under it's own weight.

Of course, KNX has downsides as well. For one, setting it up is A LOT harder than most other systems (because of the decentralised setup). It's not something you can just look at for 10 minutes and then have a go at. You will need training for this. Second, the cost is easily twice to three time the cost of any other home automation system. This is also because as said, every component has its own tiny CPU, and this increases the complexity of the system and thus the cost of the components. Also, since all manufacturers that make KNX components have to pay licence fees to the KNX corporation, that needs to be taken into account as well. Heck, the programming software itself costs more than 1000 euro for a licence for 1 PC!
So it's a good system, VERY solid, bug-free and tested, but it's terribly expensive.

Enter Loxone. Loxone is the first and currently still only system that combines the strengths of KNX, but without the cost. It actually has a KNX interface, and it can connect to KNX hardware, and command it. But unlike KNX, it's a centrally controlled system, but that's not a problem in the "small setups" that consumer houses are. (but it's perfectly happy with larger projects as well... in Germany there is only hospital and a few hotels that run entirely on pure Loxone systems) Loxone does have it's own (very good and capable) modules as well: relays, dimmer modules, EnOcean, DMX, RS485 and RS232, Infrared, 1wire,... at incredibly competitive prices. BUT, if you want to for some reason, (like the fail-safeness of KNX) you can also perfectly use KNX hardware. That way, Loxone could do all the logical functions and act as the brain of your KNX system. And all at an incredible price! (only 500 euro for the main module, the miniserver!) Loxone offers very good programming tools that are not hard to understand because they are entirely graphical. But, best of all, the software is included into the price of the miniserver! It has iOS and Android apps. It can also be controlled through any and every browser. You can control it from home or away. You can connect IP camera's to it and use it as a home surveillance system. Basically everything is possible. They have their own sensors for 95% of the most common uses in home automation. But should you need a very specific thing, like eg. an underground humidity sensor, to know when your grass it too dry, to start the watering system if needed, there are KNX sensors that do that. And, as said, Loxone is completely KNX compatible.

I'm very excited to setup this system into my home. I'm sure it'll be hours of fun! smile
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