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#156866 - 23/04/2003 19:15 Casting of fascia & clear buttons
Casting_Fool
new poster

Registered: 23/04/2003
Posts: 18
Hi All,

My name is Mike, and I'm a professional sculptor/caster (though I prefer the label "toymaker"). My company is Casting Fool & Son, located in the sunny state of Georgia, USA.

I was recently approached by a forum member who expressed interest in CF&Son producing a limited number of fascia and clear/tinted buttons for use in applications similar to Brian's excellent conversion.

I've scanned through the threads related to the fascia/button issues, and there seems to be a great deal of excitement related to this topic.

To those having problems with bubbles, I recommend that you try visiting www.alumilite.com and read through their website and FAQ's. In short form, you need to set up a pressure chamber for the actual casting. (The resin can be vacuum cured, but the mold will need a large reservoir for the resin as it expands out of the mold and collapses back.)

Vacuuming the newly mixed resin will help to eliminate some of the bubbles, but unless you spin cast (more expensive than a pressure setup) or pressure cast the resin-filled molds, you will probably not eliminate all of the bubbles from your finished castings.

Keep in mind that you absolutely MUST vacuum the uncured RTV silicone used for the molds if you intend to pressure cast with the mold. Alternately, you can pressure cure the mold, but I've always found vacuuming the RTV much simpler and it keeps my pressure chamber free for casting. BTW, you need to get your vacuum down close to 29" Hg to really get the air out of the RTV.

Also, depending on your choice of resins, you may have to post heat cure clear castings for 5 to 16 hours depending on the type of resin. If you don't do this, the resin will never reach it's full hardness. Read through and completely follow the instructions that come with your choice of resins.

I have to research several issues before I can consider committing to this project: 1. The infamous copyright issues (my own policies on this are very strict), and 2. Will there be enough sales to justify the investment (normally a project of this type would involve $1000.00 -$2000.00 to set up.)

If there was enough of an interest and I were to commit to this project, I could be producing fascia and buttons by sometime near the end of June 2003. I would not be providing the electronics, only the fascia and buttons.

Color choice could possibly be left up to the buyer as I can reproduce a large variety of colors, but specific custom matches would insanely increase the price of the set.

For example, the solid (not clear) fascia could be colored to coordinate with the buttons, or (again, for more $) I can permanently metalize the resin fascia with a gold, silver, bronze, copper, or gunmetal finish.

I have this set up to forward any response to this post to my email, as time is tight and I won't be able to spend a lot of time coming back to check this thread.

Should anyone associated with the present owners of the copyrights on this system be listening in, please feel free to drop me a line and point me in the right direction for obtaining a limited license to reproduce the fascia/buttons. Thanks.
_________________________
Mike Jackson Casting Fool & Son Augusta, GA USA http://www.cfnson.com

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#156867 - 23/04/2003 23:34 Re: Casting of fascia & clear buttons [Re: Casting_Fool]
Mach
old hand

Registered: 15/07/2002
Posts: 826
Loc: Texas, USA
I was recently approached by a forum member who expressed interest in CF&Son producing a limited number of fascia and clear/tinted buttons


Ahem, that would be me. I contacted Mike after considering taking a try at casting the fascia and buttons myself. I read about Lopan's recent efforts and contacted him if he was cool with my giving it a go. I'm $200 in at this point and did a hand check. Realistically, even if I get a successful casting, I would have no time to cast them for anyone else due to my job. Personally, I'd like to give something back to the community and this seemed a reasonable way to do so.

Anyone else interested?

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#156868 - 23/04/2003 23:36 Re: Casting of fascia & clear buttons [Re: Casting_Fool]
Mach
old hand

Registered: 15/07/2002
Posts: 826
Loc: Texas, USA
Mike, I'm mostly interested in replacement fascia but depending on the button finishes, I would be interested in those also. As far as counts go, I would probably do 2-3 sets if the colors could be mixed. Could each person get different colors without appreciably increasing the price?

I didn't understand your comments on color matches increasing price. Do you mean matching the original colors?

Thanks for the advice and help.


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#156869 - 23/04/2003 23:52 Re: Casting of fascia & clear buttons [Re: Mach]
Casting_Fool
new poster

Registered: 23/04/2003
Posts: 18
Since I would be casting most of the sets as separate orders, it might be possible to let each customer choose the colors that they want. Just to keep something in stock for spot orders, I'd probably cast a few sets of black fascias and plain clear buttons and set them aside.

A "color match" would be an order that included a sample of the _exact_ color that the customer wanted. The process of color matching resins is a bit of alchemy mixed with science, and takes up considerably more time and materials. Hence more $... actually, lots more $.

If I were to do this project I would cast fascia samples in, say, 8 or so colors and the 5 metalized finishes, offer clear buttons, and clear buttons tinted to coordinate with the fascia colors. It wouldn't be a problem to mix and match the colors, and except for the metalized finishes, it shouldn't change the pricing for a set.

I'm in the market for an upgrade for my network, and a digital camera is part of the package. Hopefully we'll have the catalog (PDF format) up before summer's end, and the pictures can speak their 1000 words. [grin]
_________________________
Mike Jackson Casting Fool & Son Augusta, GA USA http://www.cfnson.com

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#156870 - 24/04/2003 07:35 Re: Casting of fascia & clear buttons [Re: Casting_Fool]
ilDuce
journeyman

Registered: 22/06/2002
Posts: 92
well, I would definetly be interrested in the transparent buttons. I guess the fascia and buttons will be a replica of the original plastic ones?

Allthough, before I can say if I want the fascia or not I would really want to see some photos of the different castings.

Personally I think the biggest downside of the empeg is its fascia and buttons. They give the impression of a cheap second rated carstereo. Allthough its not the design but rather the plastic feel and looks of it. So if I would consider another plastic fascia I would really want to see some pictures before I deside.

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#156871 - 24/04/2003 07:39 Re: Casting of fascia & clear buttons [Re: ilDuce]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
Personally I think the biggest downside of the empeg is its fascia and buttons. They give the impression of a cheap second rated carstereo. Allthough its not the design but rather the plastic feel and looks of it.
And it's not even that it's plastic, but the look of that particular plastic. I mean, most (all?) car stereos have plastic fasciae and buttons, but they have a different appearance. The first things that come to mind are a slightly higher-gloss finish and a vague metallic look that seems to be produced by small metallic flakes in the plastic itself (as opposed to applied after the casting).

Do you (Mike, not Benito) have any way to reproduce those effects?
_________________________
Bitt Faulk

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#156872 - 24/04/2003 08:18 Re: Casting of fascia & clear buttons [Re: Casting_Fool]
Chuck
member

Registered: 06/06/2001
Posts: 183
You can mark me down for 3 sets of knob/buttons! I would prefer a blue and green tint too...

-Chuck

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#156873 - 24/04/2003 08:34 Re: Casting of fascia & clear buttons [Re: Casting_Fool]
Gazz
journeyman

Registered: 09/03/2001
Posts: 71
Loc: Alice Springs - Australia
Yep, Interested in "Translucent" Buttons, prefer Blue. (With no bubbles :-)
What do you mean by replacement Fascia? I guess that would only interest people with broken fascia's, or people who wanted a different color fascia, you might find a lot of interest if a really cool new design Fascia can be cast at a reasonable cost, and still match the original handle.
I remember Empeg had a few different prototypes, could some of those designs be reproduced.

I have been twitching at the thought of 303's brilliant newface but it is expensive.

Actually I have been sitting here checking this thread for a while expecting you to be swamped with interest, come on guy's this may be a chance to get some profesional quality translucent buttons for a reasonable cost.

Gazz.

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#156874 - 24/04/2003 08:49 Re: Casting of fascia & clear buttons [Re: Gazz]
JBjorgen
carpal tunnel

Registered: 19/01/2002
Posts: 3478
Loc: Guadalajara, MX
Color me interested. "VFD teal" color or neon green preferred. Even if I can't do the lighting hack, it'd be great to have the buttons so if I decide to get someone to do it in the future, I'm ready to go.
_________________________
~ John

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#156875 - 24/04/2003 09:23 Re: Casting of fascia & clear buttons [Re: Casting_Fool]
mvigneau
member

Registered: 12/08/2002
Posts: 179
Loc: Manchester, NH
I would be interested in a Red fascia and/or red buttons.

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#156876 - 24/04/2003 09:42 Re: Casting of fascia & clear buttons [Re: Casting_Fool]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31149
Loc: Seattle, WA
What a fantastic post, Casting_Fool. Thanks for all of the information, and for your offer to take on the project.

I have a question, it's been my pet topic in all of these discussions (you might have seen some of my posts on this topic already): What about making buttons which aren't "colored-clear" like Brian's, but which are instead translucent milky white or milky gray, and therefore will diffuse the light better and light up evenly across the surface of the button? I know that Brian experimented with this and didn't have much success. Have you done this sort of thing?

I have a few reasons for wanting this:

1. The original buttons for the player were a shade of medium gray. I think it would be nifty to have buttons which looked similar to the original factory buttons in that respect, yet also glowed when power was applied.

2. I've seen plastic materials used for other types of buttons which allowed for a very "even" light diffusion. For instance, the backlit buttons on a TV remote control (although I realize that's some kind of a silicone rubber rather than a plastic). In these cases, a single LED was enough to light up the entire face of the unit. I'm wondering if the installation of the backlit button hack could be made easier if we didn't have to install as many LEDs.

3. If the buttons were a neutral color (and since we're using white LEDs), then you could change the color of the buttons by putting color over the LEDs instead of needing a whole new button set.
_________________________
Tony Fabris

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#156877 - 24/04/2003 13:19 Re: Casting of fascia & clear buttons [Re: tfabris]
cookie_77
member

Registered: 08/03/2002
Posts: 145
Put me down for a set of buttons , Smoked would be cool.

C.

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#156878 - 24/04/2003 13:30 Re: Casting of fascia & clear buttons [Re: Gazz]
Derek
addict

Registered: 16/08/1999
Posts: 453
Loc: NRW, Germany
I have been twitching at the thought of 303's brilliant newface but it is expensive.

Actually I thought 303's prices were quite reasonable for what you get. I would be surprised if the cast facias are much cheaper.
_________________________
(list 6284, Mk1 S/N 00299 4GB blue [sold]. Mk2 S/N 080000094 20GB blue)

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#156879 - 24/04/2003 15:39 Re: Casting of fascia & clear buttons [Re: Derek]
Casting_Fool
new poster

Registered: 23/04/2003
Posts: 18
... translucent milky white or milky gray...

I'll look into that. I've done some clear castings that were heavily tinted and could cause the same effect.

... Red fascia and/or red buttons...
... "Translucent" Buttons, prefer Blue. (With no bubbles...
... green tint too...

I could do about 8-9 of the usual "crayon box" colors for a start, and then the 5 metalized ones. All of the regular colors can be lightened or darkened into other shades. For example, red could be adjusted from "pink" all the way into "blood red".

... Smoked would be cool...

Harder to do, the black tends to wash into a purplish sort of cool tint. What color smoke, wood fire white or petroleum-laced choker?

... What do you mean by replacement Fascia?

The plate with the oval holes in it, the same one that everyone seems to be using. Large knob on the right, the tear drop-shaped buttons on the left.

... the fascia and buttons will be a replica of the original plastic ones?

Yes, but in the colors indicated above and in my other messages. I suppose that I could do some buttons in the same opaque resin as the fascia plate for folk who do not intend to light them up.

... if the cast facias are much cheaper [than the 303 Newface's]...

Actually, the Newface lines are the property of the folk who are producing them. I would not cast copies of their work. Those are the aluminum ones, right?

I should have an original plate and set of buttons in a few days. I'll know more about feasibility and cost after I look them over.

It's also important that I talk with someone who holds the license to the design. Any takers out there? I don't want to steal your lightning, Dudes. Speak up!
_________________________
Mike Jackson Casting Fool & Son Augusta, GA USA http://www.cfnson.com

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#156880 - 24/04/2003 15:53 Re: Casting of fascia & clear buttons [Re: Casting_Fool]
rob
carpal tunnel

Registered: 21/05/1999
Posts: 5316
Loc: Cambridge UK
It's also important that I talk with someone who holds the license to the design. Any takers out there? I don't want to steal your lightning, Dudes. Speak up!

That would be SONICblue, and by next week will be Denon & Marantz. If you want an official license to copy the design then I don't think you're going to get it. That particular IP has changed hands so many times that nobody would have a clue who is responsible for it. I do know that the original tool is rusting somewhere in Sussex and will never be used again.

It seems you don't need the original CAD and I'm not aware you need permission to copy a physical object which is neither patented nor trademarked. Just don't try to pass it off as Rio. Of course i'm not a lawyer, and our lawyers have bigger things on their minds right now.

Rob

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#156881 - 24/04/2003 16:06 Re: Casting of fascia & clear buttons [Re: Casting_Fool]
Mach
old hand

Registered: 15/07/2002
Posts: 826
Loc: Texas, USA
Mike,

Smoke is similar to car window tint. Charcoal as opposed to whitish. See Smoke Buttons . Although whitish smoke describes what Tony is after I think.

Tim's NewFace is the CNC aluminum one.

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#156882 - 24/04/2003 19:09 Re: Casting of fascia & clear buttons [Re: Casting_Fool]
fede
journeyman

Registered: 31/01/2002
Posts: 89
Loc: Texas
I can't believe this thread has not lit up the board completely like the ones for the docking stations or the tuners! I will personally be in for three sets minimum.

This is some of the best news I have read here in weeks!
_________________________
'a stock car stereo is a beautiful thing to waste' MKIIa 60gb MKIIa 20gb

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#156883 - 24/04/2003 19:20 Re: Casting of fascia & clear buttons [Re: Casting_Fool]
oliver
addict

Registered: 02/04/2002
Posts: 691
I would also be interested in at least 3 sets of buttons, and maybe a couple of faces, depending on the final look, and colors that you start selling.
_________________________
Oliver mk1 30gb: 129 | mk2a 30gb: 040104126

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#156884 - 24/04/2003 23:32 Re: Casting of fascia & clear buttons [Re: oliver]
muzza
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 21/07/1999
Posts: 1765
Loc: Brisbane, Queensland, Australi...
Damn I wish I had some money! I'd get Darkstorm's neon facia and a few sets of these as well! Unfortunately I cant commit to this at the moment but it's great that professionals willing to take it on.
_________________________
-- Murray I What part of 'no' don't you understand? Is it the 'N', or the 'Zero'?

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#156885 - 25/04/2003 01:57 Re: Casting of fascia & clear buttons [Re: muzza]
talmou
new poster

Registered: 22/05/2002
Posts: 20
Loc: London
Put me down for 2 sets of butons + knob. translucent milky gray if available.

Thanks
_________________________
Jim MK2#090000841 MK2a#120001050

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#156886 - 25/04/2003 01:59 Re: Casting of fascia & clear buttons [Re: muzza]
andym
carpal tunnel

Registered: 17/01/2002
Posts: 3978
Loc: Manchester UK
If you think that looks good, have a look at this!



How sexy is that!
_________________________
Cheers,

Andy M

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#156887 - 25/04/2003 04:51 Re: Casting of fascia & clear buttons [Re: andym]
pgrzelak
carpal tunnel

Registered: 15/08/2000
Posts: 4859
Loc: New Jersey, USA
Greetings.

I am interested also, but I want to give everyone else a chance first. But, if you are looking for "critical mass", I would be interested in at least 1 of each color, and a few extras thrown in.
_________________________
Paul Grzelak
200GB with 48MB RAM, Illuminated Buttons and Digital Outputs

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#156888 - 25/04/2003 05:08 Re: Casting of fascia & clear buttons [Re: Casting_Fool]
snoopstah
enthusiast

Registered: 07/01/2002
Posts: 324
Loc: Squamish, BC
Would snap up a set of translucent buttons in a second - and more than one set if there were various colour choices!

Would also be very interested in a fascia, depending on cost and how it looked
_________________________
Empeg Mk2a 60G with amber lit buttons kit - #30102490

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#156889 - 25/04/2003 11:42 Re: Casting of fascia & clear buttons [Re: Casting_Fool]
mdavey
enthusiast

Registered: 06/03/2003
Posts: 269
Loc: Wellingborough, UK
How about a plastic fascia similar to Marcus' design?
_________________________
Michael
Ex-owner of stolen empeg #030102741

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#156890 - 25/04/2003 14:15 Re: Casting of fascia & clear buttons [Re: mdavey]
Casting_Fool
new poster

Registered: 23/04/2003
Posts: 18
mdavey replied: site:
> How about a plastic fascia similar to Marcus' design?

I don't have a way of having the CAD files CAM'ed into a physical master, and having that done is beyond the $ limit that I've set on the development costs for the project.

But, looking at Marcus' graphics, I just realized that what I thought was the bottom edge of the fascia is actually the unit's handle. A few questions:

1. What color is the handle?
2. What material is it made of?
3. Would the handle being included with the fascia and buttons be expected by purchasers?

Thanks for the answers!

rob replied:
> That would be SONICblue, and by next week will be Denon & Marantz...

Thanks, Rob. I read through your page on the development of the new fascia, and then read through what I could find on the purchase of Rio and it's intellectual property until I ended up at D&M's site (http://www.dm-holdings.com).

It looks as if I could produce the fascia and buttons as long as I'm careful to not associate it with the player or with D&M itself. I was going to add a generic radio reproduction line to our product lines anyway and leave it open for a number of device types.

I sent off an inquiry to Denon (no address for Marantz) a few minutes ago. It will be interesting to see what the response is.

> It seems you don't need the original CAD...

My own ThermoJet 3D printer is somewhere down the line acquisition-wise, so I'm not using CAD/CAM at present.

>... and I'm not aware you need permission to copy a physical object which
is neither patented nor trademarked. Just don't try to pass it off as Rio.
Of course i'm not a lawyer, and our lawyers have bigger things on their
minds right now.

Actually, you produced the units and the new fascia/buttons in the UK. Was a US copyright or patent applied for? I hadn't thought of that angle on the issue. I'll have to look into it.

I hope that you and the other Rob made out okay with the transition of the company.

Thanks again for the help.
_________________________
Mike Jackson Casting Fool & Son Augusta, GA USA http://www.cfnson.com

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#156891 - 25/04/2003 14:54 Re: Casting of fascia & clear buttons [Re: Casting_Fool]
Mach
old hand

Registered: 15/07/2002
Posts: 826
Loc: Texas, USA
The handle is coated aluminum. I can forward my handle but it is chromed and may be a little thicker than original. It would need to be fairly strong (embedded metal in resin, maybe?) because it is used to pull the player from the car sled. Neither the NewFace or previous efforts at a replacment fascia provided a handle. If we could figure out a way to cast the handle also, it would be great. Handles that match the colored fascia would have a pretty high drool factor.

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#156892 - 25/04/2003 14:58 Re: Casting of fascia & clear buttons [Re: Casting_Fool]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31149
Loc: Seattle, WA
1. What color is the handle?
Black. And on my Mk2 unit, when the sun hits it just right, it's a slightly different shade of black than the fascia.

2. What material is it made of?
Cast aluminum, painted black after casting. Hence the slight difference in color with the fascia.

3. Would the handle being included with the fascia and buttons be expected by purchasers?
No. The handle is known to be a separate part. Currently, there is no one offering alternate handle replacements, although I'd love to see 303 offer handles which match his new fascia.

Which really, to think about it, brings up a question: If you're wanting to make a fascia that's an exact replacement of the factory fascia, what's your target market? The only people who'd want that are those who have broken their original fascia or want to experiment with a dremel tool for some reason. I don't know if there would be many of those people. It might be more fun to come up with an alternate, like 303 has. You'd sell more of them that way.

The only trick is making it work with the existing handle. If you can't cast aluminum, a plastic handle probably would NOT work.

I sent off an inquiry to Denon (no address for Marantz) a few minutes ago. It will be interesting to see what the response is.
I would have skipped that step. We've got lots of people here on the BBS making alternate add-on stuff for the player such as the buttons and such, and it's never been an issue before. I'd "just do it" instead of worrying about what Denon thinks. It's such a small run, it isn't something where they'd be concerned about violating IP. Remember, there's only 4000 or so units in circulation, and only a tiny fraction of those owners would be in the market for purchasing your cast parts.
_________________________
Tony Fabris

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#156893 - 25/04/2003 15:49 Re: Casting of fascia & clear buttons [Re: Casting_Fool]
Casting_Fool
new poster

Registered: 23/04/2003
Posts: 18
Mach replied:
> The handle is coated aluminum. I can forward my handle but it is chromed and may be a little thicker than original...

Thanks, Mach, but maybe someone has an original unmodified handle... well, handy? I'd have to examine it in order to determine if a resin handle would hold up to removing the unit and carrying the weight of the unit during transport. The other consideration would be whether the screws that hold the handle to the hinges would be sufficient to do the job. (The resins that I use can be drilled and tapped.)

I'd rather not be saddled with replacing someone's drop-damaged unit!

tfabris replied:

> Currently, there is no one offering alternate handle replacements...

That's something to keep in mind. Thanks.

> ... what's your target market?

Folks who want to replace the standard factory fascia with one that looks different/cool/coordinates/wows/etc. and that easily replaces the factory one. A plus is that it it'll work with the LED conversion.

> It might be more fun to come up with an alternate, like 303 has. You'd sell more of them that way.

The investment to create an original design is way beyond what I want to invest at this time. Toymaking (sculpting/casting) is my primary occupation, and every hour that I invest into a project runs me $35.00 per. Something like producing an original fascia design could easily run into 100 to 300 hours of design/fabrication/development.

> ... a plastic handle probably would NOT work.

I'd have to see the original handle before I could determine this either way. The resins that I use are also used for making rock climbing "handles" (?), those things that bolt into the "rock face" at climbing gyms. I also use them to cast reproduction lenses for antique vehicles, as well as for custom lenses for other vehicles.

I once tested the durability of a 3" resin lens that I'd cast, with my reconditioned antique Crossman Arms "M1 Carbine" BB rifle. With an ambient outdoor temp of 81.8 degrees F, at 10', 6', and 3', the BB's left almost no discernible mark on the lens.

It wasn't until I brought the rifle to bear at 12" (inches), that I was able to crack the edge of the lens. Even so, the lens is intact. There's a small, 0.5" x 0.25" "T"-shaped star, but it's all internal to the lens and the lens is still completely functional.

It's tough stuff.

>
> I sent off an inquiry to Denon (no address for Marantz) a few minutes ago. It will be interesting to see what the response is.

> I would have skipped that [inquiry to Denon ]...

I can't. As a professional, and because of my personal beliefs, I have to observe the copyright laws. Businesses like mine can be put out of business rather quickly when bootleggers steal our intellectual property and sell copies of it. Which gives me that much more encouragement to be fair and legal when I manufacture products.

I'll post their answer here (if there is one).

> Remember, there's only 4000 or so units in circulation..

Wondered about that, but that's the sort of market that companies like mine seek out. Limited runs (usually less than 1000) of a unique design (got to get some fun in there somewhere), that can be relatively cost effective to produce (a decent margin is always good).
_________________________
Mike Jackson Casting Fool & Son Augusta, GA USA http://www.cfnson.com

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#156894 - 25/04/2003 15:54 Re: Casting of fascia & clear buttons [Re: tfabris]
MMorrow
journeyman

Registered: 07/01/2002
Posts: 54
Loc: Louisville, KY USA
Mike, I'll order at least two sets of the translucent knobs and buttons. I had held back expressing my excitement toward Stu's 4-LED knob board, because I feared that without a source for translucent knobs I would buy it only to have it sit in my spare parts bin. His last post on the boards indicated that he has ordered 100, which will surely go quickly if you end up sourcing the knob and buttons to complete the mod. Thank you for your interest in this project.
...Mark

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#156895 - 25/04/2003 16:16 Re: Casting of fascia & clear buttons [Re: MMorrow]
rafran
new poster

Registered: 21/03/2000
Posts: 26
Same goes for me so count me in for a set or three. Though I didn't hesitate in putting my two cents in for a board and parts. I'm really looking forward to this (and waiting for my Darkstorm lense as well, waiting patiently that is ) as I've finally gotten back to using my Empeg full time again in a new vehicle

Must_Have_New_Knobs_And_Buttons
_________________________
Rick (MkII #80000150 w/tuner & stalk, 40gb)

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