#241017 - 11/11/2004 22:52
Re: About f****** time
[Re: jimhogan]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 16/06/2000
Posts: 1682
Loc: Greenhills, Ohio
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There's just too many rules and regulations and laws on what you can do or say or watch or this or that and more on the horizon and when or where will it ever end. What ever happened to live and let live, now it's we have to make sure no one is offended in anyway. God forbid if little Johny should look in someone's window and see a naked person on a TV screen. And heaven forbid if I sit outside next to someone even in an open air environment and smoke. I prefer to stay home and keep to myself. That way I bother no one.
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Laura
MKI #017/90
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#241018 - 11/11/2004 23:05
Re: About f****** time
[Re: Laura]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2489
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No I'm not selfish. Because that won't give anyone cancer.
Smokers are more than welcome in public - just don't spread your filthy cancerous smoke around. Now THATS selfish.
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#241019 - 11/11/2004 23:08
Re: About f****** time
[Re: Laura]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2489
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"Live and let live" is not the case with smokers. Are you completely ignorant or just plain stupid? Yes, stay indoors and allow us to breath.
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#241020 - 11/11/2004 23:13
Re: About f****** time
[Re: Laura]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 06/10/1999
Posts: 2591
Loc: Seattle, WA, U.S.A.
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Quote:
There's just too many rules and regulations and laws on what you can do or say or watch or this or that and more on the horizon and when or where will it ever end.What ever happened to live and let live,.....
Probably from a different angle, I would say I am pretty concerned about some *more* rules and regulations (say, moralistic ones) along with maybe less rules and regs (corporate governance, treaties, envirnmental law).
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... now it's we have to make sure no one is offended in anyway.
I think it is nice if we don't offend people, at least without giving them a heads-up. I swear a lot privately, but I hate it when people swear on public transport in earshot of folks with different sensibilities..
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God forbid if little Johny should look in someone's window and see a naked person on a TV screen.
Well, when naked people come on my TV, I *always* close the blinds! Think of poor Johnny! 
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And heaven forbid if I sit outside next to someone even in an open air environment and smoke. I prefer to stay home and keep to myself. That way I bother no one.
Well, I kind of think of this in the same vein as when I go to the park and sit down next to somebody with my bongo drums. A little "Hey, you dig bongoes?" always helps
Back to smoking, though, I think that somebody else pointed out the anachronistic nature of some of that past "freedom". I remember crossing the ocean on a full chartered DC8 way back when with half the plane smoking and the other half (literally) puking). In the early 80s, when I worked on an ICU that CPR'd smokers every other day, nurses could still duck into the tiny glass-enclosed conference space (right on the unit) for a smoke break. Now *that's* anachronism. In the US, I would say that the onward march of no-smoking-in-enclosed-public-spaces is pretty much a done deal.
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Jim
'Tis the exceptional fellow who lies awake at night thinking of his successes.
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#241021 - 11/11/2004 23:24
Re: About f****** time
[Re: CrackersMcCheese]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 16/06/2000
Posts: 1682
Loc: Greenhills, Ohio
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Go ahead and breath, there are a lot worse things in the air for you than cigarette smoke.
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Laura
MKI #017/90
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#241022 - 11/11/2004 23:25
Re: About f****** time
[Re: Laura]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2489
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And we don't need cigarettes added to it!
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#241023 - 11/11/2004 23:26
Re: About f****** time
[Re: CrackersMcCheese]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 16/06/2000
Posts: 1682
Loc: Greenhills, Ohio
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Whatever.
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Laura
MKI #017/90
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#241024 - 12/11/2004 00:48
Re: About f****** time
[Re: jimhogan]
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addict
Registered: 25/06/2002
Posts: 456
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Quote:
I remember crossing the ocean on a full chartered DC8 way back when with half the plane smoking
Yeah, remember how rows 1-21 were smoking, and rows 22+ were non-smoking?
And how the smoke was supposed to be smart enough to know this even though there were no barriers in between and the air was recirculated through the whole plane?
Yep, bad standup comedians lost a staple joke when this went away. And now it looks like they're about to lose all their "airline food" jokes as well. (What? You mean airlines used to serve FOOD?)
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In the early 80s, when I worked on an ICU that CPR'd smokers every other day, nurses could still duck into the tiny glass-enclosed conference space (right on the unit) for a smoke break. Now *that's* anachronism.
Definitely! Didn't they also used to put up signs warning people not to smoke IN or NEAR oxygen tents in hospitals?  All that seems really silly when I think about it now.
Back before the workplace smoke bans, I worked somewhere where they had a special "smoking room." It was pretty cool. Basically a 20x20 glass aquarium in the middle of one of the hallways -- equipped with an airlock and super-turbo-industrial fans and filters to vent everything directly outside. The idea was they didn't want to lose smoker productivity by making them go in-and-out of security every time they needed a cigarette. But I think these "smoke-quariums" went away when smoking was completely banned in the workplace.
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#241025 - 12/11/2004 02:22
Re: About f****** time
[Re: CrackersMcCheese]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 08/02/2002
Posts: 3411
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Quote:
"Live and let live" is not the case with smokers. Are you completely ignorant or just plain stupid? Yes, stay indoors and allow us to breath.
Wow. why don't you just say what you really mean? Are you completely arrogant or just plain offensive?
I don't think you have to worry too much about Laura's smoke. The chances of it all making it all the way from Ohio to Scotland and invading your lungs are somewhat lower than the chances of The Loch Ness Monster deciding to go for a walk and biting your head off.
_________________________
Mk2a 60GB Blue. Serial 030102962
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#241026 - 12/11/2004 02:23
Re: About f****** time
[Re: Laura]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5539
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
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Go ahead and breath, there are a lot worse things in the air for you than cigarette smoke.
Ummm... Laura? I rally don't think there are!
tanstaafl.
_________________________
"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
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#241027 - 12/11/2004 04:23
Re: About f****** time
[Re: CrackersMcCheese]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 21/05/1999
Posts: 5335
Loc: Cambridge UK
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Quote:
You a smoker then, Rob? Even if you're not, I don't think anyone can deny that passive smoking from a selfish minority causes harm. Yes... thank God the government are around to make these sensible decisions.
No, I'm not a tobacco smoker. Neither was that my point. This is just the start of a dangerous move from education to legislation - the infancy of a state directed sterile existance. Eventually something *you* enjoy will be affected, but by then it will be too late. Eventually the populace will have lost whatever ability it has left to think for itself.
Rob
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#241028 - 12/11/2004 04:36
Re: About f****** time
[Re: bonzi]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
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The dangers of second-hand smoke are documented but not yet as widely publicized as they should be. Smokers generally have a filter. Their unfortunate victims don't. Toronto is also smoke free now. It's excellent going into a club or bar and not having the smoke interfere with the enjoyment of the mass quantities of alcohol.  I like the farting analogy. It can smell just as bad, but less likely to leave a deposit on your lungs. Bruno
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#241029 - 12/11/2004 04:37
Re: About f****** time
[Re: jimhogan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 21/05/1999
Posts: 5335
Loc: Cambridge UK
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Quote:
You've spent a chunk of time there [California]. How bad was that aspect of your visit?
Putting aside the rather different point I was trying to make, I've been to several "smoke free" places including California, NY, Dublin and others.
The semi-counter-culture that inevitably forms on the streets outside of drinking establishments can be interesting, but then, I always found the most interesting conversations were to be had with folks on their smoke break. The clean air in restaurants is pretty enjoyable, although I don't remember being in a really smokey restaurant for many years, even with no ban in place. There seems to be a tangible negative impact on the atmosphere in clubs, especially more underground genres where the smoking ban clashes bizarrely with the general culture. Those gigs feel neutered although I doubt that is just down to non smoking.
Incidentally, this viewpoint represents a 180 degree change of opinion for me. Until a few years ago I was an outspoken critic of smoking, smokers and smokey places. Since then I've found, as contradictory as it may sound, that many of my friends who smoke are also the people that are most fully living their lives. Perhaps they are more aware of their own mortality. It's a little tragic really.
Rob
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#241030 - 12/11/2004 04:47
Re: About f****** time
[Re: rob]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
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The point with smoking is that to "enjoy" it, you're getting in the face of those that don't (literally). Smokers have been abusing the freedom of non-smokers by poluting their clean air. Unfortunately smoking bans (government imposed) seem to be the only way to change anything. I'm not a fan of big government. But banning smoking in restaurants, bars or other public places is a good thing. Though I do agree with allowing for a (fee based and limited) licence for a smoking lounge - at least in spirit. in practice it would be self-defeating if all establishments applied for it. This would be something I see reserved for select bars and cigar/smoking lounges.
It's all a matter of perspetive and accepted behaviour of course. You can't very well just whip it out and give it a shake in public (in most places), yet that's not likely to affect someone like cigarette smoke will.
Bruno
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#241032 - 12/11/2004 14:01
Re: About f****** time
[Re: rob]
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old hand
Registered: 23/07/2003
Posts: 869
Loc: Colorado
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I have to agree, Rob. I find the people in the smoking area at any business are often not only some of the most interesting people, but very likely the most well informed in regards to what is going on at said business. I quit smoking in October of 2003 after 17 years. I have no real desire to smoke anymore, but I don't really mind being around smokers. In a way, I kind of even like the smell, at least until I smell it on my clothes afterwards.
That said, I think the rabid non-smokers should take a minute to consider their complaints. Cigarette smoke, as Laura said, is not the worst thing out there. You say you don't have a choice as to whether or not you breathe cigarette smoke? Well I (and everyone else) don't have the option of not breathing the fumes from your SUV. Or from the tractor trailer rolling down the street belching fumes. Of from the factories. Or..
Uh, feel free to continue ad nauseum with nasty polluting things.
My point is that it seems to be human nature to eradicate that which you do not understand, that which you do not appreciate. I think cigarette smoking is the same. If you don't like smoking, don't do it. If someone is smoking near you, ask them to stop; you may be pleasantly suprised at how many will apologize and move on or extinguish it. If you don't like the fact that an establishment allows smoking, vote with your wallet.
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Dave
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#241033 - 12/11/2004 14:09
Re: About f****** time
[Re: webroach]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/12/2001
Posts: 5528
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I'm not a smoker, have never smoked and don't want to start. That said, I don't mind my friends smoking. Just so long as they're considerate about it i.e they don't blow it into my face and it's not extremely smoky in there then I'm fine with it. By the end of the night I end up smelling like an ashtray so a shower is definitely in order.
Ideally of course, I'd prefer smoke free places of course but I'll put up with places that do allow smoking.
Urban legend is that going on the tube to work and back is equivalent to smoking a cigarette or two just from the amount of airborne crud. If you've ever been on the tube then you'll know what I mean by black snot... Eww... Just think of the stuff that doesn't get caught!
Edited by tman (12/11/2004 14:10)
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#241034 - 12/11/2004 14:14
Re: About f****** time
[Re: tman]
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old hand
Registered: 23/07/2003
Posts: 869
Loc: Colorado
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Quote:
If you've ever been on the tube then you'll know what I mean by black snot... Eww... Just think of the stuff that doesn't get caught!
Sadly, haven't made it to England yet, though my girl and I are hoping to go next fall (maybe). Tokyo in the late spring takes precedence. But I do know about the "black snot". So I have spending money while being a good little student, I work a few graves a week at Home Despot, driving big machines. Bad nasty in the air there, I tell you.
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Dave
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#241035 - 17/11/2004 01:53
Re: About f****** time
[Re: rob]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 06/10/1999
Posts: 2591
Loc: Seattle, WA, U.S.A.
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Quote:
Putting aside the rather different point I was trying to make, I've been to several "smoke free" places including California, NY, Dublin and others.
Sorry if I missed that. I guess I would still ask if the Cals, New Yoks and Dublins wind up being unhappier, less interesting places....
Quote:
Incidentally, this viewpoint represents a 180 degree change of opinion for me. Until a few years ago I was an outspoken critic of smoking, smokers and smokey places. Since then I've found, as contradictory as it may sound, that many of my friends who smoke are also the people that are most fully living their lives. Perhaps they are more aware of their own mortality. It's a little tragic really.
Interesting. I've had a pretty low proportion in my recent workplaces (*very* low now -- maybe 4-5 of 150), but I have never seen a correlation. I can think of people who fit that "mold", but can just as easily of folks living pretty large without tobacco.
To your point, though: would we rather have the Hemingway who ultimately blew his brains out over self-induced infirmity and depression or a Hemingway that ate right and went to bed every night by 9:30?
edit: Ach, part of my response to your (and Webroach's) point was to say that I noticed this week that England looks to be foloowing Scotland on this....
Edited by jimhogan (17/11/2004 01:56)
_________________________
Jim
'Tis the exceptional fellow who lies awake at night thinking of his successes.
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#241036 - 17/11/2004 12:22
Re: About f****** time
[Re: hybrid8]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/04/2000
Posts: 3810
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Quote:
The dangers of second-hand smoke are documented but not yet as widely publicized as they should be. Smokers generally have a filter. Their unfortunate victims don't.
Penn & Teller's show, Bullshit, had an episode about second-hand smoke. P&T's thesis was that there is no documented evidence that secondhand smoke is dangerous, therefore smoking bans are, well, bullshit.
Regardless of the lack of studies about second-hand smoke, their logic just doesn't work. Fact #1: first-hand smoke is carcinogenic. Bad for you. No dispute about it. Fact #2: the smoke coming off the end of the cigarette and, likewise, the smoke being exhaled by smokers is, chemically, the same as the smoke being inhaled by smokers. It's not like a smoker's lungs magically clean the stuff up before they exhale it.
Given that it's a known bad thing, the only question concerns the concentration. What dosage are you getting from sitting in a smoky bar? How many hours in a smoky bar is equivalent to smoking one cigarette? That answer probably depends on how many people are smoking and how good the ventilation is. If you're at a Korean restaurant where every table has its own fume hood, you can smoke all you want and not bother your neighbor at all. Elsewhere...
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#241037 - 17/11/2004 15:25
Re: About f****** time
[Re: DWallach]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31565
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Personally, I'm not even interested in smoking bans because of secondhand smoke risks. For me, it's just that smells awful and gives me a headache. So the more places that get designated smoke-free, the better, as far as I'm concerned.
If it there was a subculture of people who liked to burp and fart continuously, I'd hope that'd get banned, too.
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#241038 - 17/11/2004 15:28
Re: About f****** time
[Re: tfabris]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 08/02/2002
Posts: 3411
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Quote:
If it there was a subculture of people who liked to burp and fart continuously, I'd hope that'd get banned, too.
I thought that you enjoyed your time in England?!
_________________________
Mk2a 60GB Blue. Serial 030102962
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#241040 - 17/11/2004 21:40
Re: About f****** time
[Re: jimhogan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Quote:
Would we rather have the Hemingway who ultimately blew his brains out over self-induced infirmity and depression or a Hemingway that ate right and went to bed every night by 9:30?
I'd prefer the dull Hemingway. Wait. How is that different from the real Hemingway? Oh, yeah. The dull-life Hemingway. Or even one who killed himself fifty years earlier. That way I wouldn't have to listen to people go on about how great he was.
Can we throw Dickens in there, too?
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Bitt Faulk
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#241041 - 17/11/2004 22:19
Re: About f****** time
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 06/10/1999
Posts: 2591
Loc: Seattle, WA, U.S.A.
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Quote:
That way I wouldn't have to listen to people go on about how great he was.
Now, that's not fair! Without Hemingway we'd never have ....Hemingway contests! And worse, we might never witness Ingrid Bergman pretending to be Spanish! That would be tragic!
OK, Warren Zevon, then. Steve McQueen!
_________________________
Jim
'Tis the exceptional fellow who lies awake at night thinking of his successes.
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#241042 - 17/11/2004 22:25
Re: About f****** time
[Re: jimhogan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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I preferred Charlton Heston pretending to be Mexican, personally.
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Bitt Faulk
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#241043 - 18/11/2004 11:05
Re: About f****** time
[Re: wfaulk]
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old hand
Registered: 27/02/2003
Posts: 770
Loc: Washington, DC metro
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Quote:
I preferred Charlton Heston pretending to be Mexican, personally.
John Wayne as Ghengis Khan. 
-jk
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#241044 - 18/11/2004 12:05
Re: About f****** time
[Re: jmwking]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 09/08/2000
Posts: 2091
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland
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The Seans as ....themselves. Two superb examples: Sean Connery - Russian sub commander Sean Bean - Odysseus Yay - I reckon I too could be a great actor, as I play myself pretty much perfectly
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Rory
MkIIa, blue lit buttons, memory upgrade, 1Tb in Subaru Forester STi
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#241045 - 19/11/2004 08:49
Re: About f****** time
[Re: DWallach]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
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Quote:
Regardless of the lack of studies about second-hand smoke,
I heard of one study in a small town in Colorado (I think it was... I don't have a link handy to check) that banned smoking for a year before it was reversed due to its unpopularity. During that year that it existed, they documented something like a 30% drop in cardiac problems requiring emergency service. Or something like that. Anyone else remember seeing this that can clarify?
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