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#247497 - 26/01/2005 02:19 HDTV Shopping
drakino
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
I think I am finally going to plop down the cash to go HDTV (or rather defer it over 3 years), and so far I have my sights on this Samsung HDTV unit. Anyone have any experience with this exact model? Or DLP in general? For what I want to pay, either DLP or LCD real projection seem to be the best value and quality. Unfortunatly front projection is out of the question for now. And plasma still has way too many issues with burn in, and problems at mile+ altitudes.

TV service, I may look into Voom, even with the sale of the bird to Echostar. True some of the channels are crap, but they at least offer some other channels both Dish and DirecTV seem to lack in HD at this time. Local cable is out of the question, I refuse to give Adelphia any more money.

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#247498 - 26/01/2005 02:27 Re: HDTV Shopping [Re: drakino]
SE_Sport_Driver
carpal tunnel

Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
DirecTV is going to mpeg4 very soon so they can have a lot more HD content.. so, if you go with Boom, don't sign a 5 year contract or anything . Other than that, my HDTV set is pretty old and the only regret I have is that it only have one component input.
_________________________
Brad B.

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#247499 - 26/01/2005 02:41 Re: HDTV Shopping [Re: drakino]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31565
Loc: Seattle, WA
My biggest problem with the current crop of DLP and LCD televisions is the fact that they don't actually do HDTV resolution. They almost all downsample to 720 or 768. Even the companies that used to do true-1080 CRT projectors are backing off to LCD/DLP because there's less trouble with convergence, color balance, and burn-in.

Samsung just came out with some true-1080 LCD displays, but they're pricey.
_________________________
Tony Fabris

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#247500 - 26/01/2005 02:46 Re: HDTV Shopping [Re: drakino]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31565
Loc: Seattle, WA
Oh. One other reason to consider a CRT projector (if you can find a good one) over LCD or DLP projectors, is that you don't have to replace the bulb every year. If you are about to get an LCD or DLP projector, research how much the light bulb costs and how often it needs to be replaced.
_________________________
Tony Fabris

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#247501 - 26/01/2005 02:52 Re: HDTV Shopping [Re: drakino]
Dignan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12318
Loc: Sterling, VA
Have you looked at rear projection LCD? My father recently bought the 60" Sony, and it's simply stunning. IMO, I'd be completely satisfied with this set myself. If I were looking to get a set of my own, there would only be two ways to improve on this set: bigger screen and no speakers. Well, there's a 70" version. And sadly, all TVs these days seem to come with the stupid speakers.

Anyway, I can whole-heartedly endorse the LCD rear projection set.
_________________________
Matt

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#247502 - 26/01/2005 02:54 Re: HDTV Shopping [Re: Dignan]
SE_Sport_Driver
carpal tunnel

Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
Even though those speakers always are lacking, they are handy to have when you use the front panel input to hook up a video camera or game console.
_________________________
Brad B.

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#247503 - 26/01/2005 03:03 Re: HDTV Shopping [Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
Dignan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12318
Loc: Sterling, VA
Quote:
Even though those speakers always are lacking, they are handy to have when you use the front panel input to hook up a video camera or game console.

Where do you keep your receiver?
_________________________
Matt

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#247504 - 26/01/2005 03:14 Re: HDTV Shopping [Re: Dignan]
SE_Sport_Driver
carpal tunnel

Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
My reciever doesn't have component video, so I don't use it for video switching. Because of this, to have a video camera hooked up, I would need to run the video to the television and the audio to the receiver to be able to hear AND see it.

You're right though, I need to upgrade my receiver.
_________________________
Brad B.

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#247505 - 26/01/2005 04:05 Re: HDTV Shopping [Re: tfabris]
drakino
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
Everything I have seen says 1280x720p is a valid HDTV resolution, and is sometimes preferred to 1920x1080i due to motion issues with interlacing. The problem is noone is fully behind either resolution. ABC and FOX support 720p, while NBC and CBS support 1080i.

One other benefit I see of going with a 720p display now. I plan on running a computer off the set and will probably play a decent amount of games on it. 1280x720 can be hit easially by most games on middle of the road video cards.

I figure down the road I can look at upgrading to a true 1080p TV if such content starts coming online. But in any case, 720p will be a decent upgrade above my current viewing experience.

Bulb wise, the Samsung above claims 8000 hours of use, or about a full years worth if I left it on 24/7. Bulbs are $180ish now, and will probably drop in the future. I'm pondering getting the Best Buy coverage plan on the unit, as that would even cover the bulbs.

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#247506 - 26/01/2005 05:55 Re: HDTV Shopping [Re: drakino]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31565
Loc: Seattle, WA
Yeah, you sound like you've got it all under control and know what you're doing. I certainly expected nothing less from you, of course.

I will say, though, that Half-Life 2 looks awesome at 1920x1080 on my 46" high def Mitsubishi CRT projector. The GeForce 6800 GT does quite well at that rez on that game.
_________________________
Tony Fabris

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#247507 - 26/01/2005 07:43 Re: HDTV Shopping [Re: tfabris]
drakino
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
I was planning on holding off till March when Voom was expected to expand to 70 HD channels and bring out their PVR. But two things happened to change my mind.

Echostar bought the Voom Rainbow 1 satellite. Seems bad, but really for me it means a cheep HDTV decoder box. Voom is offering $1 installs with 6 month commitments, but odds are they won't last that long. So I get a box capable of doing the off air decoding, and the antenna for $1 + a few $50 payments for monthly service.

Best Buy is also doing 36 months no interest on almost all their TVs this week. Kinda hard to say no at that point.

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#247508 - 26/01/2005 14:18 Re: HDTV Shopping [Re: drakino]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
Remember that that usually means that if you haven't paid it off in that 36 months, you get charged all the interest they would have charged over those 36 months.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk

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#247509 - 26/01/2005 14:36 Re: HDTV Shopping [Re: drakino]
visuvius
addict

Registered: 18/02/2002
Posts: 658
Are you sure they let you keep the box after the 6 month commmitment is up? If so, I think I might have to sign up for that.

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#247510 - 26/01/2005 15:56 Re: HDTV Shopping [Re: drakino]
DWallach
carpal tunnel

Registered: 30/04/2000
Posts: 3810
I've got a Hitachi 43" CRT rear-projector. It's now about five years old and still going strong. I think I originally paid $2500. Now-a-days, you can find these things for much, much less.

Convergence is a real issue. Even though my set can "automatically" converge itself, it's still never quite right. I read the service manual (found the PDF online) and it turns out that they're deliberately defocusing the blue gun. It's fuzzy by design. The DLP or LCD rear-projectors look much, much sharper, and the cabinets aren't as big. You still have off-axis viewing issues, but that goes with the rear-projector territory. To fix it, you have to go plasma or LCD panel. The LCD panels are just beyond beautiful, but they're extremely expensive. If you had $6000 to drop, I'd go for the Sharp Aquos 45" LCD. If you're looking to spend $2000 or less, then the DLP/LCD rear-projectors are a very attractive choice.

In terms of content, I'm very happy with my HD-TiVo and DirecTV service. I think Sony has a HD DVR now that does over-the-air and maybe cable-card, and there's also some kind of Dish HD DVR solution. It was a pain to put the big weathervane antenna (~$100 ChannelMaster) on my roof, but now my HD-Tivo gets HD locals and HD satellite and the TV in the bedroom gets OTA standard-def at no extra charge.

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#247511 - 26/01/2005 16:52 Re: HDTV Shopping [Re: DWallach]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31565
Loc: Seattle, WA
Quote:
I read the service manual (found the PDF online) and it turns out that they're deliberately defocusing the blue gun. It's fuzzy by design.

Freeze right there. Don't touch the blue gun focus. Trust me on this one. I know it's tempting. I've been there.

Yes the blue gun is fuzzier than the other two. Yes it's possible to make it sharper than the factory focus. I did this myself: I thought I'd be all cool and make the blue gun on my Mits sharper. It was easy to do, I did it, it worked.

But here's what happened, and I didn't realize this is what had happened until I had a pro come in and fix it for me...

When you sharpen that blue gun, you're not just changing its focus. You're also changing the actual color output. The lines on your test pattern go from a pure blue to a sort of a cyan color. And suddenly everything on the screen looks greenish. And you start messing with the color controls, and since you're working from a bad color base to begin with, you just get things farther and farther out of wack. And now the only solution is to have an experienced professional with calibrated equipment (colorimeter and such) come in and put it all back to spec for you... Starting with step number one of putting that blue gun's focus back to where it belongs...

This also counts, to a lesser degree, for the red and green guns. My advice to you: Don't touch the gun focus. Ever.
_________________________
Tony Fabris

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#247512 - 26/01/2005 17:46 Re: HDTV Shopping [Re: drakino]
hybrid8
carpal tunnel

Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
Go look at them in person. I can tell you from my experience as a casual viewer (don't own one myself) that I don't like DLP rear or front projection because of color separation. If you talk, chew, move your head or eyes while watching, you will see red, green and blue shifts all over the image. I saw a few sets that got around this at CES, but they were few and far between.

3LCD rear projection provided by far the best images I have ever seen on any display. Not as widely adopted as DLP, it's becoming more common from a number of manufacturers nonetheless. Sony and others at various price points. It's an Epson technology (DLP is Texas Instruments) and was heavily promoted at CES earlier this month. Simply stunning displays at Epson's own booth and their (and partners) 3LCD technology showcase booth. http://www.3lcd.com Worth looking into.

Also worth looking into is a good scaler if the one built into the set isn't the greatest. Affordable and versatile: http://www.dvdo.com. It also handles video switching and can go from one input topology to a different output. I've been recommending it as an expensive (possible) way to connect a Mac Mini to an HD set that lacks DVI (though I'd love someone to confirm it works )

Bruno
_________________________
Bruno
Twisted Melon : Fine Mac OS Software

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#247513 - 26/01/2005 17:53 Re: HDTV Shopping [Re: tfabris]
DWallach
carpal tunnel

Registered: 30/04/2000
Posts: 3810
Quote:
My advice to you: Don't touch the gun focus. Ever.


Wow, you can change the color by changing the focus? Who knew?

Anyway, if I were buying something new on a budget, I'd go for the DLP/LCD rear-projector solution, because you get the sharpness and don't have to fuss around with convergence (or focus issues).

Still, make sure you see one in person before dropping your dollars. If you're feeling industrious, take along a video calibration disc (I've got the "Video Essentials" DVD) and make sure you've got the brightness, contrast, and color set properly before you start making comparisons between sets. Most consumer electronic stores have the settings all wrong, particularly with random customers pressing random buttons to see what happens.

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#247514 - 26/01/2005 17:53 Re: HDTV Shopping [Re: hybrid8]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31565
Loc: Seattle, WA
Quote:
Go look at them in person.

And bring a bag of corn nuts.
_________________________
Tony Fabris

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#247515 - 26/01/2005 18:07 Re: HDTV Shopping [Re: DWallach]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31565
Loc: Seattle, WA
Quote:
Wow, you can change the color by changing the focus? Who knew?

I certainly didn't. But as soon as the tech showed it to me, showed me what I'd done, I could see it clear as day. The test pattern went from blue to cyan and back again as you twiddled. I don't recall whether the change was caused by the manual lens focus ring, or if it was the electrostatic focus adjuster that was doing it. But it was at least one or both of those things that caused the problem.

Quote:
take along a video calibration disc (I've got the "Video Essentials" DVD)

You heretic. Avia all the way.

Hey. Speaking of video calibration. One of the things that I'd always found difficult was getting decent test patterns up on the HDTV input. The DVD input was easy, of course, but getting an HD test pattern involved the computer. And the thing about the computer is that its scan rate and screen positioning are slightly different than my HDTV receiver, so I can't necessarily trust it.

But... Since you've got the HD DirecTivo you can do something. I discovered this myself and I'm very happy I did...

Every once in a while, HDNET runs a test pattern suite. Usually early in the morning. Do a title search for "HDNet Test Pattern". Save that puppydog in your HD-Tivo and you've got HD test patterns for life. They've got an overscan chart, a convergence grid, color bars, it's all there. Enjoy.
_________________________
Tony Fabris

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#247516 - 26/01/2005 18:27 Re: HDTV Shopping [Re: drakino]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31565
Loc: Seattle, WA
A timely discussion about 1080i vs 720p vs 1080p...
_________________________
Tony Fabris

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#247517 - 26/01/2005 18:43 Re: HDTV Shopping [Re: tfabris]
Dylan
addict

Registered: 23/09/2000
Posts: 498
Loc: Virginia, USA
Quote:
Oh. One other reason to consider a CRT projector (if you can find a good one) over LCD or DLP projectors, is that you don't have to replace the bulb every year. If you are about to get an LCD or DLP projector, research how much the light bulb costs and how often it needs to be replaced.


Is this really a disadvantage? After, say, 8000 hours you'll have replaced the bulb twice on a digital projector at a total cost of $500-700. Each time you replace the bulb you'll have a display that is as bright as the day you bought it.

After 8000 hours a CRT will have permanently lost much of it's brightness and will be near the end of it's usable life.

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#247518 - 26/01/2005 19:08 Re: HDTV Shopping [Re: Dylan]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31565
Loc: Seattle, WA
Quote:
After 8000 hours a CRT will have permanently lost much of it's brightness and will be near the end of it's usable life.


My CRT projector is coming up on 6 years old, and I don't think it's anywhere near the end of its life. It still looks fantastic.

8000 hours is pretty good for a bulb, though. My friend Tod had to replace a bulb in his Sony projector after less than a year of ownership. And because of supply problems with the bulb, he was without a television for something like two months.

I'm just saying, be careful about bulbs, that's all.
_________________________
Tony Fabris

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#247519 - 26/01/2005 19:51 Re: HDTV Shopping [Re: tfabris]
DWallach
carpal tunnel

Registered: 30/04/2000
Posts: 3810
Quote:
I'm just saying, be careful about bulbs, that's all.

Or, just buy a spare bulb when you buy the set. When the original bulb eventually burns out, you'll have your replacement in hand and can order another one at your leisure.

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#247520 - 26/01/2005 20:13 Re: HDTV Shopping [Re: DWallach]
Cybjorg
addict

Registered: 23/12/2002
Posts: 652
Loc: Winston Salem, NC
Quote:
Quote:
I'm just saying, be careful about bulbs, that's all.

Or, just buy a spare bulb when you buy the set.


Or wait and hope they come down in price (but not wane in availability).

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#247521 - 26/01/2005 20:25 Re: HDTV Shopping [Re: hybrid8]
drakino
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
Quote:
Go look at them in person.

I did give it a quick glance yesterday, and plan to bring my Powerbook in tow to test the DVI input and some other aspects of it either today or tomorrow. Anyone know any good HDTV clips in a computer file format?
Quote:
If you talk, chew, move your head or eyes while watching, you will see red, green and blue shifts all over the image.

Samsing seems to have addressed that with this product line at least from my 5 minutes watching yesterday. I knew about that effect and the rainbow issue, but I really couldn't see it much on units that had that issue. Since this one has a DLP chip that tries to address it, I didn't notice anything at all.

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#247522 - 26/01/2005 20:31 Re: HDTV Shopping [Re: drakino]
DLF
addict

Registered: 24/07/2003
Posts: 500
Loc: Colorado, N.A.
Quote:
... 1280x720p is a valid HDTV resolution, and is sometimes preferred to 1920x1080i due to motion issues with interlacing.
Some convert 1080i/p to 720p and others go the other way, but I think it's the 1920 lines that most displays can't render natively. But here are a couple.
_________________________
-- DLF

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#247523 - 27/01/2005 04:24 Re: HDTV Shopping [Re: drakino]
gbeer
carpal tunnel

Registered: 17/12/2000
Posts: 2665
Loc: Manteca, California
Quote:
If you talk, chew, move your head or eyes while watching, you will see red, green and blue shifts all over the image.


This is because the DLP units use a spinning color filter. They render every frame three times. Once for each color on the wheel, just as the correct color happens to be in the right position. Persistance of vision makes it all merge together except, when the eye moves and the C's, Y's and M's fail to hit the same cones and rods. I guess you could call that "temproal mis-convergence"

As a process it seems to work but "moving parts"... (and yes I am choosing to ignore the million or so little mirrors on the DLP itself)

Boy, I do wish Plazma had the legs to out last all the others.
_________________________
Glenn

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#247524 - 27/01/2005 11:24 Re: HDTV Shopping [Re: gbeer]
drakino
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
Quote:
Boy, I do wish Plazma had the legs to out last all the others.

Three big issues I have with any plasma display:

1. Cost. Plasma cost is insanly high above any other HDTV tech for the screen size. Sure, you get a smaller unit, but anymore that gap is closing quickly, and the increase in price isn't worth it.

2. Burn in. Being that I can't stand widescreen stretching of 4:3 content, I'd have issues with burn in quickly on a plasma.

3. Afraid of heights. Most plasmas still do not work well at high altitudes. The problem is painfully obvious in any consumer store here in Colorado. Walk into the plasma section, turn down any noise in the area, and you get a not so plesant buzz. Put one of those units in a house, and you have a buzz that cannot be covered up without raising sound volume of the content to police attracting levels. Why retailers even bother stocking plasma units with this problem here is beyond me, since almost all get returned when the issue starts up after a few days of operation.

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#247525 - 27/01/2005 12:35 Re: HDTV Shopping [Re: hybrid8]
Dignan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12318
Loc: Sterling, VA
Quote:
3LCD rear projection provided by far the best images I have ever seen on any display.

Is it always called 3LCD? I'm just trying to figure out whether that's what I have or not. I just call it LCD rear projection.

Whatever you end up with, Tom, do you promise not to take the This Old House approach? Their idea of the ideal media room is to put a 42" LCD over a fireplace mantle. I never understand this philosophy. It can't be good for your neck.
_________________________
Matt

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#247526 - 27/01/2005 13:37 Re: HDTV Shopping [Re: drakino]
DWallach
carpal tunnel

Registered: 30/04/2000
Posts: 3810
Quote:
Plasma cost is insanly high above any other HDTV tech for the screen size.

Except for big LCD panels. I think Sharp wants $6000 for their 45" LCD panel. Of course, it's 1080p, and won't have the high-altitude or burn-in issues of a plasma, but that's almost twice the cost of a 45" plasma.

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#247527 - 27/01/2005 13:50 Re: HDTV Shopping [Re: drakino]
hybrid8
carpal tunnel

Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
As far as I recall, Plasma is (was?) supposed to be a transitionary technology. Made it to market only because LCD technology wasn't there yet to make such large screens at required resolutions - and certainly not at acceptable prices. I suspect plasma will completely vanish from the market sooner rather than later.

I've only ever seen a few decent-looking plasma screens and they all cost well over US$20000. Even units that cost well over $10K didn't look as good as a CRT. And forget about anything under $5K.

The HD bandwagon is helping to sell a lot of barbage into homes of unsuspecting consumers. A lot of sets I wouldn't trade for my 4:3 standard def 32" JVC CRT (4 years old).

Bruno
_________________________
Bruno
Twisted Melon : Fine Mac OS Software

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#247528 - 05/02/2005 18:55 Re: HDTV Shopping [Re: drakino]
drakino
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
Well, I enjoyed it quite a bit this week:

Gaming on it is awesome, and I have yet to even pull out the Steel Battalion controller for it.

Now I just need to address this mess a bit more:


And sadly, my fun is over with it for now. Looks like I got a bad unit out of the box, as it has given a few lamp errors, locked up (picture is ok, but remote and front panel buttons do nothing), and dropped the brighter parts of the screen. A new one will be on my doorstep Tuesday. Somehow I don't think my boss would have liked me to take off time on Sunday to accept delivery then.

Sadly even with the ton of inputs on the thing, I still need a switch box of some kind for component. It has two component inputs, and I have 4 component devices currently (PS2, XBox, Gamecube, ReplayTV).

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#247529 - 05/02/2005 20:15 Re: HDTV Shopping [Re: hybrid8]
loren
carpal tunnel

Registered: 23/08/2000
Posts: 3826
Loc: SLC, UT, USA
Quote:
I've only ever seen a few decent-looking plasma screens and they all cost well over US$20000. Even units that cost well over $10K didn't look as good as a CRT. And forget about anything under $5K.



I've got a Panasonic 42" Plasma that I picked up for $2000 slightly used about 1.5 years ago and it looks way better than most of the projection screens I've seen lately. It's not HD but does the downsampling stuff. If I was buy now I'd still go the same route. You can pick up old model plasmas that are pretty amazing for half of what you'll pay for a comparable LCD. TEHO I guess. =]
_________________________
|| loren ||

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#247530 - 05/02/2005 20:20 Re: HDTV Shopping [Re: drakino]
eliceo
enthusiast

Registered: 18/02/2002
Posts: 335
You have the gamecube component pack, ive been trying to get one but they are damn near impossible to find for a reasonable price. How much better does it look in progressive games? Have you played Resident Evil 4 ?

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#247531 - 05/02/2005 20:35 Re: HDTV Shopping [Re: eliceo]
drakino
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
Quote:
You have the gamecube component pack, ive been trying to get one but they are damn near impossible to find for a reasonable price.


Only official place I know for it is direct from Nintendo. Mine is still shipping, but a friend of mine has it and it is a noticible improvement. Not quite as good as the XBox games going up to 720p or 1080i, but still an improvement over the composite cable.

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#247532 - 05/02/2005 20:48 Re: HDTV Shopping [Re: drakino]
eliceo
enthusiast

Registered: 18/02/2002
Posts: 335
They were on backorder till march. Maybe they still are but they just aren't saying anything. I went ahead and ordered one, thanks for the notice. I was looking at Lik-sang , but they were more expensive and shipping from taiwan.

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#247533 - 05/02/2005 21:37 Re: HDTV Shopping [Re: drakino]
Dignan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12318
Loc: Sterling, VA
I also got mine from Nintendo. It was much better. It also lets you play some games in widescreen. Soul Caliber 2, for example. All the menus and the on-screen stats in the game are strecthed, but you can see more of the actual fighting. It really does look better. It's too bad it didn't catch on.
_________________________
Matt

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#247534 - 06/02/2005 00:55 Re: HDTV Shopping [Re: Dignan]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31565
Loc: Seattle, WA
Quote:
It also lets you play some games in widescreen.

Although component video does look sharper than S-video, it's not required to play widescreen games with the Nintendo.

We don't have the component pack, and we hook up our Nintendo with S-video, but we can still play anamorphic widescreen games. The issue sin't the component pack, it's the games. Only some games have widescreen support, and it's never printed on the box whether it supports it or not. All you can do is go into the game's options menu and see if there is a 4:3/16:9 selection option.
_________________________
Tony Fabris

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#247535 - 06/02/2005 17:10 Re: HDTV Shopping [Re: tfabris]
Dignan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12318
Loc: Sterling, VA
Quote:
The issue sin't the component pack, it's the games. Only some games have widescreen support

Well, duh! I realize this, but I know that my system didn't let me choose that option until I was using the component cables. I haven't tried an S-Video cable, because I figured why would you buy the extra S-Video cable when you could just as well buy the component cable?
_________________________
Matt

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#247536 - 06/02/2005 18:55 Re: HDTV Shopping [Re: drakino]
DLF
addict

Registered: 24/07/2003
Posts: 500
Loc: Colorado, N.A.
Quote:
Quote:
Boy, I do wish Plazma had the legs to out last all the others.

Three big issues I have with any plasma display:

[blah blah blah]

3. Afraid of heights. Most plasmas still do not work well at high altitudes. The problem is painfully obvious in any consumer store here in Colorado. Walk into the plasma section, turn down any noise in the area, and you get a not so plesant buzz. Put one of those units in a house, and you have a buzz that cannot be covered up without raising sound volume of the content to police attracting levels. Why retailers even bother stocking plasma units with this problem here is beyond me, since almost all get returned when the issue starts up after a few days of operation.


Just ran across your comment after visiting a SoundTrack store last night (ostensibly, to check out the newest 3-LCD rear proj. HDTVs) , and boy did those plasma sets buzz like S.A. killer bees!

Now I've just got to decide between LCD & DLP technologies....
_________________________
-- DLF

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#247537 - 06/02/2005 20:32 Re: HDTV Shopping [Re: Dignan]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31565
Loc: Seattle, WA
Quote:
I know that my system didn't let me choose that option until I was using the component cables.

This surprises me. I didn't think it worked that way. I wonder why this is the case?
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Tony Fabris

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#247538 - 07/02/2005 17:20 Re: HDTV Shopping [Re: tfabris]
jmwking
old hand

Registered: 27/02/2003
Posts: 770
Loc: Washington, DC metro
Quote:
This surprises me. I didn't think it worked that way. I wonder why this is the case?

Silly - It's Nintendo. They want to sell more cable kits! They've been playing these games for a long, long time.

-jk

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#247539 - 07/02/2005 19:39 Re: HDTV Shopping [Re: jmwking]
Dignan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12318
Loc: Sterling, VA
At least they play. Selling a (very nice) component cable isn't like those gimmick games that require four GBAs or even four Gamecubes (multiplayer Mario Kart). Do the other two companies even sell a component cable?

Regardless, I'm not going to start another console debate. I don't hold anything against Nintendo. I applaud them for their focus on gameplay, and wouldn't chastise them for whatever "mistakes" they have made in this generation. They more than make up for it when I play Wind Waker and feel like I'm a kid again

*edit*
Oh, and I hope you like the TV, Tom. At least, when everything is sorted out. Sorry to hear about that. I'll have to go check out that DLP set. I haven't seen it yet. It sure seems to be the biggest thing lately.
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Matt

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#247540 - 07/02/2005 20:41 Re: HDTV Shopping [Re: Dignan]
drakino
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
Quote:
isn't like those gimmick games that require four GBAs


It's not a gimmick. It also requires 2-4 players when GBAs are involved, so odds are you can find enough friends for them. The one I own is the Zelda one, and as far as co-op games are concerned, it is one of the best I have ever played. The only problem I have is finding a good schedule to get people togther to play the game. But the use of a second private screen is an interesting and fun innovation.

LAN based multiplayer is becoming more and more common on consoles, and wasn't started by Nintendo. Halo was the big one that started this, since XBox live wasn't launched yet. Mario Kart is still 4 player on one console using split screen.

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#247541 - 07/02/2005 21:29 Re: HDTV Shopping [Re: Dignan]
msaeger
carpal tunnel

Registered: 23/09/2000
Posts: 3608
Loc: Minnetonka, MN
There are propritary component cables for both xbox and ps2.
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Matt

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#247542 - 07/02/2005 21:53 Re: HDTV Shopping [Re: drakino]
Dignan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12318
Loc: Sterling, VA
Quote:
Mario Kart is still 4 player on one console using split screen

Yeah, I think I figured that one out

I'm certain that the multiplayer Zelda game and the few other games that support it are just fine, but it creates more problems than it's worth. For one, I am the only person I know that owns a GBA, let alone someone my age. This creates the dilemma that I must find three other people to come over regularly, and only three other people, because who wants to play only part of an adventure game. It also means that, despite the fact that I would have paid immediately for a good single player version of Four Swords (hello, it looks like Link to the Past! I'm in heaven!), having played it it did not feel fun to play on my own.

The multiple consoles thing was just an addtion to the complaint. I shouldn't have made it seem like my main point or anything. Besides, I heard there are ways to even fool the Gamecube into playing Mario Kart online. I've never tried that, though.
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#247543 - 20/03/2005 17:32 Re: HDTV Shopping [Re: drakino]
drakino
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
Quote:
In regard to the aspect ratio, KKTV-DT always sends 1080i / 16:9. It was set up this way as not to burn bars in the sides of the viewers HDTV monitors.


Grr. that was the response I got back from my local CBS station after telling them their news anchors looked bloated due to the 4:3 content being sent 16:9. Anyone know of a TV that doesn't manually allow you to stretch the picture? I'd like to know before writing back about this.

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#247544 - 20/03/2005 21:13 Re: HDTV Shopping [Re: drakino]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31565
Loc: Seattle, WA
No, you're missing the point.

If your TV is getting a full 16:9 picture, it can't stretch the 16:9 picture wider than 16:9. At least, my TV doesn't do that.

The only way the TV will stretch for me, is if I'm watching a 4:3 source picture.

Since my HD-Tivo is running in 1080i and doing the upconverting for me, I have no stretch control over the local stations who broadcast 4:3 content on their 16:9 channels. Only a channel broadcasting in 4:3 can be stretched by the Tivo.

In other words, there is no way for me to get rid of the black bars when a local station is broadcasting 4:3 content on a 16:9 channel. So if I watch those channels, I get burn-in.

I agree that 4:3 stretched to 16:9 looks ugly. A better solution would be for them to do the following on their 16:9 station:

- Gray bars instead of black.
- Slightly move the positions of those bars periodically (or slowly over time) so that the sharp edge doesn't get burned in.

My TV does exactly that, when fed a 4:3 image from the S-video inputs. If only I could make the TV do that for 16:9 stations with black bars I'd be all set, but I can't.
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#247545 - 20/03/2005 22:06 Re: HDTV Shopping [Re: tfabris]
drakino
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
My main question is if a TV exists that is widescreen, but that forces 4:3 content to always be 4:3. Basicially the point I want to prove to the station is that by forcing 4:3 content to 16:9 on their end intentionally, they are removing control from the consumer watching their station. Where as if they would send the content properly, consumers who like to stretch content (either to fill the screen or to reduce burn in) could do so on their own using the standard controls of their TV.

Any more, I have noticed most modern sets offer several modes for dealing with 4:3. They can do a simple stretch, they can zoom in (and do so with a few methods), or offer a "panorama" mode that stretches the center less then the edges to avoid characters typicially in the middle from appearing bloated. Since the 4:3 content in being broadcast in 16:9, none of these modes can be selected.

Thankfully my unit does allow me to set 4:3 manually, thus returning the 4:3 content to a non stretched look. However, the second I tune to another local DTV station or to a voom channel, I have to undo this, as my Voom reciever picks up on the aspect ratio and puts in black bars on its own. if needed.

By what I can tell, the local FOX station broadcasts the proper aspect ratio and switches when the time comes. For example, during 24, I get a full 16:9 picture as intended. But when a commercial break comes on, I get the commercial in a pillar box format to ensure the 4:3 ratio is maintained.

On the other end of the spectrum, I see another problem with the station manually forcing content to be stretched. What happens on a 4:3 DTV set? Do they get letter box and pillar boxed due to the TV thinking it is a widescreen source?

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#247546 - 21/03/2005 02:30 Re: HDTV Shopping [Re: drakino]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31565
Loc: Seattle, WA
Quote:
My main question is if a TV exists that is widescreen, but that forces 4:3 content to always be 4:3.

No, the problem they're solving is the opposite of that. They're not sending a 4:3 picture. The channel is a 16:9 channel, period, they're sending a 16:9 picture.

The problem happens when they don't have true 16:9 content to broadcast on that channel. Then they have to choose how to fit the 4:3 show into that 16:9 frame.

Quote:
they are removing control from the consumer watching their station

No. The picture they're sending is 16:9 no matter what. It just happens to be a 4:3 show being shown on the 16:9 channel.

You can't stretch the 16:9 window any wider than 16:9, with any TV or receiver I know of.

They're not removing a choice, in fact, based on your next statement, they're giving you a choice where none would have existed before:

Quote:
Thankfully my unit does allow me to set 4:3 manually, thus returning the 4:3 content to a non stretched look.

Exactly. You can take that 16:9 picture and make it narrow. But if they'd done it the other way 'round, then you couldn't take the 4:3-pic-on-the-16:9 channel and make it wider, because the channel is already a 16:9 channel.

Get it?

Quote:
By what I can tell, the local FOX station broadcasts the proper aspect ratio and switches when the time comes. For example, during 24, I get a full 16:9 picture as intended. But when a commercial break comes on, I get the commercial in a pillar box format to ensure the 4:3 ratio is maintained.

I don't know for sure, but if I understand this correctly, what you're seeing is your Fox station putting up black bars on the sides. They're not changing the broadcast from 4:3 to 16:9 and back again. They're still broadcasting a 16:9 picture at all times, it's just that the sides of that picture happen to be black during the 4:3 commercials. They've made the opposite choice as your CBS station did.

And those, of course, are the stations that cause burn-in for me, because I can't make the black bars disappear. And I'll bet you can't either. Try it and let me know.

Now... Some very enlightened stations, I'm told, are doing gray bars instead of black. I wish the ones in my local area were.
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Tony Fabris

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#247547 - 21/03/2005 18:16 Re: HDTV Shopping [Re: tfabris]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
Well, 480p is a 4:3 picture, and is technically part of the HD specification. I don't know if anyone does it, oreven if it's possible for a single channel to switch back and forth, but it's vaguely possible that Tom's local Fox station does.

I imagine you're right, though, and that they pillar box the 4:3 picture into a 16:9 frame.

Personally, I'm a little disappointed with how my HDDirecTiVo deals with this stuff. I wish it would automatically produce the same output as input, or at least show me what the input was. For now, I have to guess what the original format was based on letterboxing, etc.
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#247548 - 21/03/2005 18:28 Re: HDTV Shopping [Re: wfaulk]
peter
carpal tunnel

Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4172
Loc: Cambridge, England
Quote:
Well, 480p is a 4:3 picture, and is technically part of the HD specification. I don't know if anyone does it, oreven if it's possible for a single channel to switch back and forth, but it's vaguely possible that Tom's local Fox station does.

I imagine you're right, though, and that they pillar box the 4:3 picture into a 16:9 frame.

Not that it's particularly relevant to hi-definition broadcasts in the US, but for whatever it's worth, standard PAL broadcasts in the UK definitely switch between 16:9 and 4:3 as required by the content, and there's a side-channel flag of some sort that tells the TV what it's up to. This is however not the panacea one might think, as (a) the aspect-ratio flag is often broadcast the wrong way round, and (b) if reception is a bit iffy, the TV will keep losing and re-finding the aspect-ratio flag and switching aspect ratio. John's TV, which is a CRT, blanks for about half a second on each switch. This gets annoying rather rapidly.

Peter

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#247549 - 21/03/2005 18:31 Re: HDTV Shopping [Re: peter]
andym
carpal tunnel

Registered: 17/01/2002
Posts: 3995
Loc: Manchester UK
AFD, Active Format Descriptor. Present in the MPEG2 stream or inserted on line 23 of a PAL picture. As long as you pass line 23 unaltered your widescreen TV should switch correctly
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Andy M

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#247550 - 21/03/2005 18:36 Re: HDTV Shopping [Re: peter]
andym
carpal tunnel

Registered: 17/01/2002
Posts: 3995
Loc: Manchester UK
Quote:
John's TV, which is a CRT, blanks for about half a second on each switch. This gets annoying rather rapidly.


We had a Philips TV at work that used to do a song and dance every time the AFD changed, it got binned a couple of days later. Ended up in a managers office who I'm sure thought it looked 'cool' every time it happened.
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Andy M

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#247551 - 21/03/2005 20:57 Re: HDTV Shopping [Re: tfabris]
drakino
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
Quote:
Quote:
My main question is if a TV exists that is widescreen, but that forces 4:3 content to always be 4:3.

No, the problem they're solving is the opposite of that. They're not sending a 4:3 picture. The channel is a 16:9 channel, period, they're sending a 16:9 picture.


The reason I asked the above was to find out if a widescreen TV existed that didn't allow a consumer to stretch a 4:3 feed to 16:9. I am aware they are doing the opposite, and that is what annoys me. So in a counter point to them, I want to point out that if they would send 4:3 content as 4:3, consumers could then stretch it as they please. Including using stretching methods beyond the simple expansion to fill the frame that many modern units offer.

Quote:
You can take that 16:9 picture and make it narrow. But if they'd done it the other way 'round, then you couldn't take the 4:3-pic-on-the-16:9 channel and make it wider, because the channel is already a 16:9 channel.


I am not asking them to broadcast 4:3 content with pillar boxes to fill a 16:9 frame. I am asking for them to broadcast 4:3 content as 4:3.

Quote:
I don't know for sure, but if I understand this correctly, what you're seeing is your Fox station putting up black bars on the sides.
And those, of course, are the stations that cause burn-in for me, because I can't make the black bars disappear. And I'll bet you can't either. Try it and let me know.


I'll change the setting on my decoder and see what happens.

The main reason this irritates me is because the local CBS station is the only station out of the 3 local and many satelite stations that I have to touch my TV remote to change aspect ratio.

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#247552 - 21/03/2005 21:14 Re: HDTV Shopping [Re: drakino]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
Quote:
The reason I asked the above was to find out if a widescreen TV existed that didn't allow a consumer to stretch a 4:3 feed to 16:9.

Mine doesn't. Okay, it's not really 16:9. It's 4:3, but it does 16:9 mode. It doesn't really allow me to select much of anything. That is, if the signal says 16:9, then it does 16:9; if it's 4:3, it does 4:3.

On the other hand, is this really something that you control on your TV and not on your HD receiver?
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Bitt Faulk

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#247553 - 21/03/2005 21:31 Re: HDTV Shopping [Re: wfaulk]
drakino
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
Quote:
On the other hand, is this really something that you control on your TV and not on your HD receiver?


I can control it on both. The TV is set to "Wide TV" for the HDMI input where the Voom box is, and the Voom box has a setting screen that asks how to treat 4:3 and 16:9 content. Both are set to "Preserve aspect ratio" and the system knows it is outputting the signal to a 16:9 TV due to a setting elsewhere.

The TV allows several settings on each input. Wide TV, Wide PC (it stops overscanning to fit the full 1280x720 on screen), 4:3, Stretch, Zoom mode 1 and 2 (with adjustments where it zooms) and Panorama stretching, where the outer edges are stretched more then the inner ones. Depending on what signal it is getting, some of these modes are not available at the time.

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#247554 - 21/03/2005 22:27 Re: HDTV Shopping [Re: drakino]
DWallach
carpal tunnel

Registered: 30/04/2000
Posts: 3810
Quote:
The reason I asked the above was to find out if a widescreen TV existed that didn't allow a consumer to stretch a 4:3 feed to 16:9. I am aware they are doing the opposite, and that is what annoys me. So in a counter point to them, I want to point out that if they would send 4:3 content as 4:3, consumers could then stretch it as they please. Including using stretching methods beyond the simple expansion to fill the frame that many modern units offer.

Many TVs, including my Hitachi, offer a non-linear "wide" stretch, where the middle third of the original screen is largely the same, and the outside two thirds are stretched to give the "wide" illusion. It's tollerable, but I prefer to watch things in their native aspect ratio. If you try watching something like CNN with the non-linear stretch, the scrolling ticker can easily get you seasick.

In combination with my HD-TiVo, I think I can do what you want, but it's a pain. If something is broadcast in HD but with a 4:3 aspect ratio and black bars, I can tell the TiVo to output 480i or 480p instead of the higher resolution choices. At that point, the TiVo is outputting a "normal" signal that the TV's stretching controls understand. The TV only "locks" to 16:9 if you give it a 720p or 1080i signal. The only reason I ever mess with this in practice is when I'm watching a letterboxed standard-def show from the satellite (e.g., Battlestar Gallactica), where I want to zoom in, rather than having cropping on all four sides.

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#247555 - 22/03/2005 01:02 Re: HDTV Shopping [Re: drakino]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31565
Loc: Seattle, WA
Quote:
if they would send 4:3 content as 4:3, consumers could then stretch it as they please.

Yes, agreed. I would love it if they did that.

But as was pointed out later in this thread, switching the channel's "type" from 4:3 to 16:9 and back again has its own set of technical issues. So, from what I've seen, most stations that mix 4:3 and 16:9 content simply broadcast as 16:9 all the time with black pillar bars.

Nasty, evil, burn-inducing black pillar bars.

Quote:
because the local CBS station is the only station out of the 3 local and many satelite stations that I have to touch my TV remote to change aspect ratio.

Yes, that is very irritating. Agreed completely.
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Tony Fabris

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#247556 - 22/03/2005 12:31 Re: HDTV Shopping [Re: tfabris]
Dignan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12318
Loc: Sterling, VA
Quote:
Nasty, evil, burn-inducing black pillar bars.

It's fine if you've got a 16:9 TV that doesn't burn in. It's preferable
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Matt

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#247557 - 22/03/2005 13:09 Re: HDTV Shopping [Re: Dignan]
burdell1
old hand

Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 931
Loc: Minnetonka, MN
Have you looked at the Hitachi LCD projection TVs? I bought one from a Sears Outlet store (where they sell TVs that have little scratches on the TV - not the screen) and I got it for half off. Plus, they through in the stand for free. It is the Hitachi 50v500 and it is really nice.....

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#247558 - 22/03/2005 13:12 Re: HDTV Shopping [Re: burdell1]
Dignan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12318
Loc: Sterling, VA
That's what I'm talking about: LCD rear projection. I wasn't looking for one, I was commenting on the situation

*edit*
if you notice, I was endorsing LCD rear projection earlier in this thread


Edited by Dignan17 (22/03/2005 13:13)
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