#247575 - 26/01/2005 16:09
ipod emulation
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addict
Registered: 14/11/2000
Posts: 474
Loc: The Hague, the Netherlands
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Given the fact that so many car manufacturers have plans to open their otherwise closed factory soundsystems to iPods, wouldn't it be just great if the Empeg were able to emulate an iPod?
How hard would that be? How much is known about the iPod interface?
Pim
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#247576 - 26/01/2005 16:30
Re: ipod emulation
[Re: pim]
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veteran
Registered: 21/01/2002
Posts: 1380
Loc: Erie, CO
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This is a great idea, it actually looks doable. This page describes the serial protocol of the 3G iPod (author says 4G should be the same) and it looks like it could possibly be run from the Empeg's serial port.at 19200 baud.
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#247577 - 26/01/2005 16:58
Re: ipod emulation
[Re: cushman]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31572
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Not a bad idea at all. Most of the stuff in this protocol is already supported by the empeg serial port and would merely need to be translated. In addition to the play/pause/etc functionality, it also lists this:
receive time information of the current song
receive status information Play, Pause, Stop
receive the number of songs in the current playlist
receive the index of the current played song in the current playlist
get artistname
get albumname
get songname
jump to a specific song in the playlist
jump to the mainplaylist
All of that except for the "jump to a specific song" is supported in the serial data with notify=1.
This is not a bad idea at all...
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#247578 - 26/01/2005 17:31
Re: ipod emulation
[Re: tfabris]
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veteran
Registered: 21/01/2002
Posts: 1380
Loc: Erie, CO
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Quote:
receive the number of songs in the current playlist
This is only in the dynamic data partition, but we know how to get it
Quote:
get albumname
this is in the FID tag entry, easy to get once you know the FID
Quote:
jump to a specific song in the playlist
jump to the mainplaylist
The emulator does not have to match exactly feature-to-feature with an iPod, either. I think the main features that would make it doable would be song display, controls (prev, next, pause) and playlist selection. The playlist selection one would be where the most work would have to be done.
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#247579 - 26/01/2005 19:24
Re: ipod emulation
[Re: pim]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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You guys have the "controlling the empeg as if it were an ipod" part spec'ed out, but how about audio out to these supposed factory units? Do they just have a 1/8 mini jack that plugs into the ipod, or is there some proprietary plug? I'm not an ipod person, so forgive my ignorance here.
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#247580 - 26/01/2005 20:23
Re: ipod emulation
[Re: tonyc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/12/2001
Posts: 5528
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Pretty sure that the iPod interfaces just have the audio output on that proprietory Apple connector along with the control interface.
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#247581 - 26/01/2005 20:25
Re: ipod emulation
[Re: tman]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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Ah, so, even if we did all the software stuff, we'd be on the hook to make an ipod plug -> serial/RCA adaptor?
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#247582 - 26/01/2005 20:26
Re: ipod emulation
[Re: tonyc]
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veteran
Registered: 21/01/2002
Posts: 1380
Loc: Erie, CO
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Looks like this connector diagram just shows right, left and ground like a standard 1/8th inch jack would have. No reason it would have to be more complicated than that (like aux-in adapters for OEM stereo CD changers), especially if the "thing" on the other end of the cable talked exactly like an iPod.
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#247583 - 26/01/2005 20:30
Re: ipod emulation
[Re: tonyc]
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veteran
Registered: 21/01/2002
Posts: 1380
Loc: Erie, CO
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Quote:
Ah, so, even if we did all the software stuff, we'd be on the hook to make an ipod plug -> serial/RCA adaptor?
Yup, worst case: splice.
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#247584 - 26/01/2005 22:17
Re: ipod emulation
[Re: cushman]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/06/1999
Posts: 2993
Loc: Wareham, Dorset, UK
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...or you could let me get them made up locally by my cable guy - he's doing new sled harnesses for me.
_________________________
One of the few remaining Mk1 owners...  #00015
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#247585 - 26/01/2005 22:26
Re: ipod emulation
[Re: schofiel]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/12/2001
Posts: 5528
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He's got a supply of the iPod docking plugs? I didn't think they were an off the shelf part.
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#247586 - 26/01/2005 22:29
Re: ipod emulation
[Re: tman]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/06/1999
Posts: 2993
Loc: Wareham, Dorset, UK
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He could find them.
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One of the few remaining Mk1 owners... #00015
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#247587 - 26/01/2005 23:01
Re: ipod emulation
[Re: tman]
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addict
Registered: 14/11/2000
Posts: 474
Loc: The Hague, the Netherlands
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Quote:
He's got a supply of the iPod docking plugs?
Wouldn't we need the reverse? We don't need something that plugs into an iPod; the car manufacturer will sort that out. We need something that plugs into an iPod cable, and that will probably be harder to find.
Pim
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#247588 - 26/01/2005 23:16
Re: ipod emulation
[Re: pim]
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addict
Registered: 14/11/2000
Posts: 474
Loc: The Hague, the Netherlands
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Oh, and this is what I was referring to when I made my original post. And of course, there's the Dension ice>Link and Alpine's solution. Pim
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#247589 - 27/01/2005 00:34
Re: ipod emulation
[Re: pim]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/12/2001
Posts: 5528
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Uh yeah. The socket I mean 
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#247590 - 27/01/2005 00:34
Re: ipod emulation
[Re: pim]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
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Ferrari? That's pretty un-exotic of them... Besides, who ever listens to the radio in one of those? The engine and exhaust have always been enough for me!
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Brad B.
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#247591 - 27/01/2005 12:26
Re: ipod emulation
[Re: cushman]
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addict
Registered: 14/11/2000
Posts: 474
Loc: The Hague, the Netherlands
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Quote:
No reason it would have to be more complicated than that (like aux-in adapters for OEM stereo CD changers), especially if the "thing" on the other end of the cable talked exactly like an iPod.
This exactly is the most important step for me; my next car has a hard-to-replace factory radio, for which no AUX-in solution exists. See this thread . But, an iPod solution exists. It involves two adapters: one by Connects2 that translates the proprietary CD changer signals into Sony CD changer signals. The second adapter is the Dension ice>Link that wil translate the Sony CD changer signals to iPod signals.
The fact that no simple AUX-in adapter exists probably means that the radio uses some form of querying in order to determine a CD changer is present. So if we can accomplish that using iPod emulation on the Empeg, then my main goal is reached.
Next thing that would be nice is using the audio commands on the steering wheel. Interchanging song information is of later use for me, as the radio and the factory and Sony CD changer protocols don't support that.
Maybe later Alfa Romeo/Blaupunkt will come with a headunit that supports the iPod natively. At that time song information may become interesting.
Could all of this iPod emulation be done in userspace, or would part of it need to be implemented in Hijack? I suppose some of the software for the M-Bus project could be reused.
Pim
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#247592 - 27/01/2005 12:34
Re: ipod emulation
[Re: pim]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/05/2001
Posts: 2616
Loc: Bruges, Belgium
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What a GREAT idea !! The way I see it, this would solve several of our problems, and breathe life into the Empeg for many years to come !! Because : * Emulating an iPod would make it compatible with all those ICE>link adapters, and those are available for almost every factory HU model. * The standard steering-wheel controls in cars would work with the Empeg ! (ok, vol up/down and track prev/next probably nothing more but that's already plenty...), because these steering wheel controls are connected to the standard HU. (and this HU can -through the ICE>link- control the iPod/Empeg) * Since the ICE>Link also shows the ID tag info of the tracks (on the iPod) on the screen of the factory HU, this would mean that we would have no more need for an external Empeg screen. All the info we would need would be on the display of the factory headunit ! This would also mean that we would then be able to build the Empeg into the glove compartment eg., and still be able to control it !!! (ok, we would maybe have to use an IR extender, but that's a very small problem and easy to tackle) I REALLY hope that somebody who has the necessary skills to tackle this problem will be persuaded to make such an emulator. it would be SO useful for all Empeg owners, seeing it's becoming increasingly difficult to install an Empeg in new cars. (most don't even come with a DIN slot anymore... 
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#247593 - 27/01/2005 12:57
Re: ipod emulation
[Re: pim]
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veteran
Registered: 21/01/2002
Posts: 1380
Loc: Erie, CO
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Quote:
Could all of this iPod emulation be done in userspace, or would part of it need to be implemented in Hijack? I suppose some of the software for the M-Bus project could be reused.
I believe all the tools are available in userspace. Of course we would have to have Hijack installed for access to /proc/empeg_notify.
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#247594 - 27/01/2005 13:19
Re: ipod emulation
[Re: cushman]
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addict
Registered: 14/11/2000
Posts: 474
Loc: The Hague, the Netherlands
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OK, now that we all agree that it's a good idea, and figure it's doable, the next step would be to actually do it. If noone else steps ahead it will probably have to be me. But, not owning an iPod or anyhing that can control it remotely, I wouldn't know where to start.
I could probably order the ice>Link ahead of my car, but I don't suppose it will do anything standalone. And if I wait for my car, I will probably have no Empeg for a month or so.
Could anyone recommend something for the purpose of simulation?
Thanks,
Pim
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#247595 - 27/01/2005 14:21
Re: ipod emulation
[Re: pim]
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veteran
Registered: 21/01/2002
Posts: 1380
Loc: Erie, CO
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A quick search did not turn up any software that controls the iPod from your computer - that would have been the best way. I guess you could get the ice>Link and a compatible head unit first to get the basics down.
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#247596 - 27/01/2005 17:52
Re: ipod emulation
[Re: cushman]
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addict
Registered: 14/11/2000
Posts: 474
Loc: The Hague, the Netherlands
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I see original headunits for the Alfa 147/GT being offered at eBay for EUR 50-60. This might actually solve two problems at once: 1) I'll be able to create a test environment 2) I may actually need to buy an older headunit, as it looks newer ones don't work with the ice>Link. See this thread. Pim
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#247597 - 27/01/2005 18:07
Re: ipod emulation
[Re: pim]
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veteran
Registered: 21/01/2002
Posts: 1380
Loc: Erie, CO
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Good luck! The project interests me because I do see more and more cars where the HU is non-removable, plus more and more cars have larger displays that are able to show more data (like the Prius). Right now I am fine with my install, but I can see two years from now I might be in the position to by a non-Empeg friendly car - and exploit the iPod's popularity by using this hack to have my beloved Empeg!
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#247598 - 27/01/2005 18:37
Re: ipod emulation
[Re: cushman]
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addict
Registered: 14/11/2000
Posts: 474
Loc: The Hague, the Netherlands
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I'm pretty sure we're not the only ones thinking of iPod emulation. As the iPod control is becoming a defacto standard, and since it doesn't require a display on the iPod (or its Ersatz), I predict we'll see phatbox-like solutions that use the iPod protocol pretty soon.
Pim
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#247599 - 27/01/2005 19:32
Re: ipod emulation
[Re: pim]
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veteran
Registered: 21/01/2002
Posts: 1380
Loc: Erie, CO
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You're right, I think we will see other devices emulate an iPod, but you were the first one on this board!
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#247600 - 27/01/2005 19:34
Re: ipod emulation
[Re: cushman]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/05/2001
Posts: 2616
Loc: Bruges, Belgium
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I would LOVE to see such an emulator, for reasons I've already stated above. It seems like a very cool project to do !
I wish I could be of any help. Unfortunately, I can't code to save my life.
_________________________
Riocar 80gig S/N : 010101580 red
Riocar 80gig (010102106) - backup
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#247601 - 29/01/2005 15:53
Re: ipod emulation
[Re: pim]
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addict
Registered: 27/02/2001
Posts: 569
Loc: Albany, NY
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FYI There are also ipod to car adapters here
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#247602 - 30/01/2005 15:51
Re: ipod emulation
[Re: pim]
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addict
Registered: 14/11/2000
Posts: 474
Loc: The Hague, the Netherlands
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Quote:
I see original headunits for the Alfa 147/GT being offered at eBay for EUR 50-60.
OK, I just won the auction for an older type, which should work both with ice>Link and the Bortesi AUX adapter.
Still, i'm hesitating. Visited my Alfa dealer and asked him about the details of the announced official iPod integration support. He couldn't tell for sure, but he figured it would become available for the 147 and the GT, as they share the radio's and most of the dashboard. He assumed the boardcomputer will be changed, to allow the dashboard display to be used for song information. This would mean it would be almost impossible to have an iPod-capable radio retrofitted in an older car.
Showing song information on the car display is not possible with the ice>Link. As this is just too good to let pass by, I will probably wait for it. 2 or 3 months, is what my dealer thinks. Now if he only knew, is was going to order a car this week if he hadn't said a thing ...
Pim
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#247603 - 30/01/2005 16:18
Re: ipod emulation
[Re: pim]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/05/2001
Posts: 2616
Loc: Bruges, Belgium
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Quote:
Showing song information on the car display is not possible with the ice>Link.
Are you sure ? This link shows the Ice>link plus is capable of showing ID3 text display on the display of the HU.
But, if you refer to it showing on the extended display right in front of the driver, you're probably right. However, I would not see this as a downside. As it is now, ID3 tags from mp3 cd's also don't show up on this extended display, but they do show up on the HU. The only thing that DOES show up on this display is RDS data. But I always forget that it is really there, and I ALWAYS look at the HU if I want to read it. That's why I don't really miss the ID3 tags not showing up there either. I don't know why this is. It's like the RDS data "vanishes" because of all the other data that is shown around it. (temperature and time/date).
It's really not all that.
_________________________
Riocar 80gig S/N : 010101580 red
Riocar 80gig (010102106) - backup
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#247604 - 30/01/2005 17:24
Re: ipod emulation
[Re: BartDG]
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addict
Registered: 14/11/2000
Posts: 474
Loc: The Hague, the Netherlands
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I meant it isn't possible with the ice>Link in an Alfa, because of limitations in the particular CD changer protocol. But now you are making me unsure.
I remember having read there's limited functionality when used in an Alfa, but I can't recall where I read it. Maybe on the now closed Dension forums.
Pim
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#247605 - 30/01/2005 18:00
Re: ipod emulation
[Re: pim]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/05/2001
Posts: 2616
Loc: Bruges, Belgium
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I don't think the functionality is limited at all. If it was, I think it would be mentioned on this site. Do you know that site already ? If not, go have a look, there's lots of interesting info to be found there! (and it's Dutch !  )
_________________________
Riocar 80gig S/N : 010101580 red
Riocar 80gig (010102106) - backup
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#247606 - 30/01/2005 18:16
Re: ipod emulation
[Re: BartDG]
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addict
Registered: 14/11/2000
Posts: 474
Loc: The Hague, the Netherlands
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Hmm, it says "track informatie, niet alle modellen".
Can't find any details on which models do and which don't.
Pim
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#247607 - 30/01/2005 18:27
Re: ipod emulation
[Re: pim]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/05/2001
Posts: 2616
Loc: Bruges, Belgium
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mailtje sturen ?
_________________________
Riocar 80gig S/N : 010101580 red
Riocar 80gig (010102106) - backup
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#247608 - 30/01/2005 21:00
Re: ipod emulation
[Re: BartDG]
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addict
Registered: 14/11/2000
Posts: 474
Loc: The Hague, the Netherlands
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On this page it says ice>Link Plus zorgt ervoor dat op sommige radio´s zelfs het nummer en artiest informatie (track informatie) getoond wordt op het display van de radio. Natuurlijk blijft deze informatie ook zichtbaar op uw iPod. Dension werkt er constant aan om het aantal radio’s waarbij dit mogelijk is uit te breiden (momenteel werkt deze functie alleen op Kenwood, Grundig en Alpine radio's). For our non-Dutch speaking audience: it says track information is only displayed on Kenwood, Grundig and Alpine radio's. Pim
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#247609 - 02/02/2005 23:10
Re: ipod emulation
[Re: pim]
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addict
Registered: 14/11/2000
Posts: 474
Loc: The Hague, the Netherlands
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Here is a not so good review of the Dension ice>Link Plus in an Alfa 147. If you can't read Italian, then read the English translation. Pim
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#247610 - 02/03/2005 22:29
Re: ipod emulation
[Re: pim]
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addict
Registered: 14/11/2000
Posts: 474
Loc: The Hague, the Netherlands
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It looks like Alfa's iPod integration solution is coming nearer: http://ginevra.ogilvy.it/ Pim
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#247611 - 19/04/2005 16:34
Re: ipod emulation
[Re: pim]
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addict
Registered: 14/11/2000
Posts: 474
Loc: The Hague, the Netherlands
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Alfa Romeo's iPod integration solution is now announced at both the italian and the global Alfa websites. And here are some pictures taken at a trade show in Rimini. What scares me is that none of the pictures show song info on either the radio display or the dashboard display. If this is is not possible, than there is no added value to this solution compared to the ice>Link. And it would be really silly; if the iPod is hidden, and you can't see song info or playlists on the radio or dashboard, then there's nowhere to see them. Pim
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#247612 - 19/04/2005 16:44
Re: ipod emulation
[Re: pim]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Well, it says you can display and control it from the dash.
How much do you want to bet, though, that the pocket it sits in is just a standard dash pocket with a cable hanging out. No cradling, per se, but, rather, just the same tacky cable that everyone else has.
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Bitt Faulk
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#247613 - 19/04/2005 16:58
Re: ipod emulation
[Re: wfaulk]
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addict
Registered: 14/11/2000
Posts: 474
Loc: The Hague, the Netherlands
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It is a custom pocket alright. Standard models have a holder for coffeecups and coins there.
What I will be needing is this dual din adapter
and the electronics from the iPod Pack, so I can put my Empeg
there instead of an iPod.
Pim
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#247614 - 19/04/2005 17:08
Re: ipod emulation
[Re: pim]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/05/2001
Posts: 2616
Loc: Bruges, Belgium
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Quote:
What scares me is that none of the pictures show song info on either the radio display
or the dashboard display. If this is is not possible, than there is no added value to this
solution compared to the ice>Link.
If the display of the iPod is not copied in some way, then the iPod is used for nothing more than a dumb big "cd-changer". Not good. OTOH, maybe that adapter could then be hacked, and be used to connect an Empeg to the standard HU.
Just a thought.
_________________________
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#247615 - 19/04/2005 17:16
Re: ipod emulation
[Re: BartDG]
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addict
Registered: 14/11/2000
Posts: 474
Loc: The Hague, the Netherlands
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Yes, that was the original idea. If I can use Alfa's adapter to control
the Empeg, I won't be needing feedback. After all, the Empeg will
be in the dash showing what it is playing.
But I'm already thinking ahead; if you could really hide the iPod and
see what is going on, you could also hide the iPod-emulating-Empeg,
or replace it with something custom built for this purpose (a Mini-ITX
box or something).
Just like you, my ultimate goal would be to have a stealth install.
Pim
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#247616 - 19/04/2005 17:58
Re: ipod emulation
[Re: pim]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/05/2001
Posts: 2616
Loc: Bruges, Belgium
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Quote:
But I'm already thinking ahead; if you could really hide the iPod and
see what is going on, you could also hide the iPod-emulating-Empeg,
or replace it with something custom built for this purpose (a Mini-ITX
box or something).
Just like you, my ultimate goal would be to have a stealth install.
What would be really cool is to install the Empeg a bit deeper inside the dash and then make a cover that looks exactly like the normal card- and cupholder, but that can be flipped open (with a hinge on the bottom or something like that), or simply attached to the Empeg's front. Instant stealth setup...
And what do you mean, use a Mini-ITX box? A car PC could never have the same funtionality as the Empeg! (not without a whole lot of work anyway...)
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Riocar 80gig S/N : 010101580 red
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#247617 - 19/04/2005 22:16
Re: ipod emulation
[Re: BartDG]
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addict
Registered: 14/11/2000
Posts: 474
Loc: The Hague, the Netherlands
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Quote:
And what do you mean, use a Mini-ITX box? A car PC could never have the same funtionality as the Empeg!
Don't want to sound to blasphemous here, but if the car manufacturer's iPod
control user interface is really good, you won't need the Empeg's display and
its user interface. And if you don't need that, it will be a lot easier to come with
a replacement, since it can be headless.
Automotive computer hardware is becoming practical and affordable. I really
like the VoomPC enclosure, the M1-ATX power supply and Pentium M/Celeron M
Mini-ITX motherboards like the DFI G5M100-N.
For software, I'm looking at MPD. This is a audio player that is designed as a
daemon, allowing to be controlled by many different clients. Once running,
it keeps running even without clients connected. It even remembers states
across reboots. It's very easy to write your own client using whatever platform.
There's even this nice PDA client. It wouldn;t be too hard to write an MPD
client that emulates the iPod serial interface.
MPD doesn't do everything the Empeg can, but it is approaching its
capabilities. It supports WAV, MP3, OGG, FLAC and AAC (even with
DRM), has crossfade, hierarchical playlists (not nested, though),
search functions and automatic gain. What is missing is cache and disk
spin control, but this could be done by a client, without changing MPD itself.
Pim
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#247618 - 20/04/2005 00:13
Re: ipod emulation
[Re: pim]
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member
Registered: 24/10/2000
Posts: 106
Loc: San Jose, CA
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I use MPD on my home jukebox setup. Works great!
-- Gary F.
_________________________
Eeyore, Original Owner -- Mk II 80 Gb, Blue
S/N #090000803
Tigger, 2nd Owner -- Mk IIa, 80 Gb, Blue
S/N #40103789
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