#250775 - 02/03/2005 15:12
valid alternative to empeg?
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new poster
Registered: 02/03/2005
Posts: 6
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I just recently found out about empegs, and I'm under the impression there are no real comparable in-dash products. Correct? Well, I don't really like the idea of having to spend a lot of money on a discontinued product, as awesome as they sound. And I've also been wanting to buy a portable MP3 player (leaning toward Creative, 40GB I believe) for a while now. So... I thought of the following idea. I *think* there are in-dash car stereos out there that have component inputs. What if I got one of those stereos and a portable MP3 player, and just kept the player in my car, and had it output its audio to the stereo? Sort of like the old days when we carried around portable CD players to hook into our car cassette decks. Anyone done anything like this or know of it being done? Before I go pioneering I'd like to draw on the experience of others (even though it doesn't sound too complicated, I wonder if I'm overlooking anything or making any wrong assumptions... like the existence of these stereos with component inputs, perhaps).
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#250776 - 02/03/2005 16:05
Re: valid alternative to empeg?
[Re: The111]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31594
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Yes, many existing CD players have auxiliary inputs, and many people plug portable MP3 players into those inputs. That will work just fine. You can also sometimes adapt a car's factory sound system to accept aux-input if you find a company that sells the right adapter. But if you're looking for the best feature set, in a device that was specifically designed for in-dash use, then the Empeg is still the best product of its kind. Before you decide, hang around here a bit, have a quick skim through the FAQ, and see if the empeg is the kind of thing you want. Those of us who like the empeg are a very specific breed. We consider maximum audio quality and maximum song storage capacity to be the ultimate goals. Secondary benefits to the empeg involve things like the visuals, the hackable Linux internals, and the player's networkability. These are things you don't get with a portable MP3 player. If those things appeal to you, then definitely consider an empeg seriously. But if all you want is to play a few MP3s in your car, then the plug-in-a-portable scheme is fine for you.
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#250777 - 02/03/2005 17:16
Re: valid alternative to empeg?
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 23/08/2000
Posts: 3826
Loc: SLC, UT, USA
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...and if you can find anyone in your area... try one out in person. It's one of those devices that you might not really "get" until you see it in use.
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#250778 - 02/03/2005 17:25
Re: valid alternative to empeg?
[Re: tfabris]
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new poster
Registered: 02/03/2005
Posts: 6
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Quote: We consider maximum audio quality and maximum song storage capacity to be the ultimate goals.
It's obvious you guys love your empegs, and it's obvious you're trying to recruit me , but as far as quality and storage, would there honestly be any difference with a 60GB Creative MP3 player hooked into the aux input of a decent stereo receiver? I can't see any reason for quality loss there. The total cost out of my pocket looks like it would be about the same and I'd also have a portable mp3 player, which I've always kind of wanted.
I'll agree your toys look very cool and the concept is awesome too. Honestly, I'd love to own one. But I'm looking at this from a practical and economic standpoint. Objectively speaking, is there anything I'd lose from my idea vs an empeg?
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#250779 - 02/03/2005 17:32
Re: valid alternative to empeg?
[Re: The111]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 17/01/2002
Posts: 3996
Loc: Manchester UK
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I think personally from a sound quality point of view, a well-encoded mp3 playing back on an ipod through an aux-in to a decent headunit will probably sound just as good as an empeg.
The beauty of an empeg is the interface, there's nothing like it.... yet.
_________________________
Cheers,
Andy M
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#250780 - 02/03/2005 17:53
Re: valid alternative to empeg?
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Quote: specifically designed for in-dash use
By this, he means that the empeg is actually usable while you're driving your car, as opposed to an iPod or similar, which will be virtually unusable unless you're at a stop light, a passenger, or about to be in a wreck.
Nothing against the iPods and other handheld units. Their UIs simply weren't designed for in-car operation.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
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#250781 - 02/03/2005 18:03
Re: valid alternative to empeg?
[Re: The111]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31594
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Quote: but as far as quality and storage, would there honestly be any difference with a 60GB Creative MP3 player hooked into the aux input of a decent stereo receiver?
Storage: Yes, since an empeg can easily do double that storage and more.
Quality: If you're an audiophile, yes, because the empeg's output stage is a higher quality, and it would be going straight into an amplifier uncolored. But if you're not an audiophile you won't notice a difference.
Another thing about quality: The increased storage capacity of an empeg means you can encode your MP3s at a much higher bit rate, thus having the extra storage be a factor in the quality. You can even (if you want to tolerate alpha software) do OGG or FLAC for even greater quality.
If you just download a bunch of pirated MP3s to listen to (as opposed to making them from the original CDs yourself) , then this isn't a factor, because you have no control over the quality or size of downloaded music files.
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#250782 - 02/03/2005 18:21
Re: valid alternative to empeg?
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 15/08/2000
Posts: 4859
Loc: New Jersey, USA
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Much of this will depend on your listening style. If you tend to have a single mix that you keep randomized and repeat, a portable is a good match to that. There would be little interaction with the UI, and your capacity would depend on the type of player you buy.
For many people here, the ability to create extremely complex playlists, custom filters and nearly unlimited storage space does not allow a portable to be an option. If you are looking for playlists, searching, direct access to your music on any number of different criteria, an empeg is a better choice.
I have never used an iPod. There are some portable players that do have a number of very strong features and UI capabilities to them - such as the Karma. If you are looking to directly interface with a radio, you are pretty much limited to icelink and ipod, though. If you are going through an aux-in, you have more options, including an empeg mounted elsewhere in the car.
No matter what portable you use, though, unless it has extremely tight integration into the car head unit (think ipod and icelink only), any time you want to change the tracks, pause, etc., you will be "fishing" for the buttons on the portable as it wanders around your dash / console / seat. This is a really bad combination with driving! Make sure whatever solution you select has a good remote control option.
That is another reason the empeg is such a strong choice (admittedly from a biased user) - it is designed for in car use and the interface can be customized to your listening style.
_________________________
Paul Grzelak 200GB with 48MB RAM, Illuminated Buttons and Digital Outputs
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#250783 - 02/03/2005 18:34
Re: valid alternative to empeg?
[Re: pgrzelak]
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new poster
Registered: 02/03/2005
Posts: 6
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Well, my listening style would be such that I keep every album in a folder of its own. That's about it, plain and simple. Like a shelf full of albums. I like to listen to the albums the way the artist intended. I haven't ever used a portable mp3 player, but I'm pretty sure they allow you to browse and play folders. I'm leaning toward the Creative Nomad. As far as driving safety, let's just say I'll take the risk. I'm good at multitasking, and I don't need to do that much track switching anyway. Whether the controls are located in your lap or on the dash, you have to look away from the road either way to see them.
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#250784 - 02/03/2005 18:41
Re: valid alternative to empeg?
[Re: The111]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Not when you have four large buttons and a knob and a large (usually) bright screen. Compare that to the buttons on the unit your looking at and its tiny, dim, screen. A glance at an empeg will give you as much information as a five second stare at a handheld player.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
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#250785 - 02/03/2005 18:47
Re: valid alternative to empeg?
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31594
Loc: Seattle, WA
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If there's a long enough cord on the portable, he could hold it up high and directly in front of him, so that he doesn't have to take his eyes far off the road to operate it.
One of the things I liked about my '88 VW GTI was that its radio was mounted very high on the dash, so that I could operate it out of my peripheral vision without taking my eyes off the road. Now, in the Honda, looking down at the empeg (which, despite its clean UI, I still have to do sometimes), I have to take my eyes way too far off the road.
If I did a portable, I'd definitely use a cord long enough so that could lift it high up.
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#250786 - 02/03/2005 19:24
Re: valid alternative to empeg?
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
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The ladies love wires all over your passenger compartment! It's a subtle way to get them to look at your package when you put the player on your lap while playing a playlist you made for them!
Sometimes they let out a sexy moan when the wires get caught in your seat belt. At least I think it's sexy.
_________________________
Brad B.
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#250787 - 02/03/2005 19:35
Re: valid alternative to empeg?
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31594
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Yeah, well they fawn over my purse with the Empeg logo stitched on it, too, so....
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#250788 - 02/03/2005 19:45
Re: valid alternative to empeg?
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
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Just put a Coach logo on it and they'll beg to carry it for you!
_________________________
Brad B.
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#250789 - 02/03/2005 21:35
Re: valid alternative to empeg?
[Re: The111]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/05/2001
Posts: 2616
Loc: Bruges, Belgium
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Quote: Well, my listening style would be such that I keep every album in a folder of its own. That's about it, plain and simple. Like a shelf full of albums. I like to listen to the albums the way the artist intended. I haven't ever used a portable mp3 player, but I'm pretty sure they allow you to browse and play folders. I'm leaning toward the Creative Nomad.
I don't know about the Creative Nomad, but I have noticed that most (all?) portable players don't support hierarchical playlists (browse and play folders as you call it). They all use "soup views" which sorts all your tracks by artist, album, year, etc...
I've never liked soup views. This is one reason why I prefer the Empeg. It does allow to browse and play folders...
_________________________
Riocar 80gig S/N : 010101580 red Riocar 80gig (010102106) - backup
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#250790 - 02/03/2005 21:54
Re: valid alternative to empeg?
[Re: BartDG]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31594
Loc: Seattle, WA
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You can almost always create playlists. Just not hierarchichal ones.
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#250791 - 03/03/2005 04:58
Re: valid alternative to empeg?
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
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Quote: We consider maximum audio quality and maximum song storage capacity to be the ultimate goals. Secondary benefits to the empeg involve things like the visuals, the hackable Linux internals, and the player's networkability.
I'll clarify that as some empeg owners consider max quality/capacity as the ultimate goals. I don't. I got mine because the only place I used to listen to music was in the car, and I hated dragging CDs with me. That's it. I actually put what you consider "secondary" benefits higher on my list of requirements than your "ultimate" goals -- Linux, because it's EOL, and I know I can write new software if I absolutely have to; ethernet, because I didn't have USB when I bought it. Portables weren't a viable option at the time, as, IIRC, they were all still flash based -- the Empeg was the only choice that met my requirements.
And now you'd have to pry it from my cold, dead hands.
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#250792 - 03/03/2005 14:52
Re: valid alternative to empeg?
[Re: The111]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
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If you're going to try to integrate a portable player into a car system, your best bet is an iPod. There just aren't any compelling conectivity solutions for any other portable players at this time. And likely not going to be.
Keep in mind that if you want to upgrade storage on a portable player, the lowest cost option is to simply replace the entire player with a new one. There will likely be larger capacity iPods later in the year. An empeg can go to 200GB today. And to 240GB in a month or two.
Another option is the Dension player which features a removable drive which doubles as a portable player (it doesn't have a display when portable).
Bruno
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#250793 - 03/03/2005 17:34
Re: valid alternative to empeg?
[Re: The111]
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old hand
Registered: 28/12/2001
Posts: 868
Loc: Los Angeles
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One of the big advantages of an Empeg is plain ease of use, I get in my car and turn it on, and the music starts playing, I turn it off and the music stops. No need to worry about what the player is doing or having to make sure to turn it on and off every time I get in. And as others have mentioned, the controls are very nice... if you get a Sony stalk (if you can find one) or other steering wheel remote it gets even easier. Quote: Well, my listening style would be such that I keep every album in a folder of its own.
Yeah, that used to be me too, and when am I at home that is still how I listen to my MP3s, but the Empeg has really changed how I listen to music in the car, and having 4000 of your favorite songs set on random is excedingly cool, like a radio station that only plays what you like and with fewer repeats and no commercials.
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Ninti - MK IIa 60GB Smoke, 30GB, 10GB
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#250794 - 03/03/2005 17:43
Re: valid alternative to empeg?
[Re: ninti]
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new poster
Registered: 02/03/2005
Posts: 6
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Quote: having 4000 of your favorite songs set on random is excedingly cool, like a radio station that only plays what you like and with fewer repeats and no commercials.
I've tried that at home on my PC, and I am bothered by the extreme volume variations between songs from different albums/artists. I've tried several different "volume normalization" plugins for Winamp, but none work the way I'd like. They all end up normalizing WITHIN tracks, meaning intentional volume dynamics within one song get ruined. How do you handle this (in your empeg or at home)?
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#250795 - 03/03/2005 17:48
Re: valid alternative to empeg?
[Re: The111]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31594
Loc: Seattle, WA
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The same way the winamp plugins do.
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#250796 - 03/03/2005 18:10
Re: valid alternative to empeg?
[Re: The111]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Volume knobs are easier to use than GUI slide widgets.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
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#250797 - 04/03/2005 00:27
Re: valid alternative to empeg?
[Re: The111]
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old hand
Registered: 28/12/2001
Posts: 868
Loc: Los Angeles
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Quote: I've tried that at home on my PC, and I am bothered by the extreme volume variations between songs from different albums/artists.
Yeah, I know what you mean. There is an auto volume adjustment in Hijack (see top of the screen for a link), but I tend not to use it because it handles some songs poorly.
Really, this problem used to bother me quite a bit as well, but it doesn't anymore. Whether it because it has become less noticable with a good system or the fact that CDs are a lot more consistant in volume levels now or just that I can find the volume knob with my eyes closed I'm not sure.
_________________________
Ninti - MK IIa 60GB Smoke, 30GB, 10GB
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#250798 - 04/03/2005 06:02
Re: valid alternative to empeg?
[Re: The111]
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addict
Registered: 30/05/2002
Posts: 695
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... I am bothered by the extreme volume variations between songs from different albums/artists. I've tried several different "volume normalization" plugins for Winamp, but none work the way I'd like. They all end up normalizing WITHIN tracks, meaning intentional volume dynamics within one song get ruined.I think the only method that will do what you want best would be to normalize all tracks to a certain volume when you rip them from CD. Many rippers have this feature, and the option is usually a percentage (i.e., normalize to 98% of maximum). But that doesn't help you with all the encoded files you already have stored on your hard drive(s). I don't use this myself, as I have always constantly fiddled with the volume. I find myself adjusting it all the time, even with different songs from the same album, in order to prevent certain frequencies from causing my interior paneling in the car to vibrate.
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#250799 - 04/03/2005 14:30
Re: valid alternative to empeg?
[Re: DeadFire]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31594
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Quote: I think the only method that will do what you want best would be to normalize all tracks to a certain volume when you rip them from CD. Many rippers have this feature, and the option is usually a percentage
Gah. How many times do I have to tell everyone this?
NORMALIZING DOES NOT MAKE ALL YOUR TRACKS SOUND LIKE THEY ARE THE SAME VOLUME.
CDS ARE ALREADY NORMALIZED WHEN YOU BUY THEM AND YET THEY STILL SOUND LIKE THEY ARE ALL AT DIFFERENT VOLUMES.
SELECTING THE NORMALIZE BOX IN YOUR RIPPER DOES NOT HELP THIS PROBLEM.
Aaaaaggggh.
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#250800 - 06/03/2005 01:12
Re: valid alternative to empeg?
[Re: tfabris]
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addict
Registered: 30/05/2002
Posts: 695
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Ack. Terrible brain fart. I read those entries long ago. I understood them long ago, and made a conscious choice not to normalize anything. Ever. Long ago. And yet somehow I forgot all about that. Oops.
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