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#268099 - 26/10/2005 15:59 xPLRioNet is now MediaNet
damage
stranger

Registered: 27/11/2002
Posts: 35
MediaNet is a completely redesigned free server software for the rio, exstreamer, slimp3 and mediamvp. it is fully modular which allows new features/devices to be added easier. it is under very active development and has support for the xPL home automation protocol and the ability to insert text-to-speech into the playing stream, allowing for caller id announcements, etc.

get it at http://www.myhap.org.uk
join the yahoo group at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ukha_medianet

i'm not affiliated with the development, i'm just a happy user.

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#268100 - 26/10/2005 16:54 Re: xPLRioNet is now MediaNet [Re: damage]
bmark
new poster

Registered: 14/01/2005
Posts: 18
Damage,

Does this software package allow the three things I really care about:

1- Allow the server PC to enter sleep (STR) mode?
2- Eable "Search by Title" using the remote control in "predictive text" fashion.
3- Allow synchronised playing of connected Rios?

As you can see, the stock ARM software allows items 1. and 2., but not 3.
Trio allows only 3.

Cheers

Mark

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#268101 - 26/10/2005 18:44 Re: xPLRioNet is now MediaNet [Re: bmark]
damage
stranger

Registered: 27/11/2002
Posts: 35
1 - no
2 - sort of - it will work the first letter (you can jump to the M's or whatever), that's all i've ever used
3 - yes

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#268102 - 27/10/2005 04:09 Re: xPLRioNet is now MediaNet [Re: damage]
medianet
new poster

Registered: 04/08/2004
Posts: 21
1. no
2. sort of, it does single letter, and multi-letter search - i've never quite understood 'predictive text' and am interested in making the modification if someone can explain it in simple terms to me please?
3. Not yet, but will do in a future release (rio support is based on trio/riot, many thanks to Paul, so will use the same method)

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#268103 - 27/10/2005 07:28 Re: xPLRioNet is now MediaNet [Re: medianet]
Roger
carpal tunnel

Registered: 18/01/2000
Posts: 5528
Loc: London, UK
Predictive searches (as the empeg does them) are explained in the FAQ.
_________________________
-- roger

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#268104 - 27/10/2005 15:54 Re: xPLRioNet is now MediaNet [Re: Roger]
medianet
new poster

Registered: 04/08/2004
Posts: 21
Quote:
Predictive searches (as the empeg does them) are explained in the FAQ.


Thanks, but i'm still not totally clear...

Quote: "everything starting with "LA V" or "LA T" or "LA U" is on the screen"

Where have the letters JK and BC gone to in all this please?

I assumed the fuzzy logic meant it searched for all combinations?

Thanks
Tony

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#268105 - 27/10/2005 16:42 Re: xPLRioNet is now MediaNet [Re: medianet]
andy
carpal tunnel

Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5677
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
Quote:

Thanks, but i'm still not totally clear...

Quote: "everything starting with "LA V" or "LA T" or "LA U" is on the screen"

Where have the letters JK and BC gone to in all this please?

I assumed the fuzzy logic meant it searched for all combinations?


It does, the description in the FAQ isn't as clear as it could be.

If you follow the example in the FAQ, but also had a song on your player with the title "Katherine" then that song would also match. The matched songs are displayed in alphabetical order, so you would see:
  • Katherine
  • La Tonya
  • La Villa Strangiato

In fact you would see any songs listed that began with any of these 27 combinations of letters:
  • JAT
  • JAU
  • JAV
  • KAT
  • KAU
  • KAV
  • LAT
  • LAU
  • LAV
  • JBT
  • JBU
  • JBV
  • KBT
  • KBU
  • KBV
  • LBT
  • LBU
  • LBV
  • JCT
  • JCU
  • JCV
  • KCT
  • KCU
  • KCV
  • LCT
  • LCU
  • LCV


It works just the same way that predictive text on a mobile phone works (though on a mobile you tend to only see the most likely match, rather than a list of all of the matches).
_________________________
Remind me to change my signature to something more interesting someday

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#268106 - 27/10/2005 18:32 Re: xPLRioNet is now MediaNet [Re: medianet]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 30639
Loc: Seattle, WA
Yeah, um, I was trying to be simple in my description rather than pedantic.
_________________________
Tony Fabris

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#268107 - 28/10/2005 04:09 Re: xPLRioNet is now MediaNet [Re: tfabris]
medianet
new poster

Registered: 04/08/2004
Posts: 21
Quote:
Yeah, um, I was trying to be simple in my description rather than pedantic.


Thanks Guys. I figured that was the case. But as I have a very simple mobile phone I wanted to be sure i wasn't missing anything clever in the "new fangled" devices!

Thanks
Tony

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#268108 - 28/10/2005 10:05 Re: xPLRioNet is now MediaNet [Re: tfabris]
andy
carpal tunnel

Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5677
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
Quote:
Yeah, um, I was trying to be simple in my description rather than pedantic.


Half way through generating my 27 combinations I started musing on whether it would be easier to write some code to generate it
_________________________
Remind me to change my signature to something more interesting someday

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#268109 - 28/10/2005 10:50 Re: xPLRioNet is now MediaNet [Re: andy]
Roger
carpal tunnel

Registered: 18/01/2000
Posts: 5528
Loc: London, UK
Quote:
Half way through generating my 27 combinations I started musing on whether it would be easier to write some code to generate it


I did write that code once. Wait... that was in the Rio Receiver software
_________________________
-- roger

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#268110 - 28/10/2005 13:24 Re: xPLRioNet is now MediaNet [Re: Roger]
bmark
new poster

Registered: 14/01/2005
Posts: 18
Well now we have exhausted that topic (and Tony will implement it this afternoon ), how about "Sleep mode". With my eco-friendly credentials gnawing at my conscience, I struggle to accept using an application that requires the server to be permanently on when WOL is out there and available

Am I the only one that cares about this? The stock ARM handles this perfectly (thank you Roger) but tRio doesn't, and neither does Medianet. I am not a tecchie, so bear with me, but is it tough to do or is it that no one really wants it?

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#268111 - 28/10/2005 14:48 Re: xPLRioNet is now MediaNet [Re: bmark]
medianet
new poster

Registered: 04/08/2004
Posts: 21
Quote:
Well now we have exhausted that topic (and Tony will implement it this afternoon ),


Looks like he wont be able to. I was going to do it by adding fields to the database for easy lookup, but just realised that the different devices supported by medianet have the letters mapped to different keys....

I though i could store, say, upto 10 chars as numbers so shania twain would be 7424289246. But this would only work with rio (and identically mapped remotes). And i can't see anyway of doing it on the fly in an oledb sql statement (which would have been better)

Anybody have any thoughts please?

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#268112 - 28/10/2005 14:54 Re: xPLRioNet is now MediaNet [Re: bmark]
medianet
new poster

Registered: 04/08/2004
Posts: 21
Quote:
how about "Sleep mode". With my eco-friendly credentials gnawing at my conscience, I struggle to accept using an application that requires the server to be permanently on when WOL is out there and available


The problem is that the servers are also really the client... without the server working the client devices are useless

Quote:
Am I the only one that cares about this?


Quite possibly

Quote:
The stock ARM handles this perfectly (thank you Roger) but tRio doesn't, and neither does Medianet. I am not a tecchie, so bear with me, but is it tough to do or is it that no one really wants it?


Speaking for medianet the rio is only one device it supports, the other devices need the server to function in any way. e.g. mvp, slimp3 etc will all start complaining if the server vanishes (then there would be no clock/date function etc etc
Also as medianet does TTS / HA control etc it needs the devices alive and kicking to provide the quickest response possible

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#268113 - 28/10/2005 15:19 Re: xPLRioNet is now MediaNet [Re: medianet]
Roger
carpal tunnel

Registered: 18/01/2000
Posts: 5528
Loc: London, UK
Quote:
And i can't see anyway of doing it on the fly in an oledb sql statement (which would have been better)


The way it's implemented in ARM is that the client sends up a regex match, e.g. "[stu][ghi][abc][lmn][ghi]", and the server takes the first 3 groups and generates the 27* different prefixes, and then asks the database for matching items (it hits the database 27 times). From these results, it applies the rest of the regex to get the final results.

* except it's more than 27, because each group in the regex has the number in it as well.

Then all you need is a table which tells you, for each device, which letters are on which button.
_________________________
-- roger

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#268114 - 28/10/2005 15:35 Re: xPLRioNet is now MediaNet [Re: Roger]
medianet
new poster

Registered: 04/08/2004
Posts: 21
Quote:
(it hits the database 27 times). From these results, it applies the rest of the regex to get the final results.


Thanks for the info

That's what i was worried about. Hitting a database of 50,000+ tracks 27 times (exponentially more if more characters are entered) is something i'd really like to avoid...

Just rechecked the remotes, and it seems only 1 doesn't have the same mappings (exstreamer). I guess some sticky labels would sort the problem...

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#268115 - 28/10/2005 17:49 Re: xPLRioNet is now MediaNet [Re: medianet]
bmark
new poster

Registered: 14/01/2005
Posts: 18
Thanks for exploring this guys. I have to say that the search by title is my party piece: I love asking guests what song they would like to hear and then getting it in a half dozen keystrokes.
Have others expressed the view that the ARM implementation is sadly missed in the other server options?

I guess the "sleep" option is a no-go in Medianet

Paul I know you have been working in UPnP support, but any thoughts if either the "sleep" or "search" features are likely to be implemented in tRio?

Cheers

M


Edited by bmark (29/10/2005 13:49)

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#268116 - 29/10/2005 07:03 Re: xPLRioNet is now MediaNet [Re: medianet]
Roger
carpal tunnel

Registered: 18/01/2000
Posts: 5528
Loc: London, UK
Quote:
Hitting a database of 50,000+ tracks


It doesn't matter how many tracks if the database is indexed properly. You said earlier that you're using OLEDB? That kind of suggests that you're using a sensible database.

I can't remember what upper limit the ARM database has (and it's not as high as I'd have liked), but it never suffered from performance problems doing this. It was fully-indexed on most of the interesting fields.

Quote:
27 times (exponentially more if more characters are entered)


No, you misunderstand. The ARM software only hits the database for combinations of the first 3 characters. Then it filters the results itself. This was done precisely to avoid the exponential nature of the search. 3 characters seemed like a good tradeoff between hitting the database and doing the filtering in code.
_________________________
-- roger

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#268117 - 29/10/2005 07:13 Re: xPLRioNet is now MediaNet [Re: Roger]
Roger
carpal tunnel

Registered: 18/01/2000
Posts: 5528
Loc: London, UK
Quote:
a good tradeoff between hitting the database


The other thing which occurs to me: You can do this in SQL Server, but I don't know if it's exposed via OLEDB. You can send all 27 queries to the server as a single batch, and you'll get back 27 resultsets in the same response, thus saving a bunch of DB round-trips.
_________________________
-- roger

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#268118 - 29/10/2005 10:59 Re: xPLRioNet is now MediaNet [Re: damage]
julf
veteran

Registered: 01/10/2001
Posts: 1290
Loc: Amsterdam, The Netherlands
I assume it's still Windows-only
Would love to use MediaNet, but there is no way I will introduce a Windows server on my network just for one application... :/

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#268119 - 29/10/2005 11:04 Re: xPLRioNet is now MediaNet [Re: medianet]
julf
veteran

Registered: 01/10/2001
Posts: 1290
Loc: Amsterdam, The Netherlands
Quote:
rio support is based on trio/riot


Hmm. So is the xPL stuff done on the server (windows box) or on the Receiver?

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#268120 - 30/10/2005 05:20 Re: xPLRioNet is now MediaNet [Re: Roger]
medianet
new poster

Registered: 04/08/2004
Posts: 21
Quote:
[
Quote:
27 times (exponentially more if more characters are entered)


No, you misunderstand. The ARM software only hits the database for combinations of the first 3 characters. Then it filters the results itself. This was done precisely to avoid the exponential nature of the search. 3 characters seemed like a good tradeoff between hitting the database and doing the filtering in code.


tbh I want to avoid making any major changes to the source modules. In medianet each source module (e.g. music, jukebox, browse) actually generates the menu for the device (and the device tells the module how/when to navigate). The modules so far are able to make very simple single request queries to the database, and i'd like this text method to be able to do the same. Hence adding a key representing the possible combinations

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#268121 - 30/10/2005 05:22 Re: xPLRioNet is now MediaNet [Re: Roger]
medianet
new poster

Registered: 04/08/2004
Posts: 21
Quote:
Quote:
a good tradeoff between hitting the database


The other thing which occurs to me: You can do this in SQL Server, but I don't know if it's exposed via OLEDB. You can send all 27 queries to the server as a single batch, and you'll get back 27 resultsets in the same response, thus saving a bunch of DB round-trips.


This what i'd really like to be able to do. But not sure how to do it! Will have to have a play. I'm happy with restricting to first 3 or 4 chars if i can do it on the fly so no need for keys (and also means the mappings on the remote become irrelevant too)

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#268122 - 30/10/2005 05:24 Re: xPLRioNet is now MediaNet [Re: julf]
medianet
new poster

Registered: 04/08/2004
Posts: 21
Quote:
I assume it's still Windows-only
Would love to use MediaNet, but there is no way I will introduce a Windows server on my network just for one application... :/


Each to there own i guess

Seriously though i run a server 2003 (and previously xp) 24/7 running all sorts of stuff and have never been forced into a reboot or had a crash. I do think windows gets a bad rep. It's more down to how it's treated imo

Yes it is windows only, the .net framework makes development a doddle. Sorry.

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#268123 - 30/10/2005 05:26 Re: xPLRioNet is now MediaNet [Re: julf]
medianet
new poster

Registered: 04/08/2004
Posts: 21
Quote:
Quote:
rio support is based on trio/riot


Hmm. So is the xPL stuff done on the server (windows box) or on the Receiver?


Everything is done on the server

The server is really both the server and the clients, the client devices are not much more than dumb terminals

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#268124 - 30/10/2005 08:36 Re: xPLRioNet is now MediaNet [Re: medianet]
andy
carpal tunnel

Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5677
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
Quote:

Seriously though i run a server 2003 (and previously xp) 24/7 running all sorts of stuff and have never been forced into a reboot or had a crash. I do think windows gets a bad rep. It's more down to how it's treated imo



I think you'll find that Julf's objections to Windows are more than just technical...

Quote:

Yes it is windows only, the .net framework makes development a doddle. Sorry.


You know that running .NET code on non-Windows enviroments can be relatively straight-forward, thanks to mono ?
_________________________
Remind me to change my signature to something more interesting someday

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#268125 - 30/10/2005 10:24 Re: xPLRioNet is now MediaNet [Re: andy]
julf
veteran

Registered: 01/10/2001
Posts: 1290
Loc: Amsterdam, The Netherlands
Quote:
I think you'll find that Julf's objections to Windows are more than just technical...

Indeed - but some technical reasons too. Apart from the usual ideological reasons, my major concern is a bout security. I do run Windows here, but only on a couple of well-controlled (and firewalled-off) workstations. Most of my servers are OpenBSD, Linux is reserved for bleeding-edge workstations. With UNIX, I can at least pretend I know exactly what's going on... But I am also not a friend of .net as a programming environment.

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#268126 - 30/10/2005 14:43 Re: xPLRioNet is now MediaNet [Re: andy]
medianet
new poster

Registered: 04/08/2004
Posts: 21
Quote:
Quote:

Yes it is windows only, the .net framework makes development a doddle. Sorry.


You know that running .NET code on non-Windows enviroments can be relatively straight-forward, thanks to mono ?


I think someone tried it on this, and it wouldn't run. tbh i don't have the time to try and support it on mono.

Perhaps when i finally get together the source code and development layout for release some kind soul might like to take up the challenge

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#268127 - 04/11/2005 15:20 Re: xPLRioNet is now MediaNet [Re: medianet]
medianet
new poster

Registered: 04/08/2004
Posts: 21
Quote:
1. no
2. sort of
3. Not yet


Slight update

1. No never, let the planet burn just kidding!

2. Yes - upto 10 characters deep - thanks for the advise all

3. Work is now in progress...

Regards
Tony

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#268128 - 06/11/2005 16:44 Re: xPLRioNet is now MediaNet [Re: medianet]
bmark
new poster

Registered: 14/01/2005
Posts: 18
Sounds like great progress. Please post when the syncing feature is ready, or you need a willing tester.

Cheers
M

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