#292542 - 24/01/2007 12:50
Re: Hilary Clinton
[Re: JBjorgen]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 18/01/2000
Posts: 5682
Loc: London, UK
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Quote:
seems to at least stand for what he believes in
I'd rather vote for someone who stands for what I believe in.
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-- roger
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#292543 - 24/01/2007 13:14
Re: Hilary Clinton
[Re: Roger]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 27/02/2004
Posts: 1901
Loc: London
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Quote:
I'd rather vote for someone who stands for what I believe in.
Yeah, I've stopped voting now that Screaming Lord Sutch has died
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#292544 - 24/01/2007 13:36
Re: Hilary Clinton
[Re: tahir]
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old hand
Registered: 14/08/2001
Posts: 886
Loc: London, UK
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Quote:
Yeah, I've stopped voting now that Screaming Lord Sutch has died
The leader may have died, but the party lives on:
http://www.omrlp.com/
Quote:
As we in The Official Monster Raving Loony Party prepare for government we are very aware that we consistently advocate the wearing of hats as an all-purpose cure for society’s ills
_________________________
Mk2a RioCar 120Gb - now sold to the owner of my old car
Rio Karma - now on ebay...
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#292545 - 24/01/2007 13:50
Re: Hilary Clinton
[Re: JBjorgen]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Quote:
I'd rather vote for someone like Obama who, while I don't agree with his politics, seems to at least stand for what he believes in.
I understand where you're coming from, but GWB seems to take a stand for what he believes in, but from my point of view, his belief seems to be based on destroying America. Idealism is a great thing, but it can be twisted, too, especially if the ideal itself starts off twisted.
That said, I'm not sure that Obama is as up to the task as people would think or hope.
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Bitt Faulk
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#292546 - 24/01/2007 17:13
Re: Hilary Clinton
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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Quote:
That said, I'm not sure that Obama is as up to the task as people would think or hope.
Care to elaborate a bit on what leads you to believe he may not be up to the task? Actually, is "the task" defined in this context as winning the election? Doing the job well? Both? Neither?
I have my own reservations about Obama, but I'm curious as to what yours are. I will say that I'm glad he's feeling free to speak his mind and fire back at he right wing noise machine, which already puts him ahead of John Kerry. That's certainly not setting the bar very high, but it's a definite improvement from the muddled, cautious, "Senatorial" stances taken by other prominent Democrats in the last half-decade or so.
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#292547 - 24/01/2007 18:28
Re: Hilary Clinton
[Re: tonyc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Sorry. I mean that I don't think that he's as idealistic in practice as people would make him out to be.
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Bitt Faulk
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#292548 - 24/01/2007 21:59
Re: Hilary Clinton
[Re: wfaulk]
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old hand
Registered: 23/07/2003
Posts: 869
Loc: Colorado
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Quote:
Sorry. I mean that I don't think that he's as idealistic in practice as people would make him out to be.
Would that, then, make him more realistic in practice? If so, I'm definitely down. I'm had it up to here with idealism. I just want someone who can deal with things the way they are, rather than the way they'd like them to be. King George, I'm looking at you here.
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Dave
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#292549 - 25/01/2007 00:50
Re: Hilary Clinton
[Re: JBjorgen]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5546
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
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I'd rather vote for someone like Obama who, while I don't agree with his politics, seems to at least stand for what he believes in
Until it reaches the point where GWB is now... "My mind is made up. Don't confuse me with facts."
tanstaafl.
_________________________
"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
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#292550 - 25/01/2007 17:40
Re: Hilary Clinton
[Re: webroach]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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Quote:
I'm had it up to here with idealism. I just want someone who can deal with things the way they are, rather than the way they'd like them to be.
Obama's your guy, then. He *talks* about grandiose ideals, but his policies are much less ambitious. As this commentary explains,. that can be a blessing or a cursse:
http://www.prospect.org/weblog/2007/01/post_2581.html
Seems to me that idealism has a place in certain situations, but it depends on what those ideals are as to how it will be received. Making idealistic speeches and backing only sensible, widely-supported policy is fine for a senator, but won't cut it when you're given the power of setting policy (to one extent or another) or at the very least, choosing how policy is executed. Some issues in today's America require idealism (I'd argue healthcare is one of them) while some probably require more realism (I'd say Iraq and the war on terror fall into that category.)
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#292551 - 25/01/2007 18:09
Re: Hilary Clinton
[Re: tonyc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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From the comments to that post: Quote:
The important thing a year out from the primaries isn't wonkish policy particulars, it's the rhetoric. You have to prepare the battlefield so that people reject scaremongering claims.
That's actually a really good point. Of course, it doesn't explain his voting record, which shows much more moderation than his rhetoric, regardless of suggesting his own policies. Of course, this may all be a good thing, and, despite my statements above, I would have no problem supporting him in an election. He's just not my ideal candidate, and, I think, has less chance of actually winning than a white man with a "normal" name. (To be clear, that is not my preference, but my lack of faith in the American people.)
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
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#292552 - 25/01/2007 19:19
Re: Hilary Clinton
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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And, Ezra's response: http://www.prospect.org/weblog/2007/01/post_2584.htmlI'm inclined to agree with him. That's probably idealistic in and of itself, because political realities do inject themselves into all of these plans. But healthcare falls into the "don't compromise" category for me. Lead, and let those who oppose your leadership come around, even if that includes an electorate that might not quite understand the dollars and cents of it all.
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#292554 - 26/01/2007 13:31
Re: Hilary Clinton
[Re: JBjorgen]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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Quote:
As long as YOU agree. GWB "leads" this way and you aren't too keen on it last I checked. 
Your selective quoting kinda loses the context of my statement. On healthcare, I would appreciate any true leadership. If it's something I don't agree with, it's at least a starting point. GWB's "plan", in fact, is a step in the right direction. It's certainly not enough of a step, and it will benefit those who already have healthcare more than those who do not, but I applaud him for at least paying lip service to an issue other than Iraq and Social Security "reform." I also didn't like the specifics of the Clinton healthcare plan, but it served to at least get the issue moving at a time when not many were talking about it.
Or, to put it another way, there are issues that can benefit from some bold, controversial, and possibly unpopular leadership. Ensuring that every American has access to affordable healthcare that doesn't break the bank of paying consumers and line the pockets of plan providers is one of those issues, in my book. The decision to invade Iraq, Iran, and whoever is next on their list is one that could probably benefit more from some concensus thinking and sober analysis of the details.
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#292555 - 26/01/2007 13:44
Re: Hilary Clinton
[Re: tonyc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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So, what do you guys think about Chuck Hagel? He's been getting a lot of pub lately for being the harshest Republican critic of the Iraq War. In fact, he was way ahead of a lot of Democrats on voicing early opposition to the war, though he did initially vote for the AUMF that led us there.
Some of his other positions keep him off my short list of candidates I'd vote for, but if the primaries come and go and my choices are Chuck Hagel or a Democrat with a muddled/inconsistent position on the Iraq war, I might have to do some serious thinking.
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#292556 - 26/01/2007 14:51
Re: Hilary Clinton
[Re: tonyc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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He's come out against Iraq, but I disagree with almost every other one of his standpoints. I can't imagine a situation where I'd vote for him, even against a pro-war Democrat (which won't happen).
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Bitt Faulk
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#292557 - 26/01/2007 15:08
Re: Hilary Clinton
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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I found another quiz (make sure to select "2008 Presidential speculation" at the top). The matches generated by the quiz don't seem very accurate, but the summary of stances of the candidates linked from the results is good information (the "Joe Blow's answers" and "Joe Blow's stances" links).
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
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#292558 - 27/01/2007 15:15
Re: Hilary Clinton
[Re: furtive]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 19/09/2002
Posts: 2494
Loc: East Coast, USA
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Quote:
vote for Sen. Barack Obama
"Obama"? Seriously people, you don't get much closer to "Osama". That alone will loose him the vote of the uninformed public. Sadly, I suspect America is not ready to elect a president without an "American sounding" name.
_________________________
- FireFox31 110gig MKIIa (30+80), Eutronix lights, 32 meg stacked RAM, Filener orange gel lens, Greenlights Lit Buttons green set
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#292559 - 27/01/2007 15:32
Re: Hilary Clinton
[Re: FireFox31]
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addict
Registered: 20/11/2001
Posts: 455
Loc: Texas
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"Obama"
Middle name is Hussein? Probably not going to work. But I would vote for him before I vote for Hillary. Do you realize that if she were elected (and then re-elected), that will be 28 years of the Presidency in two families? I need a break from the Clintons and Bushes.
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#292560 - 27/01/2007 18:00
Re: Hilary Clinton
[Re: blitz]
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enthusiast
Registered: 21/02/2006
Posts: 325
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Hi,
I heard one at work the other day, maybe everyone has already heard it. I take no credit for it, there are alot of smarter people out there than me.
If Hilary was to have Obama as a running mate...
The slogan "With Yo-Mama and Obama you won't have to worry about Osama" would apply..
<grin>
Ross
_________________________
In SI, a little termination and attention to layout goes a long way. In EMC, without SI, you'll spend 80% of the effort on the last 3dB.
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#292561 - 27/01/2007 20:16
Re: Hilary Clinton
[Re: FireFox31]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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There has already been a lot of media talk about Obama's name, from "accidentally" misspelling his name as "Osama" to "accidentally" misspelling Osama's name as "Obama". There has also been a smear campaign trying to show that he attended an Islamic indoctrination school in Indonesia as a boy (which has already been thoroughly debunked).
But your point remains. Certainly a lot of people interested in keeping him out of the White House think that implying that he's got terrorist connections, mostly based on his name alone, is a useful tactic in discrediting him. And I'm afraid that they're right -- the American people are that stupid.
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Bitt Faulk
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#292562 - 28/01/2007 05:25
Re: Hilary Clinton
[Re: wfaulk]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 20/01/2002
Posts: 2085
Loc: New Orleans, LA
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For the record, It's not just Americans that are that stupid. All people are. As the saying goes; A person is smart, people are stupid.
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#292563 - 30/01/2007 03:03
Re: Hilary Clinton
[Re: lectric]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 06/10/1999
Posts: 2591
Loc: Seattle, WA, U.S.A.
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Quote:
For the record, It's not just Americans that are that stupid. All people are. As the saying goes; A person is smart, people are stupid.
I pedaled home with the specific intent of adding a grumpy post to this thread, but I got distracted by Mexico, Love and Parakeets. Enough of that.
Wimpy relativist that I am, I tend to gauge some (negative?) attributes against some vague qualitative denominator or measure of expectations and capability. So when somebody asks me what I think the worst beer in the world is, I can quickly answer "Bud", not because it is *absolutely* the worst beer in the world -- you can find worse -- but becasue I can not think of any beer that sells more units and which is made with such a degree of technical sophistication and celebrated consistency...that is so bloody awful.
Stupid? "All people are"? Well, a fair number of those "all people" grow up malnourished in a lice-infested yurt. They have mildewed grain and rickets. We have school lunches. They have river blindness. We have cell phones with built-in 3 megapixel cameras. They have female circumcision. We have Comcast.
I mean, here in the U.S. of A. we have had public libraries, public schools, National Public Radio, uncensored airwaves and an imitation free press and free (maybe) elections. Granted, some of these may be on the way out or already gone, but we have had them. And most of the members of our electorate have had them. Or believed they had them.
But when I look at it real hard, it wasn't the people of some country with endemic river blindness that elected George W. Bush. Possibly twice.
Stupid-est.
_________________________
Jim
'Tis the exceptional fellow who lies awake at night thinking of his successes.
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#292564 - 30/01/2007 05:50
Re: Hilary Clinton
[Re: Dignan]
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stranger
Registered: 11/12/2000
Posts: 105
Loc: Seattle, WA USA
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Hmm, I took the quiz and matched up with Sen. Sam Brownback - never heard of him. Thanks for the link.
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#292565 - 30/01/2007 21:06
Re: Hilary Clinton
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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Okay, this is much more like it. It could be a political stunt (though a risky one at this point, and very far out from the '08 primaries) but it's about time a prominent Democrat had at least as much conviction on the issue as a GOP stalwart like Hagel. Hopefully this will spurn the rest of the Democratic caucus to grow a set and oppose the war instead of talking about opposing the war. With this, Barack Obama moves ahead of the Inanimate Carbon Rod on my Presidential short list.
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#292566 - 31/01/2007 01:10
Re: Hilary Clinton
[Re: tonyc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 06/10/1999
Posts: 2591
Loc: Seattle, WA, U.S.A.
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Quote:
Okay, this is much more like it. It could be a political stunt (though a risky one at this point, and very far out from the '08 primaries) but it's about time a prominent Democrat had at least as much conviction on the issue as a GOP stalwart like Hagel. Hopefully this will spurn the rest of the Democratic caucus to grow a set and oppose the war instead of talking about opposing the war.
With this, Barack Obama moves ahead of the Inanimate Carbon Rod on my Presidential short list.
My sig du jour notwithstanding, I am not a big Obama booster; don't actually know too much about him. What I do know is that a lot of the Democratic Party's declared candidates completely failed the Iraq test and don't deserve to run, never mind be elected. The fact that Obama isn't among those failures and has some charisma puts him way up there in my book even if I can (and I can) find areas where I don't like his positions. But he *really* needs to quit smoking. What a *stupid* vulnerability!
I think Obama's withdrawal call is a good thing. I don't think it is very risky. He has to differentiate himself from Clinton and to not do so would be riskier, I think. So, I could wonder if it is a stunt, but it is at least consistent with his past positions vis-a-vis Iraq. And it is the right position. If it is calculated to help distinguish him from Clinton? Great.
So, would OBAMA/RICHARDSON '08 work?
It is interesting to watch John McCain commit political suicide. What a complicated, conflicted guy. Hard core, self righteous, but couldn't manage to stand up to Karl Rove. John, I think it is just desserts time. Bye, bye.
A while back I sent Howard Dean a threatening letter. I let him know that if the DNC is so brain dead that it would put forward Clinton, that I am going to stay home. Not vote. I didn't get what I would call a personalized response, but Howard's email robot now sends me a message at least once a week. Should I be encouraged?
If Obama makes some headway with this, I am unclear on the actual effect. Right now I think Bush's strategic plan for Iraq comes down to him studying the new line of brush mowers from DR Power Equipment. That and bein' The Decider. Wouldn't it be great if Shrub couldn't leave some poor fool holding that bag? But I bet he will. With a vengeance.
And, given my abiding faith in our vaunted Two-Party System, I wouldn't be at all surprised if that bag holder will be the new President Clinton. Or the poor Republican bastard who beats her.
_________________________
Jim
'Tis the exceptional fellow who lies awake at night thinking of his successes.
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