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#323771 - 26/06/2009 05:10 Re: What is Comcast *really* doing to their customers? [Re: wfaulk]
Cris
pooh-bah

Registered: 06/02/2002
Posts: 1904
Loc: Leeds, UK
Originally Posted By: wfaulk
Well, it's currently a free service for Britons. (I guess they assume you all pay your TV license.) They probably don't have a good way to charge people.


No, as previously stated it's most defiantly not free, the current cost for one house hold is £142.50. And they have a great way of collecting that, it's called the law. They assume that every house in the UK has a TV of some form and if you don't register a TV licence they will start sending you letters and eventually the threat is followed through with a man knocking on your door. They used "TV Detector Vans" at one point but I think it was largely accepted that was just a scare tactic, now they use the power of the government database. As stupid as it sounds they have a very low tolerance for people not paying and people do go to jail if they refuse to pay and the fines can be quite substantial too.

Cheers

Cris.

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#323772 - 26/06/2009 06:02 Re: What is Comcast *really* doing to their customers? [Re: tman]
Roger
carpal tunnel

Registered: 18/01/2000
Posts: 5683
Loc: London, UK
Originally Posted By: tman
Also when you buy a TV, they're supposed to note down your details and forward it onto the TV licensing agency.


The same applies for TV tuner cards -- I bought a Hauppage card from somewhere on Tottenham Court Road, and they took down my address details and forwarded them to the agency.
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-- roger

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#323773 - 26/06/2009 09:29 Re: What is Comcast *really* doing to their customers? [Re: Cris]
snoopstah
enthusiast

Registered: 07/01/2002
Posts: 339
Loc: Squamish, BC
Originally Posted By: Cris
It is not free for me in the UK to watch Top Gear or Dr Who, I am legally bound to pay a TV licence. I have no option but to pay this if I own a TV set, even if I don't watch the BBC and just watch DVDs I still have to pay the licence.

No you don't.

Link

Nor do you need one to watch iPlayer programming after the show was originally broadcast (see link at the bottom of that page).

So if you wanted to watch Top Gear or Dr. Who in the same way that Tony does so (i.e. after it has been broadcast, even if only by an hour or two) you could do so legally for 'free' (i.e. without needing a TV license)


Edited by snoopstah (26/06/2009 09:35)
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#323774 - 26/06/2009 10:03 Re: What is Comcast *really* doing to their customers? [Re: Cris]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
Originally Posted By: Cris
No, as previously stated it's most defiantly not free, the current cost for one house hold is £142.50.

I meant the iPlayer stuff. I guess you could look at that as being part of the TV license, but if you actually had no TV in your house and legitimately didn't pay the TV license, you could still get to iPlayer for free.
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Bitt Faulk

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#323775 - 26/06/2009 10:26 Re: What is Comcast *really* doing to their customers? [Re: wfaulk]
Cris
pooh-bah

Registered: 06/02/2002
Posts: 1904
Loc: Leeds, UK
Good point, but I think they are looking to change that in some way. Some kind of broadband tax that would cover things like iPlayer.

You do still have to pay the licence if you own a TV but don't even have it tuned in and just watch DVDs, the fact the equipment is capable of picking up a live broadcast is enough.

I'm not complaining about the licence system, I think it's a good thing. And that is proved by people living in a country where some of the most popular programs ever made come from still want to watch BBC content. My point was that even though some people's perception that we get it for free so they should be able to get it for free doesn't make it any more or less of a crime when you illegally download it on a torrent.

Cheers

Cris.

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#323776 - 26/06/2009 10:56 Re: What is Comcast *really* doing to their customers? [Re: Cris]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
Originally Posted By: Cris
You do still have to pay the licence if you own a TV but don't even have it tuned in and just watch DVDs, the fact the equipment is capable of picking up a live broadcast is enough.

That TV Licensing FAQ snoopstah linked, which appears to be official, specifically says that you're wrong:
Quote:
You do not need a TV Licence if you only use your TV to watch videos and DVDs or as a monitor for your games console.


Edited by wfaulk (26/06/2009 10:56)
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#323777 - 26/06/2009 11:05 Re: What is Comcast *really* doing to their customers? [Re: andy]
peter
carpal tunnel

Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4180
Loc: Cambridge, England
Originally Posted By: andy
The part where my moral story breaks down a bit is that I wouldn't dream of downloading a film, even though I guess I could use the same justification as with the TV shows (in that just about every film gets shown on TV at some point).

Films give me qualms too: if the entire music industry were wound up tomorrow, which is effectively what would happen if copyright were made inapplicable to digital data, then there would still be music (indeed, music would arguably be better off) -- but if the entire film industry were wound up, then there wouldn't still be films.

Peter

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#323778 - 26/06/2009 11:07 Re: What is Comcast *really* doing to their customers? [Re: wfaulk]
peter
carpal tunnel

Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4180
Loc: Cambridge, England
Originally Posted By: wfaulk
That TV Licensing FAQ snoopstah linked, which appears to be official, specifically says that you're wrong:
Quote:
You do not need a TV Licence if you only use your TV to watch videos and DVDs or as a monitor for your games console.

In theory, yes. But I think that in practice the onus is often on you to prove that you never use the built-in tuner. Which is, philosophically speaking, a difficult thing to prove. Though people have. This issue used to be a fertile source of pedantry flamewars on that fertile ground for pedantry flamewars, the Cambridge newsgroup cam.misc.

Peter

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#323779 - 26/06/2009 11:08 Re: What is Comcast *really* doing to their customers? [Re: Cris]
mlord
carpal tunnel

Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14491
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: Cris
.. doesn't make it any more or less of a crime when you illegally download it on a torrent

s/download/upload/

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#323780 - 26/06/2009 11:21 Re: What is Comcast *really* doing to their customers? [Re: pca]
g_attrill
old hand

Registered: 14/04/2002
Posts: 1172
Loc: Hants, UK
Originally Posted By: pca

At the moment anything mains powered with a TV tuner in it is classed as a TV, and legally requires a license for the premises in which it is used, although there are some caveats to this I can't be bothered to look up at this time of night wink


The main exemption is that you can use as many TV receviers as you like, as long as they aren't used for receiving broadcast TV (specifically currently broadcasting TV).

So you can install a TV (but don't tune it!), hook it up a PC and watch timeshifted shows on iPlayer, but not the live feeds. edit: Ok, this was posted earlier.


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#323781 - 26/06/2009 11:25 Re: What is Comcast *really* doing to their customers? [Re: peter]
g_attrill
old hand

Registered: 14/04/2002
Posts: 1172
Loc: Hants, UK
Originally Posted By: peter

In theory, yes. But I think that in practice the onus is often on you to prove that you never use the built-in tuner. Which is, philosophically speaking, a difficult thing to prove. Though people have. This issue used to be a fertile source of pedantry flamewars on that fertile ground for pedantry flamewars, the Cambridge newsgroup cam.misc.


The onus is on them to prove you are using it to watch broadcast TV. If you have a tuned TV on the premises and they somehow got a search warrant (they need evidence of use for this), then it could be tricky, but if the TV was untuned they wouldn't get a conviction without other evidence.



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#323782 - 26/06/2009 11:42 Re: What is Comcast *really* doing to their customers? [Re: g_attrill]
Cris
pooh-bah

Registered: 06/02/2002
Posts: 1904
Loc: Leeds, UK
Originally Posted By: g_attrill


So you can install a TV (but don't tune it!), hook it up a PC and watch timeshifted shows on iPlayer, but not the live feeds. edit: Ok, this was posted earlier.



Hmmm interesting, this has changed my understanding. It certainly never used to be as clear cut as that.

Still doesn't make downloading content illegally ok, even here in the UK the licence issued to you on iPlayer only lasts 30 days a torrent divx file for example is outside any legal licence so is just as bad as any other pirate goods.

Cheers

Cris.


Edited by Cris (26/06/2009 11:44)

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#323783 - 26/06/2009 11:48 Re: What is Comcast *really* doing to their customers? [Re: Cris]
tman
carpal tunnel

Registered: 24/12/2001
Posts: 5528
I remember somebody going to great efforts to actually remove the tuner in his TV because he only ever watched foreign satellite TV so didn't want or need to watch regular broadcasts. I think in the end he won but it involved an incredible amount of hassle and effort...

I guess they've changed their policy since then.

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#323831 - 29/06/2009 05:05 Re: What is Comcast *really* doing to their customers? [Re: Roger]
pedrohoon
enthusiast

Registered: 06/08/2002
Posts: 333
Loc: The Pilbara, Western Australia
Originally Posted By: Roger
Originally Posted By: tman
Also when you buy a TV, they're supposed to note down your details and forward it onto the TV licensing agency.


The same applies for TV tuner cards -- I bought a Hauppage card from somewhere on Tottenham Court Road, and they took down my address details and forwarded them to the agency.


And if you had bought it online from an overseas retailer...?
_________________________
Peter.

"I spent 90% of my money on women, drink and fast cars. The rest I wasted." - George Best

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#323845 - 29/06/2009 21:24 Re: What is Comcast *really* doing to their customers? [Re: peter]
canuckInOR
carpal tunnel

Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
Originally Posted By: peter
if the entire film industry were wound up, then there wouldn't still be films.

Yes, there would be. Unless you meant "there wouldn't be $120-million dollar, craptacularly story-less, blockbuster VFX circle-jerks." Much like there is an indie music scene, there is also very much an indy film scene.

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#323846 - 29/06/2009 21:32 Re: What is Comcast *really* doing to their customers? [Re: canuckInOR]
andym
carpal tunnel

Registered: 17/01/2002
Posts: 3996
Loc: Manchester UK
Originally Posted By: canuckInOR
Originally Posted By: peter
if the entire film industry were wound up, then there wouldn't still be films.

Yes, there would be. Unless you meant "there wouldn't be $120-million dollar, craptacularly story-less, blockbuster VFX circle-jerks." Much like there is an indie music scene, there is also very much an indy film scene.


Yes, but most of it is crap made by just the same kind of self-indulgent tw*ts who just haven't got their big break yet.
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Cheers,

Andy M

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#323857 - 30/06/2009 08:50 Re: What is Comcast *really* doing to their customers? [Re: canuckInOR]
peter
carpal tunnel

Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4180
Loc: Cambridge, England
Originally Posted By: canuckInOR
Yes, there would be. Unless you meant "there wouldn't be $120-million dollar, craptacularly story-less, blockbuster VFX circle-jerks."

Right, I'd not mourn those. (And one thing about VFX-fest films is that if they're worth seeing at all, they're worth seeing in a real cinema with big screen and sound system. So there is a revenue stream available there.) But according to IMDB, even "Brokeback Mountain", most of which was two dudes sitting round a campfire not even saying all that much, cost $44 million to make. Clearly some of that went on overpricing by suppliers (and actors?) who knew their customers were loaded -- overpricing, in other words, which would soon vanish if film-makers lost their cosy monopoly on digital copying of their work. But it still seems that making films which don't suck is still really quite expensive compared to making music which doesn't suck.

I'm very glad that "The Fellowship of the Ring" ($93M) and "Lawrence of Arabia" ($15M in 1962 dollars) were made, and were made the way they were.

Peter

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#323858 - 30/06/2009 09:48 Re: What is Comcast *really* doing to their customers? [Re: peter]
andym
carpal tunnel

Registered: 17/01/2002
Posts: 3996
Loc: Manchester UK
Originally Posted By: peter
But according to IMDB, even "Brokeback Mountain", most of which was two dudes sitting round a campfire not even saying all that much, cost $44 million to make. Clearly some of that went on overpricing by suppliers (and actors?) who knew their customers were loaded -- overpricing, in other words


I don't see how it's any different to Football (eugh!) where blokes who would most likely be binmen, carpet fitters or insurance salesmen in another life can be paid £100k a week to chase after a ball. These industries are all self perpetuating with salaries that increase year on year like Moore's law.

With regards to technology and equipment, costs really can get out of hand very quickly. Film stock alone can be ludicrously expensive, add to that the hire cost of decent cameras, lighting and grip equipment.

Also, the film and TV industry in the US is massively unionised which means they really do pay people large sums of money to just sit on their asses all day doing nothing.
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Cheers,

Andy M

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#323860 - 30/06/2009 11:20 Re: What is Comcast *really* doing to their customers? [Re: andym]
hybrid8
carpal tunnel

Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
So, Unions are indirectly responsible for film piracy. They should cover that in one of their next public service announcements.
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Bruno
Twisted Melon : Fine Mac OS Software

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#323861 - 30/06/2009 12:28 Re: What is Comcast *really* doing to their customers? [Re: hybrid8]
andym
carpal tunnel

Registered: 17/01/2002
Posts: 3996
Loc: Manchester UK
Originally Posted By: hybrid8
So, Unions are indirectly responsible for film piracy. They should cover that in one of their next public service announcements.


Er, no. I'm simply saying that the unionised labour in that industry has resulted in the increase of salaries and numbers of people involved which, in turn, results in the increase in overall cost of a production.

I'm all for unions when they help support members being treated unfairly by their employers, but when they start engaging in Spanish practices, that's when I have a problem.
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Cheers,

Andy M

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#323862 - 30/06/2009 12:33 Re: What is Comcast *really* doing to their customers? [Re: andym]
peter
carpal tunnel

Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4180
Loc: Cambridge, England
Originally Posted By: andym
I don't see how it's any different to Football (eugh!) where blokes who would most likely be binmen, carpet fitters or insurance salesmen in another life can be paid £100k a week to chase after a ball. These industries are all self perpetuating with salaries that increase year on year like Moore's law.

With regards to technology and equipment, costs really can get out of hand very quickly. Film stock alone can be ludicrously expensive, add to that the hire cost of decent cameras, lighting and grip equipment.

Well, that's one difference from football, then: at least more money does buy you more gear (and even "Brokeback Mountain" probably had vapour-trails and so on removed in post-production) and thus, in theory, a better end-product -- though diminishing returns can of course set in. Whereas with football, as long as you're paying Eric Cantona or Jimmy Greenhoff or whoever the current superstars are, enough that they can give up their day-job and be full-time footballers, presumably extra money on top of that doesn't really cause them to produce better-quality football. (And how come, given that TV plays such a massive part in popularising the sport and lionising its stars, it's the TV people paying the clubs in order to televise their matches, and not the other way round?)

Peter

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#323866 - 30/06/2009 15:52 Re: What is Comcast *really* doing to their customers? [Re: andym]
hybrid8
carpal tunnel

Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
Originally Posted By: andym
I'm all for unions when they help support members being treated unfairly by their employers, but when they start engaging in Spanish practices, that's when I have a problem.


The problem is that most unions are crooked and all unions abuse their bargaining power. At least in North America.

Anyway, it doesn't seem like cinema piracy has put a dent in movie profits at all.
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Bruno
Twisted Melon : Fine Mac OS Software

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#323872 - 30/06/2009 17:10 Re: What is Comcast *really* doing to their customers? [Re: hybrid8]
andym
carpal tunnel

Registered: 17/01/2002
Posts: 3996
Loc: Manchester UK
Originally Posted By: hybrid8
Originally Posted By: andym
I'm all for unions when they help support members being treated unfairly by their employers, but when they start engaging in Spanish practices, that's when I have a problem.


The problem is that most unions are crooked and all unions abuse their bargaining power. At least in North America.


My personal experience of unions in the US (particularly in New York) is exactly that. The companies I dealt with did the majority of their work in New Jersey and left installation in Manhattan until the absolute last moment.
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Cheers,

Andy M

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#323884 - 30/06/2009 23:16 Re: What is Comcast *really* doing to their customers? [Re: peter]
Heather
addict

Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 510
Loc: NY
Originally Posted By: peter
(And how come, given that TV plays such a massive part in popularising the sport and lionising its stars, it's the TV people paying the clubs in order to televise their matches, and not the other way round?)

Peter


I don't know how it works over there, but over here, sports programing generates tons of ad revenue for the TV people, so it's well worth it for them to pay the leagues for the rights to televise the games.
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Heather

"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." -Susan B Anthony

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#323916 - 02/07/2009 16:32 Re: What is Comcast *really* doing to their customers? [Re: canuckInOR]
tman
carpal tunnel

Registered: 24/12/2001
Posts: 5528
Originally Posted By: canuckInOR
Originally Posted By: peter
if the entire film industry were wound up, then there wouldn't still be films.

Yes, there would be. Unless you meant "there wouldn't be $120-million dollar, craptacularly story-less, blockbuster VFX circle-jerks." Much like there is an indie music scene, there is also very much an indy film scene.

Does this count?

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#324673 - 27/07/2009 17:40 Re: What is Comcast *really* doing to their customers? [Re: tfabris]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31594
Loc: Seattle, WA
Update:

Comcast says their limit is 250 gigabytes per month, bidirectional, as we had already discussed.

What surprises me is that there's no way for a customer to monitor their household bandwidth usage. (I asked.) Clearly Comcast can track a given client's bandwidth usage (they have to in order to enforce the cap), but keep that information secret from the users until they bust the threshold. How terribly unfair.

I suppose could put a dedicated proxy computer between my network and the cable modem, and track usage that way. But I don't have the extra computer and don't want to do that anyway.

I like being able to stream instant Netflix on my Xbox or my Tivo. I wonder how many of those I could watch in a month before hitting 250gb.
_________________________
Tony Fabris

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#324674 - 27/07/2009 17:52 Re: What is Comcast *really* doing to their customers? [Re: tfabris]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
Here are some interesting numbers:

Assuming a 10Mbps link, you could theoretically download just over 3TB per month at full speed, 24 hours a day. That means that Comcast is limiting you to one-twelfth of what you assumed you could get.

You've gotta figure a Netflix download is probably about 2GB. A DVD would be about 4GB, the quality is somewhat lower, and the compression is probably a little better. (I would guess H.264 vs. a DVD's MPEG-2.) So give it some overhead and call it 100 movies. That's still more than three a day, so it's probably not a significant barrier, unless you have a digital hoarding complex.

Still, it sucks for them to change the rules on you.
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Bitt Faulk

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#324675 - 27/07/2009 17:59 Re: What is Comcast *really* doing to their customers? [Re: wfaulk]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31594
Loc: Seattle, WA
Yup, about 2-3gb per Netflix movie is confirmed from some searches I did.

So for my purposes (mostly video games and netflix streaming), 250gb per month is generous enough. As long as I don't host torrents, I should be OK.

And they didn't really change the rules on *me*, they started doing it before I signed up, so I went in knowing what the situation was. What I don't like is the inability to monitor the overall household usage unless I install a routing server in front of the cable modem.
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Tony Fabris

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#324678 - 27/07/2009 18:40 Re: What is Comcast *really* doing to their customers? [Re: wfaulk]
petteri
addict

Registered: 02/08/2004
Posts: 434
Loc: Helsinki, Finland
Originally Posted By: wfaulk
You've gotta figure a Netflix download is probably about 2GB. A DVD would be about 4GB, the quality is somewhat lower, and the compression is probably a little better. (I would guess H.264 vs. a DVD's MPEG-2.) So give it some overhead and call it 100 movies.


How much would a HD netflix rental set you back? What exactly happens when you hit the cap after the warning? They shut you down and you just get one last final bill?

What if I were to exceed "the cap" by using their "On Demand" system to watch HD (free movies and other free content) rentals over and over via the cable box they provide?

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#324679 - 27/07/2009 18:47 Re: What is Comcast *really* doing to their customers? [Re: tfabris]
canuckInOR
carpal tunnel

Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
Originally Posted By: tfabris
inability to monitor the overall household usage unless I install a routing server in front of the cable modem.

The cable modem doesn't have a small admin/configuration web portal that tells you this?

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