Unoffical empeg BBS

Quick Links: Empeg FAQ | Software | RioCar.Org | Hijack | jEmplode | emphatic
Repairs: Repairs | Addons: Eutronix | Cases

Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 >
Topic Options
#348691 - 01/11/2011 17:21 iPhone 4S camera
Dignan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 11875
Loc: Sterling, VA
This is not a thread to criticize Apple, so don't worry smile I'm actually posting this at the behest of my wife. She's a huge iPhone fan, but has been less than thrilled with the results of her photos taken with her 4S.

The main issue is that indoor shots are blurry and a little yellowed. Is anyone else seeing that? I realize that low light photos are still extremely difficult for the cameras on these phones, but I thought these latest iPhones and Android phones were supposed to be a little better, and she seems to be getting worse results. In particular, whenever I've used her 4S to take a photo, the autofocus seems to go crazy whether we're inside or outside.

Is anyone else having these issues?
_________________________
Matt

Top
#348695 - 01/11/2011 18:52 Re: iPhone 4S camera [Re: Dignan]
hybrid8
carpal tunnel

Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
Are you sure your wife didn't get an iPhone 4 instead? Crappy photos sounds like the iPhone 4's standard.
_________________________
Bruno
Twisted Melon : Fine Mac OS Software

Top
#348697 - 01/11/2011 19:45 Re: iPhone 4S camera [Re: hybrid8]
msaeger
carpal tunnel

Registered: 23/09/2000
Posts: 3608
Loc: Minnetonka, MN
How about a sample?
_________________________

Matt

Top
#348699 - 01/11/2011 20:43 Re: iPhone 4S camera [Re: msaeger]
drakino
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7858
Loc: Seattle, WA
A sample would be good, and if possible, an identical shot from some other camera.

With my personal experience, every shot off the 4S has been better then the 4, (and I'm nowhere near as critical as Bruno, the 4, for being a thin phone in your pocket wasn't bad).

My initial thought with the little information here is possibly a defective 4S. Might be worth going to an Apple store, or somewhere else with a 4S on display and do direct comparisons. A lens out of alignment could possibly causing it, especially if the autofocus is going crazy.
_________________________
Tom

Top
#348701 - 01/11/2011 21:17 Re: iPhone 4S camera [Re: drakino]
hybrid8
carpal tunnel

Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
The critical aspect comes because for the most part, if I'm out with my wife, we will also have a Canon Elph with us. If the intent is to take a photo that we'd like to do something with and keep, it makes a lot more sense to use the Canon, as it will always, without question, take a far better photo. And that's ignoring the fact that it's also higher resolution and faster to capture the frame.

If you have a point and shoot with you, it's always going to produce a better photo, I don't care who makes the camera. If you don't, then the iPhone 4 is better than nothing. And much better than most other phones. It also shoots very nice video - though it's hard as hell to keep the image stabilized.

I was super glad to hear that Apple was making the camera on the 4S a higher priority. I hope they continue with that mentality into the next iPhone and increase quality another order of magnitude.

_________________________
Bruno
Twisted Melon : Fine Mac OS Software

Top
#348717 - 02/11/2011 05:50 Re: iPhone 4S camera [Re: hybrid8]
Cris
pooh-bah

Registered: 06/02/2002
Posts: 1896
Loc: Leeds, UK
Originally Posted By: hybrid8
it makes a lot more sense to use the Canon, as it will always, without question, take a far better photo.


Sorry Bruno, what a crock of shit!

http://crismatthews.com/blog/2010/08/06/iphone-fashion-studio-shoot-for-videojunkie-co-uk/

Great pictures have nothing to do with the camera you are using.

The iPhone4/4s has very little shutter lag compared to most other compacts I've used.

I have to admit, at this point, I think I preferred the camera in the iPhone4. I find the 4s shots to lack a bit of sharpness and seem a little flat. I would also agree with the colour being off slightly , towards the warm side.

Cheers

Cris

Top
#348722 - 02/11/2011 11:33 Re: iPhone 4S camera [Re: Cris]
Dignan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 11875
Loc: Sterling, VA
Ah, the issue wasn't with focus, it's something else. There's like a haze to them. I've attached some examples from our Halloween party. Bonus: you can see how the Castle costumes I made worked out (not terrible for Halloween costumes):




Attachments
photo 1.JPG (369 downloads)
photo 2.JPG (366 downloads)
photo 4.JPG (358 downloads)

_________________________
Matt

Top
#348723 - 02/11/2011 11:50 Re: iPhone 4S camera [Re: Dignan]
andy
carpal tunnel

Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5677
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
Looks like they were taken with flash. Is it in a case ? Some cases can mess with the flash.

If not, I'd say you have a lemon.
_________________________
Remind me to change my signature to something more interesting someday

Top
#348724 - 02/11/2011 11:51 Re: iPhone 4S camera [Re: Cris]
andy
carpal tunnel

Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5677
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
Originally Posted By: Cris

The iPhone4/4s has very little shutter lag compared to most other compacts I've used.


And negative shutter lag when you pre focus, I'm not aware of any compact that does that...
_________________________
Remind me to change my signature to something more interesting someday

Top
#348725 - 02/11/2011 11:58 Re: iPhone 4S camera [Re: Cris]
hybrid8
carpal tunnel

Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
Originally Posted By: Cris

Sorry Bruno, what a crock of shit!


Hey Cris, it's your right to be completely wrong. Apparently Apple thought there was room for improvement too, but I suppose they also don't know what they're doing.

Quote:
Great pictures have nothing to do with the camera you are using.


Great composition and lighting setups have nothing to do with a camera. A good photographer can produce great photos with any camera. There'sno dispute there. I didn't say good photos could not be made with an iPhone (or any camera).

But if you're going to tell me (or anyone) for a second that you could not have taken those shots with any point and shoot, then I'm sorry, you're talking out your arse.

You may be working as a professional photographer, but plenty of people, myself included have many more years of technical experience when it comes to cameras, photos and digital process.

The images out of any one camera, in the same situation as any other camera, may not be suitable, or as suitable for a particular use. I'm sure you're not gong to replace your full-frame Canon with a phone.

Quote:
The iPhone4/4s has very little shutter lag compared to most other compacts I've used.


You must not have very much experience with a wide range of cameras. Try turning on the flash on the iPhone4 - which is a real-world, non-studio application that the general population will use.

The only way to decrease "shutter" lag in an iPhone 4 is to prime the on-screen button and then release to take the shot. The same thing can be done with a half-press on the shutter of most P&S, and many will shoot just as fast or faster. The reason the iPhone 4 has any speed at all is because it's not doing very much at the sensor level nor at the processor level while taking the shot.

Take the iPhone out some day, and do a shoot-off with a P&S in identical conditions. You can't compare studio shots to non-studio shots, so level the playing field. Small web-sized photos also look quite decent no matter the camera used. When blown up to full size, it's a different story completely - and yes, I looked at the full size iPhone sample. The lighting, and your talent, made the shot. Not the iPhone. A better result would have been had with a larger sensor and bigger glass on a P&S. You can't cheat physics.
_________________________
Bruno
Twisted Melon : Fine Mac OS Software

Top
#348726 - 02/11/2011 11:59 Re: iPhone 4S camera [Re: hybrid8]
hybrid8
carpal tunnel

Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
Matt, something is wrong with the camera on that iPhone4s. It could be the lens assembly, could even be the case, among other things. A quick trip to an Apple store and a few demo shots will probably net your wife and instant replacement.


Edited by hybrid8 (02/11/2011 12:11)
_________________________
Bruno
Twisted Melon : Fine Mac OS Software

Top
#348729 - 02/11/2011 13:16 Re: iPhone 4S camera [Re: Dignan]
mlord
carpal tunnel

Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 13528
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: Dignan
Ah, the issue wasn't with focus, it's something else. There's like a haze to them.

Yeah, hazy, like a smudge on the lens. Or perhaps the images were taken in very low light so the minuscule sensor is showing off its noise characteristics. I don't know anything about the effectiveness (or not) of the flash strobe on that device.

Top
#348730 - 02/11/2011 13:19 Re: iPhone 4S camera [Re: Cris]
mlord
carpal tunnel

Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 13528
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: Cris
Originally Posted By: hybrid8
it makes a lot more sense to use the Canon, as it will always, without question, take a far better photo.


Sorry Bruno, what a crock of shit!
..
Great pictures have nothing to do with the camera you are using


That's a standard party line from wannabee photographers, so I'm pretty amazed that Chris stooped to use it.

I don't see the vast majority of serious photographers, pro or amateur, running around doing their shoots with iPhones. The image quality and creative control simply isn't there. And contrary to the pretty party line statement, great photos do have a lot to do with the quality of the equipment.

Sure, I can manage a decent composition with any camera, but with two in my bag I'll always go for the one with the larger sensor and better creative controls. The results are simply better, and the ease of getting good photos is way better.

Cheers

Top
#348731 - 02/11/2011 13:27 Re: iPhone 4S camera [Re: Cris]
mlord
carpal tunnel

Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 13528
Loc: Canada

Looks like a fun time in the studio. Pity the "full size" iPhone image is out of focus, though -- or rather, it appears to be focussed on her midriff at the bottom of the frame. Lack of a tripod (mount), perhaps?

Cheers

Top
#348732 - 02/11/2011 14:12 Re: iPhone 4S camera [Re: mlord]
canuckInOR
carpal tunnel

Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3122
Loc: Portland, OR
Originally Posted By: mlord
Originally Posted By: Cris
Originally Posted By: hybrid8
it makes a lot more sense to use the Canon, as it will always, without question, take a far better photo.


Sorry Bruno, what a crock of shit!
..
Great pictures have nothing to do with the camera you are using


That's a standard party line from wannabee photographers, so I'm pretty amazed that Chris stooped to use it.

Especially since, in the linked article, he says:
Quote:
So, can we all see the difference when shooting with the “proper gear” ??? Of course we can, I’d be bloody upset if I couldn’t !!!

Which seems to neatly summarize Bruno's original point.

Top
#348738 - 02/11/2011 18:45 Re: iPhone 4S camera [Re: mlord]
Cris
pooh-bah

Registered: 06/02/2002
Posts: 1896
Loc: Leeds, UK
Originally Posted By: mlord

That's a standard party line from wannabee photographers, so I'm pretty amazed that Chris stooped to use it.


Ummm so by your logic then, as the technology advances the pictures that have been taken on lesser gear all of a sudden become rubbish ??? I don't think so. I know plenty of pro shooters who use much worse gear than I have and take better pictures, so explain that is my "better" camera is supposed to help me take "better" pictures.

It's not a standard party line at all, but a realisation that taking great pictures is much harder than buying the best kit and pressing buttons.

Originally Posted By: mlord
I don't see the vast majority of serious photographers, pro or amateur, running around doing their shoots with iPhones.


Well of course not, professional photography, especially the type I do, is all about giving yourself the best chance to capture an image you see in your head. The better gear helps this happen quicker and more frequently. But it's not to say that a low megapixel iPhone is not capable of capturing a special moment that someone can hold dear for a lifetime. Which has to be the essence of everyday photography right ???

Cheers

Cris

Top
#348739 - 02/11/2011 18:49 Re: iPhone 4S camera [Re: canuckInOR]
Cris
pooh-bah

Registered: 06/02/2002
Posts: 1896
Loc: Leeds, UK
Originally Posted By: canuckInOR

Which seems to neatly summarize Bruno's original point.


I think you are missing the point of the article. It proves you can take great pictures with a camera as limiting as the iPhone4, it's totally capable, but if you spend £10k on gear you are going to get a technically improved pictures, but not necessarily one that is "better".

You might be better off watching this video that originally inspired me to give it a go...

http://fstoppers.com/iphone

Lee has a much better way of explaining it to the general population than I clearly do.

Cheers

Cris

Top
#348742 - 02/11/2011 18:58 Re: iPhone 4S camera [Re: hybrid8]
Cris
pooh-bah

Registered: 06/02/2002
Posts: 1896
Loc: Leeds, UK
Originally Posted By: hybrid8

But if you're going to tell me (or anyone) for a second that you could not have taken those shots with any point and shoot, then I'm sorry, you're talking out your arse.


Well clearly I must be talking out of my arse then. Of course I haven't tried every compact camera on the market, but I've sure come across a few. I've not found one yet that does touch focus and has zero shutter lag.

Originally Posted By: hybrid8
You may be working as a professional photographer, but plenty of people, myself included have many more years of technical experience when it comes to cameras, photos and digital process.


You know what Bruno, you must be some kind of God, in order to know exactly how many years experience I have with cameras without every meeting me or having a single one to one chat. I don't even see the relevance of this point to the discussion. Are you trying to prove to yourself that your opinion matters more because you held a camera before I did ???

You dismiss the iPhone 4s in favour of a generic spec "compact camera". That is the problem I have with your argument. Of course there are going to be things one can do that the other can't. But that doesn't make it a bad camera. There are plenty of terrible terrible compacts on the market at the moment, the iPhone 4s is a noteworthy camera, and the fact it's built into a phone that you take everywhere is a major bonus. This is the way the market is going and we will slowly see the death of the compact camera all together. Why carry a compact when for most people a camera phone does just as well ???

Cheers

Cris

Top
#348744 - 02/11/2011 19:02 Re: iPhone 4S camera [Re: mlord]
Cris
pooh-bah

Registered: 06/02/2002
Posts: 1896
Loc: Leeds, UK
Originally Posted By: mlord
Pity the "full size" iPhone image is out of focus,


Seriously ???

That picture is not out of focus.

And if you want to see the setup I was using just watch the video.

Top
#348745 - 02/11/2011 19:45 Re: iPhone 4S camera [Re: Cris]
hybrid8
carpal tunnel

Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
Cris, I'm not going to argue this with you. Maybe if you didn't want a strong reaction you'd do best to not poke at people with sharp sticks. If you'd care, please take a look at the various camera web sites and sensor tests including those on DPreview.com. Perform the same tests with the iPhone4.

We're not talking about the quality of photographs based on the talents of the photographer, but simple the quality of the gear. The iPhone4 is a good camera phone and is a passable camera. But it is not, in any sense, a high quality camera.

Touch focus is a feature and not relevant to the quality of the image. Zero shutter lag is something the iPhone, any version, does not have. Even the 4S with supposedly much faster response, does not have zero shutter lag.

My iPhone4 is not better than the worst P&S I have ever used, given the exact same photographic (ie. lighting) conditions. I have used maybe 20 different P&S personally, and can compare what I've used to testing methods on various web sites having reviewed those cameras and others.

I use the camera on the iPhone frequently because *I* don't normally carry my D300 around. I'm not happy with the quality of the images and I do think the 4S improves on this - but it's still a camera phone with a tiny sensor and tiny lens. But as mentioned, my wife normally has the Canon P&S which, in all circumstances bests any camera phone.
_________________________
Bruno
Twisted Melon : Fine Mac OS Software

Top
#348747 - 02/11/2011 20:45 Re: iPhone 4S camera [Re: hybrid8]
Cris
pooh-bah

Registered: 06/02/2002
Posts: 1896
Loc: Leeds, UK
Ok, I'll try one very last time. In a very civil manor.

The size of the sensor, the specs of the electronics, or the opinion of some guy on a technical review site have nothing to do with making pictures.

Why do I say this?

It's quite simple. At it's heart a photograph is the record of a memory or a moment. That record triggers a memory or inspires a response, this is done not by the technical quality of the equipment but by the angle of view and atmosphere captured.

I do not dispute the technical aspects of any given camera or camera phone.

What I do dispute is the sweeping statement that in all circumstances a point and shoot out does an iPhone. That is simply not true. It may take a different picture, but that picture is not necessarily better.

What makes one picture better than another does not boil down to which had the bigger sensor or better lens. It's subjective. One persons view is different to another.

So I am not saying you are totally wrong. But I am saying making such sweeping statements is.

I just Googled "best iPhone pictures" and instantly found hundreds or creative and inspiring photos. Sometimes when working in a limited technical space it can push creativity way beyond what would be possible when given near unlimited technical ability.

Sometimes a piece of equipment is chosen because of it unique qualities. Today for example, we were shooting for a cover of an industrial magazine. We chose the 8Mp 1D Mk II. It was to hand and gave a certain quality to the image we wanted. The 5D MK II was just too clinical for our subject. On paper the sensor in the 5D MK II is better. But the photograph taken by the 1D MKII was "better" in our eyes. So does that mean I don't know what I am talking about because I am using an inferior piece of equipment.

The failing in your argument that greater technical advancements lead to improved images is the fact that every time a new development is made the pictures already taken somehow become less good. Some of the best images ever taken have been taken on technology that on paper may not be even as good as you point and shoot. Can you see my point there ???

Cheers

Cris

Top
#348748 - 02/11/2011 20:46 Re: iPhone 4S camera [Re: Dignan]
Cris
pooh-bah

Registered: 06/02/2002
Posts: 1896
Loc: Leeds, UK
Originally Posted By: Dignan
There's like a haze to them.


I'd agree with Andy, it's either the case or you got a lemon. My 4s doesn't suffer from this problem you are seeing.

Cheers

Cris

Top
#348751 - 02/11/2011 21:12 Re: iPhone 4S camera [Re: mlord]
andym
carpal tunnel

Registered: 17/01/2002
Posts: 3977
Loc: Manchester UK
Originally Posted By: mlord
That's a standard party line from wannabee photographers, so I'm pretty amazed that Chris stooped to use it.

Cobblers, I've met numerous professional photographers with varying degrees of critical and commercial success, and they've all said similar things. One of those people was Don Mcullin, someone who I have a great deal of respect for. The only ones that don't say that are the ones sponsored by the camera manufacturers. What was it they say? All the gear and no idea?
_________________________
Cheers,

Andy M

Top
#348752 - 02/11/2011 21:26 Re: iPhone 4S camera [Re: andym]
Cris
pooh-bah

Registered: 06/02/2002
Posts: 1896
Loc: Leeds, UK
Originally Posted By: andym
are the ones sponsored by the camera manufacturers


Now that is a good point!

I'll be the first one to say my 85mm f1.2 helps me take great pictures, but it doesn't do it for me. It still takes some real shockers smile

Cheers

Cris

Top
#348754 - 02/11/2011 21:37 Re: iPhone 4S camera [Re: Cris]
hybrid8
carpal tunnel

Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
I'll say one last thing on this topic, because I feel that my earlier statements captured my opinion precisely enough.

When I made those statements, they weren't from a perspective of judging the quality of a photo on an emotional nor artistic level.

Cris' photos, shot with an iPhone are very nice. I don't think anyone will dispute that. And the iPhone can certainly make some very nice pictures in many other circumstances.

This doesn't change my opinion of the iPhone's camera nor how I judged it against other camera-only devices. I'll continue to use the camera on my iPhone 4 and hope that Apple stays focused (no pun intended) on imager quality and features in upcoming iPhone models.

That out of the way, here are a few things that I'd love to see in a new design.

The camera lens moved to where the Apple logo is now on the iPhone 4 (instead of being at one corner). Two LEDs for flash, each farther away from the lens than the single one is now placed. If the volume button remains in the same position as it is currently, provide capacitive touch sensitivity on it, so that when using it with the camera app simply touching lightly it will focus and meter (on the already selected zone for example).

The above will make using the volume button for photos a lot more useful and practical. As software features, allow use of the LEDs as modeling lights which some 3rd party camera apps already have. Allow reducing the size of the meter/focus area.
_________________________
Bruno
Twisted Melon : Fine Mac OS Software

Top
#348755 - 02/11/2011 21:47 Re: iPhone 4S camera [Re: Cris]
tanstaafl.
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5292
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
Originally Posted By: Cris
You dismiss the iPhone 4s in favour of a generic spec "compact camera".
Cris, I think you are perhaps missing the point that Bruno is trying to make.

Take the photographer completely out of the equation. Set the 4s up on a tripod pointed towards something interesting that will reveal strengths and weaknesses of a camera. Do the same with a "generic spec compact camera" so they are side by side. Set the auto-timers for 10 seconds and stand back and let each camera do its thing.

Then, compare the two images for sharpness, contrast, color balance, saturation, noise, depth of field, etc.

I think you'll find that the dedicated camera-only device will outperform the iPhone. And why shouldn"t it? You've got a larger sensor for less noise. You have a much, much larger lens area for light gathering and correction of aberrations caused by trying to squeeze all the lens elements into a 1/8" (or less?) long light path. I think it is miraculous that a telephone can take a picture at all, and that it takes a quite acceptable one is mind boggling. But just as I don't expect my point and shoot camera to do an outstanding job of making phone calls, I don't expect a telephone to make outstanding photographs.

I don't doubt for a minute that you can take better pictures with your iPhone than I can take with my very expensive, very capable point and shoot camera. But, we're comparing cameras here, not photographers.

tanstaafl.
_________________________
"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"

Top
#348758 - 02/11/2011 22:17 Re: iPhone 4S camera [Re: tanstaafl.]
Cris
pooh-bah

Registered: 06/02/2002
Posts: 1896
Loc: Leeds, UK
Originally Posted By: tanstaafl.
But, we're comparing cameras here, not photographers.


Ok, one final, simple pont. A camera doesn't take a picture, a photographer does. The camera is just a tool, nothing more, nothing special. It's what one does with that tool that matters. The fact that someone else has a sharper tool doesn't make much difference.

Cheers

Cris.

Top
#348761 - 02/11/2011 22:37 Re: iPhone 4S camera [Re: Cris]
hybrid8
carpal tunnel

Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
That's the issue right there. We were having a discussion about tools (tool quality, let's say), not philosophy. Both are completely valid points for discussion, but I certainly didn't expect that my comments would be interpreted for the latter when they were most definitely aimed at the former.
_________________________
Bruno
Twisted Melon : Fine Mac OS Software

Top
#348765 - 02/11/2011 22:52 Re: iPhone 4S camera [Re: hybrid8]
msaeger
carpal tunnel

Registered: 23/09/2000
Posts: 3608
Loc: Minnetonka, MN
I am sure if you are more familiar with one camera vs another one it makes a difference too.
_________________________

Matt

Top
#348767 - 03/11/2011 00:01 Re: iPhone 4S camera [Re: andy]
DWallach
carpal tunnel

Registered: 30/04/2000
Posts: 3655
I'm going to ignore all the invective and focus on the photos posted. My own cameraphone really sucks, but this is a completely different world of bad that strongly suggests a manufacturing defect in your specific iPhone's camera.

To be sure, I'd like to see pictures taken in broad daylight, where there's no question that the iPhone camera should be able to take a perfectly fine photo. If it can't, then you know you need to swap cameras.

If the broad-daylight photo is good, then things get more complicated. It's possible, albeit unlikely, that the camera is fine but the LED flash is fubar. Either way, you clearly want to get the thing replaced.

Top
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 >