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#367196 - 08/07/2016 17:15 Re: Drobo HDDs: high failure rate? [Re: mlord]
Dignan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12338
Loc: Sterling, VA
Originally Posted By: K447
Is that 93 degrees C or F ?

How are you measuring the Fahrenheit temperatures?

Lol, that would be way too hot. No, it's F. Apologies for jumping back and forth between the two. The dashboard reports both, and as someone who doesn't usually use Celsius, it's hard for me to stick to those units.

Originally Posted By: mlord
Exactly.

Exactly? What does that mean? You say they don't keep the drives cool enough. I say my drives seem pretty cool, but your reaction is...exactly? Huh?

Quote:
what does the drive firmware (S.M.A.R.T.) show as the maximum (ever) recorded temperature for those drives? That's the number you should be most interested in. Drives sitting idle don't get nearly as hot as those under heavy load stress.

That's definitely fair. Why didn't you just say that?

I've found where Synology reports some SMART info, but it seems incomplete, I don't see the value for historical max temp, and I'm not sure how to read it if I could.

Also, I'd argue a little about taking max temp as the most important number here. That tells me that one time the temperature reached a certain level, but that's an incomplete story. I certainly want to avoid whatever that max temp is, but what if it only ever got that hot once and never approached it again? What if the AC went out in my house during the summer and I forgot to turn off my NAS?

*edit*

Oh my god, I've only spent 5 minutes reading up on how to interpret the SMART temperature values, and my head is going to explode. I would have thought that this would be a pretty simple thing, but I'm seeing about four different formulas to convert the "worst" value to an actual temperature, and none of them make sense...


Edited by Dignan (08/07/2016 17:25)
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#367199 - 08/07/2016 19:51 Re: Drobo HDDs: high failure rate? [Re: Taym]
mlord
carpal tunnel

Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14491
Loc: Canada
Yeah, every drive vendor seems to have variations on "the standard" for S.M.A.R.T. data. That's why the tools (eg. smartctl on Linux) have databases of known drives to help them interpret the values for us, so we don't have to.

I agree, a single "worst" value isn't as informative as we'd like, but there's no standard for providing more than just that one number from the drive. A nice historical graph would be much better, but no such thing unless the box's software monitors and logs the temperatures over time. Many do, though.

Cheers

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#367202 - 08/07/2016 21:05 Re: Drobo HDDs: high failure rate? [Re: Taym]
Taym
carpal tunnel

Registered: 18/06/2001
Posts: 2504
Loc: Roma, Italy
As to the Drobo, I am not sure you can read SMART data of a USB attached Drobo from your PC.
So, unless Drobo firmware reads and exposes SMART data it its gui - it doesn't -, there's no way to know.

I think.

Back to my failed 3TB drive: I could read it from my PC, but I only see 750GB, and it hangs repeatedly. I'd say this is indeed fa failed drive.


Edited by Taym (08/07/2016 21:06)
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#367205 - 09/07/2016 16:17 Re: Drobo HDDs: high failure rate? [Re: Taym]
Dignan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12338
Loc: Sterling, VA
Dang, sorry to hear that. Wouldn't the SMART data still be readable even if that drive is failing? Have you checked it out to see what the max temp was?
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#367207 - 09/07/2016 20:14 Re: Drobo HDDs: high failure rate? [Re: Taym]
Taym
carpal tunnel

Registered: 18/06/2001
Posts: 2504
Loc: Roma, Italy
Matt, actually I haven't. I'll do that, out of curiosity.
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= Taym =
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#367208 - 11/07/2016 00:13 Re: Drobo HDDs: high failure rate? [Re: Taym]
gbeer
carpal tunnel

Registered: 17/12/2000
Posts: 2665
Loc: Manteca, California
A question about drives that fail from prolonged heat...

Is it primarily the electronics that fail?
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#367209 - 12/07/2016 12:53 Re: Drobo HDDs: high failure rate? [Re: Taym]
mlord
carpal tunnel

Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14491
Loc: Canada
In my experience, it is the media that fails. Dunno if the coatings just become more fragile when HOT, or the platters expand beyond tolerance, or the lubricant escapes, or what.

The electronics on the whole still seem to function after cooling down on such drives, but with an accumulation of "media errors" (aka. "bad sectors").

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#367241 - 25/07/2016 13:29 Re: Drobo HDDs: high failure rate? [Re: tfabris]
tanstaafl.
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5546
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
Originally Posted By: tfabris
The design of the spacing of the bays isn't really optimal for a giant stack of modern high speed hard disks which put out a lot of heat.
Yeah... but there are workarounds for that. smile

tanstaafl.


Attachments
Computer Cooler.jpg


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#367247 - 26/07/2016 22:50 Re: Drobo HDDs: high failure rate? [Re: Taym]
Taym
carpal tunnel

Registered: 18/06/2001
Posts: 2504
Loc: Roma, Italy
laugh
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= Taym =
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#367781 - 25/10/2016 23:38 Re: Drobo HDDs: high failure rate? [Re: Taym]
Taym
carpal tunnel

Registered: 18/06/2001
Posts: 2504
Loc: Roma, Italy
... and one more failed drive in my Drobo. A WD Green, 4TB.
This is starting to get a bit unreal. I am checking the failed drives SMART status tomorrow in the office.

I am now thinking the Drobo is killing them (I would assume poor coolingt). So far the ones I checked were in face dead, so it seems Drobo is correct in that.

I am now keeping my Drobo without the front cover, in the hope cooling improves, IF that is the issue.


Edited by Taym (25/10/2016 23:45)
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#367782 - 26/10/2016 01:05 Re: Drobo HDDs: high failure rate? [Re: Taym]
Dignan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12338
Loc: Sterling, VA
That is crazy. I have to think that there's something unusual about your Drobo. I can't imagine that failure rate wouldn't go unnoticed by the company and other Drobo users.
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#367783 - 26/10/2016 09:15 Re: Drobo HDDs: high failure rate? [Re: Taym]
Taym
carpal tunnel

Registered: 18/06/2001
Posts: 2504
Loc: Roma, Italy
Matt, I agree.

However, apparently the "broken" HDD is in fact working. I did not manage to get the SMART data from it, as I've only had the time to test if from a USB dock that does not seem to expose those (tried with various HDD test tools), but I could see the drive, make it GPT, create volume, format it, save an read files from it.

Please, notice this is the first time this happened. Of the previous failed drives, two I did check and they had actually failed, others I did not check and simply relied on Drobo telling me they were bad, and then this one.

No obvious pattern to me...
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= Taym =
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#367784 - 26/10/2016 12:28 Re: Drobo HDDs: high failure rate? [Re: Taym]
mlord
carpal tunnel

Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14491
Loc: Canada
Need to look at the SMART data to see what the drive thinks about it all.

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#367785 - 26/10/2016 22:38 Re: Drobo HDDs: high failure rate? [Re: Taym]
K447
old hand

Registered: 29/05/2002
Posts: 798
Loc: near Toronto, Ontario, Canada
What about hardware problems in the Drobo electronics? Flakey power supply, crazy controller, intermittent connectors/cables.

Vibration from the supporting shelf or a nearby cooling fan.

Heat is not the only way to hurt a hard drive.

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#367789 - 30/10/2016 12:32 Re: Drobo HDDs: high failure rate? [Re: Taym]
Taym
carpal tunnel

Registered: 18/06/2001
Posts: 2504
Loc: Roma, Italy
I tried to get the SMART data, but could not via 3 different USB-SATA adapters, and one eSATA. As soon as I have a minute I am opening one of my PCs case and get it.

K447, thanks for hinting at all other possibile causes. Let's see
- Drobo electronics: no way for me to easily find out. I've been planning to replace the fan with some quieter one for a while, so I will eventually have to open the Drobo. I'll inspect it for anything suspicious.

- Drobo does vibrate itself at times. Apparently, many do, and by pushing the HDD firmly in (as recommended by Drobo themselves) it does help: vibration noise drops. Drobo is sitting on a Desk with my home PC, which is mostly off. it is connected to my home server, on a desk nearby, which is on 24H, but vibration from it do not reach where the Drobo is.

- a 650 VA APC UPS with a battery still in good shape is protecting both the drobo and the server.


Edited by Taym (30/10/2016 12:35)
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#367790 - 30/10/2016 13:23 Re: Drobo HDDs: high failure rate? [Re: Taym]
K447
old hand

Registered: 29/05/2002
Posts: 798
Loc: near Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Intermittent and long cycle time failures can be difficult to diagnose, often impossible to be certain of the cause(s).

You may want to consider replacing this Drobo unit with a different unit or a different model. Retire or sell this one, as you deem appropriate.

The ongoing downside risks with the current Drobo in terms of your time and potential data loss probably outweighs the money value of the Drobo unit, not to mention the cost of replacing hard drives multiple times.

Sometimes it is best to just move on, leave the troublesome unit in the past.


Edited by K447 (30/10/2016 15:11)

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#367791 - 30/10/2016 13:32 Re: Drobo HDDs: high failure rate? [Re: Taym]
Taym
carpal tunnel

Registered: 18/06/2001
Posts: 2504
Loc: Roma, Italy
This unit is devoted entirely to local backup sessions, so risk of data loss *EVEN* in worst case scenario nearly none. Otherwise, I would have moved to a Synology already, because I essentially agree with u AND Synology units are so much nicer in terms of build quality and features...
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= Taym =
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#367792 - 30/10/2016 23:16 Re: Drobo HDDs: high failure rate? [Re: Taym]
Dignan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12338
Loc: Sterling, VA
What were you using to get the SMART data? Have you tried Speccy?


Edited by Dignan (30/10/2016 23:17)
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#367793 - 01/11/2016 13:12 Re: Drobo HDDs: high failure rate? [Re: Taym]
Taym
carpal tunnel

Registered: 18/06/2001
Posts: 2504
Loc: Roma, Italy
Yes, i tried Speccy too. Apparently, SMART data is not going through the SATA->USB adapters I am using (all built into three different HDD Docks I normally use at home and in the office). I realize there are some USB adapters+drivers that can pull SMART data from HDDs (or, so I read); apparently not mine.

Not a big problem, I just need to find few minutes to open up a PC case.

I also used: Crystal Disk Info and HDD Scan.


Edited by Taym (01/11/2016 13:13)
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= Taym =
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#367794 - 01/11/2016 18:05 Re: Drobo HDDs: high failure rate? [Re: Taym]
Dignan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12338
Loc: Sterling, VA
Ah sure. Those SATA>USB adapters can be extremely annoying. I've had really bad problems with a couple of the USB3 variety and I'm not sure why. I've used a couple that have prevented me from migrating to a SSD using Samsung's software. For some reason, the software claims there's no drive connected at all. Then I'll swap out for a USB2 adapter I have and it all works fine. I recently ordered an Anker USB3 adapter, though, so I'll see if that one works better.

I'm very curious to hear what the SMART results are.
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