Paul Grzelak and I will be taking on the installation of an Empeg, some new speakers and an amp in my 2001 Honda Odyssey on Friday around 10am EST and, if necessary, on Saturday as well. (Pix will be taken, natch.)

If you live in the central New Jersey area or thereabouts and, better yet, if you have performed one of these installs yourself, you are cordially invited to stop by (and if you are capable enough to lend a hand I certainly won't refuse the offer).

Send a private msg if you're interested. Thanks!

An update: Sputteringly huge thanks go out to kazama for walking through (over the phone no less, for well over an hour) his installation steps, enduring my prepared list of twenty questions, patiently working through my "lack of mental leap" regarding the speakers (and crossovers in particular - in the end the lightbulb finally went off), and just all manner of support. Well above and beyond - bravo!

I've arranged everything out on the dining room table (it's OK, I put a protective covering over it) and I now have a list of additional things to purchase, reality-check questions to be answered (WRT some of the products purchased), and we've got an attack plan.

I'll be documenting this very carefully as I go. As of now, we're a go for Friday morning.

As a follow up to our wiring discussion from last night, make sure to read the FAQ on common install questions at
http://www.riocar.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=FAQ&file=index&myfaq=yes&id_cat=3&categories=Car+installation+questions . There are excellent graphics there on how the wiring connector should go just in case. Good luck with the install!!!!

Greg

Anyone doing anything with car audio should take a look at the following site for the basics:
http://www.eatel.net/~amptech/elecdisc/caraudio.htm

It still amazes me how many people refuse basic knowledge. Everyone I've recommended this site to has loved it though.

Bruno

Thanks! Both excellent resources. I promise I'll read 'em both and keep it in mind as I install. Common sense is a good thing.

Also, the last thing we want here is a fried newbie.

I spent time last night writing up the install step by step, cross-checking the parts, walking through it a few times (gee, can you TELL I'm an engineering major?) ...

Whew! We pulled it off. 95% there.

Day one (Friday) basically turned into "get the power cable routed." Yes, it was that tricky. We're talking maybe a 2" clearance for two of my fingers (under the dash) just to reach the one decent space to get a 4 gauge cable through safely w/o punching a new hole. I took some pix so we'll have those to share soon. Let's just say it involved some creativity with a utility knife, a coat hanger, two sets of hands and some strategically-wrapped duct tape. (It's OK, only the cable remains and you can't even see that.)

Day two (Saturday) was "almost everything else." That is, everything up to getting the lower part of the dash reattached, the amp secured, the captain's chair back in place, and the overall system tuned. That will happen Sunday morning.

For now we know the faders and balance behave w/no trace of cancellation, the player and tuner work (umm ... exactly how do I step through the frequencies instead of scan? I'll read the friendly manual again), all the dash controls behave, drawers behave (after several attempts to carefully place and store the wires inside), it just plain behaves. "This is a good thing."

Now if I can just find a decent-looking blank faceplate for the open space where the unit normally goes. :-)

I may also want to wedge something under the docking sled too, so that it stays level with respect to the plastic install kit.

Three additional things I did that weren't in my final set of step-by-step notes: I connected the illumination lead to the "lights on" of the unit. Now I automagically get two different dimmer settings whether or not my lights are on. (Magnifique!) I ran a pair of RCAs to the AUX and routed it down below (we'll get a double-female adapter for 'em too), so if we ever absolutely need to connect something else, we've got that. I also routed the microphone input into the blank space to the left of the head unit area, and fastened it down inside. If the time ever comes ... I pop that blank piece of plastic off and fashion a microphone out of it. :-)

For the most part, the recurring issue was sunlight. We got to work around noon and finished around 8pm EST, but we only get five hours of working light. Working in the garage wasn't going to happen (for other various reasons) ... however, I did have a halogen work lamp so that came in handy, as did the lights in the driveway to some extent ... and a few MagLites don't hurt.

I also became acquainted with a few crimping and cutting tools I didn't previously have in my arsenal. That definitely helped with the bullet connectors and getting the power/ground crimped nicely.

Yet to do for another time: the crossovers and the tweeters. Alas, we didn't get those hooked up. Paul was able to get at the tweeters up in the dash, but we were never able to locate the split between it and the mid in the side door, not by sight, not by wiring color. (Any clues? Honda sure isn't telling.)

My hope was that I'd find the split in the door, and just mount the crossover within the door (making sure it was clear of the window mechanism), then I'd be all set. Another challenge for another time.

I suppose there are a few options ranging from drilling holes for the tweeters in the doors (ugh) and the back row (ugh again), and disconnecting those in the dash. Then again I'm sort of going for a very stealth setup (partly at the request of my darling wife who has co-blessed this whole pet project ... can't say I disagree with her).

More to come ...

Yet to do for another time: the crossovers and the tweeters. Alas, we didn't get those hooked up. Paul was able to get at the tweeters up in the dash, but we were never able to locate the split between it and the mid in the side door, not by sight, not by wiring color. (Any clues? Honda sure isn't telling.)

I know that on my Integra and a number of other factory equipped Hondas, the crossovers are right at the tweater mounting location.

Do you currently have factory tweaters and mids? Adding new parts for both or just one? Using stock wiring?

I didn't get enough info from your first message to give you any better answers. If you're adding aftermarket tweets and mids, then you should be running new wire. And if you're doing those things, you can locate the aftermarket crossover anywhere inside the door. You're removing the door panels to do all of this, right?

Bruno

I know that on my Integra and a number of other factory equipped Hondas, the crossovers are right at the tweater mounting location.

Ahh! Another Integra owner. Yup, on my Integra, the tweeters are RIGHT IN THE DOOR, so that's great.

Figures I had to pick the minivan, right?

I currently have factory tweeters still installed up on top of the dash. I can get at them if I want, but:

• I don't know where the wire runs meet up with the mids' wiring.


• There's a capacitor in series with the tweeter (makes sense), but no formal crossover box per se, like I got with my speakers.


• I'd be OK with running new wiring to get the tweeter routed to the door (where I'd then put the new crossover) if I could figure out just how to do that.


• I'm certainly concerned WRT the factory tweeters still being there in terms of tuning the system, since the rating is different (read: probably lower). What else can I do though short-term? Disconnect the tweeters?

If you're adding aftermarket tweets and mids, then you should be running new wire.

I confess I didn't do exactly that ... yet. True, I ran new wire, but they aren't home runs to each speaker. Instead, they're home runs to the wiring harness (which, in turn, find their way to the speakers). Probably doesn't count as running new wire, but it worked as a first step.

If/when I do home runs to the speakers, yup, the door panels come off, and I suppose the top dash - somehow, not sure how that's done. Also unsure if the stock Chilton manuals have the necessary clues on that. (Greg provided me with even better info on getting the front center dash off, f'rinstance).

More clues welcome. I really want to do a proper job but, if it has to be in stages, I'm willing to pace it out a bit. I've already learned plenty more than I bargained for in terms of the way these cars are put together. (The amount of design that goes into all these components and placement must be incredible.)

Figured out how to increment/decrement on the tuner. Only on the remote - that makes sense now.

Let's just say it involved some creativity with a utility knife, a coat hanger, two sets of hands and some strategically-wrapped duct tape.

Ever see Pinky and The Brain? "Pinky, are you thinking what I'm thinking?" "I think so, Brain, but where are we going to get a utility knife, a coat hanger, and duct tape at this time of night?"

umm ... exactly how do I step through the frequencies instead of scan? I'll read the friendly manual again

Button Guide

Now if I can just find a decent-looking blank faceplate for the open space where the unit normally goes. :-)

Part number 37 on this page is what I used to cover the DIN hole in my Honda. Looks fantastic, as if there were no stereo installed at all.

Note that it will take a tiny bit of trimming with an X-acto knife. You need to slightly modify the plastic tabs which snap it into place. On mine, it took some very tiny modifications but now it snaps perfectly into place in the sled.

I may also want to wedge something under the docking sled too, so that it stays level with respect to the plastic install kit.

I used a metal bracket, one of those metal straps with the holes in it, and attached it to the screw hole in the rear center of the sled. This is in addition to drilling holes in the sides of the sled so I could screw it directly to the stereo mounting frame. Mounting the sled solidly is pretty important, jerry-rigging it will only give you grief in the long run.

Yes! Pinky! Wow, didn't think of that one.

Button Guide - check, works fine, though when I search every so often the system stops responding for a bit and suddenly reboots (or does what appears to be a reboot). Probably a known issue.

Thanks for the tip WRT that part #. I'll check it out.

A metal bracket, eh? I was going to go get a piece of foam BUT .. yes, a bracket would be a good thing. I know where to attach it in the sled, natch, but where does the other end attach to? I don't see anywhere in there that it can go.

Paul suggested we drill holes for the mounting frame. I was wary 'cause I didn't see how they'd fit and let the unit slide in smoothly. Perhaps I just need really small screws, or use the ones that are on the factory unit and mounting frame?

That's another thing. I'm not even using that mounting frame. I'm using a plastic frame. But yeah - I'd love to use the original mounting frame if at all possible. Then I can put the original pocket back underneath it instead of the one that's part of this new plastic frame.

Good thing this car has MacPherson struts up front, but still ...

Another gotcha, as of this morning, no AM stations. But I know we had 'em last night. Just not today. FM is fine, but I somehow recall FM not really needing an antenna the way AM does (though an antenna in any case is obviously a good thing). I get faint reception in AM, but perhaps only one frequency out of the whole available spectrum.

Wow, a lot of new stuff to learn. Bring it on.

I know where to attach it in the sled, natch, but where does the other end attach to? I don't see anywhere in there that it can go.

Heh, answer below...

I was wary 'cause I didn't see how they'd fit and let the unit slide in smoothly. Perhaps I just need really small screws, or use the ones that are on the factory unit and mounting frame?

No you just need the screws to go from the inside-out, and they need low-clearance heads. See blurry pic of my Mk1 install (Mk2 was done similar) here.

But yeah - I'd love to use the original mounting frame if at all possible. Then I can put the original pocket back underneath it instead of the one that's part of this new plastic frame.

Which is where I connected the metal strap. Drilled a hole in the back of the pocket and bolted it to there.

I only did it because on my Mk2 I only drilled two holes on the sides of the sled. The Mk1 install (pictured above) did not require this stunt because I had drilled four holes on the sides of the sled and it was therefore rock-stable without a back strap. When I went to install the Mk2, I used different screws (the ones I had used on the Mk1 install had gotten stripped) and only had one pair of them, so I had to improvise.


Another gotcha, as of this morning, no AM stations. But I know we had 'em last night. Just not today. FM is fine, but I somehow recall FM not really needing an antenna the way AM does (though an antenna in any case is obviously a good thing). I get faint reception in AM, but not with much.

There is a known bug with the antenna amplifier line in 2.0b3, where it doesn't always activate the antenna amplifier. Assuming you've got everything wired correctly, it could be that. Also check the troubleshooting section of the FAQ and read up on all the tuner issues.

Low-clearance. Thanks. I'm definitely looking into redoing it with those. I'll also check out a bracket, though I'd think with the factory mounting frame and two screws on either side, it would be fairly strong? (Hmm, perhaps I shouldn't press my luck!)

I was a good newbie and read the entire FAQ before getting started but, yeah, I forgot what I read specifically about the tuner. I just recall AM sounding perfectly fine yesterday (as does Paul) so I have a feeling something wasn't fully connected and it slipped out.

Now, if Greg had to connect to the blue wire on the tuner module for his Odyssey, then I'm sure I have to do that as well (but his notes don't mention him doing that ...). We'll go into the dash again and have a look around. Having just taken the car for a spin, I can see the FM reception isn't all that hot either so - yeah - more suspicious evidence.

OK, I took a look at the head unit connections (it's still opened as I type this) and - whaddaya know - everything's still connected. The tuner module's red light is on, the antenna is plugged in snugly, everything looks good. About the only thing I didn't connect is the "Power Antenna" lead (I don't have a power antenna - that is, the motorized kind). The Antenna Remote, it turns out, is connected as well - presumably that's how the red light is kicking in (otherwise it would be hooked up slightly differently and the amp remote would be doing this, right?).

Not sure what else I can possibly plug in here!

So what else ... according to the FAQ I should check my tuner extension to make sure it's wired straight through (1-to-1, 2-to-2, etc.). If it's miswired I can fix it myself, get a new one or do away with the extension altogether. (I suppose using the amp remote is fine? Any good reasons why I wouldn't want to do that?)

Q: Are the antenna remote and antenna signal amp wires in the FAQ referring to the same thing? I believe it is (and it's hooked up).

At any rate, this will definitely be a priority to fix, as we definitely use the radio. Insert fun here ...

though I'd think with the factory mounting frame and two screws on either side, it would be fairly strong?

Yes. My Mk1 was two screws on either side and I didn't need a rear bracket.

My Mk2 is one screw on either side and I needed the rear bracket to keep it level.

About the only thing I didn't connect is the "Power Antenna" lead (I don't have a power antenna - that is, the motorized kind).

This is probably the reason you're getting bad reception. Many cars require power to an antenna amplifier. The power antenna lead is designed for this purpose. It also can control a power antenna which is motorized.

You can also use the blue amplifier remote wire from the main sled to power either of those things.

It is important for you to know which wire is the one on your vehicle which powers the antenna amplifier. You might have to do some research to find this wire.

I believe it is (and it's hooked up).

Hooked up TO WHAT?

OK. Let's see if I understand:

I don't know which wire (coming from the car) powers the antenna amp (if indeed there is one ... that and I didn't even SEE a free wire hanging around ). So, plan B: I should split the blue amp remote to TWO locations - the amp where it's going now, and also the power antenna lead coming out of the extension.

Is that right? That's OK to do? Do I have it backwards? (I know, dumb question perhaps, but I want to be sure. Bear with me here.)

To clarify the "hooked up to what" issue - sorry 'bout that. I meant to say the blue "antenna remote" wire coming from the wiring harness is connected to the blue "antenna remote" wire on the empeg side (basically what Greg did with his Odyssey setup).

Wow, this is probably REALLY WRONG - I have corrected this in a post further below. DO NOT FOLLOW THIS (or anything in this thread) as installation advice. I'm learning here ... there, you've been warned.

BUT WAIT! I decided to remove the extension between the Rio and the tuner module, as well as the antenna lead. Then I connected 'em back and saw a li'l battery icon on the display. Lo and behold, I HAD AM!

Now I really really really don't think anything was different, but it's obviously different. At this point, if I leave it alone and it happens again, I'm VERY suspicious of this:

There is a known bug with the antenna amplifier line in 2.0b3, where it doesn't always activate the antenna amplifier.

I meant to say the blue "antenna remote" wire coming from the wiring harness is connected to the blue "antenna remote" wire on the empeg side

The blue wire from the sled and the blue wire from the tuner should NOT be connected to each other! They're both outputs, the one on the sled a traditional turn-on the amps thing and the one from the tuner is to power an antenna amplifier that many newer cars have (or by all means, a motorized antenna).
Depending on how your car is wired you may or may not need an adapter the get the power to the antenna amp - for instance in VWs and Audis you need one.

Be happy you didn't let the smoke out of something...

/Michael

The blue wire from the sled and the blue wire from the tuner should NOT be connected to each other!

Scout's honor, no smoke, no funny smells, no nothing, and I was driving it around for quite a while! We really did work carefully to do the measure twice, cut once thing here. I really should be able to explain this properly, so let's see if I can redeem myself here:

The blue wire from the tuner that comes out the tuner extension closest to the tuner module - the one shipped with some shrunken black tubing on it ... THAT isn't hooked up to anything right now, and that's the as-yet unused power antenna lead. Meanwhile, the blue wire from the connector that goes to the sled is, indeed, connected to the Amp and is the amp remote.

There. That's the way I have it. (Did I win? )

I probably mentioned the wiring harness before and shouldn't have. Doesn't enter into it. I appreciate you speaking up in any event - this definitely isn't a toy (well ...). Amazingly, after all this, the AM radio is working just fine, good signal and everything. Ever since I removed, examined, and reattached that extension and antenna running to the tuner ...

The thing is, I looked at it while it was all CONNECTED and it looked great, solid, clicked in and everything. I kind of wish it was something more obvious that I could've pointed to and said "yeah, THAT was it" but no such thing.

I haven't put it all back together in the dash yet. I want to see if the issue manifests itself again. I'm also going to be very VERY careful about how I stow the cables inside that space. Not that I wasn't careful before, but I wonder if something got caught and it jiggled just enough to cause some grief with the wires that was not necessarily visible.

I'm still enthusiastic about this despite all the hiccups and reality checks, so let's see how things shape up tomorrow.

Continued thanks to everyone for their support. A fine group it is.

Now, if Greg had to connect to the blue wire on the tuner module for his Odyssey, then I'm sure I have to do that as well (but his notes don't mention him doing that ...).

You do NOT have to connect the Power Attn wire on the tuner module to anything in the Ody (Oh, Hi back from VT. got lots of baby gifts)

The blue cable comming out of the tunner connection is if you have a power anttena like the Lexus or Mercedes does. You know, the kind of anttena that goes up and down. That cable tells the anttena to raise or lower. Since the Ody has a fixed antenna, you just cap it off and go on your merry way.

BTW, f you are still have problems with reception, Declain and I have found that position of the tuner module in the car means everything when it comes to getting good reception. For my Ody, I up the module on the right hand side of the pull out tray between the mount and the dask. That way there is a minimum amout of things between the tuner and the outside. The tuner extension would give you more options for placement but I couldn't find any better than there.

Greg

You do NOT have to connect the Power Attn wire on the tuner module to anything in the Ody

Right - I was wayyy off on that. That Power Antenna wire isn't connected to squat right now. All's well and nothing has been smoked to a crisp.

(Oh, Hi back from VT. got lots of baby gifts)

Oh really now ... congrats are in order then? Yay!

... position of the tuner module in the car means everything when it comes to getting good reception.

Apparently. Right now the tuner is NOT where I put it at first (which was above the pull out tray). I think that's probably a lousy place for it in any event. That and you managed to get it on the right side of the pull out tray. Speaking of which, BTW, I wasn't able to do that, even with the extension, but I'm going to try again, VERY GENTLY.

Ever see Pinky and The Brain? "Pinky, are you thinking what I'm thinking?" "I think so, Brain, but where are we going to get a utility knife, a coat hanger, and duct tape at this time of night?"

*NARF*

Indeed! Frighteningly similar in many respects.

At this point, the current plan is to go with the low clearence screw idea. With the factory brackets and pocket. If all goes well, things should be completed today. At least for this round...

I am still wondering if we can get coax's in at the rear. When installing the speakers, there looked like there was enough clearance for a small coax. That would make it a lot easier than going for components (and finding a spot to locate them) back there.

As to the front, component tweeters in dash would be better. That is a mission for a later date, though.

I am still wondering if we can get coax's in at the rear.

I can check. But then ... if we can pull it off, I'd like the components back there, so we have a nice matched set. I'm sure we'll figure out some creative way to mount 'em in there. Besides, wouldn't I want a consistent set of speakers all around?

Right now the tuner is NOT where I put it at first (which was above the pull out tray). I think that's probably a lousy place for it in any event. That and you managed to get it on the right side of the pull out tray. Speaking of which, BTW, I wasn't able to do that, even with the extension, but I'm going to try again, VERY GENTLY.


I think your radio sits much higher than mine does because you don't have the navi. The tuner for me slipped into the side with out the extension because I couldn't put it below the cage. Just not enough clearance. Try putting the tuner in a couple of places. Otherwise, I was thinking about swapping out the Honda antenna or a powered fixed antenna and see if the boost would help the reception.

Greg

I think your radio sits much higher than mine does because you don't have the navi.

Definitely higher than on the navi version. It's one of those "just fits" scenarios. We'll just have to get a bit more creative, 'tis all.

Just a thought, could you drill a hole in the back of the tray below the empeg, then run the connection for the radio and antenna through that hole and sit the tuner in the tray? That way there would definately not be anything blocking the signal to get to the unit. Only down side is a tuner in the tray and a partially exposed install which defeats your whole "stealth" concept.

But the all important question, does the Sig Other like the Empeg?

Greg

Exactly. "Tuner in tray violates stealth rule."

That and my wife uses that tray.

She likes the concept. She doesn't care for the faceplate design, from what I can tell. I did show her the radio (which she'll probably use more initially), and Paul gave me an idea to take all ber Beatles CDs and make a random playlist for her out of that ... that oughta help.

Meanwhile, I got the low-clearance (read - flat) screws (1/4" and #10 to be safe) to try and attach this to the original bracket from the car.

The gotcha? The original pocket attaches to the ORIGINAL headunit! So I'd have to cut two slits in the empeg tray as well.

Not only that, but the bracket is really two pieces, one on each side. So instead of fitting the bracket over the empeg and measuring where the holes will go, I may need to duct tape it together temporarily, fit it in the space, and figure it out that way. But even then, w/o having the dash back in place, I have no way of knowing if it will be flush when I put the dash back. I guess I can try and measure the bracket with the existing headunit attached and see if I can map it over to the sled somehow.

Fun ... well, not really. But let's see ...

She doesn't care for the faceplate design, from what I can tell.

There have been some discussions on this. The faceplate doesn't look like the glitzy billions-of-buttons designs found on other aftermarket stereos. Some see this as a disadvantage.

However, once you get the thing installed in the car and actually LOOK at the way it integrates into the dash, you realize that it actually fits the style of the car better than any of the other gaudy aftermarket designs. In my Honda, it looks perfectly at home in the dash.

I think the issue is it's an initial reaction. Example: There is no printing on the buttons. Well, yeah, and you're driving a vehicle - keep your eyes on the road.

After a while, I think we'll get another convert. Heh-heh ...

Hey, she's supported it thus far, can't complain.

(Pardon the length - here goes.)

The good news is everything's back and the car can be driven once again.

Now for the gotcha. Yes, I have AM radio. However, the reception, upon closer scrutiny (e.g., while driving) is spotty at best. Turns out FM actually isn't that much better.

Various experiments with placing the tuner unit didn't really change the situation all that much (perhaps very slightly but not by any order of magnitude). I tried with the engine on and off to see if engine noise exacerbated the situation. On AM I got this tone that disappeared once the car was "warmed up" - I was getting this slow sine wave up/down noise over the audio (hmm, excuse the rough description there).

Next, I went driving over hills, on the open highway, into downtown, all while changing the AM/FM presets of stations I had no trouble getting with the factory unit. Fairly consistent results, but not nearly as good as with the factory unit. The NJ stations are rather strong, but not 100%. The New York stations I normally get loud and clear are coming in rather weak now (20% on the signal strength meter - or is that logarithmic?) ... plus it depends where I drive, where I stop.

... and Greg didn't use that power antenna lead. Puzzling.

Tony, can you please re-explain again your suggestion WRT using that power antenna lead? Know that I have no free wire in the dash to hook this up to though - that and, for all I know, there is no such wire in the car to begin with. Also, I realize this is an output, not an input, so I won't hook up the amp remote to it, I promise.

Greg, you also suggested changing out the antenna. (But if it worked before ... ?)

Bottom line: I've got to figure this one out if I'm going to win over you-know-who (she uses the radio A LOT) so any and all troubleshooting suggestions are eagerly requested. Again, I've tried placing that tuner all over the inside of that dash. Not much difference no matter what I do with it.

A few bits of good news this go-round though. I found the exact same spot Greg was talking about WRT placing the tuner module, on the side next to the tray. Didn't find that the first time!

Not only does it fit nicely and out of the way, but it doesn't move. It's like that spot was made for it. It's nestled in the plastic molding on the side, and testing the upper and lower trays with reckless abandon showed absolutely no problems. (Another reason I wish I didn't have to take this apart again. Hey, welcome to the bleeding edge!)

Another thing I did - instead of using a bracket, I got some thick double-sided tape and some rigid foam insulation for copper pipe. I cut about 4" of one insulation tube, then cut that remaining piece down the center. Took both of those pieces, stuck the double-sided tape on the inside, then placed them between the plastic pocket and the bottom of the sled on either side, still leaving that open air pocket there, and also leaving clearance for the bendable tabs should I ever need to remove it from this plastic install kit. I took pix so that's forthcoming. The end result is a nice cushion that keeps the sled level.