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#63382 - 26/01/2002 20:59 Re: eBay LOSERS [Re: jnmunsey]
Fogduck
member

Registered: 06/06/2000
Posts: 199
Loc: BC
I am not ashamed of downloading mp3s off the net. In fact, I am quite proud of my new mechanism for discovering new artists RISK FREE. If I like their work, I'll pay for it. For two reasons:

The punks out there ripping the stuff and putting it on the net often don't know what they are doing and/or are sloppy with the tags. When I buy the disc, I'll do a proper job of archiving it.

Also, I do like to think I am supporting the artists, despite a very small fraction of my money going to support them, and a large part of my money going towards preventing what I am doing in the first place.

My conscience is clear. I used to record from FM all the time and make mixed tapes which lead to me buying the work of the artists. mp3s are no different, just less lossy and no irritating commercials or cross-fades to edit out.
_________________________
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#63383 - 26/01/2002 22:43 Re: eBay LOSERS [Re: Fogduck]
Anonymous
Unregistered


If it is illegal, who's gonna stop me?

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#63384 - 26/01/2002 23:05 Re: eBay LOSERS [Re: ]
hybrid8
carpal tunnel

Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
And now I remember one very cool feature of most any NNTP client...

What kind of car are you going to ask your parents to buy you when you're old enough to get a licence?

Bruno
_________________________
Bruno
Twisted Melon : Fine Mac OS Software

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#63385 - 27/01/2002 01:08 Re: eBay LOSERS [Re: hybrid8]
tracerbullet
addict

Registered: 08/01/2002
Posts: 419
Loc: Minnesota
I'm curious, where are these laws? I'm sure they exist, but where would I find them? I'm up to the J's now ripping my collection to my RioCar, and I see on Jesus Jones "Warning: Unauthorized duplication is a violation of applicable laws". What laws?

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#63386 - 27/01/2002 01:51 Re: eBay LOSERS [Re: tracerbullet]
ninti
old hand

Registered: 28/12/2001
Posts: 868
Loc: Los Angeles
> I'm curious, where are these laws?

A copyright is given to any author of an artistic production, as governed by the Copyright Act of 1976 as amended (17 U.S.C. Sections 101 et seq.). The copyright lasts for the life of the author plus 50 years. Those who infinge copyrights may be liable for damage or criminal penalties.

Hope that answers your question.

Edit: Sorry, it's 70 years after the death of the author, not 50.


Edited by ninti (27/01/2002 04:11)
_________________________
Ninti - MK IIa 60GB Smoke, 30GB, 10GB

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#63387 - 27/01/2002 02:42 Re: eBay LOSERS [Re: ]
bonzi
pooh-bah

Registered: 13/09/1999
Posts: 2401
Loc: Croatia
RIAA, who wants exemption from anti-terrorist laws so it could hack into people's computers to see whether they contain MP3s, and then do whatever thay want, including destroying them, with impunity?

We were discussing a lot here both legality and morality of various aspects of MP3 use. 'Who is gonna catch me' is not part of either. Does that criterion apply to other aspects of your everyday behaviour, too?
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Dragi "Bonzi" Raos Q#5196 MkII #080000376, 18GB green MkIIa #040103247, 60GB blue

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#63388 - 27/01/2002 02:49 Re: eBay LOSERS [Re: Fogduck]
bonzi
pooh-bah

Registered: 13/09/1999
Posts: 2401
Loc: Croatia
I think that many people (myself included) occasionally use illegal downloads for such 'try before buy' purpose. If I hear a new album I like or radio, I'll buy it. If I hear them talking about a hot new performer I know nothing about, I will try to download a tune or two (and either dump them or buy the album). I am not ashamed of such use of technically illegal downloads either, because I believe they lead to buying more CDs (but with fewer 'misses').
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Dragi "Bonzi" Raos Q#5196 MkII #080000376, 18GB green MkIIa #040103247, 60GB blue

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#63389 - 27/01/2002 02:53 Re: eBay LOSERS [Re: schofiel]
jnmunsey
member

Registered: 10/01/2002
Posts: 139
Loc: Houston, TX, USA
Hmmm 90% in the poll admit to having some tracks that are NOT from their personal collections.. Sounds like the vast majority to me..

Some of you also replied indicating you had *some* tracks not from your collection(100%-95%=5%). Well, whether you knowingly have 2000 or only 2 or 3 pirated songs in your collection in either case it is still against the law. Is one worse than the other? Probably, as I would think it isn't as bad if someone has spent *some* money on music.

My point was it seems *most* people have done it, even if just a tiny bit, and I thought the original post was a bit ironic

-John M

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#63390 - 27/01/2002 03:00 Re: eBay LOSERS [Re: ninti]
bonzi
pooh-bah

Registered: 13/09/1999
Posts: 2401
Loc: Croatia
Things are complicated by the fact that most of the music is copyrighted not by authors, but their publishers (most of them grouped in a handfull of global media conglomerates). "50 years after composer's death" rule still applies, but then Sony Classical or whoever will 'protect' the particular performance of a LvB's symphony, when the work itself is in public domain.

It should be noted (as has been here a number of times) that currently 'fair use' doctrine seems to be stronger in Europa than USA, but I am affraid that is eroding, too.

Perhaps someone with more knowlege on this than me could write a FAQ entry? 'Fair use' doctrine and RIAA'a attempts to squash it would be most interesting topic.
_________________________
Dragi "Bonzi" Raos Q#5196 MkII #080000376, 18GB green MkIIa #040103247, 60GB blue

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#63391 - 27/01/2002 03:49 Re: eBay LOSERS [Re: tfabris]
danthep
enthusiast

Registered: 29/08/1999
Posts: 209
Loc: new zealand
You're missing an option in your follow up poll.

No, i am now buying less CDs.

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#63392 - 27/01/2002 03:50 Re: eBay LOSERS [Re: tfabris]
danthep
enthusiast

Registered: 29/08/1999
Posts: 209
Loc: new zealand
You're missing an option in your follow up poll.

Yes, i am now buying less CDs.

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#63393 - 27/01/2002 03:56 Re: eBay LOSERS [Re: bonzi]
ninti
old hand

Registered: 28/12/2001
Posts: 868
Loc: Los Angeles
>...Sony Classical or whoever will 'protect' the particular performance of a LvB's symphony, when the work itself is in public domain.

Yeah, the performance of that artistic production is itself an artistic production subject to those same copyright laws. Similiar to your example, one of the things that really irks me about copyright law, being a big fan of paintings, is that a picture of a painting is itself copyrighted. I think that is going a little too far, it is hardly like a picture of a painting is an "artistic production".

Your example of "try before you buy" may (MAY) be legal under the fair use exceptions of the U.S. (just for general info, not that it matters much to you in Croatia). If it is non-commercial, is not a substantial portion of the work in question, and, most importantly, will not effect the potential market or value of the work, it just might fall under fair use.

I'm not a lawyer (though I play one on TV). If you get arrested, don't say, "well, Ninti said I could".
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Ninti - MK IIa 60GB Smoke, 30GB, 10GB

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#63394 - 27/01/2002 04:42 Re: eBay LOSERS [Re: jnmunsey]
Fogduck
member

Registered: 06/06/2000
Posts: 199
Loc: BC
> Well, whether you knowingly have 2000 or only 2 or 3
> pirated songs in your collection in either case it is still
> against the law. Is one worse than the other? Probably,
> as I would think it isn't as bad if someone has spent *some*
> money on music

True. Doing 5mph over the posted speed limit is illegal, just as is doing 50mph over the limit.

Its the difference between abiding by the letter of the law versus the spirit of the law.

I abide by the spirit of the law, but hardly the letter.

Also, I refuse to buy an entire CD when I like only one or two tracks off it. Until the recording industry has a way that I can buy only what I want, and that I can ensure that more profit goes to the artist, I will continue this way. If I could PayPal the money directly to the artist, you can be sure the net effect for them would be better than had I bought their work through their greedy label.

Something that is worth money to me is worth money to me. If I would never have bought a whole CD from which I have one track downloaded, is that a lost sale? No. Would I care if I accidentally deleted? A bit, but not enough, because it held little or no worth to me.

Laws are guidelines that happen to be explicit so that there is some line drawn against which to make judgement and so that stupid people do not misinterpret them. How far one deviates from the guidelines determines if they are a criminal.

I'll continue to do a small percentage over the posted speed limit, and I will continue to have a similar percentage of my music not owned.
_________________________
- - - MK2 #141 12GB Queue #5723 (SOLD) MK2a 30GB + grn + tuner + blk empeg case

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#63395 - 27/01/2002 08:40 Re: eBay LOSERS [Re: tfabris]
drakino
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
Loc: Seattle, WA
Keep in mind that even though I selected "mostly from CD and some downloaded" this still dosen't mean it's illegal. My Mark 1 introduced me to the wonders of MP3.com, and I have several downloaded and legal songs from that site. Also, I have a TMBG album that I bought online and downloaded directly.

The "downloaded a few" choice will probably be higher then the "all from my personal CD collection", but it's definitly not an indicator of how many tracks are illegal.
_________________________
Tom

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#63396 - 27/01/2002 09:41 Re: eBay LOSERS [Re: bonzi]
Anonymous
Unregistered


bonzi, who can stop me is relevant, because if they can't enforce a law then it's meaningless. That's the whole concept behind the 2nd amendment.

And no I don't think it's morally wrong.

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#63397 - 27/01/2002 11:31 Re: eBay LOSERS [Re: jnmunsey]
hybrid8
carpal tunnel

Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
    My point was it seems *most* people have done it, even if just a tiny bit, and I thought the original post was a bit ironic


Most people on this BBS are not SELLING songs they have ripped. Please go back to my original post on the subject of the eBay auction in question. There's a difference between downloading a few tracks for preview purposes and getting into the practice of selling other people's stolen work.

Hey, I've even downloaded songs for albums I own. Where do you put that one. The rips didn't actually come from my own CD. Those have long since been replaced, but I used them long ago for testing.

I know you were trying to play devil's advocate about "casting the first stone" but that's not the point. I don't think the legal system in any country would work very well if everyone involved in it had to be completely "innocent" with the exception of the crooks. Hey, I reported that guy to eBay's abuse department. When I tell people I have an MP3 in my car I don't want them to associate that with stealing music. If I'm trying to sell something on eBay, I don't want some joker who's abusing the rules and the laws to sneak in and lessen the chance of my own sales. Yeah, that last one is selfish. But this time I actually don't have anything to sell, I just thought it was vagrant abuse.

Bruno
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Bruno
Twisted Melon : Fine Mac OS Software

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#63398 - 27/01/2002 11:41 Re: eBay LOSERS [Re: ]
hybrid8
carpal tunnel

Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
So, if I were to ask Paul for your IP, then contact your provider for logs, get your phone number, reverse-lookup or go to the phone company, get your address, show up at your place, then kick the crap out of you. Would that validate the law? Probably not, because you could just say I was doing it for any number of other reasons.

I don't "not steal music" because it's illegal. I buy music because I respect the authors and I value their work. I guess it's people like yourself that make security necessary (and everything associated with it). Relating back to another thread that has gone into la-la-land, I believe rather than worry about "foreigners" everyone should be in mortal fear of their countries becoming overrun with "patriots" like yourself.

Bruno
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Bruno
Twisted Melon : Fine Mac OS Software

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#63399 - 27/01/2002 11:58 Re: eBay LOSERS [Re: Fogduck]
funmp3players
new poster

Registered: 03/01/2002
Posts: 12
In reply to:


True. Doing 5mph over the posted speed limit is illegal, just as is doing 50mph over the limit.

Its the difference between abiding by the letter of the law versus the spirit of the law.




Amen!

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#63400 - 27/01/2002 12:18 Re: eBay LOSERS [Re: hybrid8]
jnmunsey
member

Registered: 10/01/2002
Posts: 139
Loc: Houston, TX, USA
"There's a difference between downloading a few tracks for preview purposes and getting into the practice of selling "other people's stolen work."

Most copyrights do not allow "previewing". Sure there is a difference - I already acknowledged that, but it is still illegal..

MOST people with large mp3 collection have bootleg music.. There are a few who don't, and MOST who say they don't have bootleg music are lying in my opinion..

I am not preaching here, nearly all of my MP3 collection is bootleg, mainly because it takes much longer to rip my CDs and i haven't got around to it.. I am sure one of you righteous ones will probably rat me out too...

-John M

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#63401 - 27/01/2002 12:43 Re: eBay LOSERS [Re: jnmunsey]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
This is a somewhat grey area, but US Copyright Law's fair use section allows for ``research''. If one is researching whether or not one wants the recording, I think that it's fair. I've certainly bought more music in this manner than I would otherwise.
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Bitt Faulk

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#63402 - 27/01/2002 15:25 Re: eBay LOSERS [Re: jnmunsey]
dionysus
veteran

Registered: 16/06/1999
Posts: 1222
Loc: San Francisco, CA
You're forgetting about bootlegs/concert recordings/remixes/etc - These are items that are not available via cd's, and used to be passed around on mixed-tapes/burned cd's..

Same difference as 10 years ago; just a different media.
-mark
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http://mvgals.net - clublife, revisited.

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#63403 - 27/01/2002 15:32 Re: eBay LOSERS [Re: wfaulk]
dionysus
veteran

Registered: 16/06/1999
Posts: 1222
Loc: San Francisco, CA
Face it guys - no matter what the record companies want you to think, MP3's/digital downloads actually enhance the audience's awareness about bands/increase sales.

...Now to contrast that, the record companies aren't doing well this year. Sales are down. Why? BECAUSE THERE ISN'T ANY MUSIC WORTH PURCHASING OUT THERE RIGHT NOW.

I purchase good cd's when I see them; but honestly (in the popular-music scene) there's nothing good out - it's all trash.. My purchases have almost exclusivelly been techno/trance from dj's that I like and respect; but for the average consumer that's into Top-40, there's nothing but trash/repeated/already heard junk out there.

...How many songs can you think of that were playing repeatedly on the radio over a year ago, and that are still playing repeatedly?

-mark
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http://mvgals.net - clublife, revisited.

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#63404 - 27/01/2002 16:33 Re: eBay LOSERS [Re: dionysus]
hybrid8
carpal tunnel

Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
I bought some excellent albums this past year. Ok, none of them got any airplay on any station I ever listen to...

The Charlatans' Wonderland. Best album of the year as far as I'm concerned.
New Order's Get Ready.
Pulp's We Love Life

And a few others.

Anyone else think we should get Tony to shut this thread down as well? I started it about empeg resale abuse and was already thinking about putting it in OffTopic at that time. It's gone off on a complete tangent now.

Bruno
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Bruno
Twisted Melon : Fine Mac OS Software

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#63405 - 27/01/2002 17:51 2nd amendment [Re: ]
omarkhayyam
journeyman

Registered: 18/06/2001
Posts: 71
Loc: Chicago
"bonzi, who can stop me is relevant, because if they can't enforce a law then it's meaningless. That's the whole concept behind the 2nd amendment. "

When I read this I began to doubt my memory of the 2nd amendment, but when I looked at my little red constitution book there it was -- "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

With that in mind, I have to say I'm not seeing the connection between your first and second sentences. Care to clairfy? (no sarcasm intended, I'd really like to know).

-Adam
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"It's not that I'm lazy, it's that I just don't care..." -office space

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#63406 - 27/01/2002 18:31 Re: eBay LOSERS [Re: dionysus]
muzza
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 21/07/1999
Posts: 1765
Loc: Brisbane, Queensland, Australi...
How many songs can you think of that were playing repeatedly on the radio over a year ago, and that are still playing repeatedly?

if you have broadband, have a shot at triplej. They seem to have a good diversity

I used to listen to local commercial channels but it just got too ... well... commercial. One station plays nothing but teeny pop and the other has a regular rotation of Cold Chisel, Pink Floyd, Midnight Oil, and a few other rock bands. ugh, gets sooo tiring.

We just had the annual vote for tha past year's 'hottest 100' in Australia. Quite a good mix of rock & dance stuff. 8 hours of counting down on Saturday. Part of the voting I hope will have downloadable snippets of mp3s to remind you of what the song is. I hate not being able to recognise the song by its title.

I've often heard a song on the radio, done a search but come up with nothing and gone and bought the CD. Or, after finding a track on the net, enjoyed it and bought the CD as well.

As for no good music available, that depends on what you're exposed to. If, as you say, the local stations only play preteen pop, you're hard pushed to find out what's out there.
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-- Murray I What part of 'no' don't you understand? Is it the 'N', or the 'Zero'?

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#63407 - 27/01/2002 18:33 Re: eBay LOSERS [Re: ]
Chao
member

Registered: 01/01/2002
Posts: 144
Considering the content of damn near every post you've had here, you are either a very opinionated person, or trolling.

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#63408 - 27/01/2002 18:37 Re: eBay LOSERS [Re: Chao]
mandiola
enthusiast

Registered: 26/12/2001
Posts: 386
Loc: Miami, FL - Sioux Falls, SD
Honestly I think anyone who wants to engauge in debate should startup a new bbs. Im gettin kind of tired to having to go through useless arguments to find information and to help others. This BBS was setup for Empeg and Rio car player, it says so on the top. Please choose the off-topic to post these things, thats what its there for.

-Greg

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#63409 - 27/01/2002 19:42 Re: eBay LOSERS [Re: dionysus]
jnmunsey
member

Registered: 10/01/2002
Posts: 139
Loc: Houston, TX, USA
"I purchase good cd's when I see them; but honestly (in the popular-music scene) there's nothing good out - it's all trash.. My purchases have almost exclusivelly been techno/trance from dj's that I like and respect"

Hmmm imo I can't take seriously opinions of someone who considers techno/trance "good music" There was a time in the very late 80s and ealry 90s when that genre of music did require some talent and creativity to compose, but the past 5 years I have heard nothing I couldn't easily create on my own PC with significant ease.. There isn't anything original in that genre coming out either.. Only so many combinations of "unscka" music exist I suppose..

Yeah a lot of it still sounds cool but I balk at calling any of it "good"..

Perhaps I am getting too old...

-John M

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#63410 - 27/01/2002 19:46 Re: eBay LOSERS [Re: dionysus]
Micman2b
addict

Registered: 27/12/2001
Posts: 441
Loc: Central, NC, USA
Have you checked out DJFM www.djfm.com. Pretty cool stuff from Raleigh, NC
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Sean in NC
130gb MK2a w/ 32mb ram
80gb MK2a empeg spare

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#63411 - 27/01/2002 22:32 Re: 2nd amendment [Re: omarkhayyam]
Anonymous
Unregistered


omarkhayyam,

The right to bear arms is important because it gives more power to the people. If the government starts making stupid laws, they'll have a tough time enforcing it.

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