#257341 - 31/05/2005 08:52
Good things
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pooh-bah
Registered: 09/08/2000
Posts: 2091
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland
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Well, I got a nice referral fee for getting a new guy into my team so I'm going for a couple of goodies...the first is the Prodrive Performance Pack for my Scooby. Yay for upgrades! The second is a new subwoofer - the one I had was just borrowed from a mate, and it tended to move around the boot under high G manoevres, so I'll get a small fixed 10" just to round out the bass. And for the third, I think I need to get Scuba diving lessons next week when I'm on holiday in Portugal. (Can you tell I'm on wind down towards my holidays and feeling quite chirpy right now?  ) )
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Rory
MkIIa, blue lit buttons, memory upgrade, 1Tb in Subaru Forester STi
MkII, 240Gb in Mark Lord dock
MkII, 80Gb SSD in dock
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#257342 - 31/05/2005 18:46
Re: Good things
[Re: frog51]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
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Prodrive Performance Pack for my Scooby
Sweeeeeet! Which package? The IC hose, ECU and axel back?
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Brad B.
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#257343 - 01/06/2005 09:39
Re: Good things
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 09/08/2000
Posts: 2091
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland
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As this is an MY2000, the PPP consists of: - ECU upgrade
- new centre and rear stainless steel performance exhaust system
- improved intercooler pipework
- Some mod to axle or mounting - had stoppped listening at that point, was just happy with the price
Looks like that'll take peak power to 240PS at 6,000rpm - wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
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Rory
MkIIa, blue lit buttons, memory upgrade, 1Tb in Subaru Forester STi
MkII, 240Gb in Mark Lord dock
MkII, 80Gb SSD in dock
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#257344 - 01/06/2005 09:45
Re: Good things
[Re: frog51]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5914
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
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I can't yet imagine wanting more power than my stock UK MY2000, though I expect I will one day.
I still scare myself occasionally when I accidentally hook up a really good get-away from the lights and find myself pinned to the seat and fumbling for 2nd gear...
What really worries me though is that just about any other affordable performance car that I buy in the future is going to feel slow. If I don't pluck up the courage to buy a TVR Tuscan then my second choice is a Boxter and that it definitely going to feel slow compared to the Scooby.
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#257345 - 01/06/2005 09:57
Re: Good things
[Re: andy]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 17/01/2002
Posts: 3995
Loc: Manchester UK
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I got bored of the power of my 172 about 3 months after I bought it. It still owns pretty much every WRX i go up against, scooby owners never seem to shy away from a quick drag at the lights. It would be nice to have an easy power upgrade that having a turbo brings, which makes me think I'll have to have something turbocharged next.
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Andy M
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#257346 - 01/06/2005 10:16
Re: Good things
[Re: andym]
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addict
Registered: 24/07/2002
Posts: 618
Loc: South London
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Quote:
I got bored of the power of my 172 about 3 months after I bought it... It would be nice to have an easy power upgrade that having a turbo brings, which makes me think I'll have to have something turbocharged next.
Me too! It's amazing how you get used to it, it accelerates nowhere near quick enough now. It's even worse when you have to drive a "normal" car again though.
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#257347 - 01/06/2005 10:35
Re: Good things
[Re: andym]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5914
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
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The problem with the Scooby at the lights is it takes a bit of effort and practice to get away from the lights properly. You really have to be committed to pull away quickly. Once moving it takes a lot less effort to make the Scooby move quickly. In comparison my MX5 is much quicker away from the lights when you aren't really trying too hard and then it feels like you have hit a brick wall compared to the Scooby (might have to supercharge the MX5 at some point). If you get it right of course the Scooby shoots away like a scalded cat, gotta get those revs up early  I think we have had this conversation before, but even a stock old style Scooby should be faster than the 172, given that they weigh about the same, the Scooby has lots more power and a bit more torque. A stock old style WRX should be much faster. A new style stock UK WRX of course is a bit slower, thanks to its extreme lardy-arsed-ness... I haven't found a Clio driver who has beaten my MY2000 Scooby away from the lights yet (except when I have a boot full of easy-to-bruise shopping)
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#257348 - 01/06/2005 11:22
Re: Good things
[Re: andy]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 17/01/2002
Posts: 3995
Loc: Manchester UK
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Yes I think the operative word is should. You're right the old cars were more powerful and lighter than the current and previous models. But there's also the transmission to consider. I remember the newer Escort RS2000 had a 4WD model but they must've sold like 3 of them because the drivetrain just ate up all the power and made the car slow and unresponsive. I know a lot people thought the 2WD Cossie was better than the 4WD version for similar reasons.
If memory serves, isn't the new WRX simply equivalent to the old Turbo and the new STi equivalent to the old WRX? they sort tuned the models down a notch. It's also very difficult to find a scooby running stock, almost everyone you see is running increased boost. So tempting, now if only I could find someone to buy my 172....
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Andy M
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#257349 - 01/06/2005 11:32
Re: Good things
[Re: andym]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5914
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
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Quote:
Yes I think the operative word is should. You're right the old cars were more powerful and lighter than the current and previous models. But there's also the transmission to consider. I remember the newer Escort RS2000 had a 4WD model but they must've sold like 3 of them because the drivetrain just ate up all the power and made the car slow and unresponsive. I know a lot people thought the 2WD Cossie was better than the 4WD version for similar reasons.
Yeah, I'm not sure how much power the 4WD loses you (though of course some of what you lose is made up from in better traction).
There is one definite downside to the 4WD. The amount of drive line shunt (I think that is the right term for it) is huge on my Scooby. It makes driving smoothly at slow speeds a challenge.
Quote:
If memory serves, isn't the new WRX simply equivalent to the old Turbo and the new STi equivalent to the old WRX? they sort tuned the models down a notch.
I believe that is a fair summary of what they did.
Quote:
It's also very difficult to find a scooby running stock, almost everyone you see is running increased boost. So tempting, now if only I could find someone to buy my 172....
My MY2000 wasn't stock, it had one of those silly Ivor the Engine dump valves on it. I had it replaced with the stock dump valve when I bought it. It also has the STi exhaust, though I don't think that is anything special.
It is nice to know that when I do finally get used to the power I can get a significant hike in power/torque for just a few hundred quid.
I wish the clutch wasn't so argumentative. Some days it just doesn't like me and I end up squealing away from every junction. The conclusion on the various forums is "they all do that sir".
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#257350 - 01/06/2005 18:06
Re: Good things
[Re: andy]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 17/01/2002
Posts: 3995
Loc: Manchester UK
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Quote:
drive line shunt (I think that is the right term for it)
Transmission shunt? That's what I've heard it called in the past.
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Andy M
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#257351 - 01/06/2005 19:45
Re: Good things
[Re: andym]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5914
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
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Google finds plenty of references to driveline shunt. I have never heard it described as transmission shunt, but then the places I come across the term are in UK car mags (Evo and the like), where the word transmission doesn't get used much.
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#257352 - 02/06/2005 06:49
Re: Good things
[Re: andy]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 09/08/2000
Posts: 2091
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland
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I get a wee bit of transmission shunt, which will be interesting next month as I'm sitting my Advanced Motorist test in it - in practices I always need to make sure I'm in one gear too high, to keep the turbo spun down...and this is before the upgrade. As far as the clutch goes, every 3 months or so I give it a good grind by pulling away at about 6000rpm with the clutch slipping - it helps with that slight "bitiness" that creeps into Scoob clutches. Where I stay, there are a huge number of Max Power type Clios, Saxos etc and to be fair, they probably can get me off the lights (there is one guy with a supercharged 206 here which is styooooooooopidly fast to 60) so I usually don't bother with going up against them. On the open road, however, I have some slight suspension mods which make corners amazing, so under those conditions it is only Lotuses, 7's and the odd MX5 that are anywhere close (even 911's seem to take it easy up here, reckon they don't like corners with bumps  ) Power-wise, I'm never bored with it - I love acceleration, in any direction. Top speed is less important to me (I have 3 points on my licence) than being able to corner, brake and accelerate fast. All good fun!
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MkIIa, blue lit buttons, memory upgrade, 1Tb in Subaru Forester STi
MkII, 240Gb in Mark Lord dock
MkII, 80Gb SSD in dock
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#257353 - 02/06/2005 09:00
Re: Good things
[Re: frog51]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5914
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
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Quote:
I get a wee bit of transmission shunt, which will be interesting next month as I'm sitting my Advanced Motorist test in it - in practices I always need to make sure I'm in one gear too high, to keep the turbo spun down...and this is before the upgrade.
I am thinking of doing my IAM test at some point. If I do I will probably use the MX5 or the Fiesta, adjusting my driving will be enough effort without also trying to drive smoothly in the Scooby...
Quote:
As far as the clutch goes, every 3 months or so I give it a good grind by pulling away at about 6000rpm with the clutch slipping - it helps with that slight "bitiness" that creeps into Scoob clutches.
I had heard that and I have tried it a couple of times. Not yet convinced that it actually makes much difference on my car yet. Some days the clutch isn't a problem at all, other days it is a problem at every junction (I think it is worse when the weather is hot).
Quote:
On the open road, however, I have some slight suspension mods which make corners amazing, so under those conditions it is only Lotuses, 7's and the odd MX5 that are anywhere close (even 911's seem to take it easy up here, reckon they don't like corners with bumps )
What mods have you got ? That is one area where my Scooby could do with some improvement. Even though my MX5 has done 140,000 miles on one set of shocks, springs and bushes it still corners much, much nicer than the Scooby. I know the Scooby is never going to feel the same as the MX5 on corners (thanks to its higher centre of gravity), but some improvement would be nice.
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#257354 - 02/06/2005 09:30
Re: Good things
[Re: andy]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 09/08/2000
Posts: 2091
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland
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The hardest bit of the IAM test looks to be the 20mph through the centre of Linlithgow, reading out every roadsign, hazard etc while keeping speed between 18 and 20 mph (too low is a minus mark unless there is good cause) - and the local examiners are very conservative, so no heel-and-toeing, no progressive steering...yawn. I'm just doing it for the awareness training really.
I agree that everything about the Scooby is better in colder damper weather.
If you want a very quick, cheap and easy mod, go for the Prodrive recommended settings for toe-in and camber. Instant improvement to cornering, and gets rid of a wee bit of the understeer without making it too twitchy at the back end.
Aside from that, a good strut brace also stiffens the front up no end. And a set of Bridgestone SO3 P0s is worth it.
The other bits and pieces are tweaks, as I don't have much budget for mods (two babies and a wife who likes Louis Vuitton far too much)
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Rory
MkIIa, blue lit buttons, memory upgrade, 1Tb in Subaru Forester STi
MkII, 240Gb in Mark Lord dock
MkII, 80Gb SSD in dock
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#257355 - 03/06/2005 00:36
Re: Good things
[Re: frog51]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5543
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
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The hardest bit of the IAM test looks to be the 20mph through the centre of Linlithgow, reading out every roadsign, hazard etc while keeping speed between 18 and 20 mph
My God! They actually ask you Scots to demonstrate that you know how to drive in order to get a license!
Over here, they try to ascertain that you are still warm and breathing, and then test to make sure you know how to parallel park and that you know useful things like what the maximum allowable length of a towing rope is, then they turn you loose.
I wonder what the statistics are on number of traffic deaths per 100,000 miles are, comparing U.S. to Britain or Scotland? Probably an apples and oragnes comparison, though, given differences in roads, speed limits, and vehicles. Nonetheless, the idea of actually driving someplace surrounded by competent drivers is intriguing.
tanstaafl.
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#257356 - 03/06/2005 04:55
Re: Good things
[Re: tanstaafl.]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5914
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
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Quote:
My God! They actually ask you Scots to demonstrate that you know how to drive in order to get a license!
We aren't talking about the normal driving test here. This is the Institute of Advanced Motorists training and test. They base their training on the Roadcraft driving system, as tought to police drivers here in the UK.
Roadcraft emphasises things like looking out for signs that there might be a hazard coming up, not using the gears to slow down, only changing gear when you have finished breaking etc
Quote:
I wonder what the statistics are on number of traffic deaths per 100,000 miles are, comparing U.S. to Britain or Scotland? Probably an apples and oragnes comparison, though, given differences in roads, speed limits, and vehicles. Nonetheless, the idea of actually driving someplace surrounded by competent drivers is intriguing.
The death rate per 100,000 miles is lower in the UK than in the US. The UK has one of the lowest death rates per miles covered, compared to other countries.
There are still plenty of lousy drivers on the roads though, even though the driving is noticably better than the driving I saw in the US (I couldn't get over the number of single vehicle accidents we saw happen on the freeways around Seattle in just three weeks).
The worst driving that I have seen so far was in Spain. I couldn't cope with the idea that people were sounding their horns at me when I stopped for red lights or because there were pedestrians in the road...
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#257357 - 03/06/2005 08:02
Re: Good things
[Re: andy]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 12/01/2002
Posts: 2009
Loc: Brisbane, Australia
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Quote:
...not using the gears to slow down, only changing gear when you have finished breaking
What do these two have to do with good driving exactly?
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Christian
#40104192 120Gb (no longer in my E36 M3, won't fit the E46 M3)
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#257358 - 03/06/2005 09:19
Re: Good things
[Re: Shonky]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 17/01/2002
Posts: 3995
Loc: Manchester UK
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I was told when I learnt to drive that gears were for going and brakes were for slowing, Or something like that, anyway apparently in a modern car you shouldn't have to rely on engine braking.
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Andy M
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#257359 - 03/06/2005 09:40
Re: Good things
[Re: andym]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 09/08/2000
Posts: 2091
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland
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And the big problem I have with this method of driving is it says do one thing at once (brake, turn, accelerate or change gears) which means as you brake for a corner, you have to wait till you are there before changing into a gear to pull away.
I'd far rather always be in a gear which gives me torque at the speed I am at. So I always heel and toe, changing down gears as I slow, and coming into a corner I always brake late or back off to get the back out before accelerating through the turn (Roadcraft states drive through the turn, then accelerate)
And they really don't like 4 wheel drifting 
Problem is, for the next 2 weeks I'll be in Portugal (driving almost as bad as Spain, but slower) so practicing will be interesting.
I'll miss my Scooby - it's in having the operation now...
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Rory
MkIIa, blue lit buttons, memory upgrade, 1Tb in Subaru Forester STi
MkII, 240Gb in Mark Lord dock
MkII, 80Gb SSD in dock
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#257360 - 03/06/2005 12:03
Re: Good things
[Re: frog51]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5914
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
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Quote:
And the big problem I have with this method of driving is it says do one thing at once (brake, turn, accelerate or change gears) which means as you brake for a corner, you have to wait till you are there before changing into a gear to pull away.
I'd far rather always be in a gear which gives me torque at the speed I am at. So I always heel and toe, changing down gears as I slow, and coming into a corner I always brake late or back off to get the back out before accelerating through the turn (Roadcraft states drive through the turn, then accelerate)
So have you actually changed your driving to match the Roadcraft way of doing things ?
The argument for only changing down when you have finished breaking goes something like this (I am not saying I agree with the argument):
- when you change gear there is a risk of screwing up the clutch release and upsetting the balence of the car (obviously a much higher risk in high performance cars or in wet/icy conditions)
- therefore you should minimise the number of gear changes
- when braking to slow down because you have identified a hazard you don't know what speed you will be doing when you finish your breaking (because the hazard may well have cleared by the time you reach it)
- because you don't know the speed you will be at when you finish your braking there is no way of selecting the correct gear during braking so that you will end up in the gear you need
- you should therefore brake down to the required speed and then select the gear appropriate to that speed
Another argument is that changing down while braking uses more engine braking, therefore putting more wear and tear on the clutch/gearbox/engine, which are more expensive parts to repair/replace than the brake pads/disks.
Like I say, I'm not sure I agree with all of this. I do hope that the IAM instructors are willing to talk all this through and back it up with reason, rather than presenting it as "this is the way it is done, don't question it" ?
I have actually been trying the "change down only after braking" approach myself recently. I have discovered two things:
- it works better than I expected
- I was probably not changing down that often during braking anyway
P.S. Roadcraft doesn't say that you should never use engine braking, for example it recommends you use it when descending hills. I am always amazed that the vast majority of people brake all the way down steep hills, they clearly lack an understanding of gears and engine braking.
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#257361 - 03/06/2005 12:44
Re: Good things
[Re: andy]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 09/08/2000
Posts: 2091
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland
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In general (except during the lessons) I have taken what I see as the best bits (mostly the awareness training, but also some of the smoothness. The most useless bit is the steering - the argument for feeding the wheel doesn't stack up, and although various police forces have realised this, the examiner up here is very conservative. The roadcraft technique for steering is actually more dangerous than any proficient driver's technique, and one instructor did point out it was specifically designed to slow people down. And I tend to be very aware of the balance of my car and the road surface, and use gearchanges and braking to change the balance... Also, changing gear while slowing ensures I am always in the right rev range, so the turbo is spun up and ready for when I do want to accelerate. My instructor does see the validity of this argument but asks the question - do you need to be able to accelerate at any time. My answer is yes for two reasons - one, for safety I may want to get out of trouble quickly, and two, on the track it is essential I do make an awful lot of gear changes though!
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MkIIa, blue lit buttons, memory upgrade, 1Tb in Subaru Forester STi
MkII, 240Gb in Mark Lord dock
MkII, 80Gb SSD in dock
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#257362 - 03/06/2005 14:12
Re: Good things
[Re: andy]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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I know you said you don't necessarily agree with this, but:
Quote:
because you don't know the speed you will be at when you finish your braking there is no way of selecting the correct gear during braking so that you will end up in the gear you need
Yes, there is. By always being in the correct gear. This is what heel-and-toe is all about. If you slow down to where the engine is running underneath its power band, you downshift to a gear where you are in the power band. So unless your transmission is set up wildly improbably (and uselessly), you'll always be in the right gear, because as soon as it dips too low, you shift down one gear. I'd argue that this works 100% of the time in normal street driving, somwhat less in performance driving because you might enter a curve that starts sharp and winds itself out, forcing you to upshift in a curve, which is less than ideal.
Quote:
when you change gear there is a risk of screwing up the clutch release
There's also a chance of screwing up pressing the brake, too, but they don't advise you not to do it, do they?
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#257363 - 03/06/2005 15:32
Re: Good things
[Re: wfaulk]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 09/08/2000
Posts: 2091
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland
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Wow - got my car back from the garage. I heartily recommend the PPP...I am grinning like a nutter right now. I haven't gone any faster, but it gets there so much quicker, and has heaps more grunt away from the lights. Oh, and the exhaust note is so sweet
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Rory
MkIIa, blue lit buttons, memory upgrade, 1Tb in Subaru Forester STi
MkII, 240Gb in Mark Lord dock
MkII, 80Gb SSD in dock
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#257364 - 18/06/2005 13:54
Re: Good things
[Re: andy]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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I was just listening to CarTalk and they were talking about a problem with Subaru clutches that sounds like it might be similar to yours. They were saying that they have a problem with the chatter springs in the clutch plate that can cause, well, chatter. I can see how someone who drives more aggressively might experience it as a lack of slip. You might want to look into it. Also, Subaru apparently calls it judder instead of chatter.
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#257365 - 18/06/2005 13:57
Re: Good things
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
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Quote:
I was just listening to CarTalk and they were talking about a problem with Subaru clutches that sounds like it might be similar to yours. They were saying that they have a problem with the chatter springs in the clutch plate that can cause, well, chatter. I can see how someone who drives more aggressively might experience it as a lack of slip. You might want to look into it. Also, Subaru apparently calls it judder instead of chatter.
Interesting. When I last loooked into this, nearly 2 years ago (experiencing the same thing) it was being called "clutch shutter". Yet another word to toss into the mix.
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Brad B.
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#257366 - 18/06/2005 14:27
Re: Good things
[Re: frog51]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2489
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I've always like this Subaru, but what is it? I do want one one day. Its a shame I'm not allowed a test drive until I'm 30 
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#257367 - 18/06/2005 14:54
Re: Good things
[Re: CrackersMcCheese]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Specifically, an Impreza P1, which is the top-of-the-line Impreza and not sold in the US. You've got your plain-flvaored IMpreza, followed by the WRX, then the STi, then the P1.
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Bitt Faulk
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#257368 - 18/06/2005 14:58
Re: Good things
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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I'd imagine it was "shudder" rather than "shutter", but maybe not. And I may be remembering it wrong. The CarTalk segment is here. I suppose you'll have to hit it within a week.
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Bitt Faulk
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#257369 - 18/06/2005 15:03
Re: Good things
[Re: wfaulk]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2489
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Ah the P1s were the limited edition models from 2000ish? Only 1000 made? Might have to check eBay I think. But with me buying a new house I don't think I can afford new toys yet
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#257370 - 18/06/2005 15:44
Re: Good things
[Re: CrackersMcCheese]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
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The UK gets so many cool, limited edition models. The UK300 for example. I think there was a limited edition "Richard Burns" model as well. I'm still shocked we get the 2.5L, 300hp version in the US. Granted, it doesn't satisfy the "2.0 or smaller" WRC purists, but it may be the first time in the history of the automobile industry we don't get a watered down version! Bitt, you're most likely correct on the spelling there. I just saw it that way on the internet.
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Brad B.
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