#270151 - 19/11/2005 19:47
Please explain. What's so F*CKING HARD about blocking popups?!
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31583
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Every single web browser I've seen that has popup blocking built-in, including the latest versions of Firefox (yes the latest beta) and Internet Explorer, can't seem to get it right. There are still popups that sneak through.
On the PC, I use Maxthon which has the best popup blocking I've seen of them all, and even it sometimes can't block all popups. Sometimes I'll surf to a page and Maxthon will spawn a popup in IE.
WHAT THE F*CK IS SO HARD? You guys wrote the browser code, and in the browser code there's a function that spawns a new window. WHAT IS SO DIFFICULT ABOUT SIMPLY NOT RUNNING THAT CODE?
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#270152 - 19/11/2005 20:02
Re: Please explain. What's so F*CKING HARD about blocking popups?!
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/10/2000
Posts: 4931
Loc: New Jersey, USA
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Even if you can't see any flash items on the page, lots of websites are using flash to generate popups because it's not usually blocked by browsers. Have you tried something like this?
EDIT: Changed link to another site with the same info. I would rather not give Technosailor any sort satisfying feeling that comes with helping people. What kind of retarded loser sits at his computer monitoring his web logs on a Saturday night anyway?
Edited by robricc (19/11/2005 23:28)
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-Rob Riccardelli
80GB 16MB MK2 090000736
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#270153 - 19/11/2005 20:22
Re: Please explain. What's so F*CKING HARD about blocking popups?!
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/12/2001
Posts: 5528
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They could totally disable the ability for you to get popups but it would break stuff. For example you still want the ability to press a button and have a new window appear. Get rid of that and lots of websites will break.
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#270154 - 19/11/2005 20:40
Re: Please explain. What's so F*CKING HARD about blocking popups?!
[Re: tman]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 17/12/2000
Posts: 2665
Loc: Manteca, California
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There is an option to prevent that too. Or rathar it forces all new windows to open in the current window. Great for those sites that generate new windows whenever an off-site link is clicked.
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Glenn
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#270155 - 19/11/2005 21:33
Re: Please explain. What's so F*CKING HARD about blocking popups?!
[Re: gbeer]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31583
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Quote:
Or rathar it forces all new windows to open in the current window.
Yeah, even with that option enabled, these damn popups keep opening in new windows. Yes, in all the browsers I've tried.
Quote:
They could totally disable the ability for you to get popups but it would break stuff. For example you still want the ability to press a button and have a new window appear.
Right. Aware of that. My question is, why is it so absurdly difficult for the people who wrote the code to capture that button press, and the people who wrote the code to open that new window, to talk to each other?
Quote:
Even if you can't see any flash items on the page, lots of websites are using flash to generate popups because it's not usually blocked by browsers.
I didn't think Flash could cause the web browser to spawn a new window. I though it could just make a flash animation float above the current window. Which I've seen plenty of, but that's not the specific problem I'm complaining about.
If what you say is true, I'd love to find a browser or a plug-in that toggled the enable and disable of flash via a toolbar button.
Does anyone know if what Rob is saying is correct? Can flash actually spawn a new IE or Firefox window? Or can it only make flash animations float over the current web page?
Quote:
Have you tried something like this?
Yes, I will most likely resort to third-party blocking utilities soon. In the past I have done this, but then most web browsers started implementing decent pop up blocking and I no longer needed to. Now suddenly it seems the advertisers have gotten more clever and we're back to square one. But in any case, the point of this thread was more along the lines of a general theoretical question about web programming and browser behavior. Not "how do I block popups", but rather "why is it so hard for them to block popups from within the web browser's own code?"
You'd think the people who WROTE the web browser could have some influence over its own behavior, you know?
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#270156 - 19/11/2005 21:39
Re: Please explain. What's so F*CKING HARD about blocking popups?!
[Re: tfabris]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 31/08/1999
Posts: 1649
Loc: San Carlos, CA
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Quote:
Yeah, even with that option enabled, these damn popups keep opening in new windows. Yes, in all the browsers I've tried.
Out of curiosity do you have an example site that does that? I've seen lots of complaints about advertisers finding ways to get around popup blockers, but it never seems to happen to me (I use privoxy which you might want to look into).
-Mike
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#270157 - 19/11/2005 21:52
Re: Please explain. What's so F*CKING HARD about blocking popups?!
[Re: tfabris]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 12/02/2002
Posts: 2298
Loc: Berkeley, California
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Well, as long as you want some pop up windows to open, it's going to be a constant battle to filter the adds vs the legitimate windows. In the beginning, the adds used onload while the legitimate windows used onclick. So, you block the onload. So then the adds start trigging them with an onclick when you click on something you want open. And so on.
Click and Run flash is a great firefox extension. You should have it weather or not flash can spawn a window. There is the occasionall all flash web site that requires clicking and running three flash items per page, but those aren't very common.
Matthew
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#270158 - 19/11/2005 22:31
Re: Please explain. What's so F*CKING HARD about blocking popups?!
[Re: tfabris]
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new poster
Registered: 19/11/2005
Posts: 1
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Found this thread when looking through my logs. The link above is from an entry that I posted. Quote:
Yes, I will most likely resort to third-party blocking utilities soon. In the past I have done this, but then most web browsers started implementing decent pop up blocking and I no longer needed to. Now suddenly it seems the advertisers have gotten more clever and we're back to square one. But in any case, the point of this thread was more along the lines of a general theoretical question about web programming and browser behavior. Not "how do I block popups", but rather "why is it so hard for them to block popups from within the web browser's own code?"
You'd think the people who WROTE the web browser could have some influence over its own behavior, you know?
You obviously did not try THAT link because if you did you would know that that is NOT a third party "plugin". That IS the people who made the broswer giving you control over it. Read the entry so you don't sound like a retard.
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#270159 - 19/11/2005 23:02
Re: Please explain. What's so F*CKING HARD about blocking popups?!
[Re: Technosailor]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 21/05/1999
Posts: 5335
Loc: Cambridge UK
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Quote:
Read the entry so you don't sound like a retard.
Excuse me, this is a friendly community, most of us know Tony very well, personally in many cases, and it's not appreciated for an unknown to swoop in and be so rude! What image of yourself do you think you're presenting, jumping into the middle of a conversation between people you don't know (hence are unfamiliar with their background, personality or writing style) and calling somebody a retard? If you did that at a pub you'd be lucky not to get a smack in the face.
Thanks for caring. Come back when you own an empeg.
Rob
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#270160 - 19/11/2005 23:45
Re: Please explain. What's so F*CKING HARD about blocking popups?!
[Re: mcomb]
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addict
Registered: 01/03/2002
Posts: 598
Loc: Florida
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I use Firefox at work and home. About a month ago I needed to install Flash in Firefox since then I've noticed pop-ups at sites I visit that didn't have popups before installing Flash. At home I don't see any popups. I use NoScript and I don't have Flash installed.
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Chad
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#270161 - 20/11/2005 00:18
Re: Please explain. What's so F*CKING HARD about blocking popups?!
[Re: tfabris]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 15/01/2002
Posts: 1866
Loc: Austin
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http://flashblock.mozdev.org/Flash can only spawn new windows if it calls a JS function or if it use '_blank' as it's target (like HTML). ^^ AFAIK
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#270162 - 20/11/2005 00:48
Re: Please explain. What's so F*CKING HARD about blocking popups?!
[Re: Technosailor]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31583
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Quote:
You obviously did not try THAT link because if you did you would know that that is NOT a third party "plugin".
You're absolutely right. I merely followed the link and saw the web page title and assumed it was a web site for a browser plug-in. I did not read it in detail.
I was being a little bit of a jerk because I assumed that the first thing I'd get from people is links to popup blocker tools. Which, although I certainly am in need of those things, I was trying to deliberately steer the discussion back to the basic question. Sorry about that.
I'll investigate that link in much more detail soon.
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#270163 - 20/11/2005 01:12
Re: Please explain. What's so F*CKING HARD about blocking popups?!
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 23/09/2000
Posts: 3608
Loc: Minnetonka, MN
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I liked the way the google toolbar for IE did it the best. It would just block everything and if you were going to click a link that you knew would generate a pop up you wanted you would just control click and it would allow it.
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Matt
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#270164 - 20/11/2005 06:47
Re: Please explain. What's so F*CKING HARD about blocking popups?!
[Re: msaeger]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31583
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Yeah, what I'm wondering is why hat kind of behavior takes a third party application (or in the case of the firefox configuration tweak mentioned above, a secret-hidden-code thing). Why don't they just do this by default?
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#270165 - 20/11/2005 07:04
Re: Please explain. What's so F*CKING HARD about blocking popups?!
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31583
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Okay, I just tried the suggestion in firefox of setting that configuration value to 2.
Still got popups when I went to certain sites. Fewer, but still got them.
Still wondering what it is, under the hood, that allows this to even be possible, let alone so hard to prevent.
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#270166 - 20/11/2005 13:04
Re: Please explain. What's so F*CKING HARD about blocking popups?!
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14486
Loc: Canada
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Try the same sites with the same browser, under Linux instead of Redmond.
There just might be a difference there, and that might explain your observations.
Cheers
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#270167 - 20/11/2005 13:36
Re: Please explain. What's so F*CKING HARD about blocking popups?!
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4174
Loc: Cambridge, England
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Quote:
Still wondering what it is, under the hood, that allows this to even be possible, let alone so hard to prevent.
Beats me. You wouldn't catch Fresco doing that stuff: it came with a toolbar button for enable/disable Javascript as standard. Also it deliberately disobeyed all the "no toolbar, no scrollbars"-type options that the JS "new window" call could specify. I dimly remember a dialog box saying something like "A JavaScript wants to open a new window: allow Y/N", but that might have been in NCFresco -- the set-top-box version -- which runs fullscreen and can't open new windows anyway.
Back in the day, we did find at least one site (bonus.com) that had all its content in a popup, but all its scripts in the main window, so you needed both around at once (and it didn't work at all in NCFresco).
Peter
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#270168 - 20/11/2005 14:02
Re: Please explain. What's so F*CKING HARD about blocking popups?!
[Re: tfabris]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 19/09/2002
Posts: 2494
Loc: East Coast, USA
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I have to tin-foil-hat this one and ask: Is it hard to prevent or do the developers just not WANT to prevent it? What profit incentive does MS have to fight the marketers who are constantly abusing their code? And does the Mozilla community have time to fight this battle?
Google, on the other hand, is more than happy to further ingrain their name into your every fabric of existance via a solidly working popup blocking solution. Just like so many other software tools/utilities, let third parties profit from solutions that the big boys don't want to fix/implement.
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- FireFox31 110gig MKIIa (30+80), Eutronix lights, 32 meg stacked RAM, Filener orange gel lens, Greenlights Lit Buttons green set
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#270169 - 20/11/2005 15:39
Re: Please explain. What's so F*CKING HARD about blocking popups?!
[Re: tfabris]
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addict
Registered: 01/03/2002
Posts: 598
Loc: Florida
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Tony, can you PM me or post a list of sites your still getting popups at? I would like to see if I get the popups.
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Chad
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#270170 - 20/11/2005 15:49
Re: Please explain. What's so F*CKING HARD about blocking popups?!
[Re: FireFox31]
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addict
Registered: 01/03/2002
Posts: 598
Loc: Florida
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Quote:
I have to tin-foil-hat this one and ask: Is it hard to prevent or do the developers just not WANT to prevent it?
My creditcards and bank all use popups. Even at work our system uses popups when someone enters data in a form incorrectly we use the popup to greater explain what they did wrong.
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Chad
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#270171 - 20/11/2005 17:25
Re: Please explain. What's so F*CKING HARD about blocking popups?!
[Re: Attack]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31583
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Quote:
can you PM me or post a list of sites your still getting popups at?
If you want popups, including ones harboring Java trojans and such (make sure your virus scanner is up to date), just surf to astalavista.box.sk and use its search feature to search for registration serial numbers to popular apps. The crack/serialnumber sites that get sub-linked as a result of your search almost universally have serious popup and trojan problems. Try a bunch of those.
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#270172 - 20/11/2005 17:35
Re: Please explain. What's so F*CKING HARD about blocking popups?!
[Re: tfabris]
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addict
Registered: 01/03/2002
Posts: 598
Loc: Florida
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I searched for UltraEdit and clicked on all the resulting links. I didn't get one popup. Do I need to try and download from one of these sites?
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Chad
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#270173 - 21/11/2005 00:44
Re: Please explain. What's so F*CKING HARD about blocking popups?!
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14486
Loc: Canada
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Not a single pop-up of any kind. Mozilla 1.7.12-ubunutu1 (Linux).
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#270174 - 21/11/2005 01:03
Re: Please explain. What's so F*CKING HARD about blocking popups?!
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 23/09/2000
Posts: 3608
Loc: Minnetonka, MN
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With firefox and the popups must die extension installed I got no popups from sites listed in the results for serial numbers. Without it I did get popups.
The problem with the popups must die extension is it won't open a new window for anything like if I click a link that wants to open a new window nothing happens and I have to right click and tell it to open in a new window.
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Matt
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#270175 - 25/11/2005 23:07
Re: Please explain. What's so F*CKING HARD about blocking popups?!
[Re: msaeger]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31583
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Here's another example of a web site that gets around the popup blockers built in to my web browsers. http://www.planetvids.com/html/Missle-Jam.html
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#270176 - 26/11/2005 04:37
Re: Please explain. What's so F*CKING HARD about blocking popups?!
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14486
Loc: Canada
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Nice video! But still no pop-ups here.
Cheers
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#270177 - 26/11/2005 05:18
Re: Please explain. What's so F*CKING HARD about blocking popups?!
[Re: mlord]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 15/01/2002
Posts: 1866
Loc: Austin
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You'll never get him to switch.
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#270178 - 26/11/2005 05:24
Re: Please explain. What's so F*CKING HARD about blocking popups?!
[Re: tfabris]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 12/02/2002
Posts: 2298
Loc: Berkeley, California
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The only time I got pop-ups from that page was when I clicked-n-ran the flash ad. I'm not sure that's what caused it, but I went back twice more when the add was non-flash, and didn't get any popups.
Blocking all or no popups is easy. The moment you want to teach your computer to think, you've got yourself a much bigger problem.
Matthew
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#270179 - 26/11/2005 06:42
Re: Please explain. What's so F*CKING HARD about blocking popups?!
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
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I tired multiple videos on that site, and not a single one caused a popup in Safari under 10.4.3. Also helped to prove the WMV Quicktime codec I found works great, no more need for Windows Media Player on the Mac now.
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#270180 - 26/11/2005 07:23
Re: Please explain. What's so F*CKING HARD about blocking popups?!
[Re: tfabris]
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addict
Registered: 27/10/2002
Posts: 568
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Didin't get any popups with Opera on Windows 2000 from that site either...
Stig
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