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#325819 - 09/09/2009 17:03 Beatles: Mono or Stereo?
Taym
carpal tunnel

Registered: 18/06/2001
Posts: 2504
Loc: Roma, Italy
So, my gf wants to buy the just released Beatles Super Duper Remastered Box Set. But, it comes in two versions: mono e stereo. Why? What would you chose? Why the mono version costs more?
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#325820 - 09/09/2009 17:22 Re: Beatles: Mono or Stereo? [Re: Taym]
hybrid8
carpal tunnel

Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
The mono is a limited edition as far as I know. It also doesn't include all the albums, but only the mono albums. It's a purist's box set.

The mono recordings supposedly sound fuller, punchier and just "better" than the stereo mixes. Not because they're in mono, but because the stereo versions just weren't mixed as well and have, according to some, degraded some of the attributes of the original mono recordings.

If you want a complete collection in a one box, you need to get the stereo set. Or if you don't mind multiple items, you can get the mono box and then buy the others individually. I believe only the stereo albums will be available individually.
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#325821 - 09/09/2009 17:24 Re: Beatles: Mono or Stereo? [Re: Taym]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31582
Loc: Seattle, WA
Quote:
But it’s “The Beatles in Mono” box set that’s sparked the excitement of fans. The limited edition release has already sold out its pre-order copies at Amazon.com and other retailers, according to BeatleNews.com. “The new generation of CD buyers will probably be mystified by this mono and stereo thing,” Howlett said. “But the Beatles were recording at a time when there was this transition from mono, so they really only got to grips with stereo at the very end of their career.”


Quote:
The mono box also contains its equivalent of “Past Masters,” which is a double CD called “Mono Masters” that collects up mono mixes of stray single and EP tracks. These are the mixes fans originally heard on their old records, which differ from the stereo versions. For example, Heatley said, “In the mono ‘Revolution’ there’s more distortion and it’s a harder kind of ‘Revolution.’”


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#325822 - 09/09/2009 17:26 Re: Beatles: Mono or Stereo? [Re: tfabris]
hybrid8
carpal tunnel

Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
The other thing to note for those who might be interested in pure digital purchases... The release of these sets pretty much puts off any iTunes Beatles appearance for at least a few months - likely 6 or more. Obviously to make sure the CDs sell through as well as possible.
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#325823 - 09/09/2009 17:33 Re: Beatles: Mono or Stereo? [Re: Taym]
peter
carpal tunnel

Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4174
Loc: Cambridge, England
The issues seem to be
  • if you remember the Beatles from back in the day, you were listening to the mono mixes (Radio Caroline was mono, and BBC Radio 1 was -- according to Wikipedia but I can hardly believe it -- mono until 1988) or to mono records;
  • the mono and stereo mixes are sometimes different, including allegedly on Tomorrow Never Knows, and a suitably completomanic Beatles fan would want both;
  • it's further alleged that the Beatles themselves were more involved with the mono mixing process than the stereo mixing process, so the mono ones are in some sense more "authentic".
IMNSHO you want the stereo ones.

Peter

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#325824 - 09/09/2009 17:35 Re: Beatles: Mono or Stereo? [Re: hybrid8]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
Actually, both the mono and stereo pressings are supposed to be remastered. If you're not getting the original mono version, I'm not sure what the advantage is; it's not for the purists, as it's not the original mono mix.

I can't come up with a good reason to get the mono version.
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#325825 - 09/09/2009 17:39 Re: Beatles: Mono or Stereo? [Re: wfaulk]
hybrid8
carpal tunnel

Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
Ramastered != Remixed

The mono versions just released are supposedly every bit as good (but cleaner) than any mono version ever released.

The stereo versions are also better and cleaner, however they are not new stereo mixes, and therefore suffer the same differences weaknesses when compared to the mono versions as all past releases.

I've read a number of reviews from people who have listened to the entirety of both the new box sets.

I plan on auditioning stereo versus mono versions of a number of tracks, since supposedly, they're all different enough between mono and stereo to notice a difference other than channel separation.
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#325827 - 09/09/2009 17:53 Re: Beatles: Mono or Stereo? [Re: peter]
DWallach
carpal tunnel

Registered: 30/04/2000
Posts: 3810
Given that the stereo mixes have been remixed from the master tapes, one might assume/hope that they now capture the gestalt of the "proper" mono mixes. Given that Giles Martin did all this work (Giles is the son of George Martin, the original producer, who also did the manically cool work on 'Love' -- check out the NPR interview), one would expect him to have put the extra effort into the process to get it just so.

I think I'm with Peter. The stereo mixes must be the ones to get.

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#325831 - 09/09/2009 18:10 Re: Beatles: Mono or Stereo? [Re: DWallach]
hybrid8
carpal tunnel

Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
Again, the stereo stuff has been remastered from the original stereo tapes AFAIK, not "remixed" from the original mono tapes. They will sound better (in a remastered sense) than stereo copies before them, but they will not be new mixes, adding what's missing from the mono versions.

I already have their entire catalogue, so I'm going to listen to as much of these new remasters as possible.
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#325834 - 09/09/2009 18:43 Re: Beatles: Mono or Stereo? [Re: hybrid8]
Taym
carpal tunnel

Registered: 18/06/2001
Posts: 2504
Loc: Roma, Italy
Empeg BBS... Amazing.

Thank you. In 1 hr time all my doubts are gone. smile

And, yes, I think I do want the stereo version, also because what she wants is the "complete" collection, which MONO box set is not.
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#325836 - 09/09/2009 19:06 Re: Beatles: Mono or Stereo? [Re: hybrid8]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
Originally Posted By: hybrid8
Ramastered != Remixed

Ack! You're right, of course.

It's still unclear to me if the stereo versions were remixed or only remastered. If they're just remastered, I recall the early albums having a really lousy stereo mix. Unless you really want to fade between John's guitar on the right and George's guitar on the left, I'd get the mono recordings.
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#325839 - 09/09/2009 19:35 Re: Beatles: Mono or Stereo? [Re: wfaulk]
DWallach
carpal tunnel

Registered: 30/04/2000
Posts: 3810
Reviews are mixed. There's some consensus that the earlier albums sound better in mono with the later psychedelic ones requiring stereo for maximum effect. (Can you imagine the white album in mono? I don't think so.)

For anyone who hasn't listened to it, do go and check out that NPR interview with Giles Martin. Giles talks about going back to the original master tapes, having them digitized, and how great they sounded. He also was hinting at their future (present!) release.

After hearing that interview, I promptly went out and bought the DVD Audio edition of Love, and I have to say, track ten ("Being for the Benefit of Mr. Kite!"/"I Want You (She's So Heavy)"/"Helter Skelter") is truly brilliant stuff. Our Acura TL groks DVD Audio and it's just a very intense experience.

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#325840 - 09/09/2009 19:44 Re: Beatles: Mono or Stereo? [Re: Taym]
mlord
carpal tunnel

Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14486
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: taym
And, yes, I think I do want the stereo version, also because what she wants is the "complete" collection, which MONO box set is not.

That should be She, not she!! wink

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#325841 - 09/09/2009 20:00 Re: Beatles: Mono or Stereo? [Re: mlord]
Taym
carpal tunnel

Registered: 18/06/2001
Posts: 2504
Loc: Roma, Italy
OOps!
smile
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#325842 - 09/09/2009 20:02 Re: Beatles: Mono or Stereo? [Re: wfaulk]
andy
carpal tunnel

Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5914
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
Originally Posted By: wfaulk
Originally Posted By: hybrid8
Ramastered != Remixed

It's still unclear to me if the stereo versions were remixed or only remastered. If they're just remastered, I recall the early albums having a really lousy stereo mix. Unless you really want to fade between John's guitar on the right and George's guitar on the left, I'd get the mono recordings.

The BBC Radio 2 documentary about the remastering made it sound like there was an awful lot more work than just cleaning the masters up. They were talking about and demonstrating how they had managed to separate guitars from drums and the like digitally.

From the documentary I understood that they were using those techniques to move stuff around in the stereo mix, to get away from the not-really-stereo original mix. Maybe I misunderstood or read too much into what they were saying ?
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#325843 - 09/09/2009 20:10 Re: Beatles: Mono or Stereo? [Re: andy]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31582
Loc: Seattle, WA
Originally Posted By: andy
They were talking about and demonstrating how they had managed to separate guitars from drums and the like digitally.


That was so that they could make Beatles Rock Band, which, not coincidentally, came out today too.
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Tony Fabris

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#325844 - 09/09/2009 20:13 Re: Beatles: Mono or Stereo? [Re: tfabris]
hybrid8
carpal tunnel

Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
Originally Posted By: tfabris
That was so that they could make Beatles Rock Band, which, not coincidentally, came out today too.


And people are already talking about ripping the songs from that to make their own new stereo masters. smile
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Bruno
Twisted Melon : Fine Mac OS Software

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#325847 - 09/09/2009 20:39 Re: Beatles: Mono or Stereo? [Re: hybrid8]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31582
Loc: Seattle, WA
The thing is, in order to do the "extract the guitar bass drums from a single track mono recording" trick, you're talking pretty arcane stuff and it's not perfect.

I haven't heard this myself yet, but from what I've read, the tracks don't sound like fresh clean stems from a multi-track tape. The resulting arcanely-separated tracks sound kind of thin and still have remnants of the other instruments in them. It's only when they're added back together that they begin to sound like a proper recording again. This works fine for the Rock Band game, where your goal is to make it sound like the bass dropped out when your bassist makes a mistake. But for an audio recording purist who wants something he can truly remix as if he'd had original stems, that's not going to be available.
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#325849 - 09/09/2009 21:18 Re: Beatles: Mono or Stereo? [Re: wfaulk]
tman
carpal tunnel

Registered: 24/12/2001
Posts: 5528
Originally Posted By: wfaulk
If they're just remastered, I recall the early albums having a really lousy stereo mix. Unless you really want to fade between John's guitar on the right and George's guitar on the left, I'd get the mono recordings.

Wasn't that the reason for the crossfade feature in the empeg software? I wondered what that was for until somebody mentioned it.

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#325850 - 09/09/2009 21:59 Re: Beatles: Mono or Stereo? [Re: andy]
Robotic
pooh-bah

Registered: 06/04/2005
Posts: 2026
Loc: Seattle transplant
My copy of Meet the Beatles is one such example of horrible 'stereo' recording technique... instruments in one ear and vocals in the other. I always liked to flip the output to mono when I used the headset.

I wonder where that record is... hmm
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#325851 - 09/09/2009 22:02 Re: Beatles: Mono or Stereo? [Re: tman]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31582
Loc: Seattle, WA
That was part of the reason, but it wasn't called crossfade, it had another name, like stereo speaker simulator or something.

Crossfade is DJ mixing one song into the next song.

The speaker simulator makes it so that listening to headphones, your left and right ears get mixed together a bit, with the mixed signal from the opposite ear slightly delayed to simulate the farther distance an audio wave would take to travel to the other ear.

This isn't really just for Beatles, although they're a great example. Certain Beatles songs (not the earlist songs which were mono, but rather the stereo songs from a bit later) were mixed with all of the instruments and voices hard-panned to one side or the other, making them interesting to listen to on speakers, but difficult to listen to on headphones. The speaker simultator feature let you listen on headphones and hear them like they were on speakers.
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Tony Fabris

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#325862 - 10/09/2009 04:33 Re: Beatles: Mono or Stereo? [Re: tfabris]
Roger
carpal tunnel

Registered: 18/01/2000
Posts: 5682
Loc: London, UK
Originally Posted By: tfabris
This isn't really just for Beatles


Yeah, it is. I specifically requested JG implement that feature so that I could listen to my Beatles tracks on my Karma. The feature made it back into the v3 code base.
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#325903 - 10/09/2009 17:41 Re: Beatles: Mono or Stereo? [Re: Roger]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31582
Loc: Seattle, WA
OK. You may have requested it specifically for the Beatles, but what I was trying to say was that a speaker simulator is a valid thing for any stereo music, not just the Beatles. Even music that isn't hard-panned could benefit from speaker simulation.

When an artist mixes a song, generally it's mixed on reference speakers rather than headphones. So there can easily be effects or even mixing levels that appear significantly different when played on speakers. Common phase interactions between the left and right speakers are nonexistent on headphones. Case in point.
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#325904 - 10/09/2009 17:43 Re: Beatles: Mono or Stereo? [Re: Taym]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31582
Loc: Seattle, WA
Originally Posted By: taym
But, it comes in two versions: mono e stereo. Why? What would you chose? Why the mono version costs more?


An even more detailed answer can be found in the Wiki entry about Sgt. Pepper...

Quote:
The Beatles were present during the mixing of the album in mono and the LP was originally released as such alongside a stereo mix prepared by Abbey Road engineers led by Geoff Emerick; the Beatles themselves did not attend the mixing of the stereo version. (The mono version is now out of print on vinyl, but was re-released on CD as part of the Beatles in Mono box set on 9 September 2009 worldwide) The two mixes are fundamentally different. For example, the stereo mix of "She's Leaving Home" was mixed at a slower speed than the original recording and therefore plays at a slower tempo and at a lower pitch than the original recording. Conversely, the mono version of "Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds" is considerably slower than the stereo version and features much heavier flanging and reverb effects. McCartney's yelling voice in the coda section of "Sgt. Pepper (Reprise)" (just before the segue into "A Day in the Life") can plainly be heard in the mono version, but is nearly inaudible in the stereo version. The mono version of the song also features drums that open with much more presence and force, as they are turned well up in the mix. Also in the stereo mix, the famous segue at the end of "Good Morning Good Morning" (the chicken-clucking sound which becomes a guitar noise) is timed differently and a crowd noise tape comes in later during the intro to "Sgt. Pepper (Reprise)".
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#325912 - 10/09/2009 19:34 Re: Beatles: Mono or Stereo? [Re: tfabris]
hybrid8
carpal tunnel

Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
Does anyone know if there exist multiple (discrete) track sources for the mono albums? I suspect that only the final mono masters exist and that's why we haven't seen a new stereo mix.
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Bruno
Twisted Melon : Fine Mac OS Software

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#325913 - 10/09/2009 19:37 Re: Beatles: Mono or Stereo? [Re: hybrid8]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31582
Loc: Seattle, WA
Originally Posted By: hybrid8
Does anyone know if there exist multiple (discrete) track sources for the mono albums? I suspect that only the final mono masters exist and that's why we haven't seen a new stereo mix.


Wherever discrete tracks were available, they were used to make the Rock Band Beatles game. So for what they had for Sgt. Pepper, for example, they used that. Remember that was just a pair of four track machines and a shitload of bounce-downs, so there's some stuff that wasn't separated.

For those where separate tracks weren't available, as I said above, they did some arcane stuff to simulate the same effect that discrete tracks would have given you.

Those resulting separated and faux-separated tracks are extractable from the game data, just sayin'.
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#326021 - 12/09/2009 21:46 Re: Beatles: Mono or Stereo? [Re: Taym]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
I've got access to copies of both box sets.

The mono set doesn't include Abbey Road, Let It Be, and Yellow Submarine. In addition, disc 2 of the Past/Mono Masters set contains about half different stuff.

In addition to the differences between the Past/Mono Masters disc, the Mono set also contains the original stereo mixes of Help and Rubber Soul. I can't figure out if these are the new remasters or not.

The stereo separation on the Stereo versions of Please Please Me and With the Beatles is still miserable. The rest are fine. I haven't done any A/B comparison on the rest, which were originally mixed competently.

It's notable that the only included album that wasn't originally either UK-only or worldwide is Magical Mystery Tour.
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#326099 - 14/09/2009 19:33 Re: Beatles: Mono or Stereo? [Re: wfaulk]
boxer
pooh-bah

Registered: 16/04/2002
Posts: 2011
Loc: Yorkshire UK
None of this matters if you're sitting at home with Sgt. Pepper with the original LP including the cut outs, or MMT on the two EP's and you were in London during those famous swinging 60's: You just had to be there!....and if you are that old, you probably don't have ears good enough to detect all the nuances in the different versions, but just enjoy the music and not the technicalities!
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