On dim, mai 14, 2000 at 11:26:13 +0000, Rob Voisey wrote:
> BBS offline readers allow users to post back into the message groups
> they're reading. They also maintain whatever threading is in operation
> (individual messageboards at least). The BBS email interface can't do
> this.

That's very true and I deeply regret this, but it's not my fault if the
Email interface on the BBS is so limited.
(if you ask me, it's intentional: a commercial web based BBS has to use the
embrace and extend method, if it allowed full Email access without ever
logging in, it would be good for the software)

> I'm concerned that the mailing list forwarder effectively splits the BBS
> because it can't insert replies back into the threads. I understood the

Again, this is the last of my intents, but it's not my fault if the BBS
won't allow for this. BTW, it's not the mailing list that can't insert
replies back into the threads, it's the BBS that can't accept them (AFAIK)

> email interface to be a facility for lurkers, or those who wished to
> conveniently monitor posts before logging in to respond to any topics of
> interest. My personal opinion is that if the mailing list service is to
> draw posts from the BBS then replying to the list should not be allowed.

The mailing list will do whatever its subscribers decide. If they wish to
log into the BBS, try to find the post they want to answer and answer there,
they get to do it (provided they can find the thread on the BBS, I'm still
looking for it as I want to post my answer there).
If people decide they don't have the time or don't want to deal with it and
only reply to the original poster (provided his/her Email is known) and to
the subscribers of the list, that's their choice to.

> It may not be at all clear to those on the list that their comments are
> not being contributed to the BBS

I've made it clear on the http://empeg.merlins.org/ page

> (or maybe they won't care - but it seems very selfish to me, taking
> content but giving nothing back).

That's your point of view. How about people who can't follow threads on the
BBS for one of the following reasons:
- lack of time (I can tell you that as far as I'm concerned, if the threads
weren't ending up in my mailbox, there is no way I'd be able to read them.
That's the same reason why I'm two month behind on freshmeat reading)
- money (for those who pay for internet access by the minute, the BBS costs
many times more money (10 times? more?) than an Email feed
- No web access for one reason or another, or a connection so slow that
reading through the web page is way too time consuming

So, aren't BBS users cutting those people off by not posting to the onelist
that was there at the begining?
Can not referencing that mailing list in favor of the BBS, and therefore
more or less causing it to die, be regarded as selfish too?

> There is already an independent mailing list that people can post to, and
> if it's not popular because it's on a commercial server then let me know
> and I'll set one up at empeg.com.

It's not popular because all the discussions happen on the BBS, whether
people like it or not.
It's also not popular because neither empeg's web site or its newsletters
make any reference whatsoever to it among the list of links given.
If I go to the main page, I see "Check out the Unofficial Empeg Discussion
List - the best place to chat about the empeg!". That's all it says.
How do you expect anyone to know about that mailing list?

And now, it's pretty much too late, since everyone hangs out on the BBS, the
mailing list won't go anywhere. That's why I created my lists, because you
wouldn't be cut off the discussions if you subscribed.

> I find this threaded html BBS extremely convenient, and I'll be

That's where people disagree. I find it extremely unconvenient and I'm far
from being the only one, some other ones love it. Diversity is fine.

> I think it has been well demonstrated that people DO want the BBS. A

No. _some_ people do want the BBS. Some other ones hate it. I got several
Emails telling me how people loved the Email interface, despite all its
shortcomings (and I'll be the first one to admit that because of the
crippled feed provided by the BBS, my interface can't do miracles,
especially with regards to posters' Email addresses, or threads)

> mailing list has been available for ages, and receives virtually no
> traffic at the moment. I don't believe for a moment that this is because
> the list is hosted by OneList (or whatever they're called now).

I agree. The reasons are other, and I've already stated them.

> Conversely, people here are now donating money to upgrade the BBS software!

And people are telling me they love the Email interface too (actually I
wrote it in the first place after a couple of friends told me how they were
like me, and just couldn't follow the discussions on the BBS).

> If the purpose of the new mailing gateway is to pull content from the BBS
> to gain popularity, and then to ultimately replace the BBS, I find that a
> little anti-social. It will also be very detrimental to the empeg

My goal has never been to replace the BBS, I'd much rather have the BBS and
the mailing list cohabit.
However, as stated on my page, while my primary goal was to create something
I could read out of the digest blobs, if subscribers decide to create or
continue threads on the mailing list only, they're free to do so.
I have no intention to cripple mailman to prevent them from posting back.

If you see that as anti-social, how is forcing everyone to use a BBS with
clear shortcomings? Couldn't that be seen as anti-social too?


When I'm talking about cohabitation with the BBS, I'm sincere. If PaulH can
somehow suck messages back into his board, I'll be happy to provide him with
messages from the list and in a format much easier to deal with than the
digests that BBS puts out.
If his software can't do that, and because it cuts itself off by being
proprietary and closed, it can't get posts from the mailing lists, am I the
one to blame?

> community, as the BBS provides a great interface for new or potential
> owners to browse through the last year or so of conversation. A mailing
> list digest doesn't attract the same "drop in, have a browse, look a
> little deeper, get hooked" effect.

Mmmh, as you know mailman does have mail archives too:
http://empeg.merlins.org/archives/empeg-general/2000-May/thread.html

Sure, they're missing the pretty colors and icons that you'd have on the
BBS, but I not certain how that prevents the "drop in, have a browse, look a
little deeper, get hooked"
For that matter, I know people who saw the BBS and said "this looks cool,
but I'm not going to spend hours to click all over and read those threads"


On lun, mai 15, 2000 at 07:30:41 +0000, Henno Putto wrote:
> Great, so we agree that the discussions should be kept on centre stage:
> here. I'm worried that not everyone will find the way from the list to
> [here. It should be dead easy to dis-allow replies to the list / tell your
> readers to log-in here. Any chance that you will will do so; to encourage
> your readers to reply to the place where it matters?

I'm afraid no. I will leave them the liberty of choosing what they prefer.


And now I'm off clicking all over the BBS to find where to insert this
answer :-(
(great, I had to look 10mn for it because it was hidden as a subthread of
"Flood of users after Mark II Ships?" and there was no way to find it
without opening all the threads)

Marc

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