Sealed hatchback box?

Yup, plain and simple box. I used it in my last two cars until the sub died and had to be replaced.

Yikes. I'm using a Polk DX 10-inch with a Jensen amp. Do you have any idea why the sub died, and do you think I should be worried about the same thing happening to mine?

Hmm I can't really remember - I had a Polk db10 - and it was in use for ohh I think 4 years. I remember it wasnt because the coil got too hot, but there was rubbing between the voice coil and the magnet - it was clearly evident when it was taken apart. I wouldn't really worry about it, I think this was sort of a fluke from what my friend told me - he installs car stereos for a living.

... but your perception of a sub to wake up your neighbors is what I disagree with...

Am I typing invisible sentences? I already said that I don't believe subs are just for people who want to boom on down the street. I'm trying to save money here.

I think he was in the middle of typing that reply when you were typing yours. Crossed messages.

Oh. Hadn't thought to check the post times. Oops.

Although I'm afraid to kick start the flamewar, I have to admit I have been in various cars with subwoofers and not seen an improvement in sound quality over my sub-less install. In fact in general I have seen a huge degradation in quality.

I am more than prepared to believe that this is down to the particular configuration in these cars, but am a little confused by how a subwoofer really helps in a car.

At home, definitely - it fills in the sound gap at the bottom end, and just makes the sound bigger, but in the car road noise covers that frequency range, so you need to turn it up too high to make a difference and then it just hurts. Easier just to ignore the very low end of the frequency range.

What I tend to do is have the volume set up in my car so I can hear the songs above my own singing and it all seems fine. And that is just with stock Impreza speakers, which are pretty basic.

I would like to be convinced that a subwoofer will be worth the loss of space in the boot, but experience has shown me otherwise. So far.

I just wanted to get my feet wet here for a second..

I do not have a sub in my car, and am running the factory speakers. I have a Clarrion 4 way armd with 300 wats. I am pleased with the sound as is, but am aware that it could be better. But for my non competition tuned ears it suits my purpose and thats what is important. Me.

I dont believe I have ever been in a car with a sub installed. I could be missing more, and know that - and this may be a case of what I dont know wont hurt me. Ignorance is bliss, and all that.

I do believe that a lot of the punks in my neighborhood have their subs thumping too loud on purpose, just for the shock value when they pull up next to me. But I must admit, that does not help a sub reputatuon much when the only exposure you get is THUMP THUMP THUMP from half a mile away.

I would love to hear Tonys set up with a properly adjusted sub. If I did my mouth would probably water and I would have to go get one. On the other hand, maybe I better not. I am kinda happy the way I am now.

Chill out pal........

I can stay "chilled" just fine as long as people don't tell me how to do things. Are you going to be in my car? Would I care what you thought if you were? Do you think I would let you listen to your stuff if you were, Mr. Subs Are Mandatory? No, it would be my empeg in the dash, not yours.

Learn to respect other people's opinions and come up with a reason for disagreeing instead of just telling them that they are wrong for not wanting to do it your way.

Perhaps now you might understand, and will use your brain before you piss off the next guy.

I know this is over kill for the speakers

Don't worry about overkill,
I have a Rockford Fosgate 800.4 running my 4 factory speakers
and a bd1000.1 running 2 500watt 10" Rockford subs.

<note to self> time to upgrade my speakers </note to self>

..i can not be blamed for other peoples insecurities......what you have done is taken my opinion on a TOPIC and turned it into what you think is my opinion of YOU...i don't even know you and judging by your defensive posture...am glad to keep it that way...in the future keep to the subject of these forums and not your own personal problems and we will all be better informed and happier for it....i think the password is "GROW-UP"

That is exactly what I was refraining from saying to you. I thought I would express my thoughts in a civilized manner, about the rude way you stated your opinion. And doing that gets me called a child. I wonder who is more immature here.

Go back to your little Miata with your little high-end system. I am through attempting to be civilized with someone who is intent on ruining my day if he can. You remind me of the type that goes into a chat room to start fights. I don't go in chats anymore.

...I'm sorry..were you speaking me me???

I would love to hear Tonys set up with a properly adjusted sub. If I did my mouth would probably water and I would have to go get one.

My stereo is not a particularly spectacular one in terms of sound quality. It's got four reasonably good speakers in the factory locations, a reasonably good subwoofer in the trunk, and a moderate amount of amplification. It's tuned and tweaked reasonably well, but not perfect. It's by no means a "mouth-watering" system. I've heard those kinds of systems, and I know mine doesn't come close.

What I do know is that the subwoofer is what turned my system from "just not good enough" to "more than good enough".

but am a little confused by how a subwoofer really helps in a car. (...) At home, definitely - it fills in the sound gap at the bottom end, and just makes the sound bigger (...)

Exactly. The same things that make subwoofers sound good in home stereo systems is what makes them sound good in cars.

but in the car road noise covers that frequency range, so you need to turn it up too high to make a difference and then it just hurts.

Because most car speaker systems simply can't reproduce that frequency range at all, it's not just a question of compensating for road noise. It's about getting the music to sound right, with or without road noise.

If you're in a car where "it just hurts", then the system simply isn't tuned well.

I would like to be convinced that a subwoofer will be worth the loss of space in the boot, but experience has shown me otherwise. So far.

I understand what you're saying, and I know the kind of experience you've had. It's too bad you're in Scotland, otherwise I'd demonstrate my system for you...

Would you please continue the petty bickering? I find it most intruiging.

I would like to be convinced that a subwoofer will be worth the loss of space in the boot, but experience has shown me otherwise. So far.

Whether or not I could convince you depends more on how important your music is to you than how your music sounds.

If, like the great majority of car owners, you have music in your car because it's better than just listening to silence or road noise, then you don't need a subwoofer. I make no assertion that there is anything wrong with this point of view. Even though it is not my outlook, it is perfectly valid.

If, on the other hand, your music is important, nay, essential to your driving enjoyment, then you need a subwoofer. Not a big box full of 12" subs cranked up to the max -- a single 10" in a sealed enclosure will give your music a warmth, a presence, an ambience that you just can't get any other way.

No amount of proselytizing on my part will convince you of this, so I'll stop now. But if there's any way you can manage it, find someone with a really good sounding, properly tuned, competition quality stereo in his car, and listen to it. Then, turn off the subwoofer(s) and listen again. You will be astounded by the difference.

tanstaafl.

Totally agree....I have my sub in the drivers compartment of the car and the soundstage with the sub on is many times over better than when it is off...and with the priceless parametric equalizer (the only one on the market, i'll bet) built into the unit you can tweak the system to perfection....i am driving a JL audio sub with an MTX 4244 4ch amp with the rear channels bridged into the sub, which as a dual voice coil and, thus a 2 ohm resistance, and the excersion on the driver is amazing! I think I am pushing about 150 watts through it, but it could easily take more. A class D mono amp of 350-500 watts would be just about perfect as this sub just absorbs as much power as you can give it........

the possibilites are endless!

If, on the other hand, your music is important, nay, essential to your driving enjoyment, then you need a subwoofer.

Right. I'll take a moment to make this point again (I'm sure I've said it before, but it certainly bears repeating):

Some feel that the car is a poor place to spend your prime audio dollar. Why sink a lot of money into making your car system sound good? The car is a terrible listening environment, due to things like road noise and the acoustic limitations of car interiors.

To that, I answer with the following points:

- I spend a lot of time in my car. During that time, there is nothing to do other than operate the vehicle. Listening to music is the perfect pastime in the car, it's basically the only thing I can do safely while driving. So I listen to a lot of music in the car.

- When I'm not driving, I'm busy doing other things. Rarely do I have the opportunity to listen intently to music except when I'm driving. If I listen to music at home or in the office, it's usually just background music because I can't concentrate on the music very well while I'm doing other home-type things. And I can't make myself sit down on the couch and close my eyes to listen to music. Even when I have the time to do it, it never works. I'm always interrupted, or I think of something else I need to do, or whatever. So the car is a much better environment for me in terms of being able to actually hear the music.

- When I am alone in my car, as long as I have the windows rolled up, I can listen to it as loud as I like without disturbing anyone else.

- The car interior might have limitations to its acoustic properties, but those limitations are well-known and you can work around them. A decent car system can easily outdo most home systems in terms of audio quality.

That's why I go to the trouble of doing things like buying empegs and installing subwoofers. Music is an important part of my life, and having the best possible car audio is a critical component of that.

To re-iterate Doug's point: I totally understand people who say that they don't care about how good their car stereo sounds. This is a perfectly valid point of view. But for me, it would be unthinkable to drive every day without having a car audio system that wasn't up to my standards.

A class D mono amp of 350-500 watts would be just about perfect as this sub just absorbs as much power as you can give it........

I just got rid of a Class D mono amp in my car, and couldn't be happier to see it go!

If I were trying to drive a 12" subwoofer and make as much noise as possible, then a Class D would be the way to go. The good thing about a Class D is that it is extremely efficient -- the amount of output you get for a given amount of input power consumption is nearly double that of a class A/B amp (the kind that nearly all of us use). The bad thing about a class D is that this efficiency is gained by very aggressive filtering of the higher frequencies in the pre-amp stage. A typical Class D amplifier will have a maximum high frequency output of 125 Hz. That means all you are going to get is "Blumph Blumph Blumph".

I cross my subs over at nearly 1000 Hz, and by so doing I get a much cleaner, warmer sound that actually has tonality to it. Subwoofers are for more than just drum beats!

That said, there's no reason that you should try to make your stereo sound just like mine does. If you like the sound of a Class D subwoofer amp, then that's the right amp for you.

tanstaafl.

To that, I answer with the following points:

I could not agree more, you said exactly what I was thinking as I was mulling over the last few posts.

Ever since middle school when I became interested in music - I have always had problems with disturbing people with my loud music - my parents, then in college - the freaking RA's, and now I have matured to the point where I rarely play loud music in my apartment. Partially out of respect for my neighbors, and partially out of the point you pointed out, I am usually doing other things at home and don't usually commit the time to sit on my couch and listen to music.

I also found - at least for dampening road noise and improving the output from your door speakers and even in your trunk - that a few sheets of Dynamat go a long long way. I had the opportunity to listen to my old car's speakers with and without Dynamat installed in the doors, and it made a remarkable difference. Note that some newer cars may not need it though, a lot of newer cars have more road noise dampening materials installed in the floors and doors.

Now - either way you look at it, I think something that everyone here can agree with is that the Empeg is essential - having a ton of music and the freedom and ability to bring up anything you want to listen to is awesome, whether you are listening to it on a top dollar system or a plain, bare bones stock system.