We got "Right on Red" as a standard during one of the oil embargoes as a means to save fuel in the 70s.

Too many traffic light controllers are sufficiently old (as are the signals they control) to make arrows difficult, and we wouldn't want green arrows anyhow; "Right on Red" you must yield to other traffic where a "green arrow" (painted or not) would imply no conflicting maneuvers were possible (except possibly a flashing walk sign and thus people crossing in front of you).

Well, for all the green arrows I've seen, they're always timed with the walk signs so that pedestrians aren't supposed to walk while you've got a green arrow. Now, 75% of pedestrians(including myself) pay no attention to the walk signs, so it's a moot point...

Matthew

actually the rest of the modern world doesn't allow you to turn right on reds

Probably because the rest of the modern world believes in roundabouts instead of 5 billion red lights all timed wrong between you and your destination.

(The light timing situation here in Colorado Springs has irritated me quite a bit lately. I'm currently researching exactly what government building I need to visit to file a complaint.)

...only in the US could convenience win over safety. I have no problem with right-on-red in principle, although I'd much rather have arrows - green for go, flashing yellow for yield. But at least the right-on-red could be made fail-safe by disallowing it unless explicitly signed otherwise. There's too many junctions where the "No turn on red" sign is posted obscurely and too easy to miss.

I doesn't make any difference, since people regularly ignore clearly posted no-right-on-red signs. But (possibly) even more annoying are the unnecessary ones, where everything is clearly visible, yet they've decided you can't turn right on red anyway, for no discernible reason.

One thing i noticed in london last time i visited, was before the light turns green, the yellow yield light comes on for a second to let you know the light is about to turn. This is something that my city here in the usa needs to implement!

the yellow yield light comes on for a second to let you know the light is about to turn. This is something that my city here in the usa needs to implement!

What, so people can jump the gun on the green, and slam into all the other people running the red light on the cross street?

exactly

Actually it works pretty well. I quite like it in comparison to NZ where it goes straight from red to green. I think part of the idea here is Germany is that you can turn your motor off while you are stopped at the lights, and the amber before the green gives you enough time to get it going again without holding things up. You are taught to turn the motor off whenever you can to reduce fuel consumption and pollution when you get you drivers licence here. The timing of the lights is usually quite well set up too, and if someone is still sitting in the intersection when you get the amber/green people are *usually* reasonably patient. Well that's my experience.

I think part of the idea here is Germany is that you can turn your motor off while you are stopped at the lights

Except that starting your engine consumes more fuel and produces more pollution than if you'd just let it idle.

Not to mention the additional wear and tear on the engine because starting causes more wear and tear than just running. And then there's the chance of causing a traffic jam because sometimes cars stall when you try to start them......

depends how long you sit there idling really doesn't it, and don't forget that Europeans drive small fuel efficient cars with hightech engine management systems - they don't need one gallon of fuel just to turn the motor over like some of Detroit "iron", they start with almost no effort at all.

The wear and tear thing, well Germany does have an automobile industry to support ;-) and really that isn't a big thing.

And causing traffic jams because you stall the thing, well you shouldn't be on the road if you can't drive should you Actually the worst that usually happens there is that you get tooted at by the car behind you, just like you would if you weren't paying attention and missed the light going green. Can't imagine that actually causing a traffic jam!

depends how long you sit there idling really doesn't it

It would have to be a very very long time, longer than any stoplight I know of.

well think about this, if you're sitting at the lights for 2 minutes, which can happen, and your 2l engine idles at 800 rpm then in that time you have produced 800l of exhaust gas. Even if you have a slightly richer mixture to start the engine you aren't going to produce anywhere that much polution. Don't forget, we're talking about hot starts here, NOT cold starts! That is someting completely different!

That's one of those urban legends i've heard a million times that is in no way true. Every source i've found says that idling for more than 30 seconds causes more pollution than restarting (some say 10 seconds), and the engine wear part is pretty bunk as well IMHO... this is a warm start.

http://www.anr.state.vt.us/reflect/mar1102.htm
http://www.drivecleanacrosstexas.org/help.stm
http://shellne.com/enviro.html#ques8
http://216.239.33.100/search?q=cache:5EwAuZ2ESYIC:prairie.sierraclub.ca/idling/+idling+less+gas+starting+engine&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

there's TONS more....

the car talk boys say more than three minutes, but what the hell do they know. =]

the car talk boys say more than three minutes, but what the hell do they know. =]

Yeah, I was going by their information, stating that you could let your car idle for very long periods of time and it would hardly use any gas at all.

welp, every clean air organization on earth (okay, so i've really only found like 7) and what appears to be everyone else disagrees with them. Anyone find some imperical evidence on this... expirement or something? I've always followed the "shut it off it you're sitting for more than 30 seconds" mantra, with the exception of stop lights.

I've always followed the "shut it off it you're sitting for more than 30 seconds" mantra,

I'm on your side with this one, loren.

When your engine is idling, it is burning gasoline. When it is off, it is not.

With modern fuel management systems, it takes no more fuel to start an engine than it does for the engine to idle -- there is no fuel enrichment with a hot engine; one second the engine is off; the next second it is idling at 800-1000 rpm and nothing unusual is going on regarding fuel consumption during the startup cycle.

As for wearing things out... the only thing getting extra wear is your electric starter. Well, maybe the alternator and battery have to do a bit of extra work, but nothing significant. I think I'd rather wear out my $150 starter than my $4500 engine.

This idling argument is related to the (mostly mis-informed) opinions of people who think they are doing their engine a favor when they start it up in the morning and let it warm up for 20 minutes before they drive away. Better to just get in and go -- assuming moderate use of throttle for at least the first couple of minutes. The engine will warm up much faster that way, and what wears engines out is how many times do the pistons go up and down when the engine is cold and the tolerances and clearances are not optimal. Sooner you get it warmed up, the better -- not to mention the extra wear on the engine just from sitting there idling.

Well, now I've probably gone and started a religious argument... so bring on the heretics and the true believers and get those torches lit.

tanstaafl.

i'll try a hijack update on my OS X box tomorrow and see what happens ....

a what??
oh yeah..

heh, this topic got so far ot i almost forgot why i started it.

>>What, so people can jump the gun on the green, and slam into all the other people running the red light on the cross street?

No - the red and amber come on as the green on the cross street goes to red giving time for the cross traffic to get out the way before you jump the green.

A lot of junctions here do have cameras to get you if you are too early, so usually you just get your revs up to 5,000 or so and wait for the green to dump the clutch

I'm sure it reduces wear and tear on people's hearts. When I've been abroad and the light goes from red to green I'm like, "Whoa" and it's a bit of a shock. In the UK it's all pretty relaxing really.

Just to clarify: Traffic light sequencing in the UK is:

1. Red
2. Red+Orange
3. Green
4. Orange
5. Red

Pedestrian (pelican) crossings are the same, except that step 2 is flashing orange -- meaning that there might still be pedestrians on the crossing.

There is no right (or left, in this case) turn on red.

4. Orange

I though that was ``amber''. (As in ``although my name's not Bamber.'')

There is no right (or left, in this case) turn on red.

Some places in the US you can turn left on red, when turning from a one-way street to another one-way street. At least that's what it said in my drivers' ed handbook. Not around here, though, despite the profusion of one-way streets.

I'm a guy. What do I know about the difference between orange and amber? Two shades of the same colour, no?

Some places in the US you can turn left on red.... Not around here, though

Tell me about it...I got pulled in NC for doing that. I told the officer I had just moved out from CA where it was legal and they let me go with a warning.

I'm so glad I live in an almost-civilized state. If only we had West Virginia's 70mph speed limit to go with out left-on-red-at-one-way-intersections, no silly cell phone bans, etc...

Some places in the US you can turn left on red

Colorado is one of the places. The law is written to indicate a car may always turn at a red if the driver treats it as a stop, and by turning, the driver never crosses a path of travel opposite to theirs.

We have a normal intersection in the northern part of Colorado Springs with two right turn lanes, and turns are allowed from both on red.

If only we had West Virginia's 70mph speed limit

Speed limit on I25 is 75mph most of the way, and State Patrol rarley pulls anyone over unless they are going over 85. Problem recently though has been the huge amount of traffic between Denver and Colorado Springs. It's near impossible to average even 70mph now on that stretch. (Though the 3 lane expansion between Castle Rock and Denver has helped quite a bit)

I can't remeber exactly who did this (but I think it was VW). The had a small car (a Lupo IIRC) with automatic gear switching running on a small and efficient diesel engine (something like 3 litres per 100km). They did three tests:

1. Let the engine idle at stops.
2. Automatically stop the engine when the car stood. Restarts where also automatic on first touch of the gas pedal.
3. Automatically stop the engine when slowing down (actually whenever the brake was used), restart automatically when releasing the brake (if not standing) or when gas pedal is touched.
   

Restarting the engine took only about 0.5 seconds. Well the outcome was like this: Stopping the engine whenever the car stood (which includes traffic lights, ordering at drive-throughs, traffic jam etc.) caused the amount of fuel need to drop by about 10% (almost completely independent of the driver). Stopping the engine whenever the brake was used dropped it by another 5-10%, depending on the driver.
Most experts at that time agreed that higher consumption engines might have even bigger savings. IMO its a pity that technology didn't make it into everydays cars.

cu,
sven

Melbourne has two dumb traffic laws.
1. turn left on red
2. turn right from left lane. although this is being phased out i believe.

We drive on the correct (left) side of the road so turn left on red is possible. Due to the trams in the middle of many roads in Melbourne you must get into the left lane so you don't clog up the tramway. Many situations that let you do this now have signs saying you cant.

It is a silly place