I was just wondering what people think of SONICblue's ReplayTV receiver/recorder. I was just checking it out vs. TiVo.

It appears to me that the ReplayTV has almost ALL of the features I could want, while the TiVo is rather lacking. The only thing I might wish for on the ReplayTV is the ability to record 2 shows at once... but I don't consider it a major point.

In particular, if anyone on the board actually owns one or has had some experience with one, I'd like your thoughts on it.

Or, if I'm way off and TiVo is the better unit, despite having less features (the ReplayTV's ethernet features almost made me drool), please let me know.

I own two older RePlay units, and have co-workers that own Tivos.

The Replay's price includes the lifetime subscription service, the Tivo's service costs another 200 dollars.

Both units only have one tuner, and as such can only record one thing at a time. I believe MS has a combo
satellite unit/Tivo that can record two things at once, but only from the satellite service. (I may be slightly off but I do know there's some kind of limitation on the two recording thing that isn't advertised.)

The RePlay natively has the 30 second skip button. This is a killer feature that I really, really love. Four hits of that button and you're back to watching your show, no commercials. The next generation (of both, I think) features a total commercial skip feature that is automatic. (They're being sued over this, of course.)

The Tivo is actually a Linux box. You can thus hack it and tweak it to your heart's content. I've seen people run web servers, add ethernet cards, and do all kinds of funky things with it. The RePlay uses an embedded OS (non-linux, though I forget the name), and as such isn't as easily hackable. (Though you may want to check the AVS forums to see if there is anything new, I haven't done that in a while.)

The interesting thing about the Tivo is that it takes the unused space and will record things that it thinks you may like. These recording decisions are based on what you already have scheduled to record. I know my co-workers have been very pleasantly surprised with some of the recordings. And if it nabs something you don't want, you can just delete it (Tivo only uses your unused/reserved space for this kind of recording.)

Also, the Tivo has season passes, where you can tell it "Grab all the Simpsons", then give different time slots higher or lower priority, and you can tell it to either record copies of the same show or not. (The Simpsons is a good example, as many Fox networks will show it 2+ times a day, and then show the new shows Sunday night. You can set it up to grab only the Sunday night ones if you like.)

The RePlay's not quite as smart, and it doesn't have a priority system per se. It does have four different priorities, but those are based on how you schedule the recordings. You cannot tell it "Record Show A and Show B, and if the two conflict, record Show B." It's final decision logic, if the two are set up exactly the same, is to go with the one that sorts first alphabetically.

Both units allow you to crack them open and change the HD out for a larger one and also add a second one, though I think the Tivo's internals are a little nicer for this (it comes with a second rack, the RePlay only comes with the extra space for one). But, be aware that the RePlay has a memory limit which limits you to 150 gigs of space.

Personally, if I were in the market for a new one (which I will be, soon as I pay off the money I'll spend on Patrick's Tuner *grin*), I would wait until the Moxi comes out early next year. The Moxi is a Linux-based multi-media center. It can record FOUR things at once, and also supports general audio/video/pictures/mp3's/etc. It is truly a multi-media center, and includes a base unit for your main stereo/entertainment center, and then has satellite stations which the base unit can broadcast to. Thus, you can record your shows from the main unit and broadcast them to your other TVs later.

I think the Moxi may even have DVD recording capabilities, but I am not quite sure (it's very late at the moment). I also think Panasonic is coming out with a DVD burning PVR as well, but I know nothing of it's tuner capabilities.
(I think the Moxi might also be a digital cable tuner, which would explain why it's advertised as "coming out via your local digital cable providers Winter of 2003".)

I'd suggest digging a little more about the Moxi. Microsoft seems to be already putting out the word about their competitor to the Moxi, but somehow I think the Moxi/Linux product's just going to be better.

- Rick

It appears that the coolr things you can toss in or turn on in your TiVo are natively in the ReplayTV. Plus, they seem to have paid the patent royalties for the tv "grid" instead of the modified but royalty free format TiVo has.

On the other hand, as you note, the hackability makes the TiVo rather interesting to me, for many of the same reasons the empeg is.

And:
The interesting thing about the Tivo is that it takes the unused space and will record things that it thinks you may like.

I saw a comparsion of TiVo and ReplayTV where they were snarky and pointed out "we don't guess what you like, instead you pick from categories of stuff you like". Where, I presume, they put stuff in the categories, meaning they guess what I think those categories mean. 6. half dozen.

The Moxi might be interesting enough to convince me to get one, but I already have a TiVo with lifetime (the $200 plus the $100 I paid for the thing, combined with having it for almost a year, means the Replay almost certainly couldn't compete on price anyway, since it's too late), and my TiVo won't be hand-me-downed to my parents, since I also already got them one, also with lifetime ($129, theirs is a 30hr, mine is a 20, upgraded to 100-something)

I think it depends what you want. If you want to play at all a series 1 TiVo is the right choice. (Find one used). The Replay has some more interesting features as shipped. The other thing is since you need to decide what you like, try to play with both, find friends that have them.

I'm not sad I went with the TiVo, or that I have a pile of spares to play with. I am sad that I don't have time to "hack" a TiVo and start doing mpeg extraction, or time to do anything with the extracted video. If someone put something free in my lap I might change my mind but I have to go with the TiVo as my recommendation.

I don't expect anything free, or to be willing to spend any money until something like a Moxi hits the market, either, actually.

The only thing I might wish for on the ReplayTV is the ability to record 2 shows at once... but I don't consider it a major point.

Yet... I sometimes find I need three shows simultaneously recording, but luckily some of the shows repeat at later times on channels like Comedy Central.

I've considered the ReplayTV with the ethernet but I'm happy as a pig in slop with my DirecTivo and will be hacking in ethernet one day...

This is an often-discussed topic at the AVS forum. Here is the Replay forum. There are many threads that compare the current features of replay and tivo -you will just have to ignore some flames on which is better.

Some features in the current Replays not previously mentioned in this thread:

-Replays have an Ethernet jack, so you can easily transfer/archive/burn to disc recorded shows.
-Replays have automatic commercial advance. It will automatically skip commercials (*no* remote clicks required).
-Replays can send shows over the Internet. Planetreplay.com aggregates and index of content from hundreds of replay devices. Its simple to email others requesting shows that may not even be broadcast in your area.
-With multiple replaytvs in one house, the content of all the replays are shown in each replays guide. You can play back shows real time that were recorded on other replaytvs.

The only thing I might wish for on the ReplayTV is the ability to record 2 shows at once... but I don't consider it a major point.

Yet... I sometimes find I need three shows simultaneously recording, but luckily some of the shows repeat at later times on channels like Comedy Central.

Angel
Alias
Malcolm in the Middle

Smallville
24
Frasier

Well, I've done some basic research on both the ReplayTV and the TiVo units. It sounds like the basic case is the ReplayTV has more of the features I'd want out of the box, whereas with TiVo I'd have to do some learning in order to roll up my sleeves and add what I want.

From the basic description of the Moxi by Rick, it doesn't really sound like something I'd want to spring for, especially if DVD burning is a major selling point. My general opinion on component burners of any kind, for a home entertainment system, is "no," because a drive version of it will always be faster, cheaper, and more reliable.

One more thing is that recording time on the unit may not be an issue. Right now I constantly record over the same VHS tape set to LP. This gets me about 5¾ hours of recording time. I have to make sure to either watch it or switch out the tape every other day. And some weeks are very busy. So even 20 hours recording time would probably be a real luxury.

The other reason space may not be an issue is because I'm planning to build a PC with which I can archive my favorite shows to either VideoCD or DVD. Obviously this would be a little easier with the ReplayTV out of the box. But from what I'm reading, one could rather easily modify a TiVo unit, much like the empeg, to get whatever feature he/she wanted, short of the 2nd tuner. It is true that a few of the shows I watch get repeated at a later time or a later day, so I don't think I'm going to consider the 2nd tuner an issue.

Also, I don't believe either unit comes with a lifetime subscription built into its price, but rather both seem to have it as an option; at least from what I read on their sites. So, with all this in mind, I am as of yet undecided. But, hackability not being something I may want to attempt (not the most computer savvy; just have a healthy interest), I think I may be leaning toward the ReplayTV.

This is precisely why I like Replaytv - I have a weekly replaytv swap over the internet of law and order / alias because of a conflict.

BTW - the same episode of Smallville is on Tuesdays and Sundays (at least in my market).

The 5000 is a great product - I would have one (instead of Tivo) if we had UK coverage! Of course I would say that

Rob

From the basic description of the Moxi by Rick, it doesn't really sound like something I'd want to spring for, especially if DVD burning is a major selling point. My general opinion on component burners of any kind, for a home entertainment system, is "no," because a drive version of it will always be faster, cheaper, and more reliable.

Only if you're willing to run Windows. I'm not, and so no video DVD mastering for me.

Only if you're willing to run Windows.

Well isn't that a given? I have my gripes with Microsoft just like anyone else may. Namely, I'm rather pissed about a title for the XBox currently in development that was in the works for GameCube, until MS came in, bought the company, killed their exclusivity license with Nintendo, and said "you're going to make that game for us now". >:(

But as far as my PC goes... Win2K gives me no problems, and I can do what I want to do. So I live with it.

Well isn't that a given?

Obviously not. I don't.

I wasn't saying it was a given that people run Windows. I was referring to your exact statement. People can do [insert task] "only if they run Windows." Or if you can do it in another OS, the software isn't as good.

In reply to:

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Or, if I'm way off and TiVo is the better unit, despite having less features (the ReplayTV's ethernet features almost made me drool), please let me know.

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You're way off.

Replay has some showy features that are of value, but the heart of a DVR is it's scheduling engine and TiVo's is much better.

I've owned both and I could explain the differences but someone else already has. Replay's scheduling paradigm is frustrating and requires constant maintenance if you record a lot of programs with potential overlaps. And if you have DirecTV then it's a no brainer. The dual tuners in the DirecTiVo are far and away more important than any other feature.

-Dylan

Actually, there are many things I can do in another OS much better than Windows, but this shouldn't devolve into a religious debate, so I'll go away now

Replay's scheduling paradigm is frustrating and requires constant maintenance if you record a lot of programs with potential overlaps.
If I'm not mistaken, the 5000 series of the ReplayTV now includes a conflict resolver to warn you of overlapping programs scheduled for recording, as well as the ability to record a few minutes prior to the start and after the end of the program. I find that very useful, because not everyone's clocks match up.

And if you have DirecTV then it's a no brainer.
I haven't even looked at DirecTV yet. I'm just looking for opinions on the DVR units themselves. And as I and others have mentioned earlier, many popular shows have repeat days or times, so a 2nd tuner isn't really important.

I still think I'm leaning towards the ReplayTV at the moment.

... religious debate...
I have no religion.

I have no religion.

Well, I have a TiVo Guy doll and a Colonel Sanders bobble head doll on top of my TV. So, I guess they are my religious figures. TiVo is the way to go.... and get some Crispy Strips while you're at it!

If only empeg had a mascot.....

In reply to:

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And as I and others have mentioned earlier, many popular shows have repeat days or times, so a 2nd tuner isn't really important.

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Trust me. A second tuner is important. I can assure you that you will find yourself wanting it. Listen to the people that own DVR's.

You sound like you've made up your mind so good luck. I do encourage you to read the entire comparison that I linked. That comes from a user who knows from experience what is important in a DVR. (At least read sections 12-15. That's the core functionality and the type of thing you can't glean from feature lists.)

-Dylan

Namely, I'm rather pissed about a title for the XBox currently in development that was in the works for GameCube, until MS came in, bought the company, killed their exclusivity license with Nintendo, and said "you're going to make that game for us now". >:(

Let me guess, Kameo: Elements of Power by Rareware? Don'y worry, it looks like it's veered off course from the early previews I saw of it, much like Halo did from what I saw at E3 2000. I'm sure they will release it as a only a shimmer of what it was capable of becoming.

(Yes, I'm bitter about this one too )

I sometimes find I need three shows simultaneously recording

Good god, I haven't used my VRC to tape a show in years. I don't even have cable. I do watch some TV but I really don't care if I miss a show or not.

Quote:
From the basic description of the Moxi by Rick, it doesn't really sound like something I'd want to spring for, especially if DVD burning is a major selling point. My general opinion on component burners of any kind, for a home entertainment system, is "no," because a drive version of it will always be faster, cheaper, and more reliable.
End Qote

I must apologize. I did a little digging and found the Moxi on Digeo's site. (I think they bought it up a while ago.) The Moxi Media Center does not appear to have a burner. It does list an option cd/dvd drive, but no burner.

The selling point for me isn't a burner anyways, it's the multple tuners. I have several prime time slots where I want to record multiple things at once (Sunday, Tuesday, and Thursday nights). This is also where the new RePlays look very tempting, but I believe the Tivo Series 2 has the same kind of ethernet NIC features, but an initial glance at their website doesn't show it.

Now, if the burner is something you want, try taking a look at Panasonic's new PVR, at http://www.panasonic.com/recorder. Personally I'm not interested in saving old shows as much as I am about watching things that air at the same time. I can count on one hand the number of very old shows I've kept around, and I have a 120 hr RePlay box. I'd definitely take a 2nd tuner over a dvd burner. (And I record at the lowest quality.)

I've been to the AVS Forum (mentioned below) a few times and have been impressed (re: overwhelmed) by the amount of information there. It's definitely the place to go if you want to spend a few hours digging through some good material. My devout Tivo-loving co-workers highly recommended it to me.

- Rick

Good god, I haven't used my VRC to tape a show in years. I don't even have cable. I do watch some TV but I really don't care if I miss a show or not.

Laura

I've found that the Tivo/Replay features are some that can only truly be appreciated once they are owned. (Kind of... like the Empeg?) I had several friends that didn't get it until I sat them down and showed them how to program in shows to record, the search functions and pre-generated lists of shows/movies/etc for finding obscure stuff that they would have watched had they known about, etc. (I'm not insinuating that you "don't get it", Laura! I'm just citing other people I know who have said similiar comments in the past.)

For example, I record The O'Rielly Factor every night. I don't necessarily get to watch it every day, and I only keep one show. If I miss it, no big deal. But the last aired show is *always* within reach if I want to watch it. That's a key feature, basically having any show you want at the touch of a button. That's basically Video On Demand, but the difference is that you're managing the repository yourself, rather than having to deal with a service that has had to be dumbed down and generalized for many users.

Tivos and RePlays do not themselves lead to more TV watching IMHO, they lead to signifigantly more efficient TV watching. You cannot beat reducing an hour show into 46 minutes, or a 30 minute show in 23 minutes.

Then again, some people just don't want to watch that much TV. Maybe they'd rather listen to their MP3 collection on their Empegs. I'm starting to get a renewed appreciation for the music I own as I load up the new Empeg as I did when I first got the RePlay.

- Rick
- Only one stock 10GB Empeg (I just got it last week and I LOVE it!)

I listen to music a lot more now with the empeg than I ever did before. Course I do have a qualty system now to listen to it on, my old POS system went out in the trash.

I started watching quite a bit of TV when the new shows first came out but I find myself reading a good book more and more now. I do "get" what they can do for you but to me it would be a waste.

I do watch some TV but I really don't care if I miss a show or not.

Heh. I am hooked on Survivor. TiVo feeds my addiction. I am not proud that I *must* see the show, but what the heck... It's humorous.

I like the strategy these people try thinking that they are all cunning and stealthy knowing how the game was played in the previous Survivor games. Like last night, they all assumed the tribes were merging when it became 10 people left, because it was that way the last 4 times. The word "merge" was never spoken by the host. They shared all kinds of info because it became "two tribes sharing one beach," as the host said. I yelled at the TV for 30 minutes last night that they aren't merged...

Kameo: Elements of Power by Rareware?
You're half right. Rareware yes; Kameo no. Perfect Dark is the game. But I'm actually still quite obsessed with the original. For the moment.

A second tuner is important. I can assure you that you will find yourself wanting it.
I can see it as a nice feature. And there may come a day that I have two shows that conflict and neither of them are being re-aired within the next week. But I see that as a rare enough occurrence that I may not want to go for the DirecTV TiVo. I'm pretty sure I know what I want.

As of yet, though, I'm still undecided.

Now, if the burner is something you want...
As I mentioned before, a component DVD or CD burner for the home entertainment system is something I don't think I would ever consider. My mention of that was purely in reference to what may or may not be in my new PC, when I build it.

Edit:
I believe the Tivo Series 2 has the same kind of ethernet NIC features...
It doesn't. This page has a pic of the back of the of the unit.

Yeah, you're right - I'd love a ReplayTV that worked with non-NTSC video sources [e.g. PAL] like we have in the UK or AUS/NZ.

However, the ReplayTV 5000 (and the 4500 I think too) now requires a subscription to work - just like the Tivo does.

I have two Tivos - and when you find you need to record multiple shows at once, you just need to buy another one, they are pretty cheap, its a pity the subs can't be shared!

Okay, it doesn't have a NIC out of the box, but he doesn't seem to be adverse to hacking.. Adding a NIC to a Series 2 consists of buying a USB dongle, plugging it in, and telling the TiVo to use it (make your dialing prefix ",#401"). I'd hardly even call that hacking, your grandmother could do it. Adding one to a Series 1 requires opening the case and plugging a special NIC on to the edge connector on the board.

TiVo is a lot more Empeg-like.. with a bit of tweaking to get a shell* you can add all kinds of third party software, or write your own. Replay apparently has some sort of web interface, but TiVo's is open source, tweakable, plugins, etc. You can do TiVo -> Computer archiving and then restore it back to another TiVo (or the same one obviously), instant show sharing and saving old Simpsons eps for as long as you can afford the HDs for.

*: Okay, you can't do on Series2s, yet.. there's firmware/boot loader protection that hasn't quite been hacked.