I drove a Land Rover Discovery for a while. It was a very nice car, and very well built (it was made by BMW at the time).

That's a damning indictment on the build quality of American cars then. The Disco and it's sister the Freelander is appalling put together compared to most European and Japanese cars. Bit are always falling off them and the electrics failing.

Some of the design is truely awful as well, I never did work out how to change the rear light bulbs on the one I drove, the last two "seats" (you won't catch me sitting in them) completely blocked the access to the panel where the bulbs were.

The Disco has never really "made" by BMW either. Sure BMW owned them for a time, but they never really had and significant impact of the production of the existing models, which is why Rover/LandRover basically went bust in the end.

The Range Rover however is a different story, it was designed in Germany by BMW, which is why Ford actually had to pay BMW to take LandRover off of their hands. A stark comparison to the rest of Rover where BMW had to pay the new owners hundreds of millions of dollars to take on the remains.

Rover got the last laugh though, as six months after BMW handed over ownership they suddenly managed to magic three new MG models out of thin air. Someone at Rover had clearly been busy working on something in their spare time without telling BMW...

Those turns at 40mph felt like I'd tip over

You didn't have the model with the trick air suspension then. The air suspension was very clever, so much so that I have seen a Disco with it fitted navigate a tight slalom course at 40mph without hardly leaning on the turns at all.

Now, as far as running out of oil goes, I don't think it'll happen anytime soon, or prices would go up since there would be a diminishing supply, and usage would drop.

That, sadly, would require some link between 10- to 20-year forethought and today's oil pricing

Good point.


Advocating the guzzling of gas because it's affordable ("I can so I will") seems no different from advocating that the largest kid in the school can beat up the others because Nature has afforded him the strength to do so, or that the largest military power in the world can beat up the others because Manifest Destiny has given it the strength to do so.

Yeah, but beating up a kid or invading a country is going to hurt someone. Hurting someone just because you can or just for fun is wrong. Puchasing a commodity, like oil, is a little different. Our technology and wealth of our economy would be a little weaker if that millionaire hadn't invented that new product or provided that service or whatever for the consumers. So when he wants to burn a few barrels of oil, I'd say he deserves it.

But I guess it's more of I haven't been convinced that there is an urgent shortage of oil. Some people say we're gonna run out any day now and some say we've only used up 15%, but I don't think anyone really knows for sure. If I was a millionaire and it was apparent that there wasn't much oil left, and that oil was needed for more important things than yachts, then I'd think it would be right to curb my usage for the sake of everyone. It would be like if your town was short on electrical power and there were blackouts, then it would only make sense to not waste energy. But the way things look here right now, if there's no shortage of electricity and no shortage of cash (I wish), you might as well play the x-box and empeg and computer all day long.

Corporations have billions of dollars invested in oil-dependant machines, automobiles, planes, etc. When they start getting worried, I'll start getting worried. Combine that with the fact that there are fuels other than oil, and I am not very concerned. If we did suddenly run out in the next couple decades, I could see us all buying alcohol conversion kits for our internal combustion engines.

Morally, I don't think you should waste what you have. Legally, I think a person should be able to waste his own belongings all he wants; unless those belongings are a vital part of the community (like oil, electricity, or water) and it is in short supply. So yes, if oil becomes rare and our way of life depends on it (in other words, there aren't any reasonable and feasible alternatives to the oil), then we should all conserve it for the sake of everyone, no matter how rich you are, because in that situation the oil becomes priceless.

It also has just as good an engine as most SUVs (V6 200hp VTech).

I can carry a larger bulk item than almost any SUV with a lot more ease. Need to carry an EIGHT FOOT couch? I've done that

Good point, but just be careful when you tow a 2000 lb boat with it, or it probably won't be long until your at the transmission shop.

I'm not trying to diminish the usefulness of a minivan. I'm just pointing out that they aren't as rugged as a truck or full-size van. I would say the same thing about the whole array of SUV's that are built on car chassis'.

I don't think one needs to be a communist to believe it to be immoral to consume a larger than necessary proportion of a scarce resource.

And if philanthropy isn't your bag, how about selfishness? Would you rather guzzle gas for the next twenty years of your life and then walk, or sip gas for the next forty?

Yeah, I agree. See my previous post.

Our technology and wealth of our economy would be a little weaker if that millionaire hadn't invented that new product or provided that service or whatever for the consumers. So when he wants to burn a few barrels of oil, I'd say he deserves it.

Oh, I'm not saying he shouldn't have become a millionaire -- that really would be China time. I'm just saying that, because his economic clout is much larger than ours, he shouldn't be careless about his impact on the world -- indeed, if anything, he should be more careful.

But I guess it's more of I haven't been convinced that there is an urgent shortage of oil. Some people say we're gonna run out any day now and some say we've only used up 15%, but I don't think anyone really knows for sure.

True, no-one knows for sure, though I'd like to see where the study that produced the 15% figure got its funding. But if there's no shortage of oil, why are your compatriots and mine being sent to fight a war over control of it?

Corporations have billions of dollars invested in oil-dependant machines, automobiles, planes, etc. When they start getting worried, I'll start getting worried.

The same timescale issue applies here, I think: as a 31-year-old, an oil shortage in 44 years' time is very much on my radar. 44 years is an order of magnitude longer than what most corporations would call the ultra long term. Or, more shortly: humans have to worry about stuff on much longer timescales than corporations (or politicians).

So yes, if oil becomes rare and our way of life depends on it (in other words, there aren't any reasonable and feasible alternatives to the oil), then we should all conserve it for the sake of everyone, no matter how rich you are, because in that situation the oil becomes priceless.

I think we're sort of on the same page on this one, I'm just a bit more wary of assuming that everything's going to be okay just because it looks okay right now.

Peter

Good point, but just be careful when you tow a 2000 lb boat with it, or it probably won't be long until your at the transmission shop

Exactly. I listed one of the pros of an SUV as towing. But that was one of two (off-road being the other one). Other than that, I don't really see an advantages over other options.

I also forgot a major factor in my last post. All the advantages I listed for my minivan are, IMO, backed up by the fact that it is far cheaper than an SUV. I consider that a big selling point. I can't see paying $40K for a mid-range Expedition, when my minivan with nav system cost far less than that.

The figures over at the US Department Of Energy make some interesting reading.

Looking at the graphs it looks like oil consumption is surprisingly static:



Until that is you drill down (damn, no pun intended) into Asia and you see that China, India and South Korea have only just started using significant levels of oil, but are growing fast:



This graph is enlightening as well:

Wow, so that means a little over 3 billion gallons get used every day? That's pretty scary.

I wonder how many of these folks that came up with this clever little add campain use oil in their homes? Or drive boats? Boats consume a heck of a lot more gas then SUV's not to mention the percentage of americans that heat their homes with oil.... Does this mean those folks support terrorism as well?

Actually, my biggest complaint about my explorer is the lack of cargo space. It is 6'6" by 3'9" or so. If it was about 3 inches wider, it would make a heck of a lot more sense. Ditto if it was longer. I can still fit 4' x 8' plywood in there, but it isn't a lot of fun. My next vehicle will be at least 4' wide in the back.

And I really, really, can't fit myself inside most small cars (and even some SUVs) without discomfort. I'm 6'3" and 165 lbs. Most small vehiclesdon't have anywhere near enough headroom and have seats designed for shorter people, which causes lower back pain over time. Another problem is in the legroom. A lot of them do decently in the amount of horizontal space, but your feet are still up high, barely below your waist and it is impossible to stretch, causing your knees to stick way up in the air. After about 15 minutes, this causes extreme pain, whereas in most SUVs, I can ride for several hours without discomfort.

My reasons for owning an SUV:
1. Comfort
2. Interior Storage ability (about every 2 weeks)
3. Being up high above the crowd
4. Towing ability (about every 2 weeks)
5. Knowing that if I get in an accident, it is the other guy's car that gets crumpled.
6. Offroading ability. I go totally off-roading about once a year, although it is nice to be able to jump curbs and other obstacles much more often.

And, yes, I have been in a couple accidents with smaller vehicles. A "lady" in a brand-new mustang rear-ended me once. Her car crumpled like an accordian, which wasn't helped by the student driver in a pickup who rear-ended her in turn. My bumper was slightly dented.

I have read several of the "studies" that claim that large vehicles are unsafe for their occupants. The ones I have perused failed to use even one statistic in an appropriate place. They sounded like middle-school essays. I imagine that large/large car accidents have roughly the same surviveability as small/small car accidents. It is when you get into the large/small car accidents that things get out of whack.

-Biscuits

Knowing that if I get in an accident, it is the other guy's car that gets crumpled.

To me, this translates to:

Knowing that if I get in an accident, the other guy is more likely to die.

which I'm not comfortable with. I know you meant:

Knowing that if I get in an accident, I'm less likely to die.

(the statistics for which we have debated and with which you disagree), but I can't get the other one out of my head.

Yeah, I really don't want anybody to die. If another SUV hits you, do you want to be in:
1) another SUV
2) a miata

Anyway, I'm sorry if I wrote that in a way which was unclear. I've taken precision handling courses to make myself a better driver. I think something similar should be required for ALL U.S. drivers. Driver's Ed is a joke. My instruction consisted of sitting in a classroom learning to identify the difference between a STOP and YIELD sign. Then, my instructor has me drive through Atlanta rush-hour traffic to a darkened parking lot. At that time, I probably had about 1 hour behind the wheel. When we arrived, he exchanged cash with a provocatively-dressed woman for a brown paper bag, and then we drove back.

Coincidentally, I find that driving in heavy Atlanta traffic seems to be safer than driving in milder traffic in many other towns (Chattanooga, Knoxville, Athens, Jacksonville, etc. etc.) The drivers are much less likely to cut you off without looking, take a left turn out of the right lane, etc.

-Biscuits

Like I said, I knew what you meant, but I have a hard time reconciling the two possible meanings of that thought process.

I think something similar [to a precision handling course] should be required for ALL U.S. drivers. Driver's Ed is a joke.

Amen.

And, more to the point, driver license exams are a joke. My written test, for example, had more questions about using a fake ID to purchase alcohol under age than all of the rest of the questions combined. I think that this is why people don't know how to merge, how to use an entrance/exit ramp, to stay in the right-hand lanes unless passing, not to burn high beams all the time, who has right-of-way at stop signs, etc., ad nauseum. But, for God's sake, don't use a fake ID!!! And make sure you know what a yellow pennant-shaped sign without words means, despite the fact that all such signs in real life will say ``No Passing Zone'' on them.

Sorry to chip in so far into the topic but I've just seen a Mitsubishi advert showing people enjoying their busses, sorry 'Sports Utilitiy Vehicles' in various extreme places (middle of a lake, on a ski slope). I think the advert would be more accurate if these vehicles were shown parked in the middle of rush hour traffic with ONE PERSON INSIDE IT! This is where I seem to see the most of them.

Now, my problem is not with people who actually use these vehicles to haul tonnes of stuff or drive up sides of hills and such. My problem is with people who think off-roading is simply driving up the kerb.

I tend to think any vehicle with one commuter is a waste but that's how most people commute atleast where I live. It's just the way things are. SUVs are only one branch on a very wasteful tree. It's only a matter of degree. I don't use my SUV for much off-roading (occasional towing / camping / roadtrips with several people etc.) but its a joy to drive. I still don't understand why it's specifically SUVs people tend to notice when vehicles in every class are doing the same things.

"Upgrade from a Ford Escape? What size kids were you intending to have, that wouldn't fit in one of those?"

Well, we are going to have at least two children. Since the Escape sits four comfortaby (the two of us and our two children) if we want to take any of their friends with us there won't be room. On top of this, we are planning on adopting children as well, so that will push us well beyond the limits of the Escape. It's a perfect car for now, and probably even the next few years. But there will come a point when seating four isn't going to be enough.

In reply to:

---

I still don't understand why it's specifically SUVs people tend to notice when vehicles in every class are doing the same things.

---

I agree, suppose it's because the only thing on the road at that time in the morning that's bigger is a bus . Surely parking the really big ones must be a problem in some multistory car parks, in the UK at least...

I suppose it is more noticeable especially with some psycho bearing down behind you like something out of a Stephen King Movie. Actually I park in a parking garage at work no problem but driving in some parking garages with "just enough" clearance makes me sweat and keeps me looking up at the cealing

Yes, seen a guy scrape the roof of his new vehicle, the air turned rather blue after that!

Surely parking the really big ones must be a problem in some multistory car parks, in the UK at least...

You won't see any of the really big SUVs in the UK (except the odd HumVee that some nutter has imported). In the US (Seattle at least), every sixth car on the road is larger than a BMW X5 or a Range Rover. It's hard to believe how big they are until you see them next to a "normal" size car.

Parking spaces in the US are bigger that in the UK as well and they have spaces marked as "compact" which are about as big as the ones here.

I was over in New York last year and couldn't believe the size of a Ford truck parked outside the airport, unbelieveable! There was a wonderful burble as it left though.

I did see a HumVee trying to negotiate traffic in Manchester just after chrimbo, rather amusing when it could easily straddle two lanes!

I used to drive through Chelsea every day. There was a HumVee there that some guy actually used for his daily commute.

I would often come round a corner in a narrow street, with parked cars each side, to find the HumVee doing a three point turn, just to negociate the 90 degree turn at the end of the road. Being in my MX5 I was almost convinced I could just drive underneath him...

I do some work at a private school and its not unusual to see 4 or 5 hummers lined up waitin for their kids.
What really scares me are the ones in the parking lot i know some 16 year old is gunna drive home.

My reasons for owning an SUV:
1. Comfort
2. Interior Storage ability (about every 2 weeks)
3. Being up high above the crowd
4. Towing ability (about every 2 weeks)
5. Knowing that if I get in an accident, it is the other guy's car that gets crumpled.
6. Offroading ability. I go totally off-roading about once a year, although it is nice to be able to jump curbs and other obstacles much more often.

Here I will compare to my minivan:
1. My Odyssey would have no problem fitting you in. It has about 5 inches of room above my head (I'm about 6'), and that's with the seat all the way up.
2. I've talked about storage. Can't beat my Honda there.
3. I tend to think that I'm higher than other vehicles, but I don't think I obstruct too many views. Let's just say that I get pissed off when I'm behind an SUV, so I can't be all that tall. Can anyone with a normal-height sedan tell me what it's like behind an Odyssey?
4. Towing is an issue. That's one of the things that an SUV is good for. If you tow, then I'm glad you're one of the 4 people who use their SUVs for what they're for. (Although it depends on what you're towing. I can't find the numbers for my vehicle yet, but I know it's not too bad)
5. I'm not a fan of that argument either.
6. See #4

I still don't find any advantage to SUVs, but I'm glad you're using yours rather than hauling your kids around.

Well, we are going to have at least two children

That's great! I'm happy for you! I think it's wonderfull that you're considering adoption!

Get a minivan.

Why pay a premium to haul your kids around in a smaller car and pay more for gas? It just doesn't make sense. Do you really think that just because you're upgrading the size of your SUV, it's going to be roomier? They just aren't! I test drove the Ford Explorer. It was pretty nice, but small!

I hope it's not the image factor, because you'll be paying about $8K plus gas money for an image.


I'd also like to take the time to mention one of my favorite Edmunds car reviews.
"RuPaul's sexual preference is less vague than the Excursion's recirculating ball-type steering gear"
-that just sounds bad

[The Ford Explorer] was pretty nice, but small!
The Ford Explorer and Escape are pretty close in interior space.


My dad's Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme convertable is actually longer than my Explorer, not to mention my mother's old minivan.

Speaking of the Ford Escape, what do you think of it? I drove a rental one in Jacksonville for a month. The air conditioner couldn't keep up with the heat. Also, the seatbelts kept getting stuck and the passenger door wouldn't open for a full day. The electrical system was crap and things kept breaking on us.

I'm guessing we were just driving a real lemon, but I was wondering whether other people are happy with theirs. One of my sister's friends got one for xmas and so far seems really happy with it.

-Biscuits

4. Towing is an issue. That's one of the things that an SUV is good for.

One of my pet peeves, there... countless people buy gigantic trucks to drive on a daily basis because "...they need something big enough to tow their boat to the lake." Of course, they only do this three times a year, but the thought of renting a suitable vehicle for those three trips never enters their mind. Instead they drive some 11 mile per gallon guzzler to the grocery store all year long, but by God they can sure as hell can tow that boat!

Of course, who am I to talk? My ShoWagon is not exactly the poster child for reasonable vehicles, although it will get upwards of 28 MPG at speed on the highway.

tanstaafl.

Are we going to run out of oil anytime soon? Certainly very soon if we stop doing exploration. And supply will probably start going way down in the next 10 to 20 years if we do not improve our exploration and oil-extraction techniques. As I understand it, though, this has been forecast repeatedly for the last 50 years or so. However, techniques continue to get better and we have still barely scratched the surface of the available oil. Less than 1% of the world's oil has been extracted. Right now, oil is NOT a scarce resource, nor is it likely to be for some time. When it finally does start to become more scarce, as the price rises, alternative fuels will suddenly become economical, so we really shouldn't have to worry about that.

Any current argument about oil being a scarce resource is bunk. This invalidates most of the Detroit Project arguments. The arguments about pollution hold more validity, but for some reason, I don't hear them argued more often.

As of 1997, there are 7 million "large trucks" registered and 67 million "light trucks" registered (and 124 million cars, incidentally)
and
but as of 1997, large trucks account for only 12% of fatalities

So... large trucks account for 3.7% of the vehicles, but cause only 12% of the fatalities? This is a good thing?

tanstaafl.

Large trucks are on the road 10x as much. How much does the average person drive a day? How about the average truck driver?