... the dropping prices of hardware. I strongly suspect that we could put together a company with a world-class engineering team that could revitalize empeg production.

There are many diverse talents on this BBS. I am a mechanical engineer who has been in the sales side of technology for over 10 years. I have negotiated reseller and licensing agreements and run sales and distribution in North America. I have colleagues who have worked for me running Europe and Asia/Pac sales and distribution. I have also been involved with venture capital due dilligence and am *somewhat* familiar with raising money as a small company.

On this board are very talented engineers who could take the fantastic empeg design and tweak it for even greater ease of manufacture and assembly. Overseas outsourcing alternatives exist for manufacture.

I've been thinking about this for a while now. It seems to me that it may be possible to *license* the empeg player software from SonicBlue and have them as the OEM software supplier for a startup manufacturing and distribution company.

As you all know, technology has gotten significantly less expensive. Laptop drives continue to drop in price, and it may be possible to manufacture an "empeg clone" for significantly less than it was just 2 years ago. The empeg is still head and shoulders above any other offering. I think we all agree that it was the high price coupled with its early entry into the market that kept empeg from becoming a household word. A lot has changed. 3 years ago, mp3s were still mostly for geeks (like me!). I am continually amazed by the number of business people on airplanes with their iPods. The mainstream market is beginning to embrace mp3.

If the design team stuck with hardware that was completely compatible with existing software, and *if* a business relationship could be created that provided for the licensing of that software, well, it just might be possible...

The process would involve understanding unit costs and cost breaks, writing a business plan, and getting it funded. Not easy and it is a lot of work.

Comments?

Jim

with all due respect to your experience and expertise, the first question that comes to mind is how you think you'd be able to execute this business plan better than sonicblue has themselves. how are you, as a startup, going to be able to outperform a company, that, with its rio brand and manufacturing/distribution infrastructure in place, hasn't been able to succeed (yet)?

--dan.

...we could put together a company with a world-class engineering team that could revitalize empeg production.

I am afraid I must respectfully disagree.



tanstaafl.

No offense but if SSIamerica can market the neo.... Well... hats off to this idea and if ya get something in the works let me know. While I have virtually no programming experience, I know a good deal about network setup and infastructure, while I dunno if you'd need someone like that just keep me in mind . I realize it seems like a crazy idea but I like that kinda stuff.

Don't let the naysayers get you down. All great companies started with people saying they're nuts.

CD's will be a thing of the past in a few years and we will all be carrying around all our music on our wristwatches. If you can get in on the ground floor and create a great product, who knows.

Having spent the last 2 years starting a nearly profitable software company, I don't envy the person who takes this on. Good luck in getting several hundred thousand dollars in capital too.

I'm not saying it can't be done, but it's a lot of work and a lot of money.

Good luck in getting several hundred thousand dollars in capital too.

I guess that might cover our NRE, what about everything else?

Rob

You're not the only person who's thought of this. When the empeg got discontinued, many people, including myself and my friend, considered the idea.

You really have to ask yourself: If empeg, Ltd. and SonicBlue couldn't turn the thing for a profit, what makes you think you can make a profit doing the same thing?

Now, if you wanted to do a startup where you could make an MP3 player that was cheaper to manufacture and less expensive to sell to the general public, go for it.

See, that was the problem with the empeg: It was so expensive that it was hard for people to see past the price and discover that it was worth every penny even at twice that price.

My point is that if your goal is to make something exactly like the empeg, your product might suffer the same fate. If you want to make a profit, you have to design a different product.

Yes, if you follow in someone's foot prints you will end up where they are..

However, I imagine Hugo does not write too many bad checks.

A new, idea, under $300.00 would sell to the masses

I don't write any, nasty paper things that they are. Unfortunately, debit cards are authorised on-line

The empeg was limited by some of the things which make it most attractive to the geek user, though - like being pull-out so you can plug it in on your desk. The mk3, to appeal to a wider market, sacrificed a lot of the cool stuff in order to be most things to most people - and that meant no pull out, no ethernet, no serial, etc.

A dockable player is one way to go (though unless the player is as slinky as a Rio Pearl or an iPod, I personally wouldn't find it that great) - wireless is another. Both have been shown as forthcoming products at CES; it'll be interesting to see which one catches on.

Hugo

I think that a car MP3 player would work great on the mass market right now.

You need:
1. Good appearance (including display)
2. CD player AND/OR tuner (this is going to be a major sticking point with Joe Average)
3. Interface where everything can be done without using a computer, including setting up playlists
4. Preferable: a way to put music on the device without much technical knowledge (probably with CD player)
5. Preferable: a way to install the unit without massive costs or ripping up the dash
6. Marketing
7. Low cost (sub-$500)


The appearance of the Empeg appeals to a lot of people, but many people like the gaudy crap that others manufacturers are putting out. I really don't know what appearance would appeal to the most people.

Most people do not want to give up radio and CDs. It is true that once they use the device, they will no longer desire to listen to them, but they won't purchase a car stereo without one in the first place.

People are also scared of anything that requires technical knowledge of any kind. It doesn't matter if it really is simple, or if there are detailed step-by-step instructions. If it requires that they hook up more than one cable to it, or use a computer in any way, they won't want to use it. The instant you mention Ethernet, USB, drivers, software installation, or anything like that, you've turned off 90% of the market.

Market share can be grown by word of mouth, but you really need to make people know about your product if you want to sell any. You need your product review to appear when they open up an audiophile magazine or Car and Driver or their local newspaper. You need people to see it when they go to their neighborhood store. When they refer to a car MP3 player, you want them to say YOURPRODUCTNAME, much like they say TiVo for PVR, Ipod for handheld MP3, XM for satellite radio, etc. Commercial spots, sponsorship, etc. will also help you get this recognition. This is the main area that SonicBlue consistently fails.

Perhaps most importantly, the cost needs to be under $500 to get most people to even look at it. Given today's hardware prices, it may be extremely difficult to make a product for cheaper than this and still make a profit. If you make it more expensive than $500, you are only going to hit the niche market, unless, of course, you can get an OEM automobile deal (an extra $500 doesn't look so bad when you are already spending $20,000 or more).

The first companies to build any market have a rough road. However, at this time, consumers ARE ready for a car hdd mp3 player. You just need to present it in a way that they will be able to understand and at a price they understand. The main hurdle right now is price. Sub-$500 and you have a huge market, but is that really possible yet?

-Biscuits

Given that 1st-gen in-car ripping CD mechs (proper automotive spec, not like the sony or pioneer ripping head units) are only just coming out - and ditto for automotive spec HDDs - there's a price premium on these items. Also take into account the large margins that aftermarket resellers take in car audio (40%+) and it starts to get very hard very quickly to get a "cheap" product to market.

A $500 automotive aftermarket product is realistically going to have to have parts that cost no more than $200. There's a market, and it's getting bigger all the time, but I don't think it's primetime just yet.

Hugo

I think short-term, things like the Rio Pearl and Ipod are where the market is heading. They still appeal to only a fairly minor market segment (10% who aren't petrified of computers).

If they were remarketed towards cars? I really think this is the way to go. Just come up with an FM modulator and car mount. Then have your marketing material play up this up. If SonicBlue doesn't do this with the Pearl, they are really missing the ball.

True, you sacrifice some audio quality, but you can talk people into a Pearl much easier than tearing up their dash and spending an extra $100 to get something installed while losing their radio and CD player. However, you gain the ability to take the player with you.

-Biscuits

If SonicBlue can somehow manage to kick the booty of Apple iPod, then people might start asking whether they can make a car pull-out version of the Rio portable. That would be entertaining.

Another not-entirely-unreasonable idea would be for car manufacturers to standardize on some wireless variant of the patch cord between your portable MP3 player and the in-dash stereo -- maybe Bluetooth, maybe something else. If that standard ever came about, then you wouldn't have to hack up the dashboard of your car to remove your manufacturer's proprietary-sized stereo system and could instead just have your portable converse with your in-dash stereo.

Heaven knows, maybe a company with the clout of SonicBlue could push such a standard across the industry...

You can do something similar already. They are called FM radio signals. With an FM Modulator, you can take the output of the portable MP3 player (Pearl, for example), and send a signal that your car stereo can pick up (FM station 87.9 for example, or any other station for that matter). You lose some audio quality with the conversions, but you still get a pretty good signal.

The problem is, few people know about these. Even among those that do, they would still need to do research to find the right parts and order them. The Pearl or similar could easily appeal to the mass market if it came with an optional kit (mounting bracket with built-in cigarette adapter and FM modulator).

-Biscuits

i could have sworn someone posted a link to a new mp3 device with a built-in fm mod.

The biggest problem with this is sound quality. Even with an FM modulator plugged into your antenna input in your car you get at best FM quality sound, not CD quality.

I always thought that the killer combo would be an in-dash docking statoin for your iPod or such. Basically get into the car, flip up a huge auxillary display (like the Empeg has) and it would reveal a slot that would fit a portable player. Slide the player in, then flip the aux display back down and you have all the advantages of a portable with those of a car player.

Disk space would probably be an issue for some, but hey, wait a few years and we won't have to worry about that even.

You could possibly manufacture it so it would be a standalone FM radio even without docking your portable.

FM transmitters aren't legal in europe, as far as I'm aware (no matter how low power, they're still intentional emitters). You're ok in the USA though. I've passed the suggestion on to marketing as I don't think they've considered car accessories beyond the usual cassette/power adaptors yet.

I suspect well designed in-line modulators, that fit in the FM lead, are likely to be legal everywhere but obviously that involves pulling the car to pieces to find the antenna cable.

The player with the built-in modulator (and tuner) is the Neuros - www.neurosaudio.com - rather overpriced and large for a 128MB player, and rather huge for a 20GB one, but at least it's original in its featureset!

Hugo

i would buy one of those if someone made one.

But how about a player the same shape as a face off panal with a display that rotates 90 degrees electronically and then behind it you have a cd drive for on board ripping and the amp built into it as well.

totally killer combo

well apart from a mk2 with wireless ethernet

If this is priced correctly, and has even reasonable software, I think it may be my Empeg replacement (should it die beyond repair for whatever reason).

http://empeg.comms.net/php/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=empeg_general&Number=134959&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=0&fpart=

I always thought that the killer combo would be an in-dash docking statoin for your iPod or such.

Wow! That is a GREAT idea! I guess that's a bit the direction to where Dension is heading with their new Din-sized HU.
The shape of the iPod would also allow this pretty easily I think. I imagine the Pearl to be more of a problem in this area.

This would solve lots of problems at once : A Cd player would still be an option with this HU, as would an FM receiver be. Still not sure weather I would like the Fm receiver to be in the HU itself or in the removable MP3 player. On the one hand I would say in the HU itself because that would mean that the HU at least would be able to play some tunes when you've not brought the removable Mp3 device with you, OTOH I would also like an FM receiver in the portable device. (If I'd really have to choose I'd say put it in the HU itself)
Also, the mp3's could still be loaded onto the portable device with emplode-like software. (with the added speed of firewire, USB 2.0 and ethernet of course). I still believe there's no better software on the market yet that doesn this job better and more easily than Emplode does, and I would hate to loose this feature.

And to top it all off I would get a great full-featured portable player !! (of which the battery could charge when it's in the car!)
Oh man, this sounds better by the minute. I sure hope that SonicBlue is developping something along those lines !

I'd say with the new mp3 players comming out now there probably isn't a reason to do this. We Empeggers get the reward for being early adopters, that is the one product that did everything right. Now the whole project is going to get dumbed down for consumers, which was the inevitable next step.

My feeling (possibly with no basis in reality) has been that we aren't too far away from having PCs built into our cars. If that happens anytime soon (within the next five years) any car based mp3 player is going to become a moot point with the loads of mp3 software already available for download. Not that everyone will move away from CDs when built in PCs come along, but all the geeks (like us) who use mp3 now will no doubt make every use possible out of having a computer in the car.

How about a unit that connects to your normal head unit using the CD-changer conection (Phatnoise-style), and can be controlled via the normal CD-DJ controls. Easy to fit with standard cables. Make it rip CDs internally, and use speech to give the user feedback to make up for the lack of flexibility afforded by the usual CD-changer controls. That should attract the mass market appeal (i.e. no talk of PCs, synching, MP3s or other phrases that scare the mass consumer), which should get the sales volumes up . Sell it to them as "just feed it all your CDs and then choose what you want to listen to".

Ensure it can still connect to a PC for those that want it (wired or wireless) and hope that you've come up with the right feature mix!!

Nick

Since several people have asked the same question, "how can you possibly expect to succeed where others have failed in the same endeavor?", I thought I would respond with my thinking in this area. Believe it or not, I had considered it. :-) Here are my thoughts:

1. No software development is required. There is production NRE and some design work to copy and modify (for manufacture) the engineering of the empeg hardware, but no software development would be necessary. This results in hugely decreased time to market and R&D expense. License agreements can be structured to pay royalties on a per unit sold basis.

2. The prices on the requisite hardware have dropped significantly since the empeg's introduction something like 3 years ago. This is a major factor. 20GB laptop drives can be had for under $75 bought at retail one at a time. 30GB drives are under a hundred. Sure, we all want 120GB (160GB if you're Grzelak), but most of us *bought* 20GB empegs or less.

3. The market is more ready for something like this than it was 3 years ago.

4. Basically, the hard work is done. A new company can come in and "stand on the shoulders of giants" without having to make all of the investments that the giants did. No debt. This is done all the time. The Koreans are absolute experts at it.

Yes, I know the empeg team looked at mass manufacture. Yes, I respect their efforts tremendously and I don't mean to diminish them. However, its a high tech product with high tech components. Things change very quickly and it is literally a different world wrto the market, the components, and even the manufacture.

I have worked with good engineers who specialize in manufacturing and it is a sight to behold. They see the world differently than the people who invent the products. It's fascinating. Some of the best are from Korea now.

As an aside, have any of you heard of the "World Skills Competition"? It's pretty cool. The Europeans and Americans get whomped by the Asians in pretty much all of the manufacturing technology areas...

The question of whether the empeg is something that the masses would embrace at *any* price is a good question. Was it really price that held back empeg adoption, or is it that the target market is people who think its cool to run httpd on their car stereo -- which I would guess is a small (but fun) group of "extremely eccentric, cubical dwelling engineer[s]" (Grzelak).

Anyhow, that's my $.02. Things change...

Jim

You rang?

Respectfully!!! I want your 60's, remember!

Jim

You'll be fighting me to the death!

I think some of the key components are now unavailable, or at least they were difficult to source in quantity at time of production. If you ever do go into business and start making them, put me down for one (just need to justify having a spare for my spare!)

My concern is that you would not be able to manufacture them in any kind of quantity and be able to show a profit from it. The later sales by SonicBlue were actually done at a significant loss. If you were able to reproduce the hardware, I would think it would be at a hefty price.

And no offense taken - still waiting on the 80s before even thinking about getting rid of the 60s. Still no word from Hitachi.

Exactly....The empeg was (is!) cool because it wasn't (isn't!) a PC, it's an embedded system that boots incredibly quickly, if you want a sub $500 system, I think PC in a car is the only way to achieve this.

As andy said, some of the parts are obsolete, most importantly the processor is no longer available, and the replacements are BGA technology, I don't think it's a case of modifying the processor board, but a task in relaying out the board - I design CAD (EDA) software specifically for designing circuits and PCB's, and I couldn't even begin to imagine the complexity of the reengineering task. Prototypes are expensive, especially if you have BGA parts where you can't mount them yourself and you have to have them professionally mounted.

The software would almost certainly require modifications to work on the new processor - and you'd be at the mercy of sonic-blue forever more.

I'm still not convinced that the market is ready for another empeg 'as is', I love my empeg but it's still a niche market device until the point that mp3's replace CD's as a mass market media.

Technology moves fast, and it's certainly overtaken the empeg that we all love, if I was looking for a new empeg replacement it'd have to have all the features of the current one + other stuff, such as colour display, 100 mbit ethernet, or maybe wireless lan with a removable faceplate....Without serious finacial backing I don't think you'd get anywhere...

Adrian

Speaking of FM transmitters, check this out. It's only for the iPod at the moment (and not available yet), but I'm sure other companies will follow and make them for other portable's as well.

As a side note, this seams to be a very interesting idea.

I think the real direction will be dockable I-Pod-like devices. (The I-pod seems perfect in scale and form for just this). These devices are likely to be adopted by the very-same people that adopt the I-pod. And, as we have all seen, even execu-techno-phobes are starting to use the I-pod.

If you created a DIN sized deck, with CD and FM and a "docking slot" for an I-pod - you are there. A full-featured stereo, with CD and radio, that becomes a 5,000 song jukebox. You rip ONCE into the I-podish thing, and you can use it as a portable.

Cheaper versions could use just a "USB Caddy" which is not a player in its own right, but simply a portable HD.

Of course, the display and UI will be the life or death of ANY new MP3 product, particularly the car unit. Empeg is very close to ideal, with some mods it could be pretty damn perfect.

Just my $0.02

better management?

Interesting idea, but scarcely new; the same jacket was out last year, compatible with Sony Minidisc players. It also appears to have a separate gubbins module in addition to the iPod and the fabric switches, which has to be removed for washing. Mmm.

Hugo

Ahh. I never saw the one for Mini Disc players, so it seamed fairly new to me.

I tend to think the fact that the control module has to be removed before washing is going to cause a lot of people problems. I know people that have a hard time separating colors, let alone remembering to remove something from an article of clothing. On the other hand, having spent $500 on it would probably make most people more aware of such things. At least, one would hope, anyway.

Of course, you never *wash* boarding clothes, otherwise they tend to let water in...

Hugo

Sure you do! You just have to wash the item with the proper stuff to make sure it stays waterproof/breathable. I've got some Nikwax junk that I wash my outerwear with because after a certian period of time the waterproof/breathable coating on the outside of the garment will kind of de-tune. Wash it with the reccomended treatment and your jacket/pants will bead water again.

You just have to wash the item with the proper stuff to make sure it stays waterproof/breathable

The Rohan jacket and trousers in whatever the waterproof/breathable material is that they use, says it needs no proofing. It has remained waterproof through normal washing for five/six years. I've had no such luck with waterproof walking boots, which seem to lose the effect in two to three years.

The appalling, unruly Boxers: Baskerville, Buddy and Holly have appallingly expensive Barbour dog coats ( I just pay the plastic) which need to be properly proofed, each time!

If you created a DIN sized deck, with CD

Can't see what you need the CD deck for, except on the odd occasion, that you are burning to hear your new purchase on the way from the store ( I keep a cheapo CD Walkman for that purpose and use the Empeg's Aux jack, but I don't remember using it in a year or so).

Surely, it would suffice to have a jack, so that you could input other formats: CD, Mini-disc or even cassette (if I'm on a long journey, I often buy a talking book at a service area and they're still mainly available only on cassette ( in the UK anyway)).

Apart from that, I think the concept is spot on, and not having the CD player will make a lot more room in the Din slot.

Hm.. I seem to remember the BGA chips can be "soldered" onto a board for prototyping by using a standard kitchen oven with careful temprature control?
Or even by a hot-air gun (but for such a large number of pins, thaty may be implactical)

Marius (Escort Cab + Mark II)

I seem to remember the BGA chips can be "soldered" onto a board for prototyping by using a standard kitchen oven with careful temprature control?

That's extremely optimistic. It would be very masochistic not to have a prototyping company do this for you - it's not THAT expensive.

Rob

I guess this is where you have to decide your market. If you use the PC as your main music source (from CDs or wherever), the product will remain niche for a while yet, as the word MP3 still scares off a large chunk of potential users, let alone the complexity of ripping all your CDs, undocking your car player, connecting it to your PC, uploading and then taking it back out to the car. If you want the mass market appeal and the big sales volumes/cheaper prices that that hopefully means, then you need to have an easy way to get the music onto the unit. And a friendly CD slot is probably the most easily understood.

That's not to say it can't still do all the other things and more for those that want it..... If the mass market can get the price down, think what that surplus cash could buy instead!!

Nick

yeah, i agress that it's extremely optimistic to use an oven! - i've seen board's that are probably 10*10 inches and they tend to be known as banana boards, you basically end up with unbalanced areas of copper, when the boards are heated they basically end up bending, most manufacturers when they manufacture solve this by not allowing the boards to bend whilst they cool down...but it can warp back under heat - including later processes like wave soldering.... Your pick and placer is going to have technology (electrical test, xray) that can verify that the all connections have been made......

..I wasn't just referring to cost of placement of BGA's, it's more a general cost, you've moved up a step in technology, you'd better hope that you've got the design right and that you haven't accidentally connected a gnd pin to vcc under that BGA otherwise you're in a whole heap of trouble...

Adrian

At least there isn't a whole lot of power there. It isn't like you are connecting a 480 volt line (BOOM). All you'll have done is destroy your prototype.

Take your point, but I'm probably the least computer literate contributor to this site, and I'm now thinking the MP3 way.

2or 3 years down the road will the world have caught up with the Empeg way of thinking, I'm not a market analyst, we'll see!

I would like to think so too! I may be being too hard on the general willingness to embrace PCs in this way, but I am usually too much the other way, and take the user's willingness for granted. I launched an MP3 variant of a standard Ford CD radio not too long ago, and I discovered after a while that I had to make sure people understood it could still play normal audio CDs as well as MP3 CDs. They just assumed an MP3 CD player would only play MP3 CDs. And these were (automotive) audio specialists!! It didn't even occur to me to mention this, as the radio looked almost exactly the same!

Nick

Not sure how to say this but, as you are using a bulletin board, you are almost a computer genius in the eyes of a large chunk of our OEM customers!!

Nick

almost a computer genius

Well I've come a long way, when I first heard about the Empeg, I got someone in the office to find the website, got my name on the list...

...but then I faced the problem that I didn't have a PC, but I didn't dare go and buy one until the Empeg arrived, in case I bought an unsuitable one.

Then I bombarded poor Rob and the guys with endless e-mails around the subject of it not being user friendly...which, looking back, make me cringe and I only ask forgiveness!

- and would it be yourself, advertising your wares in glossy colour ads. on the inside front cover of Automotive Engineering, you find my work at the back in the job section!

I must admit to not having looked at a copy of "Automotive Engineering" for a while, but I imagine we are in there somewhere with glossy ads and lots of indeterminate words!

Ahh, job section - I am aware of your work then!?!

If you bought a PC to use the EMPEG, perhaps we can show OEMs that people will buy a car just to use something similar!

Ahh, job section - I am aware of your work then!?!

Probably not, we write, design and book job ads., we don't keep a register, headhunt, or select, in fact we place ads. on behalf of those that do.

I seem to remember your ad. being fairly specific about what the MP3 player could do.

I did have to take in an MP3, CD to show the guys in the autosound specialist outfit that fitted my Empeg(in 4 cars and a motorhome), what the MP3 players that they have on display do, and to my knowledge they are still using it to demonstrate - so I have a lot of sympathy for the slow learning curve that you've encountered!

You don't happen to have a copy of that ad anywhere do you? I don't think I was aware of that, and I'd be intrigued to read what it should do!

I don't, but the publisher is an old friend of mine, so I don't think it'll be hard to trace - I'll get on to it, monday.

This thread reminded me of the following, and I was in a particularly dull briefing after lunch, so I wrote it down, I promise you, every word is true:

Whiz-Kid in lift: “Like yer ‘anbag!”

Ageing Executive & Boxer owner: “It’s not a handbag, it’s an in-car MP3 player”

WK: “What do they look like, is it like a mini-disc”

AE & BO*: “It doesn’t look like anything, it’s a type of PC file”

WK: Quizzical look?

AE & BO: “This is really just like a lap top computer in the shape of a car radio, instead of storing words like the ones in the office, it stores sound…mainly 2-300 hours of music”

WK: “ Wicked, got you, they’re those things that Eminem got prosecuted for sending over the internet”

AE & BO “ No, that’s Napster and it wasn’t Eminem”

WK “ See ya”



I think that the Napster/Geek perception is the common one, I guess the whole MP3 industry needs a body to promote its concept to the general public, other than on the internet, now it’s moving from portable, to car, to home with the speed of summer lightning – maybe it does have one, I’m an outsider, I don’t know. Otherwise it may well always struggle as a minority tool for the initiated.

At the dawn of the DVD era, one of the electrics/electronics, I don’t recall which, magazines did a survey and ( I don’t precisely remember the percentages) 80 something % of VCR owners didn’t know what Nicam was – and a very substantial proportion of the sample owned one, but didn’t know that stereo is what it did (i.e. it was just another sticker on the set, that they hadn’t looked into). I reckon that, as we stand, MP3 would produce a horrifying similar statistic.

*Nothing to do with Body Odour, Bang & Olufsen or Baltimore & Ohio.