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#143976 - 20/03/2003 05:37 Re: Informed and Civil Debate on Iraq [Re: jimhogan]
JeffS
carpal tunnel

Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
. . . thought summed up the whole "right/perfect" versus "good" issue . . .

Interesting that you've made this point in two different posts without really explaining what you mean. However, the distinction between "right" and "good" is a good (and probably right too ) one to make. Not that I agree with you in this particular situation (though I have been convinced that our attitude toward other countries has been detrimental to our cause), but often it is much more difficult to discern the "good" in something than to follow the wooden "right". We need to be aware of this tendency and always check for the "good" in what we do. This may sound kind of relativistic philosophically, however I don't believe that it is. I think that many times we become so obsessed with the rules we've made, we forget what the purpose was in the first place.

Though I respect the band Rush immensely, as you all probably already know, I cannot agree with them philosophically in most areas, though I appreciate the effort. "The Color of Right" off of Test For Echo, however, is an exception to the rule and is bang-on target.
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.

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#143977 - 20/03/2003 06:25 Re: Informed and Civil Debate on Iraq [Re: ]
frog51
pooh-bah

Registered: 09/08/2000
Posts: 2091
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland
LOL!



Nice one!
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Rory
MkIIa, blue lit buttons, memory upgrade, 1Tb in Subaru Forester STi
MkII, 240Gb in Mark Lord dock
MkII, 80Gb SSD in dock

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#143978 - 20/03/2003 08:13 Re: Informed and Civil Debate on Iraq [Re: frog51]
Anonymous
Unregistered


hehe

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#143979 - 20/03/2003 09:57 Re: Informed and Civil Debate on Iraq [Re: jimhogan]
blitz
addict

Registered: 20/11/2001
Posts: 455
Loc: Texas
Zbignew Brzezinski

Wasn't he Carter's National Security Advisor during the Iran Hostage crisis? A pretty good quote concering that situation: "President Carter inherited an impossible situation -- and he and his advisers made the worst of it."

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#143980 - 20/03/2003 11:03 Re: Informed and Civil Debate on Iraq [Re: JeffS]
jimhogan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 06/10/1999
Posts: 2591
Loc: Seattle, WA, U.S.A.
Interesting that you've made this point in two different posts without really explaining what you mean. However, the distinction between "right" and "good" is a good (and probably right too ) one to make.

Yes, I probably didn't do a very good job, that. I think there are different variations on this theme (dare I say "paradigm"?) along the lines of "In the search for the perfect, the good was lost" and "so busy doing right, he forgot to do good".

An organizational example of the former: New manager takes over group of 5 talented programmers working on a project, but is concerned that they are only operating at 90% efficiency (they spend a lot of time on a particular BBS and sometimes take long lunches). He is determined to raise productivity to 98% and so blocks somebbs.comms.net on the firewall and installs a time clock. Morale plummets, 4 of 5 staff quit, project fails.

I think the latter "right versus good" is most often applied to situations where, as you suggest, "wooden" sometimes bureacratic, rules trump what most folks would consider good judgement.

Not that I agree with you in this particular situation (though I have been convinced that our attitude toward other countries has been detrimental to our cause), but often it is much more difficult to discern the "good" in something than to follow the wooden "right". We need to be aware of this tendency and always check for the "good" in what we do. This may sound kind of relativistic philosophically, however I don't believe that it is. I think that many times we become so obsessed with the rules we've made, we forget what the purpose was in the first place.

I may be oversimplifying by applying this "good-right" label or maybe just misapplying it. Also, while the "good" part of the equation really conveys a balancing of morality judgements, I think that the current situation can also be approached on just practical grounds as well.


What the *hell* do I mean? I think that in a resounding, selective fixation on *one* UN resolution, albeit one that does resonate with some portion of the US electorate, I think we failed to bring other important allies along (touting of recent support from 35+ latecomers notwithstanding). In our zeal we even went so far to exaggerate some pieces of evidence and invent others. This last will not improve confidence in our government's future pronouncements.

So, I think the "good versus right" issue is that we are being shortsighted.

Let's fast-forward to late 2004 with a scenario that I do not know will be correct but which I think is in the realm of probability:

- The immediate war on Saddam is long over and Saddam is dead.
- The Iraquis fired a few scuds but that's about it.
- Significant WMD capability was *not* found in Iraq or the credibility of evidence of WMD is in dispute among our historical allies
- Rioting and assasination attempts in places like Egypt and Pakistan in the wake of the March 2003 invasion led to some pretty immediate repression of the rioters, but now those govenments are hunkered down trying not to lose power, trying not to stir up their radicals any more...on the defensive.

OK, now the U.S. wants help finding/stopping a suspected terrorist plot, or in putting OBL in his grave, or it wants to find a diplomatic way (maybe even involving the UN!) to deal with/contain North Korea....

I guess my point is that I think that there could be many situations in the near future where it would really help for us to have more true/willing allies, to be perceived as a multilateral-oriented nation, and to have inspired less resentment.

As that resigned diplomat said, has it really come to "just so long as they fear us"?

Though I respect the band Rush immensely, as you all probably already know, I cannot agree with them philosophically in most areas, though I appreciate the effort. "The Color of Right" off of Test For Echo, however, is an exception to the rule and is bang-on target.

Given the radical nature of this BBS on some issues, I am afraid that I may expose myself to serious ridicule and harassment when I admit that I do not have any Rush tunes! I keep saying I'm going to fix this....
_________________________
Jim


'Tis the exceptional fellow who lies awake at night thinking of his successes.

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#143981 - 20/03/2003 11:51 Re: Informed and Civil Debate on Iraq [Re: blitz]
jimhogan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 06/10/1999
Posts: 2591
Loc: Seattle, WA, U.S.A.
Wasn't he Carter's National Security Advisor during the Iran Hostage crisis? A pretty good quote concering that situation: "President Carter inherited an impossible situation -- and he and his advisers made the worst of it."

Yes, the same guy and a reasonable quote, although I am never quite sure what you are supposed to do in an impossible situation.

I think it was no-win. Do nothing? Get hammered by the Reagan campaign. Do something? Get hammered by the Reagan campaign. In cynical political terms, I have to guess that the desperate "Eagle Claw" probably *was* the only thing that would have improved Carter's reelection chances -- if that's what you care about -- had it worked.

Well, its low probability of success was borne out and Khomeini certainly got to stick his finger in Carter's eye (and got their 8 billion back, too!). Perhaps Carter should have just skipped Eagle Claw and sent the Ayatollah a bunch of TOW missiles on the QT.
_________________________
Jim


'Tis the exceptional fellow who lies awake at night thinking of his successes.

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#143982 - 21/03/2003 01:10 Re: Informed and Civil Debate on Iraq [Re: jimhogan]
canuckInOR
carpal tunnel

Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
Given the radical nature of this BBS on some issues, I am afraid that I may expose myself to serious ridicule and harassment when I admit that I do not have any Rush tunes! I keep saying I'm going to fix this....


*whew* I thought I was the only one. I can't bear to listen to more than two Rush tunes in a row. I currently have zero Rush tunes in my collection. And I'm Canadian to boot!



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#143983 - 21/03/2003 10:17 Re: Informed and Civil Debate on Iraq [Re: canuckInOR]
genixia
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/02/2002
Posts: 3411
I watched a very interesting programme on PBS last night, "Frontline - The War Behind Closed Doors". Anyway, they were looking at the Iraq conflict from a modern (ie Gulf War to present day) historical and political perspective.

It turns out that Stormin' Norman has a lot to answer for.

At the end of the Gulf War, Bush Sr and Colin Powell were concerned that the conflict should end cleanly, and not be drawn out into a messy affair like the Vietnam and Korean Wars were. To that end, kicking Saddam out of Kuwait was the only goal. Regime change, although desirable, was not a specific goal.

So the Gulf War had crippled Iraq, and liberated Kuwait. Saddam was on the point of being toppled from within, by either the Shi'ites in the South or the Kurds in the North, and Bush was fairly confident that could happen. He delegated responsibility for the terms of the ceasefire to the military.

Saddam wanted the ceasefire at any cost. He knew that the longer the war continued the greater the chance that he was either killed or toppled. He was concerned that Iraq's territory would be eroded by the then current US land forces, but ultimately would have been willing to relinquish some of his land to retain control.

So at the ceasefire agreement the Iraqi generals were rather pleasantly surprised to hear that the US would give back all of Iraq. They asked whether they would be allowed to fly helicopters. Stormin' Norman thought for a while, realised that Iraq's roads and bridges had been badly damaged, and agreed. The Iraqi's then confirmed their request, but this time prepending the word 'armed' before 'helicopters'. Apparantly, without really thinking, Stormin' Norman reaffirmed his decision. Saddam got everything he wanted.

Those helicopters were used to great effect by Saddam to quash the uprisings. The Shi'ite uprising in the South was put down within 2 weeks, involving the brutal deaths of (estimated) tens of thousands. The Kurds in the North had been more structured than the Shi'ites. Their uprising probably would have been successful, had the US intervened and protected them, but again, was brutally put down. Helicopter gunships chased the Kurds into the mountains, firing rockets at them along the way.
Allied fighter planes were still flying daily sorties at the time, and watched this happen. The pilots were pretty pissed off (to say the least) to have to watch the helicopter gunships fire upon unarmed civilians whilst they fled. They were ordered not to get involved.

By the time the White House reacted to this brutality it was too late. Although many Kurdish lives were saved when the US set up safe refuges in the mountains, any chance of toppling Saddam was lost. From the moment the US stepped in, Iraqi helicopters ceased operations against the Kurds.

The program also looked at US (miltary related) politics stemming from the same time frame. Paul Wolfowitz was working (in the Pentagon) on his then secret policy document. It was so radical that some concerned staffers that read it leaked it to the Washington Post, where it caused disgust amongst most of the US public. It called for a change in US foreign policy, to use US military might to change the World, as opposed to managing US interests within the World. It called for preemptive strikes as opposed to reactive strikes, even where US interests were not prevalent. Supporter of this document included (surprise, surprise) Donald Rumsfeld and Dick Cheney.

When GW took office, he was naive in foreign affairs. Indeed, during his election campaign, he was schooled in foreign affairs by republican delegations visting the Texas Governor's Mansion. His naivity was well demonstrated during his campaign. During the first nine months of office he kept out of foreign affairs. The hawks (Rumsfeld and Cheney) were balanced by the moderates (Powell, Rice), so nothing much was done at all.
But post September 11th, 2001, that all changed.

Many people point to one statement by the President as being the most significant statement that he's made, "We will make no distinction between the terrorists who committed this act, and those who harbor them."
That statement opened the door for the Hawks to run the show.

As I said earlier, a fascinating programme, and well put together. I really have not done it justice here. My limited powers of expression cannot accurately portray the interviews, video footage and well written narrative, and I've completely ignored segments of the program that dealt with other relevant subject areas, e.g., Clinton and Containment, UNSCOM etc.

Apparantly you can watch it online;
Frontline - The War Behind Closed Doors
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#143984 - 21/03/2003 10:44 Re: Informed and Civil Debate on Iraq [Re: genixia]
jimhogan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 06/10/1999
Posts: 2591
Loc: Seattle, WA, U.S.A.
Pretty good summary, actually. There isn't much left in the way of serious TV journalism in the US, but Frontline holds a big share of that small market.

Total tangent: I was almost amused to read this (symbolic? freudian?) mistake in a BBC news bit:

"The US Marines regrouped and Captain Crevier also called forward two M1-Abraham American tanks to try to help punch a hole through the Iraqi resistance.

(from this story about a battle in/for Umm Qasr)
_________________________
Jim


'Tis the exceptional fellow who lies awake at night thinking of his successes.

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