Boxer,

Presumably you have tried the new HiJack (v330) with Mark Lord's fix?

You say that the AF debugger gives you "No AF information available" with or without HiJack installed? This implies that you're not getting any alternate frequencies, or perhaps even no RDS at all. However, you mention that you have got at least one traffic announcement which would indicate that you're getting some RDS.

Please try the stock 2.0 final release available from the car player releases site without HiJack installed - Tune to a station you know has a good signal in the area you are in and use the standard radio info mode. If you get the flashing 'RDS' text towards the right of the screen and the station name and name of the program that's currently playing start to fill themselves in, then you're getting RDS okay.

Also whilst doing this keep an eye on the signal strength graph - Try to determine for the station you're listening to at what level on the graph the RDS icon doesn't come on any more.

Once you've done all this, and are certain that you've got a strong RDS signal from the station you're listening to, press the info button to start the AF debugger mode. If the RDS of the station is already established, the alternate frequency list should already be populated, and depending on how long you've been listening to the station, it should already have measured the strength of a number of these frequencies. You should get a graph on the screen which I explain below for the benefit of all:

The graph displays the relative signal strength of frequencies in the list.
A vertical line is drawn for each frequency in the list at the horizontal position determined by the frequency - Since each pixel represents 160kHz it is possible that two candidate frequencies occupy the same horizontal pixel.
The height of the vertical line denotes the signal strength and is normalised such that the range of signal strength readings fits into the vertical space available. This means that the strongest signal should come to the top of the available space, and the weakest signal should appear as a single pixel at the bottom.

You will notice that periodically one of the vertical lines goes dark - This means that the frequency signal strength is being measured. The algorithm for choosing the candidate from the AF list combines both the signal strength and time since last measurement - This way strong signals are focussed on, and weaker signals are tested less often until they become stronger.

The currently tuned to frequency is denoted by a pixel at the top of the bar along with its frequency in MHz.

Sometimes other signals will appear to have a greater signal strength than the one currently tuned to, but the radio does not switch to this frequency. This is because the AF code will not switch to a stronger candidate frequency until it has had a number of consecutive readings above the current frequency's strength.

This makes sure that retunes only happen when we're sure that the candidate frequency is stronger. Due to limitations of the design it is still possible that the stronger candidate frequency is not actually the station we're looking for, it could be a different station (for example a local station) broadcasting on one of the national stations alternate frequencies. So once the tuner has retuned it waits to get a PI code from the new frequency - If this PI code doesn't match the PI code from the station it tuned away from, it tunes back to the old frequency. (The time taken to receive a PI code is greater than the amount of time the background retunes to test signal strength happen in - This is the design limitation).

Please let me know if you're getting RDS, but are still unable to view the AF debugger graph.

Thanks,
Toby

As mentioned elswhere, I used v221 instead (others have tried v329+s).

v221 fails in the same way.

I don't have any earlier Hijack kernels to try - what next?

Try v330 available from the HiJack website.

It worked for me.

In reply to:

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The time taken to receive a PI code is greater than the amount of time the background retunes to test signal strength happen in - This is the design limitation

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AIUI, this is a limitation of the way RDS itself works, so there's no possibility to improve this in the player, right?

As to always getting "No AF information available" (aka "Dormant" state) even though Radio info mode shows RDS and AF being received - I've found that sometimes this happens to me when I access the station via a preset or at boot. If I nudge the frequency a step and back again (e.g. by pressing Left then Right on the remote - not front panel), I can get it into the Wait state (Hijack) or Active (virgin kernel). Does this help you, Boxer?

thanks for all the detail.

Assume in all cases that I'm in the centre of Leeds, with no hi-jack, all stations are showing full strength, steady RDS indicator, TA and AF, and where appropriate TP and strong enough to show the information line at the bottom.

Stations that are on presets continue to give no AF information on the de-bugger.

What I have now discovered is that stations that I have tuned manually come up with the graph exactly as described.

I initially thought that it was the BBC stations that provoked the no AF information in the debugger, but the AF indicator is on on the standard info mode.

Therefore, logical, or not, it seems to be preset stations that provoke the problem.

Going into a meeting now, I'll give it another try after 2.00 and make sure that I come to the same conclusion.

Interesting, thanks Boxer and Toby.

It does sound as though presets are causing a problem - For the moment please use tms13's workaround which involves using the remote to nudge the frequency down and then back up (thus simulating a manual tune to that frequency).

Let me know whether the AF feature is behaving as expected (apart from the preset issue which I will try to get sorted).

Please understand that we only have 2 tuner modules at Empeg (all those that weren't physically glued to a desk were shortsightedly sold from under our noses - And no, that is not an exageration) - The upshot is that the AF code, and indeed any recent tuner code has not received much testing - The testing it has received has mostly been stationary (rather than in a car which is where AF would be useful).

This, coupled with the fact that most of our users are based in an RDS incapable zone, means that any feedback you can offer will be very valuable in nailing any bugs trailing from 2.0 final.

Huh, I've got as many original tuner modules as Empeg!!!!

...and they are in cars, well a car and a motorhome.

If you want me to come down and demonstrate the problem and let you have a zoom around to test it, just shout, Mrs.Boxer would love a day out. Time hangs heavy since my board voted me a 3 day week and no operational duties! (that's why I'm making so many postings recently) - the old railway modelling's not as engrossing as I first thought.

I hardly ever use the tuner, all this is about is: When we go away for the first trip out of the season in the motorhome, if Mrs. Boxer can't get Terry Wogan mornings and Jonathan Ross Saturdays - full strength - she'll go ballistic - so the cut off point for rectifying the problem is May 1!

Right, off for a bit of tuner testing.

Toby - if you want me to test any player binaries for you, drop me an email. I can come into your office to sign NDA if necessary.

I now have my player backed up onto my desktop machine using rsync, so I'm in a position to alpha-test stuff.

Thanks Toby & Boxer for your testing offers.

Although I'm not speaking officially (would have to check with Rob), I would be surprised if an NDA were necessary for player testing on the car_v2 branch since 1) The code does not represent any current or furture projects 2) You would be testing a player binary

Anyway, thanks very much, once I have had a chance to look into the preset problem I will check with Rob and send you both a player binary with the corrections for testing. I think this will be a great help, and will prevent us from making correctional releases without addressing all the outstanding problems.

Boxer: The thought of Mrs Boxer going ballistic because she's missed her favourite show is reason enough for us to concentrate our collective energies together to fix these problems.

Please understand that we only have 2 tuner modules at Empeg (all those that weren't physically glued to a desk were shortsightedly sold from under our noses - And no, that is not an exageration)

Wow. It must be tough to stuff that desk behind your dash.

Right, we've done a bit of driving round the Moors and Dales.

Having the debugger on, on one of the presets, effectively locks out the AF function - but then, why wouldn't it, the display is telling you that it has no AF information!

Switch the debugger out and the AF works, but differently to the set in the Jaguar. On Radio 4, the Jaguar changed frequency four times: 93.7, 94.4, 93.7, something else I didn't catch, 94.4, whilst the Empeg changed once: 93.7 to 94.4.

The question: Which is doing the job right? - is subjective, the Empeg is taking, if you like, a much more thoughtful approach: With the Jaguar you get stuttering( You could be listening to a DAB set!), with the Empeg, the signal weakens but holds. The route I'm taking used to be my route to work, and, from memory, the majority of RDS sets switch 3 or 4 times in the shadow of the escarpment(Before RDS, I used to have adjacent presets set to 93.7 and 94.4).

I've now manually tuned to Radio2 and put it back on the player, I'll see whether it pulls in all the traffic reports over the next day or so, and report back. Hijack also goes back on tonight.

Note: Oof, just got that corrected before the Grammar Police hove into sight in de black Peugeot for the infamous dawn raid!

I just got a picture in my head of Rob running around Cambridge with that desk on his back and Toby right behind him shouting : "faster Rob, faster! We're reaching a frequency-switching point!"

Rob running around Cambridge with that desk on his back

Driving round Cambridge is, I understand, notoriously expensive, but running round strapped to a desk with a very sophisticated hi-fi fitted is probably a charging category that the council have missed out on!

Driving round Cambridge is, I understand, notoriously expensive, but running round strapped to a desk with a very sophisticated hi-fi fitted is probably a charging category that the council have missed out on!

And if done at the right time of year would probably not even look out of place. Just got to keep an eye on student events to find out when

same offer from me...

I'm in an area of germany where AF is really necessary, so if you need a NDA signed, drop me a note and i'll send you my postal adress


besides,

I can confirm the preset-based misbehaviour, too. as soon as I listen to a manually tuned frequency, AF is working (or what you'd call working with that crappy antenna that VW glued to the back window... but that will change on friday.), except for the few frequencies where there are stations, but not the stations the empeg is looking for, but they are too weak to give any useful PI code at all.


bye,
[L]

I've reinstalled 2.0 without hijack and I am now able
to get the AF working on one of my two preset Radio 1
frequencies, which displays the AF debugger fine.

However the other one which does have a TA signal in Radio mode never seems to work, same with Radio 2.

Also I'm not convinced the retunning algorithm work as it keeps retuning to an AF which is very weak!

TA is working better - however several of the stations it picks up are barely audible due to bad signal.

Ok,

I've just had my crazy-AF experience coming to work. Ita was my first try with Hijack 330. 329 and 329+ would cause the player to lock completely at a certain point, AND there seemed to be NO RDS signal where it used to be, as if hijack was "eating" it, somehow.

In fact, after switching to Hijack 330 I got "RDS" back on the right side of the display, and the Radio Station Name is showing again.

BUT my empeg kept on changing frequencies, apparently to ones which have nothing to do with the radio station I was originally listening to. It did so continuously on my 45 minutes commute to work, ALL thorugh the city (so no frequency change should have occurred at all. I have to cross Rome city center from one end to the other, so it's only 12Km and still it takes me 45 mins due to traffic), so that I hat to preset back and forth to the station I was listening to (by pushing left and right buttons on the player itself, not on the remote).
As I said I am in Rome, Italy. There are many many local stations here, as well national ones. All national stations have RDS, as well as quite a few local. As mentioned by Prolux, freequencies may be overlapping. Problem is that empeg changes frequency and stays on the "wrong" ones belonging to some other station, not on ly local. Few times it switched from one national station to another (for the Italians here, from Radio24 to Radio Dee Jay).

Also, switching off AF did not seem to work. The empeg kept chaning frequency. I seemed as if the AF function had not been switched off at all.

The problem occurred both with and without TA.

I did not have the chance to read this thread fully before, so I haven't tried any debug mode. However I do get "RDS" on the right and I do get the station name on the top left corner.

If I can contribute in any way to tolve this, please let me know. I'll be really happy to.

So, the bad news is, that I've got to listen to Radio 1 in the interests of testing.

The good news is that I've got to go to Rome for the same reason!

I'm trying to wire up a spare Blaupunkt in the same car as the Empeg, this morning, with a spare aerial taped to the wing mirror: Hopefully, I should have some useful comparisons by Monday. Unfortunately, of course, I'm not technically minded, so they'll simply be listening observations.

In reply to:

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The good news is that I've got to go to Rome for the same reason!

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Email me when you're here. I'll offer you a good cappuccino Thanks for your effeors on behalf of all the RDS victims in the community

Anybody help me quickly with a wiring diagram for those two eight pin plugs that are on proprietary car radio cassettes. The one out of my audi had a diagram pasted to the top of the set, neither the MG or Citroen do?

Try this (it's a right-click and save as job). It's just the power block, the speaker ones are quite easy.

This ones even better!

Great, thanks a million, now all I've got to do is figure out how to connect without going to the expense of buying the plugs!

Before I posted, I went through my junk bin and found five different types of non standard multi pin plugs: A history of the evolution of car stereo fittings!

I've also got an MG/Rover HU showing all eight pins and I was hoping some of those spare pins were amp outs, It doesn't say who made it.

I think I've found out as much as I'm going to - if I drive round much longer looking at two HU displays, I'm going to crash - If I didn't have hijack to toggle between sourses, I'd have crashed already!
1. A little problem in 330, when you slide the Empeg into the car sled, it only toggles between player and aux ( I have it set to toggle on a quick press of the vol. knob) - once you've selected radios in the normal menus, it toggles correctly round all three sources. I thought that this was because it was holding the in-house setting, but it does it when you put it back in the sled having not had it plugged in at home.

N.B. I did once post a wish, asking for the option of taking aux. out of the toggle, so it just went player>radio: I never use the aux.. Best of all would be to toggle: Radio> Favourite Playlist 1>Favourite Playlist2.

2. AF: Acknowledging other people's different conclusion, as far as I'm concerned, AF works fine - The Blaupunkt and the Empeg did about the same things - maybe the Jag. I tried before had a jittery HU..
It's really easy to check this by manually tuning to, say, the weakest Radio2 signal and then driving for a few minutes, for me, it retuned every time on all four BBC stations.
So, at least I'm fairly safe that Mrs.Boxer will get her favourite shows!

3. However, the station indicator will hold on to a previous station display until it detects a really strong (All bars on) signal. I drove for a good ten miles down the A1, this afternoon with Radio 4 on, with the station indicator and the info. ticker telling me it was Radio3.

4. The problem with presets remains, however: I can't get anything other than the no AF message every time, and the AF facility is locked out, which is a bind, as I only use presets.

5. TA works fine, if you're tuned to a TP station, which I'll come to. If you've got the player on, it clicks straight over to a traffic announcement.

6. In answer to a previous posting of Rob's, Empeg worked better than the Blaupunkt right up by the radar on the boundary fence at Leeds/Bradford airport during a TA. The Blaupunkt picked up a great deal of interference - not the Empeg - So, as I suspected, the Empeg solution is way above industry standard.

7. So the problems, apart from the presets, appear to surround the EON facility and are, therefore, mainly related to the BBC national stations:
a. My Empeg has generally been tuned manually to Radio2 with TA/AF on. I've only once successfully received a traffic broadcast on a local station (other network) since installing 2.00. In fairness, I only use the TA facility on long journeys, so I can't be sure how well it worked before.
b. 5 times, it has clicked from player, but stayed on Radio2. On two of these occasions, I was able to check that a traffic announcement was on Radio Leeds at the time - so it's getting only halfway in switching.
c. On two occasions it failed completely to detect a traffic announcement, although the Blaupunkt did so.

FURTHER OBSERVATIONS
1. Does the light go out in the fridge when you close the door? - It would be helpful if the AF/TA/TP indicators stayed on when the player is in use, so that you know that the tuner is working properly.

2. Somebody else posted that you can't separately adjust the traffic announcement volume: A very good point.
You may well be chatting in the car and have turned down the volume, but , obviously, don't want to miss the TA's, I think I'm right in saying that most RDS sets have this facility.
- The Empeg could go one better and continue to play TA's in pause!

Hope this helps.

Ok, after testing for few days, here is my experience in an area very populated of radio stations with RDS:

empeg chages frequency withour staying on the same station, every few seconds, in an urban area where no frequency change should actually occur since each station has only ONE frequency in the whole area. So, in my case, the freqeuency chage actually occured only to a different station.

What's new since my last post is that this time I verified that the problem occurs both using a preset and after changing frequency back and forth with the remote control to simulate manual tuning, as Prolux suggested. I have tested this tens of times for few days.

When activating the AF debug mode, I see that the frequency/station change occurs each time any frequency other than the one I'm listening gets stronger.

And just to add to the crowd, here's what I've been finding:

I drove from Bracknell to Dunstable yesterday evening, listening to Radio 4. It was re-tuning correctly for most of the journey, until I started nearing Dunstable, at which point it started switching to a completely different station. Similarly, when I was going home to Reading again, it started re-tuning to BBC Radio Berkshire (the horror!) from about Maidenhead onwards. I don't know if the latter is on one of R4's alternate frequencies, but it's 104.4.

This was all with AF and TA both on or off.

Cheers,

BBC Radio Berkshire (the horror!)

It will be, the BBC network is the most coherent AF network to test your tuner, you would find doing it tricky with the independant network.

I would say: "BBC local radio(The horror!)" was a better quote, but we have a couple of hours of really good folk, blues, jazz each week here in Yorkshire.

I haven't picked up a single traffic announcement since I posted last friday, I've had it manually tuned to Radio4, with AF/TA on. However, it could just be the altered commuting pattern in the school holidays, in other words, I'm not in the right reception areas at the right times.

In reply to:

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each station has only ONE frequency in the whole area...

When activating the AF debug mode, I see that the frequency/station change occurs each time any frequency other than the one I'm listening gets stronger.

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If you see other frequencies in AF Debug, then the station you're listening to (claims that it) has more than one frequency. Perhaps your radio station is broken - did you try with different broadcasters? Ideally, unrelated broadcasters - e.g. in Britain I'd compare a BBC station with an independent one.

At the weekend I had a TA (the first in months - but that's probably a reflection on my travel habits).

I was listening to MP3s; the radio was tuned to BBC R4 with AF working.

The player paused and switched to radio for long enough to hear a station name (BBC Midlands or something?), but then it switched me to Radio 4. A few seconds later I intervened to return it to MP3 mode.

Is it possible that AF and TA fight with each other, so that the stronger Radio 4 signal won against the local station? Or is AF suspended until the TA has finished?

I get this also, the radio switches to a station giving the TA the gets immediatley re-tuned back to the original station, the Traffic Announcement label stays on the screen also.