Unoffical empeg BBS

Quick Links: Empeg FAQ | RioCar.Org | Hijack | BigDisk Builder | jEmplode | emphatic
Repairs: Repairs

Topic Options
#156996 - 24/04/2003 12:59 How much does dynamat help? RTA?
Mach
old hand

Registered: 15/07/2002
Posts: 828
Loc: Texas, USA
Can anyone give me advice on objectively measuring the benefits of installing dynamat into my mustang? I wanted to get a baseline measurement initially, and then do successive measurements as the install progresses (door, floorpans, firewall, etc)

I'm guessing using SpectraRTA, a laptop, and a Radiohack SPL meter would work but I'm not sure.

Can anyone in the know comment on the whether this will work? Anything I should keep in mind when doing this? What sampling location is best? Ear level driver's side or closer to the floor?

Thanks


Top
#156997 - 24/04/2003 13:06 Re: How much does dynamat help? RTA? [Re: Mach]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31594
Loc: Seattle, WA
On an old car like your Stang, I'd bet it would help a lot, but... The only problem is doing ENOUGH of it in your case to do any good. You'd need to coat just about everything to make it really worth it. And that gets expensive fast.
_________________________
Tony Fabris

Top
#156998 - 24/04/2003 13:37 Re: How much does dynamat help? RTA? [Re: Mach]
robricc
carpal tunnel

Registered: 30/10/2000
Posts: 4931
Loc: New Jersey, USA
My father recently purchased a '66 Mustang and it's all in pieces now. He plans on selling it after refurbishing it. Would dynamat be a good idea to do while it's all apart? He's puting the original AM/FM stereo back in, so it would be more for road noise than music.

I only drove it once and the windows were kinda down, so I wasn't really looking for road noise. I don't know first hand how bad it is, but since it's old I would imagine it sucks.
_________________________
-Rob Riccardelli
80GB 16MB MK2 090000736

Top
#156999 - 24/04/2003 14:19 Re: How much does dynamat help? RTA? [Re: tfabris]
Mach
old hand

Registered: 15/07/2002
Posts: 828
Loc: Texas, USA
That's what I was looking to objectively figure out...where the point of diminishing returns is. I've read beau-coup postings about how sound deadener works or doesn't work. There is so much back and forth about it that I believe that once someone has installed it, a placebo effect kicks in. (similar to the "go-faster" effect that makes all kids with new gym shoes run 15% faster )

I've ordered 75 sq ft of Dynamat Extreme as a start. Rob S suggested in a previous post that the firewall is the best place to begin. Dynamic Control reports big noise reduction by doing the doors. Anything has got to be better than it currently is. You actually have to raise your voice in the car to be heard over the noise from the road, engine, mufflers, etc.

Top
#157000 - 24/04/2003 14:35 Re: How much does dynamat help? RTA? [Re: robricc]
Mach
old hand

Registered: 15/07/2002
Posts: 828
Loc: Texas, USA
After 30+ years, any factory sound deadening material is pretty much gone in these cars, so yeah, it will suck. It definitely would be easier to install before putting the interior back together, especially at the firewall. You might surf over to the Vintage Mustang Forum for 66 specific info. Many folks view Dynamat as an unnecessarily expensive sound deadener and recommend cheaper alternatives. Since he's going to sell it after restoration, something like brown bread or raammat may be better.

Top
#157001 - 24/04/2003 17:36 Re: How much does dynamat help? RTA? [Re: Mach]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31594
Loc: Seattle, WA
Anything has got to be better than it currently is.
In your case, this is true, with that old Stang. If you had a recent model of Toyota or something, the dynamat isn't going to do squat because new cars are already sound-deadened. But with the Stang, it's really going to help.
_________________________
Tony Fabris

Top
#157002 - 24/04/2003 21:47 Re: How much does dynamat help? RTA? [Re: tfabris]
DeadFire
addict

Registered: 30/05/2002
Posts: 695
Since the subject was brought up, is there anyone in the house that could give me recommendations on how do to my 98 Civic, and perhaps a brand or two as alternatives to Dynamat? The road noise has finally gotten to me. I don't want to have the stereo on high volume all the time.

Top
#157003 - 25/04/2003 10:48 Re: How much does dynamat help? RTA? [Re: DeadFire]
kswish0
enthusiast

Registered: 06/02/2002
Posts: 212
Loc: Virginia, USA
Dynamat original is crap. It doesn't conform to contours very well and even with proper heating during installation, I've had trouble getting it to stay (it peels off after a while). Although for doing a large flat area such as a floor I guess it would work fairly well. Just be sure to do this in the summer when you can go with your windows down for a while to help get rid of the horrible asphault smell. Dynamat extreme is great, but too freakin expensive. It conforms to curves very well and sticks great. Once this stuff is on, its not coming off. My recomendation though is to go to Lowes or Home Depot or some similar store and get some roofing insulation (forget what its called but it is almost exactly like dynamat extreme). A friend of mine bought 100 sq. ft of some no name dynamat extreme wannabe off ebay and when it came in the mail, it was just a roll of roofing insulation. He was very dissapointed at first but after looking at it, it really was almost exactly the same as dynamat extreme. Really sticky black rubbery stuff with the thin aluminum layer on one side. He went ahead and installed it and it worked great. He just wishes he knew about it before he ordered it from ebay because it would have been a lot cheaper just to buy it directly from a store instead of from some punk kid who marked it up, called it something differen't and put it on ebay.

I have dynamat extreme on both front doors and in my trunk. I mainly did it to stop some of the rattling that was happening at higher volumes. It completely got rid of any rattling I had. And suprisingly, even just doing the front doors cut down on some road noise. It also made my music sound more crisp. When the speaker pushes the cone out, it also pushes the door its mounted to back (for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction blah blah blah...). And when the cone is pulled back it pushes the door in. Adding the extra mass to the door resists this and made my music sound much more clear. On some of the more solidly built cars, it probably wouldn't make as much of a difference. But on my little sentra, the door panels are extremely thin and flimsy and it helped a lot.

Top
#157004 - 25/04/2003 10:54 Re: How much does dynamat help? RTA? [Re: DeadFire]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31594
Loc: Seattle, WA
I had a friend who did it to his Toyota Paseo, which is probably comparable in size and construction to that Civic. I think it was pretty close to the same year, too.

To do it, he literally stripped the interior out of the car from the seats back. All the carpet, headliner, door and wall panels, seats, seatbelts... everything was removed except for the dash. Then he spent a ton of cash on dynamat and covered every available square inch of metal with the dynamat, from firewall to tail lights.

It was a *HUGE* amount of work, very expensive, and in the end, it produced a noticeable improvement in the overall acoustic damping of the car, BUT not a "huge" amount. The car was modern enough so that the amount of acoustic damping supplied at the factory was pretty sufficient. So upgrading to the dynamat, even after all that work, didn't produce as much of an improvement as he'd hoped. He said he wouldn't do it again after that experience.
_________________________
Tony Fabris

Top
#157005 - 25/04/2003 10:58 Re: How much does dynamat help? RTA? [Re: kswish0]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31594
Loc: Seattle, WA
My recomendation though is to go to Lowes or Home Depot or some similar store and get some roofing insulation
Good suggestion. Yeah, my friend said that if he ever needed to insulate a car that much again, he'd use a similar material from Home Depot because the Dynamat is too expensive.

I have dynamat extreme on both front doors and in my trunk. I mainly did it to stop some of the rattling that was happening at higher volumes. It completely got rid of any rattling I had. And suprisingly, even just doing the front doors cut down on some road noise.
This is good to hear. Because I've been getting some rattles that I think are coming from my doors, and I'd like to work on getting rid of those. I'll have to keep my eyes open for that roofing insulation material. How does it stick? Is it sticky-backed like Dynamat?
_________________________
Tony Fabris

Top
#157006 - 25/04/2003 13:01 Re: How much does dynamat help? RTA? [Re: tfabris]
Ezekiel
pooh-bah

Registered: 25/08/2000
Posts: 2413
Loc: NH USA
E-A-R Specialty Composites has a whole range of products which may be helpful (you probably know them from their ear plug business). The link above has info about a car stereo application. They may be another place to look, especially if you're going to buy many square feet. Industrial distributions channels are usually a bit thiner than consumer channels. They can probably point you to a rep that can take your order. HTH

-Zeke
_________________________
WWFSMD?

Top
#157007 - 25/04/2003 13:26 Re: How much does dynamat help? RTA? [Re: tfabris]
kswish0
enthusiast

Registered: 06/02/2002
Posts: 212
Loc: Virginia, USA
How does it stick? Is it sticky-backed like Dynamat?
Yes, It is almost exactly like dynamat extreme except it is maybe a very tiny bit thiner. You just peel the back off of it and stick it on. It is extremely sticky. You have to be careful when putting it on because if you dont have it lined up proberly, it is very hard to unstick it. It conforms to bends extremely well. If you have ever used dynamat extreme, then it is pretty much exactly the same.

Top
#157008 - 26/04/2003 05:01 Re: How much does dynamat help? RTA? [Re: Mach]
genixia
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/02/2002
Posts: 3411
Start with large thin panels - these are most likely to pick up vibrations and turn them into noise, the thicker structural beams far less so. So the firewall is the prime contender - basically a thin panel with a large noisy thing on the other side.
I'm guessing that on an old 'stang the door panels' exterior skins will need it too. (Many modern cars have safety beams that effectively cut the panels into multiple smaller panels).
The third large area that should also be done is the floor pan. Although probably thicker than the door skins, most of it is not 'structurally strong' and will pick up vibrations given it's large area. Should help with road noise.
Roof panel (if not convertible) is also a prime candidate.
After that, the remaining problem areas are likely to be car specific, 'stang forums may have a handle on known contenders. Otherwise it's going to be a case of cranking up the volume and locating the buzzes and rattles.

I'd suggest that RTA isn't going to be amazingly useful in this task. Sure it will show the peaks of the resonances due to panel vibration, and also the lack of those peaks after those panels have been damped. However, it's also going to show peaks and troughs arising from elements that you aren't going to be correcting with dynamat, eg window vibrations, seat absorbtion, basic car geometry etc, which could just confuse the issue.


Edited by genixia (26/04/2003 05:36)
_________________________
Mk2a 60GB Blue. Serial 030102962 sig.mp3: File Format not Valid.

Top
#157009 - 26/04/2003 09:17 Re: How much does dynamat help? RTA? [Re: genixia]
Mach
old hand

Registered: 15/07/2002
Posts: 828
Loc: Texas, USA
Thanks for the help. It's less a problem with the stereo and more one of exterior noises permeating the interior.

As to the RTA, I'm clueless about the technology but I'd like to get a measure of how much quieter before vs after dynamat using a series of scenarios (driving, idling, etc). If RTA is overkill, would you suggest just making a sound recording while driving and then look at peak levels?

Top
#157010 - 26/04/2003 10:35 Re: How much does dynamat help? RTA? [Re: Mach]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31594
Loc: Seattle, WA
As to the RTA, I'm clueless about the technology but I'd like to get a measure of how much quieter before vs after dynamat
Then RTA is overkill. RTA's job is to measure the details of the frequency spectrum. To get a proper comparison pass, you'd need precisely the same settings in SpectraLAB and on the PC's sound card inputs, and precisely the same microphone placement for each pass. Then you'd need to make certain you measured at precisely the same speed/RPMs on exactly the same section of road.

I'd just get an SPL meter and use that, to reduce the number of variables you need to account for between the two passes.
_________________________
Tony Fabris

Top
#157011 - 26/04/2003 13:11 Re: How much does dynamat help? RTA? [Re: Mach]
genixia
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/02/2002
Posts: 3411
I'd like to get a measure of how much quieter before vs after dynamat using a series of scenarios (driving, idling, etc).

Well, I hope that you really want to measure how much quieter after vs before dynamat...

What the heck, if you're just looking for some feel-good-factor objective measurements then an RTA should give you some. My point was that trying to use an RTA to locate parts of the car to damp would probably result in you chasing your tail around in circles. But it should still show differences before/after.

Of course, you'll need a calibrated microphone to do that anyway, which a cheap SPL meter from Ratshack will provide. So taking simple SPL measurements is always an option too.

Something else to consider is that 'driving' noise is basically due to 3 elements. Engine, wind and tires. Aside from the dynamat, you'll also want to consider door/window seals (old seals are less flexible, and therefore worse than new), and potentially different tires. Unless you're doing a lot of track time then trading 3% of traction for a 20% reduction in tire noise has to be considered. ('stang forums and reviews at tirerack.com could help here)
_________________________
Mk2a 60GB Blue. Serial 030102962 sig.mp3: File Format not Valid.

Top
#157012 - 26/04/2003 16:06 Re: How much does dynamat help? RTA? [Re: tfabris]
Mach
old hand

Registered: 15/07/2002
Posts: 828
Loc: Texas, USA
Sounds like a plan. I believe this was the Radioshack spl meter that was discussed in a previous thread. I'll let you know how it goes. Thanks.



Attachments
155452-33-2050.jpg (215 downloads)


Top
#157013 - 26/04/2003 16:18 Re: How much does dynamat help? RTA? [Re: genixia]
Mach
old hand

Registered: 15/07/2002
Posts: 828
Loc: Texas, USA
...quieter after vs before dynamat... errr, yes but expect a few more questions if its not

I've ordered the analog SPL meter from RadioShack. I'll give it a go as you and Tony have suggested.

The noise is mostly engine with backup from the mufflers and rear wheels. The car's fastback shape makes it act like a horn so noise seems amplified. There's also a fair bit of dead space in the rear quarters that I'll need to figure out how to fill. I've replaced the window seals and tires and it helped but not enough. I'll let you know how it goes. Thanks!

Top
#157014 - 28/04/2003 09:49 Re: How much does dynamat help? RTA? [Re: Mach]
ithoughti
old hand

Registered: 17/07/2001
Posts: 721
Loc: Boston, MA USA
for another alternative to Dynamat try RAAMaudio

From what I've heard, their stuff is less expensive, better quality and doesn't stink like Dynamat.

_________________________
---------
//matt

Top
#157015 - 19/07/2003 13:19 Re: How much does dynamat help? RTA? [Re: kswish0]
Caps
stranger

Registered: 09/07/2002
Posts: 52
Loc: Arizona, USA
I am in the process of installing the stuff from Home Depot in my car. I feel that the $20 I have invested is enough. It is cheap enough that I can even double or triple it up if I need to. I didn't find anything that had adhesive or aluminum on it though.

The way I tested my car was to turn on the eMpeg and see how much sound is escaping from certain places around my car. The door panels and trunk were pretty bad. Even at -35db on the player I can hear the music a little bit. My Saturn has pretty much no soundproofing material in it now. Hopefully, after putting this stuff in, and covering the inside of the wheel wells, the music will stay in and the raod noise will stay out more than is happening now.

Top
#157016 - 21/07/2003 16:55 Re: How much does dynamat help? RTA? [Re: Caps]
eliceo
enthusiast

Registered: 18/02/2002
Posts: 335
Anyone know the brand name or part name of this stuff that you found at home depot?

Top
#157017 - 21/07/2003 18:53 Re: How much does dynamat help? RTA? [Re: eliceo]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
I don't have a brand or part name, but, if it hasn't been mentioned before, it'd be sold in the roofing department. It's called roof membrane.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk

Top
#157018 - 25/07/2003 22:00 Re: How much does dynamat help? RTA? [Re: wfaulk]
image
old hand

Registered: 28/04/2002
Posts: 770
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
and this is the stuff with aluminum on the topside?

Top
#157019 - 25/07/2003 23:32 Re: How much does dynamat help? RTA? [Re: eliceo]
mtempsch
pooh-bah

Registered: 02/06/2000
Posts: 1996
Loc: Gothenburg, Sweden
Peel & Seal is one name I've heard it go by. I've also heard of people using Gutter Seal, but it seems to be less weight per sq foot...

/Michael
_________________________
/Michael

Top
#157020 - 25/07/2003 23:38 Re: How much does dynamat help? RTA? [Re: mtempsch]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31594
Loc: Seattle, WA
Anyone know if that stuff will stink when it gets hot? I'd hate to put it inside my doors and then have to live with my car smelling like asphalt roofing shingles. Can anyone relate experience with that stuff?
_________________________
Tony Fabris

Top
#157021 - 25/07/2003 23:43 Re: How much does dynamat help? RTA? [Re: tfabris]
mtempsch
pooh-bah

Registered: 02/06/2000
Posts: 1996
Loc: Gothenburg, Sweden
From what I've read over at SoundDomain.com, it looks like a brief initial smell, but nothing after that. But no, no first hand experience...

/Michael
_________________________
/Michael

Top
#157022 - 26/07/2003 06:35 Re: How much does dynamat help? RTA? [Re: tfabris]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
Just make sure that you don't get the stuff made from asphalt. These days, it's mostly made of synthetic rubber compounds.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk

Top
#157023 - 27/07/2003 20:34 Re: How much does dynamat help? RTA? [Re: tfabris]
kswish0
enthusiast

Registered: 06/02/2002
Posts: 212
Loc: Virginia, USA
Can anyone relate experience with that stuff?
Yes, I can. My friend had a 100sq ft roll of this about a year ago and did a lot of his car and gave the rest to me. I did some of my trunk and both my front doors with it. I dont remember it having a very strong smell. It was a while ago though and i dont really remember. And I imagine that if it did smell bad, that is something that I would remember. If it did at all, it was only for a few days. There is no smell at all in my car now though, (well, at least not from this stuff). Typing when you're drunk is really hard. Writing complete sentences when you're drunk is also hard. Sorry in advance if this post doesn't make sense.

Top
#157024 - 27/07/2003 23:01 Re: How much does dynamat help? RTA? [Re: kswish0]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31594
Loc: Seattle, WA
Typing when you're drunk is really hard. Writing complete sentences when you're drunk is also hard. Sorry in advance if this post doesn't make sense.
That's OK, been there done that.

Thanks for the information about the cheap alternative to dynamat. That's the roofing stuff you're talking about, right?
_________________________
Tony Fabris

Top
#157025 - 29/07/2003 17:13 Soundproofing [Re: Caps]
Mach
old hand

Registered: 15/07/2002
Posts: 828
Loc: Texas, USA
Doors and wheel wells can help but don't neglect the firewall area which can be a large source of noise. There are a variety of products from Dynamat to Home Depot roofing material. The idea behind these types of products is mass loading (see below) so I don't know if brand name makes a difference. Everyone seems to have their favorite. Just stay away from the asphalt based ones as they can smell. Do a search for deadener at sounddomain.

As far as roofing material or bed liner, I've heard of people doing it with mixed results. Again it's mass loading so it should work but stay away from asphalt. This product recently showed up that may be what you are looking for

http://www.rbsobsolete.com/NewProducts/CCC.html

Here's some info I found over at sounddomain on how to do this to my Mach 1. A moderator posted this in this thread.

There are really only two ways to reduce the volume of road noise in a vehicle: mass loading panels and adding barriers.

Mass loading is exactly what it sounds like. You add mass to a panel to lower it's resonant frequency. [physics] Everything vibrates best at a specific frequency, but will still vibrate at every frequency to some degree. The idea behind mass loading is that by adding the extra mass, you make it vibrate at a lower period (frequency) to the point where it drops out of the audible range. For example, if you have a fixed energy input (road noise) and a fixed sound level at that energy level, when you add mass to the panel, you are are making it so that it now requires more energy to maintain the same level of output. Since it can't do that (fixed energy input) the noise level must go down. [/physics] So long story short, the heavier a panel is, the more energy it takes to move it. Since the level of energy is fixed, the noise level goes down.

Barriers are exactly like what you think they'd be. They prevent the sound from traveling from one location to another. This is done by combining methods of absorption and deflection. Usually the easiest way to absorb sound is to use a medium that can convert vibration into low level heat. Most closed cell foams are very good at this. (open cell foams are not as effective and often absorb water, causing all sorts of other problems) The best way to deflect the sound is to use a material that is stiff and dense so it won't allow sound to cause it to vibrate. The best barrier materials have a combination of both attributes in that they have a layer of foam with a layer of dense vinyl backing. This absorbs the brunt of the sound in the foam and what isn't absorbed gets reflected back into the foam by the dense vinyl so that the foam gets another shot at it.

Mass loading is particularly effective against lower frequencies as they are the highest energy and easiest to move out of the audible spectrum. Barriers and absorbers work much better against the higher frequencies in the audible spectrum.

There are several materials that attempt to do a lot of jobs at once. A good example is Dynamat Extreme and other styrene and rubber mat materials (RaamMat, FatMat, eDead, etc...). They use a mass loader like rubber impregnated asphalt and an absorber like styrene monomer to balance the properties of both. They act in conjunction as an absorbing mass loader and they are very popular for that reason. Don't be fooled into thinking that the aluminum foil is a barrier though... it's a constraining layer only (ie it's what the material is sprayed onto to give it a shape). Yes it does give it a certain degree of heat resistance but that's more of a side effect... it could be sprayed on wax paper and rolled up just as well

In my not so humble opinion it is always best to use a combination of materials to achieve the best sound deadening. A layer of mass loading material to take out the lows and a barrier/absorber to take out the mids and highs give a well rounded solution to your deadening quandary.

Just make sure when you stuff the insulation that you don't put it anywhere that it might get wet. If it can hold moisture, it will. If it holds moisture, it will mold and cause your panels to rust out. No one wants a stinky car with giant body cancer spots on it If you want a good substitute to that foam, look up DapTex at the Home Depot or Lowes. It is a minimally expanding (non-aggressive) latex foam. It has good cavity filling properties and cleans up with a wet rag (unlike Great Stuff which will stick to anything and everything and expand so much that it can buckle your sheet metal). It also will repel water once cured.


Top