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#166813 - 22/06/2003 02:59 How much am I worth?
ricin
veteran

Registered: 19/06/2000
Posts: 1495
Loc: US: CA
Ok, I've been debating on whether or not to post this here, and decided I better just go ahead and do it because it's driving me crazy and I can't sleep. So, here it goes...

In March I got a job as a Programmer / Analyst at a local, fairly large company. When I was hired, they asked me what I thought I was worth, and they pretty much paid me what I said ($5k/year less). Now, at the time, I picked a fairly low number because I was jobless, felt like shit and was just desperate for a job.

Now, three months later, without me even saying anything at all, my boss comes to me, calls me into a meeting, and tells me he sees that I'm doing a lot more than was expected, that my "talent" is greatly appreciated, that he doesn't think i'm getting compensated fairly, and that I need to think about what I am really worth. He gave me the weekend to do this.

Needless to say, I was floored, and still am. I can't for the life of me figure out what I should say on Monday. I don't really know what I'm worth, and I'm basically feeling lost at the moment.

So, I ask, how does one decide what they're worth? How do I know I'm being fair and not giving him some ridiculously high figure, etc?

Help!
_________________________
Donato
MkII/080000565
MkIIa/010101253
ricin.us

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#166814 - 22/06/2003 04:01 Re: How much am I worth? [Re: ricin]
bonzi
pooh-bah

Registered: 13/09/1999
Posts: 2401
Loc: Croatia
Congratulations, Donato! One could have worse problems than this...

I am affraid I cannot offer advice apart from obvious: asking friends in similar position, looking at ads offering jobs (if they still exist ), perhaps asking a headhunter for advice (if they are willing to dispense such kind of specialist knowledge). You could perhaps factor in any special circumstances (e.g. have you resurrected a moribund project for them, do you have a skill unique in the company etc), but then again, three months might be too early for that.

If they originally gave you $5k/yr less than requested, then it looks as if $10k/yr raise would be a safe minimum...

Anyway, good luck!
_________________________
Dragi "Bonzi" Raos Q#5196 MkII #080000376, 18GB green MkIIa #040103247, 60GB blue

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#166815 - 22/06/2003 04:16 Re: How much am I worth? [Re: bonzi]
ricin
veteran

Registered: 19/06/2000
Posts: 1495
Loc: US: CA
Congratulations, Donato!


Thanks!

One could have worse problems than this...


Very true. I'm very happy with my job, and I feel very lucky to have found it.

I am affraid I cannot offer advice apart from obvious: asking friends in similar position, looking at ads offering jobs (if they still exist ), perhaps asking a headhunter for advice (if they are willing to dispense such kind of specialist knowledge).


Yep, I've done most of those things, many times in fact, and I still just can't come to a conclusion.

You could perhaps factor in any special circumstances (e.g. have you resurrected a moribund project for them, do you have a skill unique in the company etc), but then again, three months might be too early for that...


Well, I am in the process of rewriting an application that is incredibly out-dated and something nobody else was willing to touch. I'm also the only individual with Linux/Unix knowledge.

Still, though, I'm lost as to how to come up with a reasonable figure. I've searched all over for salary surveys and references to "fair market value," etc, so I have a slightly better idea, but I'm still unable to reach a solid conclusion.


Anyway, good luck!


Thanks!

All in all, I'm very happy to be employed at the moment, and certainly happy with my job. I love the environment and the work itself is exactly what I want to do, not to mention the fact that it's only 5 minutes away. Now, that's not to say that better compensation wouldn't hurt, I would love to be able to afford to buy a house, or at least move out of my parents house.

I just don't know....
_________________________
Donato
MkII/080000565
MkIIa/010101253
ricin.us

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#166816 - 22/06/2003 04:31 Re: How much am I worth? [Re: ricin]
phi144
enthusiast

Registered: 15/02/2002
Posts: 314
Loc: New Hampshire, USA
Congrats. Its a very unusual position to be in, especially in this job market. For reference maybe try www.salary.com. At least they may give you an idea of what similar positions pay in your area. I believe www.monster.com may have a similar service. I know some ranges can vary greatly depending on different sites you visit but at least it may give you some idea. Just a thought. You may have already tried this.

Good luck. Post back after Monday's meeting to let us know how it went.
_________________________
Doug

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#166817 - 22/06/2003 04:40 Re: How much am I worth? [Re: ricin]
JeffS
carpal tunnel

Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Unfortunately I can't give you much advice here, except that you have to try and be a little bold. I say this because I really hate these kinds of questions. I wish I could just do my job and let everyone else decide what I'm worth.

When I got my current job I relocated from Houston. My company told me they would not pay for me to relocate. I said "fine" because I needed the job, but after moving I found out just how expensive moving was. When I'd been on the job three months some other co-workers convinced me to ask for some relocation reimbursement, even though I'd committed to not getting any. They said that I'd proven to be a good employee and the company should be glad to pay my way. I felt really stupid about asking, but I finally decided it couldn't hurt much. So I went to my boss and really meekly asked if they could give me some reimbursement they told me I couldn't have. He didn't even blink, and in two weeks walk in and handed me a check. I'd have never asked without my co-workers prodding, but I'm glad I did. Being bold about the work I do isn't in my nature, but it really paid of that time.
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.

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#166818 - 22/06/2003 04:53 Re: How much am I worth? [Re: phi144]
ricin
veteran

Registered: 19/06/2000
Posts: 1495
Loc: US: CA
Congrats.


Thanks!

Its a very unusual position to be in, especially in this job market.


Most definitely, I still feel like I'm about to wake up any minute. I went from being unemployed, about to lose my car, seriously stressing out to having a job and then this in just 3 months.

For reference maybe try www.salary.com. At least they may give you an idea of what similar positions pay in your area. I believe www.monster.com may have a similar service. I know some ranges can vary greatly depending on different sites you visit but at least it may give you some idea. Just a thought. You may have already tried this.


I've looked all over, yes. I don't feel like what I do fits into any of the job title's they have there, plus I'm not so sure I trust the data anyway. Monster.com's salary info is actually straight from salary.com, BTW.

Good luck. Post back after Monday's meeting to let us know how it went.


Thanks again! I will probably post as soon as the meeting is over.

Eesh, 5 in the morning and I'm still wired and can't fall asleep.
_________________________
Donato
MkII/080000565
MkIIa/010101253
ricin.us

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#166819 - 22/06/2003 05:02 Re: How much am I worth? [Re: JeffS]
phi144
enthusiast

Registered: 15/02/2002
Posts: 314
Loc: New Hampshire, USA
You know what they say; "The squeaky wheel gets the grease."

I've learned the same over the years. If you don't ask for what you want you'll never get it. In my experience they either give you what you want or compromise. Either way you usually get something. That is, as long as you can justify the request.
_________________________
Doug

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#166820 - 22/06/2003 05:05 Re: How much am I worth? [Re: JeffS]
ricin
veteran

Registered: 19/06/2000
Posts: 1495
Loc: US: CA
I say this because I really hate these kinds of questions. I wish I could just do my job and let everyone else decide what I'm worth.


No kidding. I would rather them offer me something or ask all of my peers what they think I'm worth than have to answer it myself.

Interesting story, BTW. I know that I'm going to need to be a little bold, not arrogant, but confident. I think going in with confidence and knowing what I'm worth is the best bet, which is why I'm going through all this. I want to try and find that magic number, if there is such a thing.
_________________________
Donato
MkII/080000565
MkIIa/010101253
ricin.us

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#166821 - 22/06/2003 05:16 Re: How much am I worth? [Re: ricin]
phi144
enthusiast

Registered: 15/02/2002
Posts: 314
Loc: New Hampshire, USA
Yeah, Salary.com and the like are very generic but often it gives a "range" in which to work with. It seems that your boss values the work you do. If you are doing work that no one else wants/can do your salary should reflect that expertise. If you are really at a loss just go through your current expenses and future wants/needs (within reason) figure out what it would require to live within those means and go from there. If you feel the number is to high, maybe compromise. If your future needs come within a reasonable range ask for that amount, maybe a little more. I'm sure your boss is willing to work with you. I my experiences employers usually ask "what are you worth" because in many cases the employee will respond with a lower number than if the employer were to just give you what they think your worth. Unfortunalty its all a game. Don't short change yourself.

Not much advise, just my thoughts. I wish I could give you clear cut answer but there isn't one. Don't be afraid of asking for to much, the worst they will say is no. At least then your boss has a number to work with. Together you will figure something out.

Again good luck. Its a pretty cool position to be in, although stressful obviously.

_________________________
Doug

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#166822 - 22/06/2003 09:25 Re: How much am I worth? [Re: ricin]
larry818
old hand

Registered: 01/10/2002
Posts: 1039
Loc: Fullerton, Calif.
Hi,
You may not want to base your worth too much on those around you, since you are doing work they can not touch.

I'm a mechanical engineer, but also program, administer unix systems, etc... (not that that's helped me any) .

What I do is figure out what I need for what I want (house payments, car payments, savings, any other expenses), then ask for enough to cover that.

Hope this helps.

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#166823 - 22/06/2003 12:07 Re: How much am I worth? [Re: larry818]
Neutrino
addict

Registered: 23/01/2002
Posts: 506
Loc: The Great Pacific NorthWest
You really do need to think about what it is that you bring to the table. Do you feel that you are one of the best in your field? Do you find that you are called on to do the things others can't? Do you generally get things done better / faster than others? If you answer yes to these questions than you need to ask for more than the national average for your position. Companies, especially large ones, are not in the habit of giving away something for nothing. They must see merit in you. They must also believe that at your present salary there is the potential for another company to offer you more. Remember you will get one kick at the can. Don't axpect them to ask you this question again any time soon. What is the worst thing that will happen if you ask for more than they are willing to pay? You can be sure that they already know what your worth. They simply want to find out if you do.
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No matter where you might be, there you are.

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#166824 - 22/06/2003 14:21 Re: How much am I worth? [Re: Neutrino]
ricin
veteran

Registered: 19/06/2000
Posts: 1495
Loc: US: CA
Do you feel that you are one of the best in your field? Do you find that you are called on to do the things others can't? Do you generally get things done better / faster than others?


Maybe, there really isn't anyone I can compare myself to in order to answer that question fairly. Yes. Yes.

If you answer yes to these questions than you need to ask for more than the national average for your position.


Sounds reasonable, but asking for double what I'm already making seems ridiculous.

You can be sure that they already know what your worth. They simply want to find out if you do.


I'm sure they do. In fact, I know that my boss had a meeting with the CEO just before meeting with me, so I'm sure they already decided on what they're willing to give me.
_________________________
Donato
MkII/080000565
MkIIa/010101253
ricin.us

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#166825 - 22/06/2003 14:37 Re: How much am I worth? [Re: ricin]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
Sounds reasonable, but asking for double what I'm already making seems ridiculous.
It sounds to me like you're not so much unsure of how much your position is worth, but the fact that it's so much more than you're making now that you're hesitant to really say. For one thing, I'm sure your bosses recognized even at the time that they were underpaying you. But now that they see they'd like to keep you, they started to worry about what would happen if you got another job offer. If you got one, then they'd have to agree to give you a raise to keep you, but that would make them look bad. Doing it before that happens makes them look like the good guys, but know that they're not being selfless.

Also, they've put you in a position where it feels like you're asking for a raise. But they haven't. They're just asking you what you feel you'd like to be making. I imagine that the worst they'd do is say no. Your job is secure; it's unlikely that they'll let you go because you ask for more than they were expecting. At the same time, don't ask for a million-dollar raise.

Be honest with them. Tell them that you didn't and don't know a lot about such things, especially since you'd been out of work for quite a while beforehand. Tell them that you looked around to find out what comparable positions pay and came to the conclusion that it was x. Say you feel that you think that you're above average at your job, something that would seem to be corroborated by the fact that they want to give you a raise, and that a salary should reflect that, so that would bring it to x + y%. Then say ``at the same time, I recognize that that's z% more than I'm making now, and I can't really expect that kind of raise, but you asked me, and that's what my research shows''.

Keep in mind that the fact that they've offered you a raise means that they want to keep you.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk

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#166826 - 22/06/2003 14:55 Re: How much am I worth? [Re: wfaulk]
ricin
veteran

Registered: 19/06/2000
Posts: 1495
Loc: US: CA
It sounds to me like you're not so much unsure of how much your position is worth, but the fact that it's so much more than you're making now that you're hesitant to really say.


Well put. Asking for a significant percentage more seems a little odd to me, but then again I started at a fairly low rate to begin with because I was desperate for a job.


Be honest with them. Tell them that you didn't and don't know a lot about such things, especially since you'd been out of work for quite a while beforehand. Tell them that you looked around to find out what comparable positions pay and came to the conclusion that it was x. Say you feel that you think that you're above average at your job, something that would seem to be corroborated by the fact that they want to give you a raise, and that a salary should reflect that, so that would bring it to x + y%. Then say ``at the same time, I recognize that that's z% more than I'm making now, and I can't really expect that kind of raise, but you asked me, and that's what my research shows''.


Exactly. After reading all the suggestions here, it sounds like I need to suggest a higher number than I was originally thinking. I know I have a tendency to sell myself short, as I'm sure a lot of people do. I have to keep that in mind. I'm not usually one that takes compliments too well. Compliments are very rare for me to begin with.

Keep in mind that the fact that they've offered you a raise means that they want to keep you.


Yeah, he made that very clear already by his long speech and praise session before telling me he wanted to give me a raise. I've never felt so good in a meeting before, and certainly never as embarrassed.

This is certainly stressful, but at least I know I can't really go wrong. I mean, I can't lose my job and they aren't going to cut my pay, so this really is a win-win situation.
_________________________
Donato
MkII/080000565
MkIIa/010101253
ricin.us

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#166827 - 22/06/2003 20:04 Re: How much am I worth? [Re: ricin]
mlord
carpal tunnel

Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14492
Loc: Canada
If they bothered asking you, it likely means a gap of at least 30% or so..

Cheers

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#166828 - 22/06/2003 20:18 Re: How much am I worth? [Re: mlord]
ricin
veteran

Registered: 19/06/2000
Posts: 1495
Loc: US: CA
30% at least, which is about where the low end of my range is. So that sounds about right. Thanks.

I figured since this board has a high concentration of IT professionals this would be the best place to get well informed opinions. So far, everyone has pretty much said the same thing, so I feel confident enough to know about what I should ask for.

Keep it coming though, every little comment helps.

Thanks, everyone.
_________________________
Donato
MkII/080000565
MkIIa/010101253
ricin.us

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#166829 - 23/06/2003 01:23 Re: How much am I worth? [Re: ricin]
peter
carpal tunnel

Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4180
Loc: Cambridge, England
30% at least, which is about where the low end of my range is. So that sounds about right. Thanks.
Yeah, go for it. 30% pay rises aren't as rare in this game as you seem to think -- as it's so difficult to work out in advance how good someone's going to be, underpayment is rife. When I was just starting out in the coding business, I had several 25%+ pay rises.

Peter

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#166830 - 23/06/2003 17:15 Re: How much am I worth? [Re: ricin]
ricin
veteran

Registered: 19/06/2000
Posts: 1495
Loc: US: CA
Well, I finally met with my boss after 4PM. I gave my little spiel, and he said "OK, I'm going to do up some paperwork and we'll bump you up. I'll need to meet with you tomorrow again to go over the paperwork and have you sign it." So, I have NO clue what I'm going to get. Doesn't really matter though, becuase I'm just glad to have a job, and definitely appreciative that they're giving me a raise after only 3 months, no matter how much it is.
_________________________
Donato
MkII/080000565
MkIIa/010101253
ricin.us

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#166831 - 24/06/2003 06:48 Re: How much am I worth? [Re: ricin]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Congratulations. Did you meet with the Bobs? Is that why they want to give you a raise? Are they simultaneously firing two of your best friends, one of which is an arabic break-dancer??

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#166832 - 24/06/2003 06:56 Re: How much am I worth? [Re: ]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
And I'm sure by ``arabic'' you really meant ``Indian''.

Remember, all darkies are the same.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk

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#166833 - 24/06/2003 07:16 Re: How much am I worth? [Re: wfaulk]
tonyc
carpal tunnel

Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
Ajay Naidu ("Samir" in Office Space) is, indeed, Indian. But lay off yz33d, he only sees "brown people" on TV.
_________________________
- Tony C
my empeg stuff

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#166834 - 24/06/2003 07:48 Re: How much am I worth? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


haha, well it's hard to tell what country they're from. I can't tell the difference between a chinese and a vietnamese, or a nigerian and a south african.

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#166835 - 24/06/2003 09:14 Re: How much am I worth? [Re: ]
ricin
veteran

Registered: 19/06/2000
Posts: 1495
Loc: US: CA
Coincidentally, my boss is named Bob.
_________________________
Donato
MkII/080000565
MkIIa/010101253
ricin.us

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#166836 - 24/06/2003 17:21 Re: How much am I worth? [Re: ricin]
JBjorgen
carpal tunnel

Registered: 19/01/2002
Posts: 3584
Loc: Columbus, OH
Slydell or Porter?
_________________________
~ John

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#166837 - 24/06/2003 17:43 Re: How much am I worth? [Re: ricin]
tonyc
carpal tunnel

Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
Coincidentally, my boss is named Bob.
That's nothing, my boss AND my drum instructor are both named Tony C.
_________________________
- Tony C
my empeg stuff

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#166838 - 24/06/2003 18:16 Re: How much am I worth? [Re: tonyc]
muzza
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 21/07/1999
Posts: 1765
Loc: Brisbane, Queensland, Australi...
it'd be like a scene out of spys like us
Tony, Tony.
Tony, Tony. Tony, Tony.
Tony.
Tony, Tony.
Tony, Tony Tony.
Tony, Tony, Tony, Tony.
...
_________________________
-- Murray I What part of 'no' don't you understand? Is it the 'N', or the 'Zero'?

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#166839 - 25/06/2003 01:39 Re: How much am I worth? [Re: ]
canuckInOR
carpal tunnel

Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
haha, well it's hard to tell what country they're from. I can't tell the difference between a chinese and a vietnamese,


That's a tricky one. I usually have to base that one off the name.

or a nigerian and a south african.


That one's easy... tease them both about having an English or Australian accent, and see which one gets mad.

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#166840 - 25/06/2003 08:12 Re: How much am I worth? [Re: canuckInOR]
loren
carpal tunnel

Registered: 23/08/2000
Posts: 3826
Loc: SLC, UT, USA
That one's easy... tease them both about having an English or Australian accent, and see which one gets mad.
That is hilarious (in a sort of sad way of course). Good one.
_________________________
|| loren ||

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#166841 - 30/06/2003 23:24 Re: How much am I worth? [Re: ricin]
ricin
veteran

Registered: 19/06/2000
Posts: 1495
Loc: US: CA
Ok, well I ended up getting a 15.56% raise. I'm very happy.

I signed a lease today just an hour after finding what my raise was, and started moving my stuff immediately after work. :P

Thanks again to everyone for the suggestions and informed opinions!
_________________________
Donato
MkII/080000565
MkIIa/010101253
ricin.us

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#166842 - 02/07/2003 01:49 Re: How much am I worth? [Re: ricin]
canuckInOR
carpal tunnel

Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
Congrats... a good week for both of us -- I got 16.667% today, which coincided nicely with a big Canada Day party this evening to help celebrate.

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