I need some ideas.

I am in danger of losing a huge amount of money on a DVD player I won in an ebay auction. Oh, all right. It's only a little bit of money -- $32.60 plus shipping -- but it annoys me hugely. Does that count?

I really, truly do not believe that the seller is out to defraud me. I think he is just really busy (he owns and operates three carpet/flooring stores in Louisiana) and now that the auction has been over for six weeks and he still hasn't shipped the player, he is embarassed and just wants the whole thing to go away. He doesn't respond to emails. He won't take my phone calls.

The only time I got an email response from him was after three and a half weeks when I threatened to have PayPal rescind his payment, and ebay to take away his user id, and gave him 36 hours to respond. He wrote back very apologetic, said he thought his wife had mailed it, etc. so I gave him some slack -- enough slack that I am now well past the 30 day cutoff period for assistance from PayPal or ebay.

So what I want is realistic threats I can make that will goad him into either shipping the DVD player (preferred) or refunding my money (acceptable). I do not want threats that will put him on the defensive and antagonize him. I do not want to threaten him with actions that are illegal or even in bad taste. I do not want threats that could backfire (like: "If you don't give me my DVD player I'll send my 8 foot tall brother in law over to kick your ass" and then he has me arrested for threatening assault).

I do want threats that will get his attention and seem plausible. Things like: "If I am forced to turn this over for collection, I will make the claim against your business. This will very likely cause you to have credit problems with your suppliers."

The main thrust of my letter to him will be: "If I have not received by Noon on Thursday either notification from PayPal that my money has been refunded; or from you a valid UPS tracking number, then I will set in motion actions against you which will be very difficult to halt."

So, what I need are ideas for those actions.

tanstaafl.

Letter schmetter. Rescind the money and notify ebay of the fraud. You've given him MORE than enough leeway. He has now officially defrauded you and clearly does not have the merchandise to ship to you.

Think about it. Someone who lists something on ebay does so with one of two purposes:

1. To sell the item and hopefully make a profit.

2. To defraud people.

If he genuinely wanted to do #1, he would have shipped the item. It's not tough to put tape on a box and put it in the mail. The reason he hasn't shipped it is because he no longer has the item to ship, or never did in the first place. You are being duped, don't let him dupe you any more.

I would follow Tony's advice.

$39 DVD player after $7 rebate

Not as lenient when it's not someone on the board that you know is having personal problems are we?

My thoughts exactly.

In the case of a certain BBS member, there is a history of that person fulfilling orders in the past, so he had built up a reputation of delivering his goods. The eBay user tanstaafl is dealing with is an unknown to him. No proof, other than eBay feedback, as to whether or not he was legit in running his autions. 6 weeks is unacceptable, especially after he claims he thought his wife sent it. He should've got on it right away and sent it himself at that point. Screw giving him anymore chances. Go for the throat.

I disagree about going for the throat. It's not because I think the seller deserves another chance - he doesn't. But we're only talking about 32 bucks here. If the seller decided to say FU, how much effort is it worth putting out to get 32 bucks back? Whatever that effort would be, I would guess that it's more then if this was resolved in a friendly way. If I were the buyer and I believed there was still a chance to get my money/merchandise, I would keep trying until I was convinced it was pointless. Only then would I undertake the likely greater hassle of trying to forcibly get my money back.

-Dylan

This would be alot of fun: Get a friend to call him from a pay phone and claim that he is investigating Interstate Commerce fraud.

Since he has only responded to a threating letter I think it's time to let eBay and Paypal know.

Not as lenient when it's not someone on the board that you know is having personal problems are we?

OUCH! Yeah, I've been waiting since January 2003 bad thing is that I've got the sled and tuner and everything ready to make my own dock using the would be plastic utility box but since I haven't received it yet had to break down and spend more money just to get a dock (even if I can't fit the tuner module in there).

But in the case where you don't know the guy and he is obviously not being honest (whereas our pal on the board seems to be letting us know what's up) I would have to do what Tony said.

Letters? Email? If I don't have some kind of contact within 10 days with either a tracking number, a shipping notification, or at the least a very good explanation, I request contact information from eBay and start making phone calls.

I had one instance where I won an auction for a motherboard, and the seller's only accepted payment method was money order. I sent him an email requesting an address to mail it to an never got a response. 12 days later I started calling his house. I never received a reponse of any kind. I sent him an email saying that I didn't care anymore and that he could go ahead and sell it to someone else. I bought the motherboard from NewEgg. Happy now.

Anyone with any sort of reasonable feedback, either from selling or buying, should understand the process. If they are either unwilling or unable to complete their end, as is obvious here, then I don't see a problem with "going for the throat." Whether this person meant to or not, he/she has stolen money and time from you. The amount of money doesn't matter; the fact that it occured does.

Not as lenient when it's not someone on the board that you know is having personal problems are we?

I anticipated this. There's a difference between these two situations.

In Doug's case, the Ebay guy deliberately auctioned the item and then didn't follow through when all he had to do was put it in a box and mail it. This indicates to me that the item never existed, or maybe that the guy made a mistake (such as shipping it to someone else) and now won't own up to it.

In Steve's case, he accepted orders for something that needed to be manufactured, with every expectation that he'd finish the orders. Then he had problems that prevented him from manufacturing those orders in a timely fashion. This latter situation is understandable at least, if not okay.

This reminds me to check on something, though. A few weeks ago, Steve came back, explained the problems he was having, and said he intended to fill the outstanding prepaid orders soon. Has anyone gotten an order filled since that time?

If the answer to that question is "no", then you're right, what's good for the goose is good for the gander, and I'll (again) remove links to his site pending the filling of those orders.

I disagree about going for the throat. It's not because I think the seller deserves another chance - he doesn't.

Well look at it this way, he bilks 100 people out of "only 32 bucks." That's $3200 for him, and if no one follows up because it's only $32, he'll keep doing it, tax free... I'm not saying get a laywer, but don't be kind at his point either.

A long time ago before eBay and the www explosion, I bought a CD from a guy at U of Wisc. $5, sent the check, didn't hear from him after 3 months so I emailed the postmaster at his domain. In less than an hour the sysadmin called me and got the info and requested the paper(email) trail and assured me they don't screw around since the FBI investigated mail fraud through one of ther user accounts. He said he'd lock the user account until the student personally spoke with him. 3 hours later I got an email saying "Sorry I was out of town, I'll mail your CD today." Coincidence? I think not. I think he he learned his lesson, don't defraud people, and make damned sure you don't do it on your school/employer system if you do. I got my CD, Bad Company, 10 from 6. It was only $5, but it was my $5 and I don't like getting ripped off.

I was under the impression that you could "rate" a seller on eBay, along with the reasons whiy. If you rate him badly on his seller's page, this hits his seller's index and cannot be removed from public viewing. He is allowed to respond, but this is placed next to your complaint. One of the most common things to get scuppered with on eBay is a bad Seller rep. I would point this out to him: check how many sales he has, or has had, to see if he's a frequent seller. If he's using it to do a lot of business, this threat *will* count.

Has anyone gotten an order filled since that time?

Not me I'm afraid, still waiting.

What annoys me about Steve's case is that even when I ordered my lenses however many months (6 I think) ago he was already clearly in difficulty. Yet on his website it still says:

Under normal circumstances, orders ship in under 1 to 2 weeks .

Part of the reason I bought the lenses was because he kept coming on the board and saying how he would soon stop selling if there were not more orders.

If I was him then after not being able to fulfil the orders for several months I would have say "sorry guys" and refunded all the money I could. Unless of course he had to spend all the money coming in straight away on materials ?

...now I feel guilty for bitching about Steve. Sorry Steve, I do realise you are in a real shitty situation now

Yeah, I want to make it clear that I don't blame Steve for the problems he's having. On a personal level, I'm worried about him and concerned for his well-being. I just don't want to encourage people to order from him if he can't fill those orders because of those problems.

Yeah, I want to make it clear that I don't blame Steve for the problems he's having.

Yeah, me to. Perhaps I should have also said that I am happy to wait for as long as it takes for the lenses and if the never arrive then fair enough.

He really should stop taking orders though

Since he has only responded to a threating letter I think it's time to let eBay and Paypal know.


Yeah... he gets one last, desperate chance!



Fairbanks, Alaska Wednesday 8/13/03 8:00 pm ADT

OK, McCurley -- last chance.

I have been extraordinarily patient and conciliatory with you for the last seven weeks. No longer.

You have until noon on Friday (Alaska time) to do one of two things:
(1) Show me indisputable proof with a UPS tracking number
that the player has been shipped;
or
(2) Post a $60 credit to my PayPal account.

I am sorry to have to take such a hard stance, but you do not accept or return my phone calls, you have ignored all attempts by eBay's Fair Trade mediator to remedy this, and the only time you have ever answered an email was when I threatened to take action against you.

Perhaps you think I won't go to too much trouble over a measly $60. Frankly, I don't give a [censored] about the money. I do care about the lack of respect you have shown me, and when you treat me that way you will find out that I can be one vindictive son of a bitch!

You don't want to find out what all I have planned should you fail to resolve this problem, but a minimal preview might be enlightening:

(1) I will turn you over to a collection agency. Not you
personally; but CKI Floors, with all three of
your locations listed. (Yes, I have their
addresses and phone numbers.) I can do this
because you listed CKI Floors as your contact or
point of sale for the auction. This will very
probably cause you some difficulty with your
suppliers and creditors.

(2) I will leave feedback on eBay that will *strongly*
discourage anyone from ever dealing with you
again. This won't matter much, because...

(3) I will contact ebay and report you for fraud. At the
very least you will lose your eBay privileges
until you get a new email address, home address
and phone number to set up a new account.

(4) I will contact PayPal and report you for fraud. If
you think it's tough to set up a new eBay account
after being terminated, wait until you try PayPal.

(5) I will contact the Postmaster General's office and
report you for fraud. Even though you haven't
used the postal services, the FBI is very active
in investigating internet fraud, and the process
starts with the Postmaster. If you like, I'll
put you in contact with an acquaintance who got
the FBI to investigate non-delivery of a $5 CD!

There's more... but I think you get the idea. The letters are written, the addresses are all set up, you are literally a few button presses away from a very uncomfortable situation.

The time I have invested trying to resolve this is worth much more than the $60 I have sent you for the player and the shipping, in fact it's worth more than that player cost when it was brand new. One way or another I intend to get a return on that investment. It is my sincere advice that over the next 40 hours you consider your options very carefully.

Thank you.

Doug Burnside
ebay user: tanstaafl.



Whaddya think?

tanstaafl.

Perhaps you think I won't go to too much trouble over a measly $60. Frankly, I don't give a [censored] about the money. I do care about the lack of respect you have shown me, and when you treat me that way you will find out that I can be one vindictive son of a bitch!

I would have left that out. It only shows your emotion and doesn't contribute much to your argument.
Very good though.

ooooh thats good. I actually like the rough bits.

Let us know how he responds.

I agree with muzza, leave out the parts that are emotional, state only facts and what you intend to do. It's terse enough without those statements. I'd state it this way:

"Perhaps you think I won't go to too much trouble over a mere $60. Frankly, it's no longer about the money. It is about the lack of respect you have shown me, and when you treat me that way you will find out that I do not back down."

Of course if you've already sent it, that's fine. I can't believe he used his business as point of contact then pulled this crap. Going after his business is the smart thing and that should jolt him into reality.

Or maybe something like this?

Darling Fascist Bullyboy, Give me some more money, you bastard. May the seed of your loin be fruitful in the belly of your woman, Neil

(except put your name in at the end. )

Hahaha! Classic !

I would have left that out. It only shows your emotion and doesn't contribute much to your argument.


I gave a lot of consideration to that paragraph before I included it. (This letter was not dashed off in a few moments of angry passion -- I spent over an hour putting it together.)

My feeling was that since I was not denigrating him, but but was describing an attribute about myself, telling him that attribute would have adverse consequences seemed appropriate.

He has a little more than 12 hours left to respond. It'll be interesting to see what he does.

tanstaafl.

I hope he's not in an area without power...

LOL, good point.

Since you know the names and addresses of the business, do you also know the fellows name? What about calling and asking for him? Pretend to be a customer with the receptionist if there is one. Or pretend to be calling back about a loan request, or doctor's exam.

Not that I'd necessarily do it, but it's fun to make suggestions

I would have left that out. It only shows your emotion and doesn't contribute much to your argument.

All right -- it's grand finale time, and this is hilarious!

It turns out that our Mr. McCurley was a liar and a scam artist. He did not own the business he used as his point of sale, but was (note past tense) a contract salesman there, but not in the last several weeks.

The emails I had been sending him went into his defunct mailbox at the floor company and disappeared into never-never land.

The last email I sent, with the profanity in it, went to the company's system administrator because they have a filter on their incoming mail that automatically re-directs profane subject matter to him so he can take action against the sender! If I hadn't included that oh-so-profane paragraph, I would never have heard back from them.

When the SysAdmin contacted me, wondering who I was and why I was trying to collect money from their company, we were able to get it all straightened out. I talked to the real owner of the company, and he is as anxious to find Mr. McCurley as I am. Seems McCurley departed with about $3,000 worth of company property when he headed off into parts unknown. It also seems that he really did sell off most of his possessions (but apparently not his DVD player ) - and shipped the stuff to the buyers using the company's UPS account.

All I can do at this point is laugh. I really don't care about the $60 -- hell, I've gotten that much in entertainment value alone from this fiasco. I've taken actions to cause McCurley to have difficulty in any future eBay or PayPal activity, reported him to some kind of national internet fraud reporting agency (they claim that they will subsequently contact appropriate law enforcement agencies) and that's probably as far as things will go.

One last question, though... I have 80 characters available for eBay feedback. I am leaning towards: A thief, cheat, and a liar. Took my money, stole from his boss, and skipped town but I am concerned about starting a feedback pissing contest. I have 100% positive feedback now, and want to keep it that way. So is the satisfaction of sending such nasty feedback worth the risk to my own unblemished position, should he care to respond?

tanstaafl.

Damn the torpedoes!!!

but I am concerned about starting a feedback pissing contest. I have 100% positive feedback now, and want to keep it that way. So is the satisfaction of sending such nasty feedback worth the risk to my own unblemished position, should he care to respond?

Wait, you're telling me that...

- Ebay has a feedback system designed to inform others of scam artists, but...

- the same system allows the scam artists to damage your reputation even though they haven't purchased anything from you, and...

- therefore fear of retribution keeps the system from working?

Let him have it! My very first piece of feedback is negative because I left bad feedback. The guy supposedly sent me a soundboard recording of Collective Soul: Music In High Places. It sounded like a microphone placed in front of the TV. I streamed it from the web site and got a better quality recording. I felt like he lied about the product. Not as extreme as your situation, but if someone does have a problem with it, it's easy to explain.

Well that's kinda good news. Good that you have a satisfying response, bad that you've lost some money. just as well it wasn't much.
I'd be tempted to leave bad feedback. Let people know what a pathetic invertibrate this guy is. If he leaves you bad feedback, it's easy to explain and maybe even get ebay to do something about. But I was wrong about the other thing.