I'm tired of it. I can't STAND it! There are 2 words, THEN and THAN. They're COMPLETELY different words.

At that time: I was still in school then. Come at noon; I'll be ready then.
Next in time, space, or order; immediately afterward: watched the late movie and then went to bed.
In addition; moreover; besides: It costs $20, and then there's the sales tax to pay.
Used after but to qualify or balance a preceding statement: The star was nervous, but then who isn't on the first night of a new play.
In that case; accordingly: If traffic is heavy, then allow extra time.
As a consequence; therefore: The case, then, is closed.

Used after a comparative adjective or adverb to introduce the second element or clause of an unequal comparison: She is a better athlete than I.
Used to introduce the second element after certain words indicating difference: He draws quite differently than she does.
When. Used especially after hardly and scarcely: I had scarcely walked in the door than the commotion started.

It seems so many people don't even realize the word THAN exists. They use THEN in both speech and text. Every time I hear people misuse 'then' I get a nearly uncontrolable urg to 'knock their block off'. If people only took the correct usage of these words away from english 101 and 102 I'd think the classes worth the time.

That one makes me a lot less mad than the improper use of "it's". I just watched the movie "The Core", and at the end when the kid is uploading stuff to the net, there's an egregious misuse of the wrong "it's". I suppose it could have been argued that the kid had poor grammar, but still, that's irritating. I've said it before: In some circles, improper use of "it's" is grounds for justifiable homicide.

Anyway, you're right, I wish there were more folks going around whacking people with grammar sticks. You've been given an appropriate BBS title. One day, maybe you can be a full grammar cop like Bitt.

I'm honored.

This drives me absolutely crazy! I have to answer email support question, and it completely derails me when writers put "then" rather than "than". Sometimes I have to re-read a sentence a couple of times before I can understand what they're saying. Admittedly I've made the same mistake (typo, though, not grammar), but I always catch it in a re-read before sending an email out.

The only thing worse is when people TYPE IN ALL CAPS. I have no idea why they do this; I can only assume that there’s probably a technical reason why some customers have to write in a single case. It makes their emails very difficult to read, though. Incidentally, I also receive emails in all lower case, and while this bugs me it’s not near as bad as all caps. I do ok with it’s/its: while I always notice it, it doesn’t derail my brain. Of course I don’t have perfect grammar, but there are a few things that just really make text difficult to read.

*sigh* I just wish people would put more time into their emails before they click the “send” button. I do it for them!

This isn't a than/then comment, but similar. Just yesterday I was watching the football game and a commercial came on with an ex-football (American) player doing some sales pitch for a local car dealership. Direct quote:

"Nobody treats me as good than Bob's Toyota."

Now this is a football player, so maybe he got hit in the head a few too many times. But he assuredly had some kind of script for his advertisement, and because it was a recorded commercial, I am sure there were others who heard this and didn't notice the error. Or maybe they just didn't care? Maybe the original script called for "nobody treats me better than" or something, but how could anyone say the above sentence and not notice? Unbelievable.

I was often left puzzled by some of the emails I received when doing empeg support. Inappropriate terminology was a bigger problem though. Lots of people talked about using serial when they meant USB and vice-versa. The Ethernet jack was described as the phone socket by one user, which lead me to think they had a Rio Reciever.

I've been guilty of similar things though. One user wondered why I was talking about Apple Macs when I mentioned MAC addresses. Another queried what the phone number was for the 'empeg BBS' - I'd mentioned it on the phone and he assumed that it was an old-fashioned dial-up BBS.

The same can be said for "lose" and "loose". That one irritates me...

Another queried what the phone number was for the 'empeg BBS' - I'd mentioned it on the phone and he assumed that it was an old-fashioned dial-up BBS.

Damn, no wonder I couldn't find the door games here.

Loose

I used to go to church at Loose in Kent, halfway up the aisle was a fine embroidered banner, proclaiming: "Loose Women's Institute"

The misuse of "to" and "too" always gets to me.

I often accidentally misuse "advice" and "advise". I also struggle with "effect" and "affect".

I also struggle with "effect" and "affect".

Yes, that is a difficult pair to get straight. I have all kinds of problem with them.

I also struggle with "effect" and "affect".

ThE Effect. Once you've got that, it's pretty easy to keep them straight.

Matthew

At that time: I was still in school then.

Isn't that kind of an odd sentence? I don't think you need the "then" at all.

Besides, a cleaner sentence would be something like:
"I was still in school at that time."
That's much clearer and you don't need the colon.

From the Lousy Proofreading Department, I submit to you the November page of this year's Despair, Inc. "Demotivators" calendar, which has two (to me) glaring errors.

Friday 11/7: "Mark Twains nears completion of his first novel..."
Wednesday 11/19: "The 'Little Red-Haired Girl' is first introduced as the object of Charlie Brown's undying but inrequieted affection."

I guess I can understand how someone could goof up "unrequieted" (although the spell checker is a marvelous invention.) But "Mark Twains?" Sheesh, give the man some respect.

There's another one that I'm not quite sure is gramatically incorrect, maybe our Head Grammarian can provide a ruling?

Saturday 11/1: "Jeff Bezos reluctantly decides to name his new venture Amazon after his lawyer convinces him that his first choice, Cadabra, sounded too much like a dead end."

Is there any good reason to switch to past tense here? It seems awkward to me.

Inappropriate terminology was a bigger problem though.

I once sorted out a guy's problem with (RiscOS product) Datapower even after discovering he didn't really know what windows or folders were: "Click on the hard disk icon. Have you got a window of folders?" -- "Don't blind me with science, son. I've got a rectangle of suitcases." We went through the whole problem with me telling him which suitcases to open and what rectangles would appear.

Peter

"I was still in school then” was showing past tense. "I was younger then" or "That was then, this is now."

I'd have to say the number one argument for grammar would have to be the misuse of the word "at" at the end of a sentence/question. i.e. "Hey Billy, where are you at?"

Don't you know you're not supposed to end a sentence with a preposition?

(Meanwhile, I watch my grammar as I am writing this and second guessing my spelling...)

Heh, got that calendar on my wall right now. Thanks for reminding me to switch it to November.

Is there any good reason to switch to past tense here? It seems awkward to me.

You're correct, the tense should be the same for the whole sentence. For what it's worth, that's something I have trouble with in my own writing, a lot. Because when I'm doing technical writing (such as for a FAQ ), doing a "for instance" example, it's hard to keep that sort of thing straight. I try to make myself go back over it and proofread for things like that, but sometimes I miss it.

I think the 3rd is correct. An account of what is happening, with backround information. Note the use of the word after.

"advice" and "advise"

"effect" and "affect"

I think the 3rd is correct. An account of what is happening, with backround information. Note the use of the word after.

On that theory, "convinces" should have been "convinced". It's the inconsistency between "convinces" and "sounded" that's the whole problem.

Peter

Saturday 11/1: "Jeff Bezos reluctantly decides to name his new venture Amazon after his lawyer convinces him that his first choice, Cadabra, sounded too much like a dead end."

It's not just awkward, it's almost always wrong.

The only instance in which this could be correct is if, at the time, "Cadabra" had previously sounded too much like a dead-end, and, by the time the laywer expressed his opinion, had stopped sounding like a dead-end.

Since he decided not to use the name, it seems likely that this wasn't the case.

(Imagine it as dialogue: 'Gee, Jeff, "Cadabra" sounded too much like a dead end' vs. 'Gee, Jeff, "Cadabra" sounds too much like a dead end').

Then it should be "decided" as well, surely.

Then it should be "decided" as well, surely.

But "decides" is just the convention (more prevalent in the US than the UK) that headlines are written in the present tense: "Woman dies in fire", or whatever. Matey was arguing that being governed by "after" justified the switch in tense -- but two verbs were governed by after, and the writer only switched one of them. That's wrong in anyone's money.

Peter

Can someone explain the correct way of using lie (as in to position) vs. lay? My father always corrects me, but I never understand his description of why I'm wrong.

I have no idea if the following sentences are correct:

1)I layed next to the tree for more than an hour.

2)I went to lay down.

3)As I lay there looking at the ceiling a spider walked across my field of view.

4)I lied down in the mud.

I think they're right, but couldn't tell you why.

Help!

-Zeke

Thhbbbtt! That guy needed a good as kicking.

"Hey Billy, where are you at?"

Don't you know you're not supposed to end a sentence with a preposition?

Fine!

"Hey Billy, where are you at, asshole?"

Matey was arguing that being governed by "after" justified the switch in tense

I don't think it does.

...That's wrong in anyone's money

Agreed.

I have no idea if the following sentences are correct:

1)I layed next to the tree for more than an hour.

2)I went to lay down.

3)As I lay there looking at the ceiling a spider walked across my field of view.

4)I lied down in the mud.

First of all, strictly speaking, you have no idea whether the sentences are correct. "If" is used to introduce the conditional tense, or to express dependency of one outcome upon another: consider your sentence's similarity of structure to "I am lost if the next street isn't Broad Street".

Sometimes stuff like this differs between UK and US English ("gotten" vs "got", for instance), but in UK English, 1 and 4 are incorrect (they should both be "lay") and 2 was once OK but is now hopelessly archaic and unidiomatic (a Brit would use "lie").

You've used two different verbs here: to lie, an intransitive verb (often used with adjective "down"), with past tense "lay", and to lay, a transitive verb, past tense "laid". There's also the other meaning of "to lie" (the untruthfulness one), whose past tense is "lied".

In summary:

"I lie on the floor; I lay on the floor."
"I lay the vine leaves on the rice; I laid the vine leaves on the rice."
"I lie about my age; I lied about my age."

Peter

Peter,
So to recap (and be certain I have this):

lie/lay - indicating physical position
lay/laid - an action performed on an object (similar to 'to place')

I've never had much problem with the lie/lied usage, so I omitted it from my question.

layed - not a word (except perhaps as slang?)

Thanks much!

-Zeke

Because when I'm doing technical writing (such as for a FAQ ),

And take it from this professional tech writer with 17 years experience, you've done a helluva job on it!

The fact that you bring this up scares me.

There is not a single person on my IM list (20+ people) that type in complete sentences anymore. THe latest addition to my list said, and I quote:

In reply to:

---

you are one of the first ppl ive met who actually uses punctuation and caps in im

---

That speaks for itself. I can't spell worth a crap, but I know quite a bit of grammar, I'd like to believe.

(What gets me is the improper use of the apostrophe. Ugh.)

Me.

And take it from this professional tech writer with 17 years experience, you've done a helluva job on it!

Hey, thanks very much!

Greetings!

Someone sent this to me in email the other day. I was surprised how well it really works!

-=-=-
Aoccdrnig to rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be at the rghit pclae. The rset can be a total mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit a porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe.

Yep, a tactic that spammers will use to defeat Bayesian spam filters, I'm sure.

Snopes isn't so convinced it was a Cambridge study, though there's no mention of the rumor that the technique was discovered after the researchers tipped a few too many at The Wrestlers.

Deja Vu.

Yep, a tactic that spammers will use to defeat Bayesian spam filters, I'm sure.

The latest thing seems to be adding full stops and other random punctuation randomly scattered through the content. I was offered a gentlemen's enhancement therapy the other day which was claimed to be 1.00% effective. Oh, good-oh.

Peter

1.00% effective

Hey, every "little bit" helps! (Or so I'm told.)

Cool! I missed that! It is a neat study!

I received a spam message the other day in which the entire email, both header and body, contained nothing but characters with umlauts.

LOL, clearly written by an 80's heavy metal band.

I'd be happy if the spam filter ran the mail through a spell-checker. If it had too many misspellings, then it'd drop it as spam.

I guess that a sufficiently trained Bayesian filter approaches this (as the ham-database fills up with correctly-spelt words, and the spam-database collects their misspellings), but it'd be interesting to see it as a separate metric.