#19127 - 02/10/2000 00:12
lousy state of Mk2 now ... Where's the good news ?
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member
Registered: 09/06/1999
Posts: 197
Loc: Germany
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Hi there !
I just wanted to nag again, because the condition of my empeg is really lousy now:
The rotary knob is at home all the time, because the problem got worse and worse, by now i don't need sun to make it slip, even the empeg unit itself produces enough temperature to make it slip ...
The display really is bad without AR coating, so i got rid of the plastic, now i can read the display 80% of the time, not 50% like before ...
After all my Mk2 looks like crap now without knob and faceplate.
empeg, could you please offer help now or in near time for both problems ?!?!
I am really getting frustrated, we are not talking of sending someone to Mars, it is just AR coating and a proper knob !
Nils
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#19128 - 02/10/2000 03:28
Re: lousy state of Mk2 now ... Where's the good news ?
[Re: Nils]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/06/1999
Posts: 2993
Loc: Wareham, Dorset, UK
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Nils, It's really not so simple as "Just a Knob/Coating". Empeg are making a serious attempt to sort this out; there is a fix for both underway (and may even be ready at this point - Rob was hoping that they would be ready for the User's meet this weekend, unforch not  ). All products need a manufacturing lead time - think back to the point when the problems were first recognised (June? July? In any case sometime around 8-12 weeks ago) and then consider that the period of elapsed time may just be the lead time for finding a solution to the problem (not something you can sort out in 20 minutes), and then manufacture of the solution. Recent examples I can think of in the automotive world have been the trim problems BMW had with the recent revision of the Series 3, the electrical problems Alfa has had with the early examples of the 156, and various others. All newly introduced products have periods of time where the bugs are worked out of the manufacturing process, not the design itself. Given the fact that the Mk2 is virtually all new design, using a completely different manufacturing process, the number of problems have turned out to be relatively small, and are being actively chased down. Empeg themselves do not shirk the problem, and have gone considerably further in sorting out problems to early product than many others have - have you tried to get BMW to replace the peeling, separating seat trims on your brand new $48,000 BMW 3 changed recently? Owners have been removing seats and dumping them on the doorsteps of dealers to get them to listen to their complaints. I think empeg Ltd. are doing pretty well on that score. You have already been promised a fix, they are in the works, and empeg are pushing their suppliers daily to deliver as early as possible; they have invested in the fix at high cost and are going to take a large hit replacing just the knobs. Why are you complaining? I am not sure why you would describe it as "Lousy" - do none of the other features of the player merit a rather less than harsh description in a moderately aggressive posting? Perhaps you can source suppliers who can do AR coatings and mould up new knobs from scratch in less than 12 weeks? If so, then maybe you should be getting in touch with Rob & Hugo immediately, I am certain they will be extremely grateful....  PS Can I suggest that if this is a really big issue for you, that you fall back to good old-fashioned self-help - ie., think about the problem and try to resolve it with a temporary solution. - you could wipe the display lens with a really thin layer of vaseline. This should be sufficiently dispersive to reduce reflection (photographers have been using this since time began to do exactly this). Alternatively (if you don't like this admittedly less than attractive method), go to your local camera shop and buy yourself a bottle of diffuser coating, normally applied to the exposer plate of a photo-enlarger to improve diffusion of the light source. This is expensive, however. - go to your local auto supply. Buy yourself a tube of Loctite thread lock compound. Be sure to check that it is not cyano-acrylate based, as this type will attack plastic. Apply one drop to the shaft of the rotary, ensuring it is clean and free of grease first (likewise the inside of the knob, which you could clean with alcohol first), then push the knob home. Let it set according to instructions before using it. This compound works anerobically, and will give you some 70N/m torque resistance, which should be more than adequate to stop the knob rotating on the shaft. Since it is an automotive product and is designed for harsh environments, it is unlikely to be affected by the piffling amount of heat generated by the empeg player itself. One of the few remaining Mk1 owners...  #00015
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One of the few remaining Mk1 owners...  #00015
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#19129 - 02/10/2000 06:14
Re: lousy state of Mk2 now ... Where's the good news ?
[Re: schofiel]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 18/01/2000
Posts: 5680
Loc: London, UK
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We don't recommend that you actually glue the knob to the shaft of the rotary. This renders it almost impossible to remove the faceplate without causing damage to the display PCB.
If you do feel the need to do something like this, simply apply a small blob of adhesive to the shaft. Wait for it to dry, and then put the knob on. This should give you the traction required, without preventing removal of the knob.
Roger - not necessarily speaking for empeg
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-- roger
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#19130 - 02/10/2000 06:58
Re: lousy state of Mk2 now ... Where's the good news ?
[Re: Roger]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/06/1999
Posts: 2993
Loc: Wareham, Dorset, UK
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No, I know what you mean (don't glue it on) - but Loctite is a thread friction compound, not a glue (in spite of the fact it is based on chemicals that evolved into superglue a few years ago). It prevents vibration loosening threaded components due to co-rotation, but never "dries" the way a glue does. It has been the mechanic's friend since it was used by Rolls-Royce on the Merlin in WW2. They managed to reduce the overall weight of the engine by reducing the number of locknuts required simply to hold the engine together. I have sucessfully used it over the years to simply stop things coming loose - an example most recently was to stop the fingers of a clock simply flopping round their drive shafts. The fingers now "grip" properly, but it only takes a little tug along the axis of the shaft (axial) and the fingers come off immediately without (much) effort when the air seal breaks. Clock fingers (and their drive mechanisms) are fragile, don't forget, so Loctite should be suitable to locate and lock the control knob without permenantly fixing it to the shaft - as pointed out by Hugo or Rob a while back, this would then create the risk of the entire control ripping off the PCB and snapping the extractor/filler neck of the display panel when you tried to remove the (glued) knob. One of the few remaining Mk1 owners... #00015
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One of the few remaining Mk1 owners... #00015
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#19131 - 02/10/2000 12:11
Re: lousy state of Mk2 now ... Where's the good news ?
[Re: schofiel]
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enthusiast
Registered: 17/08/2000
Posts: 334
Loc: Seattle, WA. USA
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This "Loctite"... Is it a tar-like substance? I noticed there was a fair amount of this stuff on my old head unit when it was swapped out. Shortly thereafter I found the same substance dabbed on the screws of my rear speakers...
Kind of like black chewing gum... messy.
Brian H. Johnson
MK2 36GB Blue
"Born to Lose..."
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Brian H. Johnson
MK2 36GB Blue, currently on life support
"RIP RCR..."
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#19132 - 03/10/2000 02:35
Re: lousy state of Mk2 now ... Where's the good news ?
[Re: bootsy]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/06/1999
Posts: 2993
Loc: Wareham, Dorset, UK
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No. Loctite is sold in small tubes like superglue, but it is *not* a glue. It is usually a blue, or milky fluid and you only need a drop or two. I don't know what the substance is that you describe - "Black sticky stuff", maybe?  One of the few remaining Mk1 owners... #00015
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One of the few remaining Mk1 owners... #00015
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#19133 - 03/10/2000 10:40
Re: lousy state of Mk2 now ... Where's the good news ?
[Re: schofiel]
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member
Registered: 19/08/1999
Posts: 116
Loc: Silicon Valley
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>You have already been promised a fix, they are in the works, and empeg are
>pushing their suppliers daily to deliver as early as possible; they have
>invested in the fix at high cost and are going to take a large hit replacing
>just the knobs. Why are you complaining?
The alternative for Empeg is that many units get returned at the expense of the company. Can you imaging how long you would keep a $1300 Alpine or Kenwood stereo if the knob didn't work after 3 weeks? In fact Empeg is lucky that most of their customers understand that they ARE early-adopters and things like this happen. Otherwise they would have many units either returned or sitting in warranty service.
My display is fine - brighter in fact than my Alpine. But the knob is definitely disappointing. My new fix is holding so far: a 3mm x 4mm piece of scotch tape applied to the shaft. This seems to be enough to get a grip without needing excessive pressure to put the knob on the shaft.
-Hoagy.
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#19134 - 03/10/2000 18:04
Re: lousy state of Mk2 now ... Where's the good news ?
[Re: Nils]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 21/05/1999
Posts: 5335
Loc: Cambridge UK
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It took almost two months for the design company to come up with a (very ingenious) new knob design and it took six months to find a company able to AR coat injection moulded screens such that they remain compatible with ITO EMC coating afterwards. In fact the final samples (effectively the first production shots) of those screens arrived on my desk this morning.
Both items are being manufactured right now. Sorry, I can't magic them out of thin air, it takes time to manufacture things.
Rob
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#19135 - 04/10/2000 00:19
Re: lousy state of Mk2 now ... Where's the good news ?
[Re: rob]
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member
Registered: 09/06/1999
Posts: 197
Loc: Germany
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Now that *IS* good news ...
And despite what schoffel said, i am not going to risk my PCB with glueing the knob, because i heard the story of the poor guy ruining his plasma display with ripping out the rotary control together with the knob, trying to get access to the faceplate.
And *no* i am not going to spray/paint/cover my faceplate in any way, so it might get even worse, i am sorry, but i saw the responsability for this at empeg ltd, and it turns out that you guys are coming up with a solution now
:-)
( still seeing any frustration in that face up there ??? :-)
Okay, could you give us any info, whether we have to pay for this or not, and when/how to order the nexessary items ( AR display red + "anti-slip" knob ) ?
Thanks !
Nils
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#19136 - 04/10/2000 04:47
Re: lousy state of Mk2 now ... Where's the good news ?
[Re: Nils]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/06/1999
Posts: 2993
Loc: Wareham, Dorset, UK
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Gaaah!!! Once, and once only: LOCTITE IS NOT GLUE.When did I ever say it is glue? Can you point me to the thread where I state explicitly that it is glue? Please? One of the few remaining Mk1 owners... #00015
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One of the few remaining Mk1 owners... #00015
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#19137 - 05/10/2000 17:04
Re: lousy state of Mk2 now ... Where's the good ne
[Re: rob]
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enthusiast
Registered: 12/11/1999
Posts: 261
Loc: Bay Area, California
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Is there an ETA then, on when existing MkII owners can expect their replacement AR faceplates to arrive?
Not "impatient", just trying to get a feel for the timeframe. :)
D
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#19138 - 06/10/2000 01:37
Re: lousy state of Mk2 now ... Where's the good ne
[Re: Dredd]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 21/05/1999
Posts: 5335
Loc: Cambridge UK
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They're not replacement panels as such - if you want an AR coated panel you'll have to buy one. The slipping knob is clearly a design flaw, but the front panel was designed to be exactly as shipped - AR isn't mentioned anywhere in the product description. We didn't expect there to be such a problem, and in any case we were unable to find anyone that could get an AR coating to stick to an injection moulded part - and leave the part suitable for ITO coating on the rear face - until a couple of weeks ago.
In recognition of the difficulties some people are having with the uncoated panel, we will offer a significant discount to anyone that has purchased an uncoated panel (including replacement panel kits). The usual price is $32 but we expect to reduce this to $10 for the aforementioned clients. Availability is now expected to be within 1 - 2 weeks (the panels are made, it depends when the coaters can slot them into their schedule). Postage will be charged at cost - recorded airmail generally takes 2 - 5 days, and would cost around $6 to the USA.
Rob
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#19139 - 06/10/2000 07:50
Re: lousy state of Mk2 now ... Where's the good ne
[Re: rob]
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enthusiast
Registered: 12/11/1999
Posts: 261
Loc: Bay Area, California
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In reply to:
They're not replacement panels as such - if you want an AR coated panel you'll have to buy one.
I'll reiterate that this is just completely wrong. Mk.I users all had AR panels, and since putting a non-AR panel in an automobile seems inconceivable, it was safe to assume for us that the Mk.II would ALSO have AR panels. This IS a design flaw, not a "feature", and should be treated as such.
In reply to:
AR isn't mentioned anywhere in the product description.
No, but one might also note (I haven't done the research yet), that when you listed off the many times "what's changed from Mk.I to Mk.II" that you never mentioned that the AR coating was being removed, in which case, the AR coating was implied by its lack of mention in that context.
Furthermore, even if the AR wasn't mentioned, the tuner was, so was voice recognition, and we've been notoriously patient about letting Empeg slide on these two topics. For you to sit there and point to the marketing materials as the Holy Scripture of what you have to provide and then forget that you're NOT currently providing what the marketing materials say you will provide. (For example, if you're going to play that game, then I want my FM Tuner _TODAY_, not next week, not next month, TODAY, because the marketing materials say, and I quote:
The player has a modular tuner interface, for which an FM module is initially available. The FM module includes RDS (Radio Data System) for station naming, auto re-tuning and traffic announcements - RDS stations are commonplace in Europe and steadily increasing in the USA.
You are directly claiming that it IS available, not that it will be available at some future date.
Empeg has a long history of "doing the right thing" in terms of customer service, but to tell us that you don't owe us AR panels because you didn't promise them to us, despite the fact that it would have been an obvious assumption (based both on experience with the Mk.I, and with knowledge that real-world needs dictated AR panels), just seems to go completely against everything I have ever thought about your committment to service.
I have to be honest when I say that this situation would give me cause to SERIOUSLY rethink my preaching of the unit to co-workers and friends, because Empeg is completely dropping the ball on a serious customer service issue. Yes, I understand the AR panels cost more, but - really - that is NOT our problem. That's Empeg's problem for not designing the unit right the first time.
Empeg's behaviour in this would be like Firestone demanding that people pay money to exchange the tires on their Ford Explorers. It's just ludicrous.
D
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#19140 - 06/10/2000 09:22
Re: lousy state of Mk2 now ... Where's the good ne
[Re: Dredd]
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old hand
Registered: 12/01/2000
Posts: 1079
Loc: Dallas, TX
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I see your point but personally I don't mind spending the 15 or 16 dollars to get an AR coated panel. I think they shipped the mk2 without the AR coating because they couldnt find a manufacturer that would handle their specific needs at that time. If they had waited, you would still be waiting for your player right now. I would rather have the unit without the a/r coating for this last month than not have it at all-I've been waiting since december for this player and some of you have been waiting even longer than that.
Sean
Empeg 12 gig green 080000078
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#19141 - 06/10/2000 09:42
Re: lousy state of Mk2 now ... Where's the good ne
[Re: Terminator]
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enthusiast
Registered: 12/11/1999
Posts: 261
Loc: Bay Area, California
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That's not Empeg's argument, though. That implies that they intended all along to ship with AR but were just looking for a mfr. who could do it, in which case, they should have said "the first units won't ship with AR panels, so if you want AR, you should wait."
I would rather wait for quality than have something that is seriously misdesigned shipped to me more quickly. I'm willing to accept the lower-quality rushed handiwork when I know there's a committment to make good on it. Given Empeg's past track record, I thought that was logical. Where the early units had failings, Empeg would make right by them. Now I see that this is NOT the case.
Personally, I can certainly afford the cost of the AR panel, but its the principle of the matter, that I shouldn't HAVE to... any way you look at it, it is Empeg's fault that I need a new panel, either because they misdesigned it by not including AR, or because they shipped early units without AR without notifying us that we could opt for later units which would have AR.
If I DO have to spend the cash to get an AR panel, then Empeg can rest assured that it will be the LAST of my cash they see.
D
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#19142 - 06/10/2000 11:51
Re: lousy state of Mk2 now ... Where's the good ne
[Re: Dredd]
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addict
Registered: 16/08/1999
Posts: 453
Loc: NRW, Germany
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FLAME!!!
Go buy a Sony or some other brand player and see if they will update you device when they make a design change!! You won't even be able to PAY to get the new display or whatever. I think empeg have been and are being VERY good! And besides they're still a very small company just trying to get started. Do you want to kill them off and the empegCar along with it? Give the guys a chance!
(list 6284, Mk1 S/N 00299 4GB blue [for sale]. Mk2 S/N 080000094 6GB blue)
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(list 6284, Mk1 S/N 00299 4GB blue [sold]. Mk2 S/N 080000094 20GB blue)
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#19143 - 06/10/2000 12:13
Re: lousy state of Mk2 now ... Where's the good ne
[Re: Derek]
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enthusiast
Registered: 12/11/1999
Posts: 261
Loc: Bay Area, California
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In reply to:
Go buy a Sony or some other brand player and see if they will update you device when they make a design change!!
This is less of a "design change" as a "design flaw", and you can bet that Sony would never dream of shipping stuff without AR panels, because they know that -- DUH -- cars are exposed to the sun, the sun is bright, and the screen needs to be anti-reflective.
In reply to:
And besides they're still a very small company just trying to get started.
... and making very bad customer-service decisions isn't going to get them any larger.
In reply to:
Do you want to kill them off and the empegCar along with it?
No, but if replacing $30 parts is going to kill them off, they're far closer to oblivion than I can affect in any way.
D
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#19144 - 06/10/2000 13:30
Re: lousy state of Mk2 now ... Where's the good ne
[Re: Dredd]
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enthusiast
Registered: 29/09/2000
Posts: 313
Loc: Belgium/Holland
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Keep racking up those fantasies man ... Who knows, you might actually convince someone if you keep it up long enough...
Don't look at me though cause I have nothing but positive things to say about Rob and the other guys@empeg not to mention their product.
And if you think empeg is not doing it's job you get me a software upgrade for my Nokia 7110, that thing crashes more then an XT trying to run Windows 2000 ...
The software for my empeg is just a click away ... Maybe some things got delayed, maybe some things are not on it that you took for granted ... But then in a few months it will have all that was promised and more so stop you bellyaching.
Hans
Mk2 - Blue - 080000431
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Mk2
This message will selfdestruct in 5 seconds to prevent reproduction.
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#19145 - 06/10/2000 13:35
Re: lousy state of Mk2 now ... Where's the good ne
[Re: Dredd]
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veteran
Registered: 16/06/1999
Posts: 1222
Loc: San Francisco, CA
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In reply to:
This is less of a "design change" as a "design flaw", and you can bet that Sony would never dream of shipping stuff without AR panels, because they know that -- DUH -- cars are exposed to the sun, the sun is bright, and the screen needs to be anti-reflective.
Just the record, my blue empeg w/o AR coating is MUCH easier to read in the sunlight then my sony cd player..
-mark
MK2: 36gb
Tivo: 90gb
CPU: 120gb
...I think drive manufacturers love me!
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#19146 - 06/10/2000 13:49
Re: lousy state of Mk2 now ... Where's the good ne
[Re: EngelenH]
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enthusiast
Registered: 12/11/1999
Posts: 261
Loc: Bay Area, California
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In reply to:
And if you think empeg is not doing it's job you get me a software upgrade for my Nokia 7110, that thing crashes more then an XT trying to run Windows 2000 ...
The software for my empeg is just a click away ... Maybe some things got delayed, maybe some things are not on it that you took for granted ... But then in a few months it will have all that was promised and more so stop you bellyaching.
Who said anything about software? Software is (generally) a "Cost-less" proposition (except where additional licensing/re-licensing fees are necessary, as in the case of the audio formats Rob and co. are talking about). I would expect (and indeed, get - kudos to Empeg on this front) software updates for free unless I'm paying for some new feature (WMA, for example, although I'm not sure if that has a license fee associated with it) that I didn't previously have.
If you have a phone whose display is consistently unreadable, though, you would take it back to the vendor/mfr, and expect them to replace or repair it to make it readable. THAT's what we're talking about here that the Empeg folks are (apparently) not willing to do.
D
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#19147 - 06/10/2000 14:33
Re: lousy state of Mk2 now ... Where's the good ne
[Re: Dredd]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31565
Loc: Seattle, WA
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I'm torn on this issue. I see the consumer's point of view: An AR front panel is important enough that it should have been there to begin with. I mean, I'm still using my Mk1 and its AR panel is great- and I know that things would be pretty awful if it didn't have the AR coating. On the other hand, the Empeg folks were satisfied with the non-AR design and called it "done". If folks hadn't been making noises here on the BBS about it, and if Empeg hadn't said anything about AR panels possibly becoming available soon, there would have been no issue. If Empeg had simply said "That's the way it is, there's no AR coating on the Mark 2, sorry", then folks here wouldn't be screaming and asking for it for free. My guess is that if Empeg shipped a free AR panel to every current MK2 owner, they'd be taking a bath to the tune of between $10,000 and $15,000 US dollars when you figure in all the associated costs. Perhaps more, if there have been more than 1000 units shipped already (have there?). They've already had some problems with having to re-ship incorrect serial cables, send extra ISO connectors, etc., so perhaps they're already stinging from the costs associated with that. I don't know what The Right Thing To Do is in this situation. Should Empeg be asked to take that big of a bath on something that they didn't originally design into the product? Should some customers just expect to live without AR? This is a very tough call. Empeg's current offer of shipping the AR panels for more or less "shipping/handling cost" sounds like a good compromise from that standpoint. But from the consumer's point of view, it sounds like you're getting charged for a warranty item. In the meantime, there are users out there with Empegs that have their front panels and their knobs removed because of this and other issues, waiting for a resolution... ___________
Tony Fabris
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#19148 - 06/10/2000 14:46
Re: lousy state of Mk2 now ... Where's the good ne
[Re: tfabris]
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enthusiast
Registered: 12/11/1999
Posts: 261
Loc: Bay Area, California
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Tony,
Simple question:
Should Firestone be asked to take a bath on something they looked at and called "finished"?
The cost of making good on faulty manufacture or faulty design is a "cost of doing business". It's something that a business builds into their overhead (or at least, they do if they want to survive). I don't have lot of compassion for a company that took $2,000 of my money crying over how much it costs to replace a $30 item that's -- essentially -- hosed.
In reality, US consumer laws (and potentially UK) would permit owners to simply demand refunds (usability for marketed purpose type laws, since cars are exposed to the sun, you could make a case that it isn't usable on a sunny day with the top down). Which hurts more? People asking for refunds or spending $30.00 on replacing the part?
Which hurts more? Thirty dollars in replacement parts, or the potential lost sales from bad word-of-mouth about customer service?
D
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#19149 - 06/10/2000 15:17
Re: lousy state of Mk2 now ... Where's the good ne
[Re: Dredd]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31565
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Right, like I said, I see the consumer point of view. But you're stretching the analogy too far by comparing it to a defective tire. The panel isn't defective, it's just not as good as the new version that's coming out soon. The only reason you consider it to be defective is because they're planning on shipping a better version. And if they hadn't told us about the better version, no one would have anything to complain about. Your other point is well taken- is it cheaper to send out a bunch of $30.00 parts or to take returns on a $1500.00 product? That's really the root of the problem. Companies have to take cold, hard looks at questions like that. How likely will they get returns from customers in sunny climates? Are they willing to risk alienating customers and potential customers over it? There's one other thing to consider that I hadn't thought about until now. They do those panels in batches. They probably don't have enough batched right now to cover shipping them to all Mark2 owners and still be able to get through the current queue. They're probably worried about being able to cover all their bases with current stocking projections. ___________
Tony Fabris
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#19150 - 06/10/2000 15:17
Re: lousy state of Mk2 now ... Where's the good ne
[Re: Dredd]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 23/08/2000
Posts: 3826
Loc: SLC, UT, USA
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I wanted to stay out of this, and it's clear that you are gonna be pissed about it until you get a free AR faceplate, but here's my input: The AR faceplate won't make your display magically readable in direct sunlight. This is a problem in every head unit i've ever seen. I can read my empeg display with no AR in direct sun, with effort, but no more effort than my high end sony CD head unit, which is actually more washed out in the same sunlight. Your implications that the faceplate is essentially "hosed" without the AR is where i find fault in your otherwise good argument. If you base your argument solely on the fact that it was assumed by you that because the mark 1 had AR that the mark 2 would despite it not being advertised as such, that also falls through, and bringing in the fact that the tuner was advertised is irrelevant to this issue, but is indeed a very valid point. (i for one would rather wait and recieve a much better more featured tuner than get a crappy one NOW.) It's not a faulty design simply because in some instances it doesn't work as well as you'd like it to. Had empeg claimed it was there and it wasn't, you'd be 100% correct. Comparing it to Firestone is a stretch... a better comparison would be if the black color on the tires faded to a gray in a short amount of time after you purchased the tires. Saying it's like the tire ripping to shreds is too much. If the empeg caught your car on fire, that would be a valid point. empeg is making good on the actual faulty design points, such as the loom wires coming loose, the rotating knob problem, and the null modem cable mix up to name just a few. If those aren't examples enough to prove how commited they are to making good on their mistakes, then nothing else will be. The replacement screen will cost you ~$16. I personally don't even feel i need the AR screen, but if i did, 16 bucks would be nothing to pay for a feature that wasn't promised you in the first place. For the amount of service Empeg is giving for free, you should be more than happy to not even have to pay full price. Most companies would charge you a price for even a quarter of the amount of service they have been giving. Suck it up man.
|| loren.cox
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#19151 - 06/10/2000 15:27
Re: lousy state of Mk2 now ... Where's the good ne
[Re: tfabris]
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enthusiast
Registered: 12/11/1999
Posts: 261
Loc: Bay Area, California
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In reply to:
The only reason you consider it to be defective is because they're planning on shipping a better version.
No, actually, I've been saying it right along. I'm one of the people who got them LOOKING at replacing the AR in the first place.
In reply to:
Your other point is well taken- is it cheaper to send out a bunch of $30.00 parts or to take returns on a $1500.00 product? That's really the root of the problem. Companies have to take cold, hard looks at questions like that. How likely will they get returns from customers in sunny climates? Are they willing to risk alienating customers and potential customers over it?
Actually, the real math works out to:
Where n(R) is the number of returns, and n(S) is the number sold:
Is ( 1500*n(R) > 30*n(S) )
If the answer is yes, then the math is an easy no-brainer. You do it, because, for no other reason, sending the hardware is a mathematical success.
Where the above equation is NOT true, then you have to modify it to include n(pS), the number of POTENTIAL (but lost) sales and do:
( 1500*(n(R)+n(pS)) > 30*n(S) )
In THAT scenario, it almost always works out to be beneficial to send the replacement hardware as well.
On the issue of inventory... that's a whole different thing... saying "we've got these coming, and we're trying to ration everything so that we minimize the number of non-AR panels that go out on units, while still replacing the non-AR's that are out there at no charge, so it may take longer to get it to you". That's a FAR cry from what we're hearing now, which is "bite us, if you don't like the non-AR, cough up currency".
D
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#19152 - 06/10/2000 16:48
Re: lousy state of Mk2 now ... Where's the good ne
[Re: Dredd]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5539
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
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I would expect ... software updates for free
Man, what planet do you come from?
I am racking what few brains I have and I cannot think of a single software supplier (besides empeg) who provides "software updates for free". Most don't even provide bug fixes for free -- you just wait until the next iteration of the software comes out and then you pay more for that than you did for the original version of the software in the first place.
I don't expect empeg to provide me with anything after the sale, so long as the product works as advertised. It does, so I'm satisfied, and any extras they offer (such as improved viewing capabilities in sunlight at highly subsidized prices, or improvements/additional capabilities in the software) are really nice bonuses. You certainly won't find me complaining about not getting things for free that they never promised in the first place.
tanstaafl.
"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
_________________________
"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
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#19153 - 06/10/2000 16:51
Re: lousy state of Mk2 now ... Where's the good ne
[Re: Dredd]
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enthusiast
Registered: 29/09/2000
Posts: 313
Loc: Belgium/Holland
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Oh my god !
Rob send this guy an AR faceplate and contact me about payment arrangements so we can end this thread...
Hans
Mk2 - Blue - 080000431
_________________________
Mk2
This message will selfdestruct in 5 seconds to prevent reproduction.
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#19154 - 06/10/2000 18:30
Re: lousy state of Mk2 now ... Where's the good ne
[Re: tanstaafl.]
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enthusiast
Registered: 12/11/1999
Posts: 261
Loc: Bay Area, California
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I dunno who you buy software from, but I've had my OS upgraded automagically at no additional cost, most of the applications I own have upgrades built into the purchase cost, etc.
Listen to your own statement... like "improved viewing quality in sunlight" is an add-on feature. What planet do YOU live on where viewing in sunlight is not the NORM?
D
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#19155 - 06/10/2000 18:32
Re: lousy state of Mk2 now ... Where's the good ne
[Re: EngelenH]
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enthusiast
Registered: 12/11/1999
Posts: 261
Loc: Bay Area, California
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Actually, I have to be honest... if it is just me who ends up with a free one for bitching, I won't stop bitching, because then Empeg is still not doing the right thing. I've already said I can happily afford one, but the issue is more than just "what Derek needs or wants".
Giving me one to "shut me up" isn't providing good customer service for all the rest of the people who need them, which is the issue.
D
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#19157 - 06/10/2000 20:58
Re: lousy state of Mk2 now ... Where's the good ne
[Re: Dredd]
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old hand
Registered: 12/01/2000
Posts: 1079
Loc: Dallas, TX
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"isn't providing good customer service"
Have you ever worked in retail before? I guess your definition of customer service is quite different from mine. They have fixed for free everything else that has gone wrong with the player quickly. The screen is not hosed or broken because it is somewhat hard to read in sunlight-so are many other car stereos. I can say for sure that empeg is providing great customer service, even if I have to pay 16 dollars for an a/r panel. The company I work for is charging 60 bucks to put a/r coating on small lenses a few inches across. 10 dollars seems cheap to me. I don't think they ever advertised an a/r panel for the mark2, but on the other hand, they didn't point it out either. Im hoping it was just an oversight.
Sean
Empeg 12 gig green 080000078
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#19158 - 06/10/2000 21:31
Re: lousy state of Mk2 now ... Where's the good ne
[Re: Terminator]
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enthusiast
Registered: 12/11/1999
Posts: 261
Loc: Bay Area, California
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In reply to:
Have you ever worked in retail before?
Yes. Often.
In reply to:
I guess your definition of customer service is quite different from mine. They have fixed for free everything else that has gone wrong with the player quickly.
That's called "Warranty repairs". It's something they're legally obligated to provide you, based on the warranty that came with the unit.
In reply to:
The screen is not hosed or broken because it is somewhat hard to read in sunlight-so are many other car stereos.
It _IS_ hosed, as many people have pointed out (Although they may not be as vociferous as I insofar as their belief that the replacement parts should be free of charge)
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#19159 - 07/10/2000 03:41
Re: lousy state of Mk2 now ... Where's the good ne
[Re: Terminator]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 19/05/1999
Posts: 3457
Loc: Palo Alto, CA
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One of the issues is not the cost of the AR coating, but the cost of the ITO coating (the conductive one which means the player passes FCC/CE approval) - this costs more than the panel and AR coat combined.
Selling the new panels for $10+shipping works out at a small loss for us when handling is bought into the equation. Sending them out to everyone is probably unlikely - not everyone suffers from the problem (I don't, for example; the AR panel I've been testing makes the screen look slightly fuzzy & I think I prefer it clear), and not everyone will want to take their unit apart to fit a new panel. We may make them available to those who ask - this really needs more discussion internally.
Hugo
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#19160 - 07/10/2000 07:28
Re: lousy state of Mk2 now ... Where's the good ne
[Re: Dredd]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 21/05/1999
Posts: 5335
Loc: Cambridge UK
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Well this was predictable, right down to the names on the posts.
This is why major brands NEVER announce continuous production upgrades or changes. This is not a warranty issue - the Mk.2 panel was designed without an AR coat because we were advised that the process would not work with an injection moulded part. Even without AR we found the Mk.2 display more readable in sunlight than that of the Mk.1, not least because it is around 50% brighter.
When I eventually tracked down a lab that could provide the AR coat it seemed a logical production enhancement to make. The product will continue to improve over time, and in the long run late purchasers do get a better deal - but early purchasers have their own reasons to get onboard when they do. That's a personal decision that I'm sure you thought through at the time you purchased an empeg car player.
I would point out that the original batch of Mk.2 players had a screen that definitely proved unusable - far too dark - and it was replaced free of charge.
I have never intentionally stated or implied that AR coated panels would be supplied free of charge to previous clients. I have said that they would be subsidised to a significant degree. They will be.
Even when you get your AR coated screen I'm sure you'll be back on here complaining about it. It won't work miracles. I've never seen any display technology that will remain visible in the direct Californian summer sun, although the AR coated screen does remain visible in direct sunlight here in the UK. You will also, no doubt, complain that it makes the text look a bit fuzzy. It certainly does just that, as did the Mk.1 screen.
By the way, for the record, I just visited Cambridge Car Audio and had a look at the couple of dozen head units they have on display there. Very few of them had any apparant AR coating, and many relatively expensive heads were unreadable if you tilted your head such that the flourescent lights reflected off of them. The only heads that appeared to have a serious AR coat were multimedia units, with full size motorised screens that pop out. Sony, Alpine, and the rest probably don't get too many complaints because it is assumed that nobody there will take any notice.
Anyway, I'll go to the directors on Monday and pass on your feedback. Your views may carry a little more weight if anyone else had agreed with you (Tony - get off that fence! You are allowed to disagree with us from time to time!).
I'm sorry that the other aspects of our product and service haven't compensated for the objections you have over this issue. Feel free to follow up in email if you have serious intentions towards a refund.
Rob
(PS. I'm at home, I'm not officially representing the company right now, and I'm in a bad mood because Michael took Mikka by 7/1000ths in the last 3 minutes of qualifying).
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#19161 - 07/10/2000 08:01
Re: lousy state of Mk2 now ... Where's the good ne
[Re: rob]
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enthusiast
Registered: 12/11/1999
Posts: 261
Loc: Bay Area, California
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(Jumping around here a bit) In reply to:
Feel free to follow up in email if you have serious intentions towards a refund.
I never claimed I wanted a refund (and you'll note that I said that if I had to pay for it, I would, but it would also be the last money that would go Empeg's way).
In reply to:
I have never intentionally stated or implied that AR coated panels would be supplied free of charge to previous clients. I have said that they would be subsidised to a significant degree. They will be.
Never claimed you ever DID say they'd be free. The issue was whether they SHOULD be free.
In reply to:
The product will continue to improve over time, and in the long run late purchasers do get a better deal - but early purchasers have their own reasons to get onboard when they do. That's a personal decision that I'm sure you thought through at the time you purchased an empeg car player.
I was under the impression, given past experiences with Empeg, that if there were design flaws, etc., that they would be handled.
In reply to:
Even when you get your AR coated screen I'm sure you'll be back on here complaining about it. It won't work miracles. I've never seen any display technology that will remain visible in the direct Californian summer sun, although the AR coated screen does remain visible in direct sunlight here in the UK. You will also, no doubt, complain that it makes the text look a bit fuzzy. It certainly does just that, as did the Mk.1 screen.
I had no problems (or should I say, no complaints) with the Mk.I's "fuzziness". Never had even noticed it really. And I'm very capable of eating crow... if it doesn't solve the problem I'll be the first to come on here and apologize for giving you guys a hassle over something which didn't help anyway. It falls into the category of "this certainly sounds like it would solve the problem I'm seeing in the unit".
You'll note that I was also quite willing to help you in testing them "in direct California sun", and offered once or twice on the board and once or twice in e-mail. Never heard a word back on that, so unless someone else tested them for you (a possibility I'm not ignorant of) then the functionality under the conditions here are a big unknown when they could have been fairly well determined.
In reply to:
Anyway, I'll go to the directors on Monday and pass on your feedback. Your views may carry a little more weight if anyone else had agreed with you (Tony - get off that fence! You are allowed to disagree with us from time to time!).
Given the response other people have gotten with their complaints here in the past, I think it just appears that people are unwilling to speak up publicly and air their contrary opinions.... Hell, I think that's true in general these days, we're conditioned not to stand up and make noise about something, we're a race of sheep.
And yeah, Tony, get off the damn fence.
I don't want you to take this personal, Rob. My dealings with everyone at Empeg have always been stellar, with this being the exception. I have nothing against "you" or anyone else there, I simply think the company is making a short-sighted decision as to how to handle it. And, like I said, if when I get my panel, it doesn't solve the problem, and it turns out I fussed over nothing, you'll see me on here apologizing profusely, but until then, I stand by my opinion that this is the wrong way to handle the issue.
D
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#19162 - 07/10/2000 08:17
Re: lousy state of Mk2 now ... Where's the good ne
[Re: Dredd]
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addict
Registered: 09/06/1999
Posts: 483
Loc: Guernsey
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In reply to:
This is less of a "design change" as a "design flaw", and you can bet that Sony would never dream of shipping stuff without AR panels...
Yeah, and sony never make mistakes with shipping stuff with design flaws...
I heard that the DVD playback on the Japanese PS2 was so bad that the usa and euro versions are having a dedicated decoder chip added... (Mind you, this is from the register, so might be a false rumour)
Think the people with the Japanese ps2's will get free upgrades?
Jazz
(List 112, Mk2 12 gig #40. Mk1 4 gig #30. Mk3 1.6 16v)
_________________________
Jazz
(List 112, Mk2 42 gig #40. Mk1 4 gig #30. Mk3 1.6 16v)
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#19163 - 07/10/2000 08:24
Re: lousy state of Mk2 now ... Where's the good ne
[Re: Jazzwire]
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enthusiast
Registered: 12/11/1999
Posts: 261
Loc: Bay Area, California
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In reply to:
I heard that the DVD playback on the Japanese PS2 was so bad that the usa and euro versions are having a dedicated decoder chip added... (Mind you, this is from the register, so might be a false rumour)
Think the people with the Japanese ps2's will get free upgrades?
Actually, IIRC, yes, they will, because that's an EXCUSE. The PS2's DVD players were, I believe, capable of playing any region discs (in violation of Sony's DVD licenses) which means that they're probably pumping up rumors of their own minor problem to get people to swap out for the new chips which don't violate their license to use the DVD technology.
D
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#19164 - 07/10/2000 09:48
Re: lousy state of Mk2 now ... Where's the good ne
[Re: rob]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31565
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Tony - get off that fence! You are allowed to disagree with us from time to time!Okay. (hop) Let's look which side I landed on, shall we? Ah whaddya know... After hearing all the arguments from all sides, I think that Empeg is doing the right thing for offering the AR panels for only ~$16. It's an upgrade part being offered as a discount to existing owners. I don't mean to invalidate anyone's feelings- I can understand and empathize with the feelings of those who think the panels should be free. From that point of view, there are some very valid arguments. ___________
Tony Fabris
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#19165 - 07/10/2000 10:46
Re: lousy state of Mk2 now ... Where's the good ne
[Re: Dredd]
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enthusiast
Registered: 27/09/1999
Posts: 200
Loc: Berkeley, CA
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This is less of a "design change" as a "design flaw", and you can bet that Sony would never dream of shipping stuff without AR panels, because they know that -- DUH -- cars are exposed to the sun, the sun is bright, and the screen needs to be anti-reflective.
Nope. The last Sony head unit (a 2-DIN CD/Cassette combo) I installed had a very shiny faceplate. It was also convex, and had a very bright custom-masked VFD, you never lost the whole display, but in a convertible the glare is annoying.
I agree that shipping without an AR coating was a questionable design descision, but I applaud empeg ltd. for subsidising the replacement panels.
-Zandr
Mk.I #150
Mk.II #39
_________________________
-Zandr
Mk.IIa #010101243 currently getting a 500GB SSD. More spares in the shed.
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#19166 - 07/10/2000 14:16
Some flamewar stuff. Pointless factor: High
[Re: Dredd]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 21/05/1999
Posts: 5335
Loc: Cambridge UK
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Never claimed you ever DID say they'd be free. The issue was whether they SHOULD be free.
Ah, I just wondered why you waited over two months to say anything about it then. I've said lots of times that there would be a charge, the best time to complain isn't at the last minute after a project has been budgeted and is about to ship.
I was under the impression, given past experiences with Empeg, that if there were design flaws, etc., that they would be handled.
First 50 players - new buttons, knob, screen and fascia. First 1000 players - new rotary knob. First 250 (ish) players - replacement serial cable. The few customers affected by powerdown spike problem - new ISO/Diode cable. All free of charge, including shipping and handling.
All new products have glitches - those were ours, and I believe we have acted with exemplary conduct. We've had no more than a handful of complaints about daylight visibility on the Mk.2, and most of those relate to red and amber screens which we acknowledge are not as bright as the blue or green.
Never heard a word back on that, so unless someone else tested them for you (a possibility I'm not ignorant of) then the functionality under the conditions here are a big unknown when they could have been fairly well determined.
We don't have any AR and ITO coated screens yet, and neither will we before the full production run. We can't supply non-ITO coated screens to clients, especially not in the USA - if a competitor picked up on that they could have the FCC shut down our export channel into the US. In any case we have tested the screens in the workshop and have selected the optimum compromise between reflection diffusion and light opacity - this is as good as it gets without rendering the display unreadable.
Given the response other people have gotten with their complaints here in the past, I think it just appears that people are unwilling to speak up publicly and air their contrary opinions.... Hell, I think that's true in general these days, we're conditioned not to stand up and make noise about something, we're a race of sheep.
There I was thinking we had a reputation for great customer responsiveness. I can only think of one issue that we put our foot down over - the visual switching thing - and we came up with a compromise that most people are happy with. But then, they're all sheep, right?
I don't want you to take this personal, Rob. My dealings with everyone at Empeg have always been stellar, with this being the exception.
I think you have this completely out of proportion, and I find it really quite offensive that you can go from a "stellar experience" to vehement condemnation over this issue. In effect you're telling us that no matter how hard we work, how great a product we develop, how great support we offer - despite all that if we make one slip in your eyes (a $10 charge for a new panel) you will turn your back on empeg, withdraw all of the reccommendations you have made to your friends, and presumably run us down to anyone that will listen. With friends like that, who needs enemies?!
Rob
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#19167 - 07/10/2000 14:42
Re: Some flamewar stuff. Pointless factor: High
[Re: rob]
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enthusiast
Registered: 12/11/1999
Posts: 261
Loc: Bay Area, California
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Ah, I just wondered why you waited over two months to say anything about it then. I've said lots of times that there would be a charge, the best time to complain isn't at the last minute after a project has been budgeted and is about to ship.I believe if you'll look back at the record, I have said this in the past, right around time I first complained (in July) about the glare issue with the top down. Please also note here where I'm very clear on my feelings as far back as 21 August with jbauer agreeing with me that they should be comp'ed. There I was thinking we had a reputation for great customer responsiveness. I can only think of one issue that we put our foot down over - the visual switching thing - and we came up with a compromise that most people are happy with. But then, they're all sheep, right?All of them? Certainly not, but anyone who MIGHT have agreed with me sees the pasting I get from the "kiss-ass" end of the spectrum and doesn't bother. I'll even stipulate that the MAJORITY of Empeg owners don't give a damn one way or the other on the AR panel issue. We don't have any AR and ITO coated screens yet, and neither will we before the full production run.Silly Question: How do you have any idea then if what you're paying lots of money to produce is even going to work? I ask that not to be sarcastic, but because I honestly am interested in the answer. If you've never had ne with both coatings, and you CAN'T get one until you get the whole production run, how do you know it'll work at all? Again, that's not sarcasm, that's an honest desire to understand that process. We can't supply non-ITO coated screens to clients, especially not in the USA - if a competitor picked up on that they could have the FCC shut down our export channel into the US.That makes sense (I guess, I'm assuming the ITO coating is some FCC mandated thing). I think you have this completely out of proportion, and I find it really quite offensive that you can go from a "stellar experience" to vehement condemnation over this issue. In effect you're telling us that no matter how hard we work, how great a product we develop, how great support we offer - despite all that if we make one slip in your eyes (a $10 charge for a new panel) you will turn your back on empeg, withdraw all of the reccommendations you have made to your friends, and presumably run us down to anyone that will listen.No, I think you're overstating my position on that. I'm saying "Wow, they've done some really good customer service in the past, but on this -- which is really important to me -- they completely dropped the ball." It's not like I'm saying "If you don't send the panels for free, then dammit, I'm registering empegsucks.com tomorrow and putting up a huge site railing against them!" What I'm saying is that I would find it more difficult, when asked for my opinion, to give a glowing review. To turn your argument on its head, I could just as easily say that for all the money, patience, etc. that Empeg customers have offered Empeg, Inc., it really is quite offensive that you would suddenly get all cheap over a $10 part. Given the amount of money Empeg customers pay (let's call it an average of around US$1500), for Empeg to suddenly not being willing to eat 0.6% of that cost to make good on a design flaw is insulting. Is it a design flaw that affects everyone? Certainly not. Is it a design flaw that renders the unit completely inoperable making it a 5 pound paperweight? No. Does that mean you should have to proactively send a replacement panel to all the 1000+ existing owners? No. It means, "If someone is experiencing a problem from this design flaw, then they should get their panel comp'ed." So if the number of people actually complaining about this problem is small (as you indicate) then your outlay for those few is minimal. If someone has a non-AR panel and DOESN'T have a problem with it, then great! they're happy with what they have, it doesn't affect them, no need to waste money sending them an AR panel which doesn't change their experience one bit. D
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#19168 - 07/10/2000 18:29
Re: lousy state of Mk2 now ... Where's the good ne
[Re: altman]
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old hand
Registered: 12/01/2000
Posts: 1079
Loc: Dallas, TX
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The coating doesn't cost us 60 or 70 bucks, its just what we charge people. I was just pointing out that 10 dollars was reasonable, but I guess thats not really the issue. How fuzzy does it make the screen? Are you using a green panel?
Sean
Empeg 12 gig green 080000078
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#19169 - 07/10/2000 18:32
Re: lousy state of Mk2 now ... Where's the good ne
[Re: Dredd]
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old hand
Registered: 12/01/2000
Posts: 1079
Loc: Dallas, TX
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So you think the new panels are a warranty repair?
Sean
Empeg 12 gig green 080000078
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#19170 - 07/10/2000 18:47
Re: lousy state of Mk2 now ... Where's the good ne
[Re: rob]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5539
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
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Michael took Mikka by 7/1000ths in the last 3 minutes of qualifying
I'll betcha Enzo is beaming from on high!
tanstaafl.
"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
_________________________
"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
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#19171 - 07/10/2000 19:22
Re: lousy state of Mk2 now ... Where's the good ne
[Re: Terminator]
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journeyman
Registered: 15/09/1999
Posts: 91
Loc: Pasadena, California, USA
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So you think the new panels are a warranty repair?
No, I'm pretty sure he said nothing of the sort. After reading this entire thread (love that email digest :), it seems to me that the positions can be summed up this way:
Empeg: We're getting new antireflective panels, which were not part of the original product design, and we're offering them at a highly subsidized price to early adopters because we're grateful for their early support of the product, and we realize that they may be having difficulties reading the Empeg display in very sunny areas of the world.
Dredd: It's not good enough to offer them at a highly subsidized price; they should be sent for free to anybody who is experiencing frequent problems reading their displays in sunlight, because not being able to read the display in sunlight is a defect in the product design.
Now, I live in _Southern_ California, and the sun here is even worse than the sun up in Northern California (where Dredd lives). Is my (blue) Mk 1 visible in sunlight? Indeed it is, though it takes a little bit of effort to read it. Is my (red) Mk 2 visible in sunlight? Not in the slightest, and unless you actually cast a shadow over it with your arm or something, you have no chance whatsoever of reading _any_ information off the screen (of course, my Mk 2 is red, and the red screen clearly contributes to the lack of visibility; but I think that if it had AR coating, it'd be a bit better). Am I going to demand that Empeg send me a free AR panel? No, I'm not - though I certainly wouldn't mind if they chose to do so - because I bought one of the first 50 players knowing that it had no AR panel, and that if an AR panel came out later I'd probably have to pay for it.
Empeg's customer service is, quite simply, the best I've ever encountered. I had a problem a number of weeks ago where I had to send back my Mk 2 for screen replacement; I sent it on a Friday (the Friday before Labor Day, as it happened), and got it back on the following Wednesday. That's less than a week, and I know that FedEx had quite a lot to do with it, but it still struck me as remarkable that I could send the player to England, from Southern California, and get it back in 5 days. I also am continually impressed with the responses I get when I send in bug reports, suggestions, and other such messages - usually, they're along the lines of either "we've got that planned for the next version" or "wow, that's a good idea, I'll implement it". Only 2 other software companies - Stalker Software, which makes the email server I use, and Cyrusoft, which makes the email client I use - are similarly responsive to their users, in my experience.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that if the Empeg people decide that they will send free AR panels to those of us who live in regions where they're an absolute necessity, I'll be very happy. But if they decide that they can't send free AR panels for economic reasons, I'll respect that decision because I know, from more than a year of prior experience with them, that they're not being "cheap" or making the decision lightly. Moreover, I'll gladly pay for the AR panel. And it won't change my opinion of them, personally or professionally, in the slightest.
-----
Daniel M. Zimmerman
Mk.2 #060000058, 36GB, Red
Mk.1 #00101, 10GB, Blue
_________________________
Daniel M. Zimmerman
Mk.2 #060000058, 36GB
Mk.1 #00101, 10GB
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#19172 - 07/10/2000 19:58
Re: lousy state of Mk2 now ... Where's the good ne
[Re: dmz]
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enthusiast
Registered: 12/11/1999
Posts: 261
Loc: Bay Area, California
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No, I'm pretty sure he said nothing of the sort. After reading this entire thread (love that email digest :), it seems to me that the positions can be summed up this way:
Empeg: We're getting new antireflective panels, which were not part of the original product design, and we're offering them at a highly subsidized price to early adopters because we're grateful for their early support of the product, and we realize that they may be having difficulties reading the Empeg display in very sunny areas of the world.
Dredd: It's not good enough to offer them at a highly subsidized price; they should be sent for free to anybody who is experiencing frequent problems reading their displays in sunlight, because not being able to read the display in sunlight is a defect in the product design.
That is a VERY accurate description of the positions. (Although I would also concur that "product design defects" are a warranty item, but that's a different way of saying what you're saying above).
I'm not advocating that Empeg send every owner a panel, only those owners who are having enough problems that they ask for one. Given that (per Rob) "only a handful" have complained, this CAN'T cost them that much to do. The only time it could fall into the economic hardship category for them is if way more people than he is letting on have actually complained. I see no reason to believe he's lying, so I don't understand the hesitation in coughing up on the panels for those who ask.
D
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#19173 - 08/10/2000 01:50
Re: lousy state of Mk2 now ... Where's the good ne
[Re: Dredd]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 13/09/1999
Posts: 2401
Loc: Croatia
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I have not had stomach strong enough to read too carefully through all this, so one or two points may be already made: It is sad that people like Dredd react to unheard of commitment to customer satisfaction by empeg by pushing them to become like everybody else (they are not moving there, of course, but I am sure the thought has passed Rob's or Hugo's mind). If they behaved like Sony, IBM or Microsoft, nobody would, knowing rules, expect essentially anything apart from barest waranty. Dredd is mad at them because in one thing they are just ten times as good as others, in stead of usual 100  . My IBM laptop is unreadable in daylight (sunny day, outside in a shade), let alone direct sunlight, which did not stop IBM from advertising them depicting a guy on a beach using it. What do you think would be reaction if I required them to design and produce, then supply it free of charge, aviation-grade display that is readable on the beach? On my car (Renault Twingo) centrally located LCD speedometer dims when the headlights are on. As the result, it is unreadable with roof open on sunny day with lights on. Rear window wiper has no intermitent setting, making it unusable in light rain or slow, city driving. (I had a gripe or two with every car I ever drove.) Do you expect Renault to recall the car or its present owners to stop buying Renaults? As several posters noted, current MkII display is more readable in sunlight than both MkI (AR coating or not) and Sonys, Alpinas and others. So, relative to both earlier iteration of their product and industry mainstream, it is not defective nor flawed. The only 'mistake' guys@empeg made is being honest: they said 'OK, direct sunlight might be a problem, we are working on a fix', rather than 'Here is an amazing supper-dupper reflect-o-magic add on that leaves other's sunlight readability in the dust for mere $50!' as other would, if their designs were upgradable in the first place. I would really not like guys@empeg to conclude that honesty does not pay (as it obviously does not with Dredd). As for software upgradebility and paying for it, I am only aware of 'automagical' upgrades in MS OSes and handfull of other Widows products. Even then, 'upgrades' often tend to break basic functionality and serve more marketing than technical purpose. Anyway, I certanly had to pay for every new generation of MS Office, CorellDraw etc. For high-end products (like serious databases, CASE or development tools, Windows or Unix) one usually pays 12-25% of base price for yearly support, which still does not guarantee bug fixes nor free upgrades (on will get minor bugfix upgrades for free, but will still pay - at discount - for major new versions). I could go on... I am not sure whether I will buy a new AR coated display, because I have not yet decided whether I prefer washout in direct sunlight or slightly blurred display. It would be nice if guys@empeg would provide us with a couple of good, hi-res 'before and after' photos. My decision will in no way whatsoever be influenced by having to pay for it or not. Cheers! Dragi "Bonzi" Raos Zagreb, Croatia Q#5196, MkII#80000376, 18GB green
_________________________
Dragi "Bonzi" Raos
Q#5196
MkII #080000376, 18GB green
MkIIa #040103247, 60GB blue
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#19174 - 08/10/2000 10:24
Re: lousy state of Mk2 now ... Where's the good ne
[Re: bonzi]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31565
Loc: Seattle, WA
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I am not sure whether I will buy a new AR coated display, because I have not yet decided whether I prefer washout in direct sunlight or slightly blurred display.If the AR coating for the MK2s is anything like the MK1s, then the blurring is very slight and does not affect the enjoyment or readability of the display at all. ___________
Tony Fabris
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#19175 - 08/10/2000 12:23
Re: lousy state of Mk2 now ... Where's the good ne
[Re: Dredd]
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member
Registered: 09/06/1999
Posts: 197
Loc: Germany
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Hi !
-act 1, charging for AR coated display ...
As long as it is in the really fair price range from $10 to $30 i just don't care enough to argue, in my opinion there is nothing more pointless then arguments just for the "principle", i am thinking quite functional :-)
So thx for that one, rob, if you would have charged $100 or something that direction i would have started about "was it promised or not" but like this its all fine ...
-act 2 empegs handling of their "faults"
Its perfect.
Nevertheless it is just the way you must have done it without getting in trouble, because you are clearly using us as beta testers, unlike "big" companies who invest time & money to come out with no obvious flaws.
I like this policy, because i prefer having my toy 6 month earlier with some drawbacks instead of having it later in perfect shape.
There are limits, but until now you never came close crossing them.
-act 3 : Sheep
>I think it just appears that people are unwilling to speak up publicly and air
>their contrary opinions.... Hell, I think that's true in general these days,
>we're conditioned not to stand up and make noise about something, we're a race
>of sheep.
Yes.
It is *really* not the way that empeg in general or you, rob, in person ever encouraged this behaviour, ( e.g. by not talking to nasty people ( like me ??? ) anymore ) but still, i agree 100% that this is a BBS where many people forget thinking while hyping, meaning that people don't even like others to complain ...
I don't know why, but some people think, they get credits for beeing nice to empeg ltd. ...
I said it in that behatred thread about the display shows no viz after booting in the car, and it is still valid:
After all empeg is in here for the money, and we are in here for a good product, lets all try to stop treating this like a holy war, please.
I hope that i am always fair, when complaing about this or that, and i know that i missed the point in some occasions, but critics should be a good thing for an emerging company like empeg, it is derived from hundred's of peoples playing around, thinking and writing, work that you only pay for with attending this board, yet no one of us gets money if you implement a "most wanted" feature and it turns out to be good.
So better be good to us :-)
No, but seriously, as long as the critics go straight to product flaws and don't get personal its one of the best things for developers to improve their product.
This is what helps the small company i work for to stay ahead of the others since years:
Talking to annoyed customers about WHAT makes them so frustrated and about their ideas to improve our Software ...
- act 4 getting personal
Don't
Even using a medium like a simple bbs doesn't mean that we can't find out if we like or dislike someones attitude or behaviour, but still we only do this to achieve a better product, so lets tolerate each other in sensible borders and cooperate like we've done befor.
Nils
arghh again a thred that gets this strange spin, sorry for THAT, not for the well earned critics about display and knob :-)
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#19176 - 08/10/2000 12:41
Re: lousy state of Mk2 now ... Where's the good ne
[Re: tfabris]
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member
Registered: 09/06/1999
Posts: 197
Loc: Germany
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>On the other hand, the Empeg folks were satisfied with the non-AR design and >called it "done". If folks hadn't been making noises here on the BBS about it,
>and if Empeg hadn't said anything about AR panels possibly becoming available
>soon, there would have been no issue.
Nope :-)
I realized the drawbacks about 1 day after i got my Mk2 and posted it here 1 day later, i dont' care who promised what, i simply knew that this was unbearable ...
( I start thinking about whose fault it is when it comes to paying for it, but luckyily the charge that rob announced is in the "dont care" range )
So now my friend whom i sold my Mk1, and who was so happy about giving him my "faulty" Mk2 faceplate ( the one with sticking buttons ) returned to Mk1 faceplate again, because he couldn't use the blue PG ( pro-glare :-) ) faceplate.
He would be in for another AR display too :-)
Of course without the discount, but anyways he also thinks it is worth it ...
Nils
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#19177 - 08/10/2000 12:50
Good display for sunny weather ...
[Re: loren]
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member
Registered: 09/06/1999
Posts: 197
Loc: Germany
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>The AR faceplate won't make your display magically readable in direct
>sunlight. This is a problem in every head unit i've ever seen.
Off Topic, because the only good way to do it that i know works with LCD, but just to let you know:
Some Manufactorers manage to create LCD Displays in a way that it looks like LED Displays in normal conditions ( black background with illuminated pixels of the data to diplay ) and like a cheap LCD in sunny conditoins -> inverse ( light background, dark to black pixels ).
So with this technology there is only 1 ( One ) certain amount of lighting that makes the display unreadable, everyting above and below renders a perfect readable display.
Now THAT's good ...
( my behatred Clarion 2175 + DSP did so, a crappy piece of **** besides that, it costed more than an empeg, Arghhh )
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#19178 - 08/10/2000 13:00
Re: lousy state of Mk2 now ... Where's the good ne
[Re: dmz]
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member
Registered: 09/06/1999
Posts: 197
Loc: Germany
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>I guess what I'm trying to say is that if the Empeg people decide that they
>will send free AR panels to those of us who live in regions where they're an
>absolute necessity, I'll be very happy.
Gosh, you will see a lot of people rushing to south california, just to get those panels for free :-)
( do you know a place where i can get a flight & bed for $9 so i save $1 in total ??? )
:-)
Nils, from rainy Germany
Maybe i should check my eyes ( and my friends' eyes too, we all can't read the display even if it is a bit cloudy )
Now that would be fun, if it turns out that all of us "display complainers* just need glasses :-)
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#19179 - 08/10/2000 13:11
Re: lousy state of Mk2 now ... Where's the good ne
[Re: Nils]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 21/05/1999
Posts: 5335
Loc: Cambridge UK
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Maybe i should check my eyes ( and my friends' eyes too, we all can't read the display even if it is a bit cloudy )
I find this very strange - you shouldn't have any difficulty reading the display in all but the brightest conditions. I can clearly read the blue display on a sunny day provided the sun isn't shining through the back window directly onto the faceplate - i.e. the brightness is fine, just the reflection is the problem.
We have seen two players with a display fault, in which the display is VERY dim all of the time - quite hard to read even indoors under normal background lighting. A rule of thumb is that you should still be able to read what's on the display with the dimmer set to minimum brightness when indoors under normal lighting.
What colour display do you have?
Rob
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#19180 - 08/10/2000 23:56
Re: lousy state of Mk2 now ... Where's the good ne
[Re: rob]
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member
Registered: 09/06/1999
Posts: 197
Loc: Germany
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Hi rob !
My mk2 was delivered with blue display and later on i got the red display that i ordered.
The display isn't too dim i think, now, without the filter, it is way too bright when driving at nite, the trouble is more to have too few contrast when using the display filters ...
Nils
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#19181 - 09/10/2000 09:52
Re: lousy state of Mk2 now ... Where's the good ne
[Re: rob]
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addict
Registered: 09/06/1999
Posts: 558
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
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I just have to shime in here and say that my Mk II has absolutely no readability problems. I can even make it out (somewhat at least) in direct sunlight. In contrast with that, the Pioneer Head unit that I also have installed has been nearly 100% unreadable in any daylight in the last car I had it installed in and the CR-V it's in now along with the empeg. I can't see what the problem with the empeg display is and the only reason I might go with the AR Coated screen is if people find that the Blue is bluer then the current Cyan colour.
I think the subsidised price is a small price to pay and I doubt pioneer would ever give me a newly designed face for my stereo based upon the fact that I can't read it.
empeg guys, you rock! Service and support is top notch! Three "gifts" have arrived in the mail so far from you guys and I always get excited when I see the pretty white bubble envelopes show up in the mail!
#170... I got SN: 080000101 12 gig Blue!
_________________________
12 gig empeg Mark II, SN: 080000101 30 gig RioCar SN: 30103114 My blog
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#19182 - 09/10/2000 10:18
Re: lousy state of Mk2 now ... Where's the good ne
[Re: ShadowMan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31565
Loc: Seattle, WA
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I just have to shime in here and say that my Mk II has absolutely no readability problems. I can even make it out (somewhat at least) in direct sunlight.This is interesting... I'm seeing two ends of the spectrum being posted here on this board. On the one end, there are the folks saying that their Mk2 is totally unreadable in sunlight, and there are others, like you, who say that it's fine. Those that have readability problems are hoping that the AR panels will miraculously solve their problems. But then we also have reports of at least two players which have hardware problems making their displays run dimmer than they should. Is it possible that the hardware problem is more widespread than originally thought, and some of the folks screaming for AR panels actually have faulty displays? I don't want to start a run on returns for Empeg or anything, I'm just concerned that some customers on this BBS might be putting their energies into the wrong place. Without a high-tech light level meter, how would one be able to tell if the display is running at the correct brightness? I'm sure there's some variation from panel to panel, but in general, and in layman's terms, how bright should it be? Here's my stab at it: I have a Mk1, which has no night-dimming feature. It runs at full brightness all the time. If I park in the garage at night, with all the lights off and just the Empeg running, most of the visuals are bright enough to actually hurt my eyes, and I have to switch to a more subdued visual. If driving late at night, most of the visuals are so bright and distracting that I have to switch to the StarDust visual to keep it from bugging me too much. ___________
Tony Fabris
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#19183 - 09/10/2000 11:33
Re: lousy state of Mk2 now ... Where's the good ne
[Re: ShadowMan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 21/05/1999
Posts: 5335
Loc: Cambridge UK
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The AR coat won't change the tint to any appreciable degree.
Rob
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#19184 - 09/10/2000 11:42
Re: lousy state of Mk2 now ... Where's the good ne
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 21/05/1999
Posts: 5335
Loc: Cambridge UK
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It's VERY obvious if you have this particular problem - it's hard to read the display even at night. The maximum brightness in this case is roughly equivalent to the minimum dimmer setting on a normal player.
Rob
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#19185 - 09/10/2000 23:10
Re: lousy state of Mk2 now ... Where's the good ne
[Re: rob]
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member
Registered: 09/06/1999
Posts: 197
Loc: Germany
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Hmm really hard to tell, as lightness is so hard to compare by us silly humans ( and i don't have a measurement device )
But if there is'nt a level in between 100% okay and the "even hard to read at nigth" faulty displays that rob mentions, mine should be okay, a comparison that i can find:
The display in my Mk2 WITHOUT any filter faceplate is about as bright as my Mk1 with green AR filter ...
( so the plasma itself might be a bit dimmer )
But:
I see the main problem in the CONTRAST not in the brightness ...
( example, if you remove the green filter from the mk1 the display is harder to read in sunlight then before, even if it is brighter )
AND as a followup thought to this, the conrast is influenced by:
-1- The outside light conditions -> the more sun the worse display contrast
-2- The arrangement and total "shine-through" area of the car's windows ( or even worse like in my convertible -> having no roof at all )
-3- The display itself, so the combo of plasma display with filter glass, which surely IS worse in the Mk2 compared to the Mk1 right now.
-4- The angle in which the empeg resides in the car, in my car it looks up 20 degrees ( VERY approx ) if i could make it "look deeper" then it wouldn't be half the trouble ( but i can't ).
So you shouldn't wonder too much if different people report different problem levels or no problems at all ...
For some the readability might be 100% equal to the Mk1, but with having a clearer display it might look even more crispy then on the Mk1 ...
So i think those 4 parameters above are enough to produce this confusion, i hope my display isn't defective, but if robs assumption about " the display is okay or THAT dim that everyone would notice its broken" is valid, mine seems to be okay.
Nils
P.S. and then don't forget about different priorities that people see the problem.
Some maybe have problems reading the display 20% of all times, but simply don't care, others can't read it 10% of all time, but it drives them crazy, don't forget, we all have our different behaviours...
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#19186 - 10/10/2000 02:18
Re: lousy state of Mk2 now ... Where's the good ne
[Re: Nils]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 19/05/1999
Posts: 3457
Loc: Palo Alto, CA
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The VFD drive circuitry in the Mk2 was improved over the Mk1 - in particular the filament heater driver. The Mk2 isn't any brighter than the best mk1's, but mk1's tended to vary enormously in brightness; we can't get any brighter than the mk2 is, we are running the display at optimum settings.
The difference between the empeg display and some other in-car VFDs is that we use a coloured filter. This does improve the contrast, but as it's coloured it obviously blocks some of the spectrum and reduces the brightness. Other head units with VFDs tend to have custom VFD glass with different colour areas (eg, red, yellow...) and just use a "neutral" (looks like smoked glass) filter to enhance the contrast, but not to block a significant amount of the spectrum.
At some point I might try to see if we can get a few neutral panels made for the empeg to see what it looks like. It'd be brighter, but the colour wouldn't match anyone's dash, really - it'd just be the natural blue-green colour of the VFD itself.
Hugo
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#19187 - 10/10/2000 05:08
Re: lousy state of Mk2 now ... Where's the good ne
[Re: altman]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 15/08/2000
Posts: 4859
Loc: New Jersey, USA
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Greetings!
Actually, that blue-green might be the perfect match for my dash lights!!! If you do make any of these as a trial, please consider make them available to customers as well. Thanks!
Paul G.
Q# 15189
SN# 090000587 (40GB Green)
_________________________
Paul Grzelak
200GB with 48MB RAM, Illuminated Buttons and Digital Outputs
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#19188 - 10/10/2000 07:21
Re: lousy state of Mk2 now ... Where's the good ne
[Re: rob]
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addict
Registered: 09/06/1999
Posts: 558
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
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Ok then... well I do also have a convertible that I will be putting my empeg into next Spring. :) So then I just might need the AR Coating.
Later.
#170... I got SN: 080000101 12 gig Blue!
_________________________
12 gig empeg Mark II, SN: 080000101 30 gig RioCar SN: 30103114 My blog
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#19189 - 10/10/2000 15:45
Re: lousy state of Mk2 now ... Where's the good ne
[Re: altman]
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Pooh-Bah
Registered: 09/09/1999
Posts: 1721
Loc: San Jose, CA
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#19190 - 11/10/2000 09:06
Re: lousy state of Mk2 now ... Where's the good ne
[Re: eternalsun]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12318
Loc: Sterling, VA
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I just thought I'd add my experience to this. I was one of the people with the display brightness problem. I was absolutely unable to read it during the day. It was okay at night but not great, and at home it seemed fine. So I sent it back to empeg and they told me it was running at 1/6 its normal brightness. I can tell you now, when I got it back it was 600% better. I can read it pretty well in direct sunlight, too. I really don't see what the problem is. In my van I have an Alpine NAV system directly above the empeg (you can bet my friends are impressed). In the same direct sunlight, the empeg is easier to read than the NAV, which I thought was pretty good before. I am satisfied with the display right now, but if people start saying that the new panels are a large improvement, I'll consider upgrading. At this point it is the scratchable surface that worries me most. As for us "sheep", has it occured to you that some of us are perfectly happy with the results of our product? It's ridiculous to think that because most of the people on the board are proponents of empeg, that means that we are all to "afraid" to post our opinions. I posted my opinion on the poor display problem of my empeg. They then determined it to be a hardware problem that they proceeded to repair under warranty. Now I am satisfied, and I don't complain because this is a great product and a great company. DiGNAN
_________________________
Matt
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#19191 - 11/10/2000 09:07
Re: lousy state of Mk2 now ... Where's the good ne
[Re: Dignan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12318
Loc: Sterling, VA
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Oh, and I wouldn't mind paying for a new panel. DiGNAN
_________________________
Matt
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#19192 - 11/10/2000 09:35
Re: lousy state of Mk2 now ... Where's the good ne
[Re: altman]
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member
Registered: 09/06/1999
Posts: 106
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA, USA
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I for one would be very interested in a neutral filter panel.
Fly me to the moon...
_________________________
Fly me to the moon...
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#19193 - 11/10/2000 17:17
Re: lousy state of Mk2 now ... Where's the good ne
[Re: Dignan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12318
Loc: Sterling, VA
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Oh, and one more thing. The fact that I'm posting and asking questions on this board at all means that I enjoy the feedback from the users and from the company itself. As I've said before, the only other occasion that I've seen this kind of interaction with a company is with Klipsch, the speaker company. They also have a message board which not only convinced me to buy the speakers, but was also invaluable in terms of getting help with them, and getting feedback on any sort of issues. And while you don't have the president of the company posting on the board (bravo, Rob), you have qualified staff members. In that situation as well, complaints from the message board caused a change in the manufacturing of the product. After complaints of hissing from ProMedia owners, Klipsch started to produce a low-gain preamp instead, which virtually eliminated this problem, and they sent out free replacements to the existing owners. So for now, I applaud the companies (mainly the startups and the smaller businesses) for their grasp of the internet and it's communication/consumer relations possibilities. DiGNAN
_________________________
Matt
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#19194 - 12/10/2000 01:13
Re: lousy state of Mk2 now ... Where's the good ne
[Re: Dignan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 21/05/1999
Posts: 5335
Loc: Cambridge UK
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I'm not the president of empeg, Matt, I'm not even executive - just lowly Operations Manager!
Hugo (altman) is co-founder and Technical Director, Steve is the other founder and Commercial Director. Steve doesn't get the time to post here, he's too busy living the jetset lifestyle *grin*
Rob
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#19195 - 12/10/2000 08:37
Bistromathics
[Re: Dredd]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/06/1999
Posts: 2993
Loc: Wareham, Dorset, UK
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Boy, I'm glad you didn't design Concorde, Derek, otherwise the buggers would be raining down on Paris. I see you have conveniently forgotten: - postage costs - packaging costs - insurance costs - administration costs in sorting out client addresses, etc. - employee overheads to pack & dispatch ...which could make your "$30 part" somewhere closer to $70. Oops. Let's see then, if we all ordered the curry with no starter, then we should divide this by 16,000... Oh hang on though, you two had the Irish coffees and there was all the extra beers and pappadums we had before the main course. Damn, we'll be here all night. Anyone got any loose change? One of the few remaining Mk1 owners... #00015
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One of the few remaining Mk1 owners... #00015
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#19196 - 12/10/2000 08:45
Re: lousy state of Mk2 now ... Where's the good ne
[Re: Dredd]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/06/1999
Posts: 2993
Loc: Wareham, Dorset, UK
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usability for marketed purpose type laws, since cars are exposed to the sun, you could make a case that it isn't usable on a sunny day with the top downDamn!! You are right! Not fit for the purpose intended! Well, in that case I have just decided that I am totally unsatisfied with my Mk1, because occasionaly, I can't see the screen in sunlight with the top down on my TR 6. I don't give a flying fart that the unit does fulfil it's primary design role (playing music). Rob, I demand that you send me a free Mk2 to replace this unit. It is just not acceptable that within one year of me buying this unit you have totally obsoleted it with a clearly superior design. Which hurts more? One thousand pounds in replacement units, or the potential lost sales from bad word-of-mouth about customer service? One of the few remaining Mk1 owners... #00015
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One of the few remaining Mk1 owners... #00015
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#19197 - 12/10/2000 08:49
Re: lousy state of Mk2 now ... Where's the good ne
[Re: Dredd]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/06/1999
Posts: 2993
Loc: Wareham, Dorset, UK
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"The Master of the Shifting Sands" Subtlety, Derek, subtlety. By God, I wouldn't like to get on the wrong side of you when you get really ticked off. Oh, I just realise. I am, and you aren't. Ooop. One of the few remaining Mk1 owners... #00015
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One of the few remaining Mk1 owners... #00015
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#19198 - 12/10/2000 08:56
Re: lousy state of Mk2 now ... Where's the good ne
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/06/1999
Posts: 2993
Loc: Wareham, Dorset, UK
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Well then Tony - How about a poll? One of the few remaining Mk1 owners... #00015
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One of the few remaining Mk1 owners... #00015
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#19199 - 12/10/2000 09:12
Re: lousy state of Mk2 now ... Where's the good ne
[Re: Nils]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/06/1999
Posts: 2993
Loc: Wareham, Dorset, UK
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I don't know why, but some people think, they get credits for beeing nice to empeg ltd. ...
I think I might just take this personally. Yes, I think I will. In fact, that strikes me as a pretty good idea. Nils, are you under the impression that various members of the BBS are specially privileged, i.e. that they get freebies or other such goodies from empeg for being nice??!! Or have you forgotten that this is pretty much a closed, self-congratulatory community of like-minded souls? What benefit do you think you get by being pleasantly complimentary? - act 4 getting personal
Don't
After the comments you make here, you can still make a statement like this and keep smiling?? I'm beginning to wonder if while I've been away the BBS has been taken over by aliens, who look and sound the same as before - it's just that they are now aliens. LOOK OUT! THEY'RE COMING! One of the few remaining Mk1 owners... #00015
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One of the few remaining Mk1 owners... #00015
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#19200 - 12/10/2000 10:22
Re: lousy state of Mk2 now ... Where's the good ne
[Re: schofiel]
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enthusiast
Registered: 29/09/2000
Posts: 313
Loc: Belgium/Holland
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Probably the same aliens who are conspiring agains Tony (tfabris) and me getting our ADSL before the year is over.
Cheers,
Hans
Mk2 - Blue - 080000431
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Mk2
This message will selfdestruct in 5 seconds to prevent reproduction.
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#19201 - 12/10/2000 10:46
Re: lousy state of Mk2 now ... Where's the good ne
[Re: schofiel]
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old hand
Registered: 12/08/2000
Posts: 702
Loc: Netherlands
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In reply to:
I don't know why, but some people think, they get credits for beeing nice to empeg ltd. ...
I'm just nice to everyone... Peace...
Personally, I think these threads should belong in a different forum - Complaints...
I probably wouldn't read them, as it takes too long to load the pages ( damn this thread is long... )
Frank van Gestel
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Frank van Gestel
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#19202 - 12/10/2000 10:52
Re: lousy state of Mk2 now ... Where's the good ne
[Re: EngelenH]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 18/01/2000
Posts: 5680
Loc: London, UK
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We've got those aliens here in the U.K.. They're called British Telecom and Oftel . Roger - not necessarily speaking for empeg
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-- roger
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#19203 - 14/10/2000 07:56
Re: lousy state of Mk2 now ... Where's the good ne
[Re: schofiel]
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member
Registered: 09/06/1999
Posts: 197
Loc: Germany
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>I think I might just take this personally. Yes, I think I will. In fact, that
>strikes me as a pretty good idea.
Why do you think i meant you ?! I didn't ...
What i meant was the type of comments, that appear in threads, where empeg ( the device or the company ) is criticised and peaople just post things with an overall contents like "shut up" ( they don't actually say so, but whatever they write in 5 - 15 lines goes this direction, without adding any info for the problem that someone was annoyed about.
Strange you saw yourself in my words descibing people like that, i didn't think of you. You are surely aligning with empeg's official opinion often, but i guess this is just because it IS your opinion, and you always add new info/hints to what you're saying.
>Nils, are you under the impression that various members of the BBS are
>specially privileged, i.e. that they get freebies or other such goodies from
>empeg for being nice??!! Or have you forgotten that this is pretty much a
>closed, self-congratulatory community of like-minded souls? What benefit do
>you think you get by being pleasantly complimentary?
No, if i would think so, i would sent automated compliments & nice emails to this BBS and to all empeg members every 10 nano seconds.
( You can't really think that i thought so, that is what was striking me, with those people, they don't BENEFIT from that behaviour. )
>After the comments you make here, you can still make a statement like this and >keep smiling??
Yes, without a problem.
As i didn't talk about one special person, and as i did not mention names ( which i won't do also in the future ) i couldn't be accused of getting personal myself. Again, whyever you felt i meant you, that is your problem and that is not true.
>I'm beginning to wonder if while I've been away the BBS has been taken over by
>aliens, who look and sound the same as before - it's just that they are now
>aliens.
Thats exactly what i thought, i just thought it about other people.
( And NO i don't mean you, do i have to include that for all my following posts ?? )
:-)
So whatever you make of this, i am sorry for troubling you, but nevertheless i meant my posting exactly as it was, although its not really bad, as we just speak of a technical toy, not more.
Nils, surprised !
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#19204 - 14/10/2000 07:58
Re: lousy state of Mk2 now ... Where's the good ne
[Re: EngelenH]
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member
Registered: 09/06/1999
Posts: 197
Loc: Germany
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Then i am under friendly fire i guess as my DSL also is delayed :-)
( for the more serious answer to this read my comment above )
Nils, ET :-)
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#19205 - 14/10/2000 08:00
Re: lousy state of Mk2 now ... Where's the good ne
[Re: Roger]
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member
Registered: 09/06/1999
Posts: 197
Loc: Germany
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different tribe here, DEUTSCHE TELEKOM, but they are easy to detect, they are all dressed in pink ( I don't think they're gay, at least not all )
:-)
Nils
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