#19157 - 06/10/2000 20:58
Re: lousy state of Mk2 now ... Where's the good ne
[Re: Dredd]
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old hand
Registered: 12/01/2000
Posts: 1079
Loc: Dallas, TX
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"isn't providing good customer service"
Have you ever worked in retail before? I guess your definition of customer service is quite different from mine. They have fixed for free everything else that has gone wrong with the player quickly. The screen is not hosed or broken because it is somewhat hard to read in sunlight-so are many other car stereos. I can say for sure that empeg is providing great customer service, even if I have to pay 16 dollars for an a/r panel. The company I work for is charging 60 bucks to put a/r coating on small lenses a few inches across. 10 dollars seems cheap to me. I don't think they ever advertised an a/r panel for the mark2, but on the other hand, they didn't point it out either. Im hoping it was just an oversight.
Sean
Empeg 12 gig green 080000078
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#19158 - 06/10/2000 21:31
Re: lousy state of Mk2 now ... Where's the good ne
[Re: Terminator]
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enthusiast
Registered: 12/11/1999
Posts: 261
Loc: Bay Area, California
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In reply to:
Have you ever worked in retail before?
Yes. Often.
In reply to:
I guess your definition of customer service is quite different from mine. They have fixed for free everything else that has gone wrong with the player quickly.
That's called "Warranty repairs". It's something they're legally obligated to provide you, based on the warranty that came with the unit.
In reply to:
The screen is not hosed or broken because it is somewhat hard to read in sunlight-so are many other car stereos.
It _IS_ hosed, as many people have pointed out (Although they may not be as vociferous as I insofar as their belief that the replacement parts should be free of charge)
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#19159 - 07/10/2000 03:41
Re: lousy state of Mk2 now ... Where's the good ne
[Re: Terminator]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 19/05/1999
Posts: 3457
Loc: Palo Alto, CA
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One of the issues is not the cost of the AR coating, but the cost of the ITO coating (the conductive one which means the player passes FCC/CE approval) - this costs more than the panel and AR coat combined.
Selling the new panels for $10+shipping works out at a small loss for us when handling is bought into the equation. Sending them out to everyone is probably unlikely - not everyone suffers from the problem (I don't, for example; the AR panel I've been testing makes the screen look slightly fuzzy & I think I prefer it clear), and not everyone will want to take their unit apart to fit a new panel. We may make them available to those who ask - this really needs more discussion internally.
Hugo
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#19160 - 07/10/2000 07:28
Re: lousy state of Mk2 now ... Where's the good ne
[Re: Dredd]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 21/05/1999
Posts: 5335
Loc: Cambridge UK
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Well this was predictable, right down to the names on the posts.
This is why major brands NEVER announce continuous production upgrades or changes. This is not a warranty issue - the Mk.2 panel was designed without an AR coat because we were advised that the process would not work with an injection moulded part. Even without AR we found the Mk.2 display more readable in sunlight than that of the Mk.1, not least because it is around 50% brighter.
When I eventually tracked down a lab that could provide the AR coat it seemed a logical production enhancement to make. The product will continue to improve over time, and in the long run late purchasers do get a better deal - but early purchasers have their own reasons to get onboard when they do. That's a personal decision that I'm sure you thought through at the time you purchased an empeg car player.
I would point out that the original batch of Mk.2 players had a screen that definitely proved unusable - far too dark - and it was replaced free of charge.
I have never intentionally stated or implied that AR coated panels would be supplied free of charge to previous clients. I have said that they would be subsidised to a significant degree. They will be.
Even when you get your AR coated screen I'm sure you'll be back on here complaining about it. It won't work miracles. I've never seen any display technology that will remain visible in the direct Californian summer sun, although the AR coated screen does remain visible in direct sunlight here in the UK. You will also, no doubt, complain that it makes the text look a bit fuzzy. It certainly does just that, as did the Mk.1 screen.
By the way, for the record, I just visited Cambridge Car Audio and had a look at the couple of dozen head units they have on display there. Very few of them had any apparant AR coating, and many relatively expensive heads were unreadable if you tilted your head such that the flourescent lights reflected off of them. The only heads that appeared to have a serious AR coat were multimedia units, with full size motorised screens that pop out. Sony, Alpine, and the rest probably don't get too many complaints because it is assumed that nobody there will take any notice.
Anyway, I'll go to the directors on Monday and pass on your feedback. Your views may carry a little more weight if anyone else had agreed with you (Tony - get off that fence! You are allowed to disagree with us from time to time!).
I'm sorry that the other aspects of our product and service haven't compensated for the objections you have over this issue. Feel free to follow up in email if you have serious intentions towards a refund.
Rob
(PS. I'm at home, I'm not officially representing the company right now, and I'm in a bad mood because Michael took Mikka by 7/1000ths in the last 3 minutes of qualifying).
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#19161 - 07/10/2000 08:01
Re: lousy state of Mk2 now ... Where's the good ne
[Re: rob]
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enthusiast
Registered: 12/11/1999
Posts: 261
Loc: Bay Area, California
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(Jumping around here a bit) In reply to:
Feel free to follow up in email if you have serious intentions towards a refund.
I never claimed I wanted a refund (and you'll note that I said that if I had to pay for it, I would, but it would also be the last money that would go Empeg's way).
In reply to:
I have never intentionally stated or implied that AR coated panels would be supplied free of charge to previous clients. I have said that they would be subsidised to a significant degree. They will be.
Never claimed you ever DID say they'd be free. The issue was whether they SHOULD be free.
In reply to:
The product will continue to improve over time, and in the long run late purchasers do get a better deal - but early purchasers have their own reasons to get onboard when they do. That's a personal decision that I'm sure you thought through at the time you purchased an empeg car player.
I was under the impression, given past experiences with Empeg, that if there were design flaws, etc., that they would be handled.
In reply to:
Even when you get your AR coated screen I'm sure you'll be back on here complaining about it. It won't work miracles. I've never seen any display technology that will remain visible in the direct Californian summer sun, although the AR coated screen does remain visible in direct sunlight here in the UK. You will also, no doubt, complain that it makes the text look a bit fuzzy. It certainly does just that, as did the Mk.1 screen.
I had no problems (or should I say, no complaints) with the Mk.I's "fuzziness". Never had even noticed it really. And I'm very capable of eating crow... if it doesn't solve the problem I'll be the first to come on here and apologize for giving you guys a hassle over something which didn't help anyway. It falls into the category of "this certainly sounds like it would solve the problem I'm seeing in the unit".
You'll note that I was also quite willing to help you in testing them "in direct California sun", and offered once or twice on the board and once or twice in e-mail. Never heard a word back on that, so unless someone else tested them for you (a possibility I'm not ignorant of) then the functionality under the conditions here are a big unknown when they could have been fairly well determined.
In reply to:
Anyway, I'll go to the directors on Monday and pass on your feedback. Your views may carry a little more weight if anyone else had agreed with you (Tony - get off that fence! You are allowed to disagree with us from time to time!).
Given the response other people have gotten with their complaints here in the past, I think it just appears that people are unwilling to speak up publicly and air their contrary opinions.... Hell, I think that's true in general these days, we're conditioned not to stand up and make noise about something, we're a race of sheep.
And yeah, Tony, get off the damn fence. 
I don't want you to take this personal, Rob. My dealings with everyone at Empeg have always been stellar, with this being the exception. I have nothing against "you" or anyone else there, I simply think the company is making a short-sighted decision as to how to handle it. And, like I said, if when I get my panel, it doesn't solve the problem, and it turns out I fussed over nothing, you'll see me on here apologizing profusely, but until then, I stand by my opinion that this is the wrong way to handle the issue.
D
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#19162 - 07/10/2000 08:17
Re: lousy state of Mk2 now ... Where's the good ne
[Re: Dredd]
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addict
Registered: 09/06/1999
Posts: 483
Loc: Guernsey
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In reply to:
This is less of a "design change" as a "design flaw", and you can bet that Sony would never dream of shipping stuff without AR panels...
Yeah, and sony never make mistakes with shipping stuff with design flaws...
I heard that the DVD playback on the Japanese PS2 was so bad that the usa and euro versions are having a dedicated decoder chip added... (Mind you, this is from the register, so might be a false rumour)
Think the people with the Japanese ps2's will get free upgrades?
Jazz
(List 112, Mk2 12 gig #40. Mk1 4 gig #30. Mk3 1.6 16v)
_________________________
Jazz
(List 112, Mk2 42 gig #40. Mk1 4 gig #30. Mk3 1.6 16v)
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#19163 - 07/10/2000 08:24
Re: lousy state of Mk2 now ... Where's the good ne
[Re: Jazzwire]
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enthusiast
Registered: 12/11/1999
Posts: 261
Loc: Bay Area, California
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In reply to:
I heard that the DVD playback on the Japanese PS2 was so bad that the usa and euro versions are having a dedicated decoder chip added... (Mind you, this is from the register, so might be a false rumour)
Think the people with the Japanese ps2's will get free upgrades?
Actually, IIRC, yes, they will, because that's an EXCUSE. The PS2's DVD players were, I believe, capable of playing any region discs (in violation of Sony's DVD licenses) which means that they're probably pumping up rumors of their own minor problem to get people to swap out for the new chips which don't violate their license to use the DVD technology.
D
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#19164 - 07/10/2000 09:48
Re: lousy state of Mk2 now ... Where's the good ne
[Re: rob]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31597
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Tony - get off that fence! You are allowed to disagree with us from time to time!Okay. (hop) Let's look which side I landed on, shall we? Ah whaddya know... After hearing all the arguments from all sides, I think that Empeg is doing the right thing for offering the AR panels for only ~$16. It's an upgrade part being offered as a discount to existing owners. I don't mean to invalidate anyone's feelings- I can understand and empathize with the feelings of those who think the panels should be free. From that point of view, there are some very valid arguments. ___________
Tony Fabris
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#19165 - 07/10/2000 10:46
Re: lousy state of Mk2 now ... Where's the good ne
[Re: Dredd]
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enthusiast
Registered: 27/09/1999
Posts: 200
Loc: Berkeley, CA
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This is less of a "design change" as a "design flaw", and you can bet that Sony would never dream of shipping stuff without AR panels, because they know that -- DUH -- cars are exposed to the sun, the sun is bright, and the screen needs to be anti-reflective.
Nope. The last Sony head unit (a 2-DIN CD/Cassette combo) I installed had a very shiny faceplate. It was also convex, and had a very bright custom-masked VFD, you never lost the whole display, but in a convertible the glare is annoying.
I agree that shipping without an AR coating was a questionable design descision, but I applaud empeg ltd. for subsidising the replacement panels.
-Zandr
Mk.I #150
Mk.II #39
_________________________
-Zandr
Mk.IIa #010101243 currently getting a 500GB SSD. More spares in the shed.
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#19166 - 07/10/2000 14:16
Some flamewar stuff. Pointless factor: High
[Re: Dredd]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 21/05/1999
Posts: 5335
Loc: Cambridge UK
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Never claimed you ever DID say they'd be free. The issue was whether they SHOULD be free.
Ah, I just wondered why you waited over two months to say anything about it then. I've said lots of times that there would be a charge, the best time to complain isn't at the last minute after a project has been budgeted and is about to ship.
I was under the impression, given past experiences with Empeg, that if there were design flaws, etc., that they would be handled.
First 50 players - new buttons, knob, screen and fascia. First 1000 players - new rotary knob. First 250 (ish) players - replacement serial cable. The few customers affected by powerdown spike problem - new ISO/Diode cable. All free of charge, including shipping and handling.
All new products have glitches - those were ours, and I believe we have acted with exemplary conduct. We've had no more than a handful of complaints about daylight visibility on the Mk.2, and most of those relate to red and amber screens which we acknowledge are not as bright as the blue or green.
Never heard a word back on that, so unless someone else tested them for you (a possibility I'm not ignorant of) then the functionality under the conditions here are a big unknown when they could have been fairly well determined.
We don't have any AR and ITO coated screens yet, and neither will we before the full production run. We can't supply non-ITO coated screens to clients, especially not in the USA - if a competitor picked up on that they could have the FCC shut down our export channel into the US. In any case we have tested the screens in the workshop and have selected the optimum compromise between reflection diffusion and light opacity - this is as good as it gets without rendering the display unreadable.
Given the response other people have gotten with their complaints here in the past, I think it just appears that people are unwilling to speak up publicly and air their contrary opinions.... Hell, I think that's true in general these days, we're conditioned not to stand up and make noise about something, we're a race of sheep.
There I was thinking we had a reputation for great customer responsiveness. I can only think of one issue that we put our foot down over - the visual switching thing - and we came up with a compromise that most people are happy with. But then, they're all sheep, right?
I don't want you to take this personal, Rob. My dealings with everyone at Empeg have always been stellar, with this being the exception.
I think you have this completely out of proportion, and I find it really quite offensive that you can go from a "stellar experience" to vehement condemnation over this issue. In effect you're telling us that no matter how hard we work, how great a product we develop, how great support we offer - despite all that if we make one slip in your eyes (a $10 charge for a new panel) you will turn your back on empeg, withdraw all of the reccommendations you have made to your friends, and presumably run us down to anyone that will listen. With friends like that, who needs enemies?!
Rob
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#19167 - 07/10/2000 14:42
Re: Some flamewar stuff. Pointless factor: High
[Re: rob]
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enthusiast
Registered: 12/11/1999
Posts: 261
Loc: Bay Area, California
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Ah, I just wondered why you waited over two months to say anything about it then. I've said lots of times that there would be a charge, the best time to complain isn't at the last minute after a project has been budgeted and is about to ship.I believe if you'll look back at the record, I have said this in the past, right around time I first complained (in July) about the glare issue with the top down. Please also note here where I'm very clear on my feelings as far back as 21 August with jbauer agreeing with me that they should be comp'ed. There I was thinking we had a reputation for great customer responsiveness. I can only think of one issue that we put our foot down over - the visual switching thing - and we came up with a compromise that most people are happy with. But then, they're all sheep, right?All of them? Certainly not, but anyone who MIGHT have agreed with me sees the pasting I get from the "kiss-ass" end of the spectrum and doesn't bother. I'll even stipulate that the MAJORITY of Empeg owners don't give a damn one way or the other on the AR panel issue. We don't have any AR and ITO coated screens yet, and neither will we before the full production run.Silly Question: How do you have any idea then if what you're paying lots of money to produce is even going to work? I ask that not to be sarcastic, but because I honestly am interested in the answer. If you've never had ne with both coatings, and you CAN'T get one until you get the whole production run, how do you know it'll work at all? Again, that's not sarcasm, that's an honest desire to understand that process. We can't supply non-ITO coated screens to clients, especially not in the USA - if a competitor picked up on that they could have the FCC shut down our export channel into the US.That makes sense (I guess, I'm assuming the ITO coating is some FCC mandated thing). I think you have this completely out of proportion, and I find it really quite offensive that you can go from a "stellar experience" to vehement condemnation over this issue. In effect you're telling us that no matter how hard we work, how great a product we develop, how great support we offer - despite all that if we make one slip in your eyes (a $10 charge for a new panel) you will turn your back on empeg, withdraw all of the reccommendations you have made to your friends, and presumably run us down to anyone that will listen.No, I think you're overstating my position on that. I'm saying "Wow, they've done some really good customer service in the past, but on this -- which is really important to me -- they completely dropped the ball." It's not like I'm saying "If you don't send the panels for free, then dammit, I'm registering empegsucks.com tomorrow and putting up a huge site railing against them!" What I'm saying is that I would find it more difficult, when asked for my opinion, to give a glowing review. To turn your argument on its head, I could just as easily say that for all the money, patience, etc. that Empeg customers have offered Empeg, Inc., it really is quite offensive that you would suddenly get all cheap over a $10 part. Given the amount of money Empeg customers pay (let's call it an average of around US$1500), for Empeg to suddenly not being willing to eat 0.6% of that cost to make good on a design flaw is insulting. Is it a design flaw that affects everyone? Certainly not. Is it a design flaw that renders the unit completely inoperable making it a 5 pound paperweight? No. Does that mean you should have to proactively send a replacement panel to all the 1000+ existing owners? No. It means, "If someone is experiencing a problem from this design flaw, then they should get their panel comp'ed." So if the number of people actually complaining about this problem is small (as you indicate) then your outlay for those few is minimal. If someone has a non-AR panel and DOESN'T have a problem with it, then great! they're happy with what they have, it doesn't affect them, no need to waste money sending them an AR panel which doesn't change their experience one bit. D
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#19168 - 07/10/2000 18:29
Re: lousy state of Mk2 now ... Where's the good ne
[Re: altman]
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old hand
Registered: 12/01/2000
Posts: 1079
Loc: Dallas, TX
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The coating doesn't cost us 60 or 70 bucks, its just what we charge people. I was just pointing out that 10 dollars was reasonable, but I guess thats not really the issue. How fuzzy does it make the screen? Are you using a green panel?
Sean
Empeg 12 gig green 080000078
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#19169 - 07/10/2000 18:32
Re: lousy state of Mk2 now ... Where's the good ne
[Re: Dredd]
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old hand
Registered: 12/01/2000
Posts: 1079
Loc: Dallas, TX
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So you think the new panels are a warranty repair?
Sean
Empeg 12 gig green 080000078
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#19170 - 07/10/2000 18:47
Re: lousy state of Mk2 now ... Where's the good ne
[Re: rob]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5549
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
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Michael took Mikka by 7/1000ths in the last 3 minutes of qualifying
I'll betcha Enzo is beaming from on high!
tanstaafl.
"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
_________________________
"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
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#19171 - 07/10/2000 19:22
Re: lousy state of Mk2 now ... Where's the good ne
[Re: Terminator]
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journeyman
Registered: 15/09/1999
Posts: 91
Loc: Pasadena, California, USA
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So you think the new panels are a warranty repair?
No, I'm pretty sure he said nothing of the sort. After reading this entire thread (love that email digest :), it seems to me that the positions can be summed up this way:
Empeg: We're getting new antireflective panels, which were not part of the original product design, and we're offering them at a highly subsidized price to early adopters because we're grateful for their early support of the product, and we realize that they may be having difficulties reading the Empeg display in very sunny areas of the world.
Dredd: It's not good enough to offer them at a highly subsidized price; they should be sent for free to anybody who is experiencing frequent problems reading their displays in sunlight, because not being able to read the display in sunlight is a defect in the product design.
Now, I live in _Southern_ California, and the sun here is even worse than the sun up in Northern California (where Dredd lives). Is my (blue) Mk 1 visible in sunlight? Indeed it is, though it takes a little bit of effort to read it. Is my (red) Mk 2 visible in sunlight? Not in the slightest, and unless you actually cast a shadow over it with your arm or something, you have no chance whatsoever of reading _any_ information off the screen (of course, my Mk 2 is red, and the red screen clearly contributes to the lack of visibility; but I think that if it had AR coating, it'd be a bit better). Am I going to demand that Empeg send me a free AR panel? No, I'm not - though I certainly wouldn't mind if they chose to do so - because I bought one of the first 50 players knowing that it had no AR panel, and that if an AR panel came out later I'd probably have to pay for it.
Empeg's customer service is, quite simply, the best I've ever encountered. I had a problem a number of weeks ago where I had to send back my Mk 2 for screen replacement; I sent it on a Friday (the Friday before Labor Day, as it happened), and got it back on the following Wednesday. That's less than a week, and I know that FedEx had quite a lot to do with it, but it still struck me as remarkable that I could send the player to England, from Southern California, and get it back in 5 days. I also am continually impressed with the responses I get when I send in bug reports, suggestions, and other such messages - usually, they're along the lines of either "we've got that planned for the next version" or "wow, that's a good idea, I'll implement it". Only 2 other software companies - Stalker Software, which makes the email server I use, and Cyrusoft, which makes the email client I use - are similarly responsive to their users, in my experience.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that if the Empeg people decide that they will send free AR panels to those of us who live in regions where they're an absolute necessity, I'll be very happy. But if they decide that they can't send free AR panels for economic reasons, I'll respect that decision because I know, from more than a year of prior experience with them, that they're not being "cheap" or making the decision lightly. Moreover, I'll gladly pay for the AR panel. And it won't change my opinion of them, personally or professionally, in the slightest.
-----
Daniel M. Zimmerman
Mk.2 #060000058, 36GB, Red
Mk.1 #00101, 10GB, Blue
_________________________
Daniel M. Zimmerman
Mk.2 #060000058, 36GB
Mk.1 #00101, 10GB
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#19172 - 07/10/2000 19:58
Re: lousy state of Mk2 now ... Where's the good ne
[Re: dmz]
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enthusiast
Registered: 12/11/1999
Posts: 261
Loc: Bay Area, California
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No, I'm pretty sure he said nothing of the sort. After reading this entire thread (love that email digest :), it seems to me that the positions can be summed up this way:
Empeg: We're getting new antireflective panels, which were not part of the original product design, and we're offering them at a highly subsidized price to early adopters because we're grateful for their early support of the product, and we realize that they may be having difficulties reading the Empeg display in very sunny areas of the world.
Dredd: It's not good enough to offer them at a highly subsidized price; they should be sent for free to anybody who is experiencing frequent problems reading their displays in sunlight, because not being able to read the display in sunlight is a defect in the product design.
That is a VERY accurate description of the positions. (Although I would also concur that "product design defects" are a warranty item, but that's a different way of saying what you're saying above).
I'm not advocating that Empeg send every owner a panel, only those owners who are having enough problems that they ask for one. Given that (per Rob) "only a handful" have complained, this CAN'T cost them that much to do. The only time it could fall into the economic hardship category for them is if way more people than he is letting on have actually complained. I see no reason to believe he's lying, so I don't understand the hesitation in coughing up on the panels for those who ask.
D
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#19173 - 08/10/2000 01:50
Re: lousy state of Mk2 now ... Where's the good ne
[Re: Dredd]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 13/09/1999
Posts: 2401
Loc: Croatia
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I have not had stomach strong enough to read too carefully through all this, so one or two points may be already made: It is sad that people like Dredd react to unheard of commitment to customer satisfaction by empeg by pushing them to become like everybody else (they are not moving there, of course, but I am sure the thought has passed Rob's or Hugo's mind). If they behaved like Sony, IBM or Microsoft, nobody would, knowing rules, expect essentially anything apart from barest waranty. Dredd is mad at them because in one thing they are just ten times as good as others, in stead of usual 100  . My IBM laptop is unreadable in daylight (sunny day, outside in a shade), let alone direct sunlight, which did not stop IBM from advertising them depicting a guy on a beach using it. What do you think would be reaction if I required them to design and produce, then supply it free of charge, aviation-grade display that is readable on the beach? On my car (Renault Twingo) centrally located LCD speedometer dims when the headlights are on. As the result, it is unreadable with roof open on sunny day with lights on. Rear window wiper has no intermitent setting, making it unusable in light rain or slow, city driving. (I had a gripe or two with every car I ever drove.) Do you expect Renault to recall the car or its present owners to stop buying Renaults? As several posters noted, current MkII display is more readable in sunlight than both MkI (AR coating or not) and Sonys, Alpinas and others. So, relative to both earlier iteration of their product and industry mainstream, it is not defective nor flawed. The only 'mistake' guys@empeg made is being honest: they said 'OK, direct sunlight might be a problem, we are working on a fix', rather than 'Here is an amazing supper-dupper reflect-o-magic add on that leaves other's sunlight readability in the dust for mere $50!' as other would, if their designs were upgradable in the first place. I would really not like guys@empeg to conclude that honesty does not pay (as it obviously does not with Dredd). As for software upgradebility and paying for it, I am only aware of 'automagical' upgrades in MS OSes and handfull of other Widows products. Even then, 'upgrades' often tend to break basic functionality and serve more marketing than technical purpose. Anyway, I certanly had to pay for every new generation of MS Office, CorellDraw etc. For high-end products (like serious databases, CASE or development tools, Windows or Unix) one usually pays 12-25% of base price for yearly support, which still does not guarantee bug fixes nor free upgrades (on will get minor bugfix upgrades for free, but will still pay - at discount - for major new versions). I could go on... I am not sure whether I will buy a new AR coated display, because I have not yet decided whether I prefer washout in direct sunlight or slightly blurred display. It would be nice if guys@empeg would provide us with a couple of good, hi-res 'before and after' photos. My decision will in no way whatsoever be influenced by having to pay for it or not. Cheers! Dragi "Bonzi" Raos Zagreb, Croatia Q#5196, MkII#80000376, 18GB green
_________________________
Dragi "Bonzi" Raos
Q#5196
MkII #080000376, 18GB green
MkIIa #040103247, 60GB blue
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#19174 - 08/10/2000 10:24
Re: lousy state of Mk2 now ... Where's the good ne
[Re: bonzi]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31597
Loc: Seattle, WA
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I am not sure whether I will buy a new AR coated display, because I have not yet decided whether I prefer washout in direct sunlight or slightly blurred display.If the AR coating for the MK2s is anything like the MK1s, then the blurring is very slight and does not affect the enjoyment or readability of the display at all. ___________
Tony Fabris
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#19175 - 08/10/2000 12:23
Re: lousy state of Mk2 now ... Where's the good ne
[Re: Dredd]
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member
Registered: 09/06/1999
Posts: 197
Loc: Germany
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Hi !
-act 1, charging for AR coated display ...
As long as it is in the really fair price range from $10 to $30 i just don't care enough to argue, in my opinion there is nothing more pointless then arguments just for the "principle", i am thinking quite functional :-)
So thx for that one, rob, if you would have charged $100 or something that direction i would have started about "was it promised or not" but like this its all fine ...
-act 2 empegs handling of their "faults"
Its perfect.
Nevertheless it is just the way you must have done it without getting in trouble, because you are clearly using us as beta testers, unlike "big" companies who invest time & money to come out with no obvious flaws.
I like this policy, because i prefer having my toy 6 month earlier with some drawbacks instead of having it later in perfect shape.
There are limits, but until now you never came close crossing them.
-act 3 : Sheep
>I think it just appears that people are unwilling to speak up publicly and air
>their contrary opinions.... Hell, I think that's true in general these days,
>we're conditioned not to stand up and make noise about something, we're a race
>of sheep.
Yes.
It is *really* not the way that empeg in general or you, rob, in person ever encouraged this behaviour, ( e.g. by not talking to nasty people ( like me ??? ) anymore ) but still, i agree 100% that this is a BBS where many people forget thinking while hyping, meaning that people don't even like others to complain ...
I don't know why, but some people think, they get credits for beeing nice to empeg ltd. ...
I said it in that behatred thread about the display shows no viz after booting in the car, and it is still valid:
After all empeg is in here for the money, and we are in here for a good product, lets all try to stop treating this like a holy war, please.
I hope that i am always fair, when complaing about this or that, and i know that i missed the point in some occasions, but critics should be a good thing for an emerging company like empeg, it is derived from hundred's of peoples playing around, thinking and writing, work that you only pay for with attending this board, yet no one of us gets money if you implement a "most wanted" feature and it turns out to be good.
So better be good to us :-)
No, but seriously, as long as the critics go straight to product flaws and don't get personal its one of the best things for developers to improve their product.
This is what helps the small company i work for to stay ahead of the others since years:
Talking to annoyed customers about WHAT makes them so frustrated and about their ideas to improve our Software ...
- act 4 getting personal
Don't
Even using a medium like a simple bbs doesn't mean that we can't find out if we like or dislike someones attitude or behaviour, but still we only do this to achieve a better product, so lets tolerate each other in sensible borders and cooperate like we've done befor.
Nils
arghh again a thred that gets this strange spin, sorry for THAT, not for the well earned critics about display and knob :-)
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#19176 - 08/10/2000 12:41
Re: lousy state of Mk2 now ... Where's the good ne
[Re: tfabris]
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member
Registered: 09/06/1999
Posts: 197
Loc: Germany
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>On the other hand, the Empeg folks were satisfied with the non-AR design and >called it "done". If folks hadn't been making noises here on the BBS about it,
>and if Empeg hadn't said anything about AR panels possibly becoming available
>soon, there would have been no issue.
Nope :-)
I realized the drawbacks about 1 day after i got my Mk2 and posted it here 1 day later, i dont' care who promised what, i simply knew that this was unbearable ...
( I start thinking about whose fault it is when it comes to paying for it, but luckyily the charge that rob announced is in the "dont care" range )
So now my friend whom i sold my Mk1, and who was so happy about giving him my "faulty" Mk2 faceplate ( the one with sticking buttons ) returned to Mk1 faceplate again, because he couldn't use the blue PG ( pro-glare :-) ) faceplate.
He would be in for another AR display too :-)
Of course without the discount, but anyways he also thinks it is worth it ...
Nils
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#19177 - 08/10/2000 12:50
Good display for sunny weather ...
[Re: loren]
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member
Registered: 09/06/1999
Posts: 197
Loc: Germany
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>The AR faceplate won't make your display magically readable in direct
>sunlight. This is a problem in every head unit i've ever seen.
Off Topic, because the only good way to do it that i know works with LCD, but just to let you know:
Some Manufactorers manage to create LCD Displays in a way that it looks like LED Displays in normal conditions ( black background with illuminated pixels of the data to diplay ) and like a cheap LCD in sunny conditoins -> inverse ( light background, dark to black pixels ).
So with this technology there is only 1 ( One ) certain amount of lighting that makes the display unreadable, everyting above and below renders a perfect readable display.
Now THAT's good ...
( my behatred Clarion 2175 + DSP did so, a crappy piece of **** besides that, it costed more than an empeg, Arghhh )
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#19178 - 08/10/2000 13:00
Re: lousy state of Mk2 now ... Where's the good ne
[Re: dmz]
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member
Registered: 09/06/1999
Posts: 197
Loc: Germany
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>I guess what I'm trying to say is that if the Empeg people decide that they
>will send free AR panels to those of us who live in regions where they're an
>absolute necessity, I'll be very happy.
Gosh, you will see a lot of people rushing to south california, just to get those panels for free :-)
( do you know a place where i can get a flight & bed for $9 so i save $1 in total ??? )
:-)
Nils, from rainy Germany
Maybe i should check my eyes ( and my friends' eyes too, we all can't read the display even if it is a bit cloudy )
Now that would be fun, if it turns out that all of us "display complainers* just need glasses :-)
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#19179 - 08/10/2000 13:11
Re: lousy state of Mk2 now ... Where's the good ne
[Re: Nils]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 21/05/1999
Posts: 5335
Loc: Cambridge UK
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Maybe i should check my eyes ( and my friends' eyes too, we all can't read the display even if it is a bit cloudy )
I find this very strange - you shouldn't have any difficulty reading the display in all but the brightest conditions. I can clearly read the blue display on a sunny day provided the sun isn't shining through the back window directly onto the faceplate - i.e. the brightness is fine, just the reflection is the problem.
We have seen two players with a display fault, in which the display is VERY dim all of the time - quite hard to read even indoors under normal background lighting. A rule of thumb is that you should still be able to read what's on the display with the dimmer set to minimum brightness when indoors under normal lighting.
What colour display do you have?
Rob
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#19180 - 08/10/2000 23:56
Re: lousy state of Mk2 now ... Where's the good ne
[Re: rob]
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member
Registered: 09/06/1999
Posts: 197
Loc: Germany
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Hi rob !
My mk2 was delivered with blue display and later on i got the red display that i ordered.
The display isn't too dim i think, now, without the filter, it is way too bright when driving at nite, the trouble is more to have too few contrast when using the display filters ...
Nils
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#19181 - 09/10/2000 09:52
Re: lousy state of Mk2 now ... Where's the good ne
[Re: rob]
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addict
Registered: 09/06/1999
Posts: 559
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
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I just have to shime in here and say that my Mk II has absolutely no readability problems. I can even make it out (somewhat at least) in direct sunlight. In contrast with that, the Pioneer Head unit that I also have installed has been nearly 100% unreadable in any daylight in the last car I had it installed in and the CR-V it's in now along with the empeg. I can't see what the problem with the empeg display is and the only reason I might go with the AR Coated screen is if people find that the Blue is bluer then the current Cyan colour.
I think the subsidised price is a small price to pay and I doubt pioneer would ever give me a newly designed face for my stereo based upon the fact that I can't read it.
empeg guys, you rock! Service and support is top notch! Three "gifts" have arrived in the mail so far from you guys and I always get excited when I see the pretty white bubble envelopes show up in the mail!
#170... I got SN: 080000101 12 gig Blue!
_________________________
12 gig empeg Mark II, SN: 080000101 30 gig RioCar SN: 30103114 My blog
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#19182 - 09/10/2000 10:18
Re: lousy state of Mk2 now ... Where's the good ne
[Re: ShadowMan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31597
Loc: Seattle, WA
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I just have to shime in here and say that my Mk II has absolutely no readability problems. I can even make it out (somewhat at least) in direct sunlight.This is interesting... I'm seeing two ends of the spectrum being posted here on this board. On the one end, there are the folks saying that their Mk2 is totally unreadable in sunlight, and there are others, like you, who say that it's fine. Those that have readability problems are hoping that the AR panels will miraculously solve their problems. But then we also have reports of at least two players which have hardware problems making their displays run dimmer than they should. Is it possible that the hardware problem is more widespread than originally thought, and some of the folks screaming for AR panels actually have faulty displays? I don't want to start a run on returns for Empeg or anything, I'm just concerned that some customers on this BBS might be putting their energies into the wrong place. Without a high-tech light level meter, how would one be able to tell if the display is running at the correct brightness? I'm sure there's some variation from panel to panel, but in general, and in layman's terms, how bright should it be? Here's my stab at it: I have a Mk1, which has no night-dimming feature. It runs at full brightness all the time. If I park in the garage at night, with all the lights off and just the Empeg running, most of the visuals are bright enough to actually hurt my eyes, and I have to switch to a more subdued visual. If driving late at night, most of the visuals are so bright and distracting that I have to switch to the StarDust visual to keep it from bugging me too much. ___________
Tony Fabris
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#19183 - 09/10/2000 11:33
Re: lousy state of Mk2 now ... Where's the good ne
[Re: ShadowMan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 21/05/1999
Posts: 5335
Loc: Cambridge UK
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The AR coat won't change the tint to any appreciable degree.
Rob
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#19184 - 09/10/2000 11:42
Re: lousy state of Mk2 now ... Where's the good ne
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 21/05/1999
Posts: 5335
Loc: Cambridge UK
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It's VERY obvious if you have this particular problem - it's hard to read the display even at night. The maximum brightness in this case is roughly equivalent to the minimum dimmer setting on a normal player.
Rob
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#19185 - 09/10/2000 23:10
Re: lousy state of Mk2 now ... Where's the good ne
[Re: rob]
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member
Registered: 09/06/1999
Posts: 197
Loc: Germany
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Hmm really hard to tell, as lightness is so hard to compare by us silly humans ( and i don't have a measurement device )
But if there is'nt a level in between 100% okay and the "even hard to read at nigth" faulty displays that rob mentions, mine should be okay, a comparison that i can find:
The display in my Mk2 WITHOUT any filter faceplate is about as bright as my Mk1 with green AR filter ...
( so the plasma itself might be a bit dimmer )
But:
I see the main problem in the CONTRAST not in the brightness ...
( example, if you remove the green filter from the mk1 the display is harder to read in sunlight then before, even if it is brighter )
AND as a followup thought to this, the conrast is influenced by:
-1- The outside light conditions -> the more sun the worse display contrast
-2- The arrangement and total "shine-through" area of the car's windows ( or even worse like in my convertible -> having no roof at all )
-3- The display itself, so the combo of plasma display with filter glass, which surely IS worse in the Mk2 compared to the Mk1 right now.
-4- The angle in which the empeg resides in the car, in my car it looks up 20 degrees ( VERY approx ) if i could make it "look deeper" then it wouldn't be half the trouble ( but i can't ).
So you shouldn't wonder too much if different people report different problem levels or no problems at all ...
For some the readability might be 100% equal to the Mk1, but with having a clearer display it might look even more crispy then on the Mk1 ...
So i think those 4 parameters above are enough to produce this confusion, i hope my display isn't defective, but if robs assumption about " the display is okay or THAT dim that everyone would notice its broken" is valid, mine seems to be okay.
Nils
P.S. and then don't forget about different priorities that people see the problem.
Some maybe have problems reading the display 20% of all times, but simply don't care, others can't read it 10% of all time, but it drives them crazy, don't forget, we all have our different behaviours...
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#19186 - 10/10/2000 02:18
Re: lousy state of Mk2 now ... Where's the good ne
[Re: Nils]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 19/05/1999
Posts: 3457
Loc: Palo Alto, CA
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The VFD drive circuitry in the Mk2 was improved over the Mk1 - in particular the filament heater driver. The Mk2 isn't any brighter than the best mk1's, but mk1's tended to vary enormously in brightness; we can't get any brighter than the mk2 is, we are running the display at optimum settings.
The difference between the empeg display and some other in-car VFDs is that we use a coloured filter. This does improve the contrast, but as it's coloured it obviously blocks some of the spectrum and reduces the brightness. Other head units with VFDs tend to have custom VFD glass with different colour areas (eg, red, yellow...) and just use a "neutral" (looks like smoked glass) filter to enhance the contrast, but not to block a significant amount of the spectrum.
At some point I might try to see if we can get a few neutral panels made for the empeg to see what it looks like. It'd be brighter, but the colour wouldn't match anyone's dash, really - it'd just be the natural blue-green colour of the VFD itself.
Hugo
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