Cause when you pull the trigger on a gun, it goes bang and shoots a bullet out of the barrel, and if properly aimed it can incapacitate the bad guy leaving him to either die as he ponders whether it really was worth his life to burgarlize people, or it can leave him severely wounded while the police show up and then he can have 15 years in jail to think about it.

That 12 gauge you mentioned -- do you take it to the grocery store when you pick up milk?

So exactly how does this dog thing work?

They bark a lot, and scare the crap out of people who might otherwise think about breaking into your house. Then they decide to move on to another, easier target.

--Dan.

but I would never consider owning a gun. Just too many risks.

It just the opposite to me. There is too much risk in NOT protecting your home and family.

That 12 gauge you mentioned -- do you take it to the grocery store when you pick up milk?

No, but it stays in my closet with a box of shells next to it. They better hope they rob me when I'm not home.

I'm just talking about the future. I would really feel more secure having one

This is exactly, precisely, the point that Micheal Moore was trying to make in Bowling for Columbine: In our country, people purchase guns because of fear. Because people think that the world is an unsafe place and that the gun will somehow make them more safe. The problem is the culture of fear, not the guns themselves. The fear is what makes people want to shoot other people.

I'm not trying to make light of your loss, or of your feelings of being violated. I've had my car ripped into twice, so I have experienced some of the same feelings before in my life. Agreed, not nearly on the same scale as you're feeling right now. And it wasn't my home that was broken into. But you have my sympathy for being the victim of a crime, and I'm very sorry to hear about your loss.

I think I'm with Rob. If I were in your shoes, I'd be trying to figure out how to relocate to a less crime-ridden neighborhood rather than trying to buy a gun. Buying a gun means that you're buying into the culture of fear and crime that exists in that neighborhood. You're becoming one of them.

I know that relocation is a difficult thing and it isn't always a viable option for some people, depending on situation and finances. Though events like this tend to make people look longer and harder at what's really important in their lives. Is relocation really impossible, or is it merely inconvenient? Is it more or less inconvenient than having to buy a gun just to feel safe?

They bark a lot, and scare the crap out of people who might otherwise think about breaking into your house. Then they decide to move on to another, easier target.

Yep. I'd rather catch them for good, instead of scaring them off onto someone else, although I do agree that a dog is the best alarm system you can get.

No, but it stays in my closet with a box of shells next to it.

That was the point. Darwin came home to find the house being robbed. Unless you've got the gun with you all the time, you might as well not have it.

The vast majority of robberies in my area are when no one is home. See, the burglars have figured out that an empty house is an easier target. Makes sense.

--Dan.

The sound of chambering a round in a 12 ga shotgun has a profound effect on any idiot.

If the perps are in your house and you drive up, don't go in the house. Call the cops. Yes they can get away as in the original post, but you're alive and not worrying about whether or not they are armed.

If you are sleeping, with your trusty 12 ga no more than 3 feet away, and the perps enter and awake you, chamber a round. If it gets to the unfortunate point of having to use the gun, d33zy is right, use something that won't kill your neighbor. I keep my .44 mag with .44 special loads, they'll stop in the perps torso and not kill Junior next door. And shoot to kill, or they'll sue you in America...

Rob's comment about allowed to shoot them in the back in TX, are you referring to one of the first CCW deaths a few years ago? A guy coming back to his vehicle in Austin saw a guy breaking in. He chased him for three blocks and shot him in the back. The perp died, and the CCW guy went to prison, and rightfully so IMO....

For me, if I came home and saw that, I'd do exactly what he did (honk and such and dial 911 on my cell phone), that or drive right by and still dial 911, hoping to catch them in the cat. I'd never run up on them, gun or not. That's just asking for trouble! Either from them, or afterwards. Property can be repurchased. Lives, mine or theirs, can not.

However - I can see how having a gun on hand might still be nice. Imagine if they'd come back second time and he'd been at home asleep. Maybe they thought he left because the car was gone, when really it was in the shop. So they come in and he wakes up. Then what? Be nice to have a weapon of some sort in case they decide not to run when they realize you're actually at home.

I've pondered this a lot recently as well. I live in a fine neighborhood, about a block from some railroad tracks that separate it from a not-so-good neighborhood. Lots of apartments and sirens a half mile away. I've thought about a shotgun for the reason I mentioned above. I'm asleep one night, and I hear someone walking up the stairs. Hell, I don't actually need a gun, but a device that SOUNDS like a shotgun being pumped or a pistol being cocked. A laser pointer would be cool too, for the effect. If my mom dropped in for a surprise visit she'd scream and let me know it was her. If it was a thief I think they'd run for their lives. It's really all I would want.

I'd pray never to need to use the thing, but sure wouldn't mind having it near where I sleep at night. BTW, I have no kids to worry about using it the wrong way, if I did I might think of something else as a deterrent - which is really what I want. Not a device to kill with, but a device to get someone to leave back out of the house! And one that doesn't have to poop twice a day and get stuck in the kennel when I go out of town. Dogs are best for your neighbors to have, and you to get to play with once in a while.

On a different note, what a drag if they break in while you're gone and steal your gun

---edit---

I was typing while Dave was replying. Same as what he said. Thanks, glad someone feels the same (I think is how I read that).

what a drag if they break in while you're gone and steal your gun

Simple, buy a gun safe, and keep the cheapo 12 ga under the bed for nighttime defense... Besides who'd want to shoot someone with their favorite gun only to have it locked in evidence for years to come?

-edit-
Yes you read it right. I own guns for target shooting, collectors items (M1 Garands) and protection, but I never EVER want the opportunity to actually use it on someone if I can avoid it. But peace of mind is a nice thing, and gun and shooter education is wise.

Buying a gun means that you're buying into the culture of fear and crime that exists in that neighborhood. You're becoming one of them.

That is pure BS. So are all cops one of them too? Becoming one of them means stealing, raping, and murdering. Owning a gun doesn't make you a criminal.
Some people's philosophy is to run and hide from criminals, then call the cops and hope they get lucky and catch the perps one day. This only empowers the criminals and makes their job that much more easier. You should stand against and fight people who do wrong instead of just letting them walk all over you and then putting the burden on a few people with a badge to stop them. To do this, you need the right tools. Criminals won't risk their lives to steal your tv. The more armed and honest citizens there are in a community, the safer it will be.

I understand completely everything you just said. That mentality is exactly the problem, exactly the reason we live in a country with such a high incidence of firearm deaths.

Hopefully most of those deaths are of criminals.

Also, many murders are prevented by people protecting themselves with firearms without firing any shots.

Greetings!

I am sorry to hear about your loss. I do not know what the laws are like in your jurisdiction. You should check with your local police station to see what the laws involving gun permits are. They, or any local rifle club, may also be able to give you a good idea about what it is like to actually use deadly force in your area. Local clubs are also a good place to sign up for training: for instruction in taking care of the weapon, ways to store the gun to prevent accidents and for target practice.

You may also want to research local papers for the last known incident, and find out what happened then.

An important fact, though. Do NOT buy a gun if you are not comfortable in handling one, if you do not get training in how to use it and store it properly, or if you do not intend to use it if confronted. A gun is not a bluff - if you raise a weapon, you must be ready to use it or it will be taken from you and used against you. And being passive in the event of a robbery (armed or not) can still get you killed.

For public record: I am officially a "gun nut". I am a life member of the NRA... I do not own many guns personally, nor did I buy guns out of fear of being robbed or for protection. My father was a hunter, and my brothers and I were all trained in how to use them. I personally am a horrible shot and I do not know how I would react if put into that situation. I hope I never find out.

I would really feel more secure having one and just need to know when it's okay to shoot it without getting assault/murder charges

I hope you understand that it would be a false sense of security.

If you had had a gun in your car when you came home and encountered the thieves, and had been so foolish as to approach them with it, the chances are very high that you would be dead now.

You think the thieves didn't have guns of their own, and far more motivation to use them than you had to use yours? Not to mention far more skill and experience in their use?

One of the luckiest things in your whole life is that you didn't have a gun,

tanstaafl.

> No, but it stays in my closet with a box of shells next to it. They better hope they rob me when I'm not home.

Hey d33zy, you know that stupid bravado and Rambo-like confidence that you will come out in top in a firefight that you have? The criminals have it too. They are not worried about your guns, just like you don't seem to be worried about theirs. There is very little crime prevention value in guns.

I keep a 9mm in my garage and a 45 in my bedroom.I have kids so I bought mini gun vaults for each gun.there made by a company called gunvault.they have a embeded hand print on top so you can olpen them in the dark in about two seconds.It would have been really nice if you had one in your garage.and if you ever do have to use them shoot to kill or don't shoot at all,you would'nt want them to come back and sue you.and most important tell the cops you feared for your live and did'nt have a choice.

you know that stupid bravado and Rambo-like confidence that you will come out in top in a firefight that you have?

You mean balls?

There is very little crime prevention value in guns.

There's very little crime prevention in being a pussy.


I still don't get the liberal logic.......Unarmed equals safe protection? Being armed equals danger! Oh no, I might shoot myself! Or I might make the bad guy mad at me! I'm so scared!

If you had had a gun in your car when you came home and encountered the thieves, and had been so foolish as to approach them with it, the chances are very high that you would be dead now.

The chances are very high that he'd still have all his shit right now and the theives would be sitting in jail.

If you know nothing about firearms, please do some research on them and have someone teach you in their use before you become over confident in just having one around. There is a world of difference between having a shotgun close by and carrying a handgun (open or concealed) everywhere. The laws vary from state to state, so check in to your state laws. They are a great tool once you know how to use them and when they are to be used.

Please do a little more research before you apply such a blanket assumption to a subject. Most criminals do not carry a weapon and the laws make this distinction - ex: 'robbery' vs 'armed robbery'. It is very seldom that someone who is committing a burglary is also armed. If someone brandishes a weapon, you let them have whatever it is they want, objects are easier to replace than your life.

I personally carry a 10mm (a VERY powerful handgun) on my hip and .40 caliber on my ankle, everyday, whether I'm at work or not. That should hint at the line of I've work I'm in. There have been 3 separate cases (in 3 different states) where I wasn't on duty that I can credit being armed with saving my life. I would consider that to be a very large crime prevention value in guns.

> There have been 3 separate cases (in 3 different states) where I wasn't on duty that I can credit being armed with saving my life

Wow, you must lead an amazing life to have had three near death experiences. Most people, even cops, never have even one.

You are incorrect sir; most have more than one experience where their life is threatened. A 'near death experience' is something totally different that people have said to experience.

in Austin, no one is required to wear anything above the waist - male or female. I saw this in action the first weekend I was in Austin (exercised by females). From then on I know that Austin was a magical place.

They have a similar law in Ontario, and believe me, the people who always chose to exercise their "right" were not the ones you want to see naked.

/me shudders at the memories.

I personally carry a 10mm (a VERY powerful handgun) on my hip and .40 caliber on my ankle, everyday, whether I'm at work or not. That should hint at the line of work I'm in. There have been 3 separate cases (in 3 different states) where I wasn't on duty that I can credit being armed with saving my life.

Let me guess... you're a burglar?

Peter

This whole topic is quite strange for a swedish guy like me...

In sweden no one(except cops) is allowed to carry a handgun in a public place. Guns only allowed in shooting ranges. It is very very uncommon that anyone is being robbed/threatened with a gun(except between the criminal themselfs).

And just talking about shooting people in the back when running??
I can understand a good beating ...

I feel for the ones who had a burglary - but killing people?

But on the other side, in sweden you can be sued if a burglar breaks a leg on your slippery stairs - that sucks.. :-)

Fredrik

That should hint at the line of <sic> work I'm in.

The Mob?

-Zeke

ps: my $0.02 I have to go with d33zy on this one. I don't pack, or keep my weapons under or near my bed, but the logic of being unarmed = safe doesn't make any sense to me whatsoever.

In reply to:

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The sound of chambering a round in a 12 ga shotgun has a profound effect on any idiot

---

Reminds me of a harrowing experience I had as a teeneger....

Me and a friend decided to get some apples from someones apple tree one night at around 2am. So here we were up high in this huge tree filling our pockets with apples and the back door of the owners house opens. We froze immediately. This guy started yelling at us to get out of there and we were ever so careful not to make a noise. He then sings out to his wife to get him his shotgun. We both jumped and ran for our lives. I somehow never got a scratch or bruise. I jumped from a height of about 20 feet, going through the branches of the tree with no care for myself, ran through a few more feet of densly packed undergrowth and found my motorcycle and took off. The whole time I was wondering where my friend had disappeared. I shut off the bike and hid a little ways away.... about 2 hours later my friend show up, coming out of the trees limping and bleeding from every limb he has. He ran the wrong way and just went deeper and deeper into the woods. I laughed the whole way home.

I don't own guns, my keys are always left in my truck and often left in my car and suv. The suv (a CR-V) has remote power locks so she gets locked most of the time (it's so easy) but my car and truck are almost never locked (unless I am out of town). I live in a community of about 800 with the closest community being about 30 minutes away and only having a population of 800. It's sometimes nice to live in the boonies. Hardly ever a break-in, and when there is the fucknut is always caught.

I still don't get the liberal logic
Don't drag politics into this... I'm liberal, I say shoot him, make sure you kill him or else you'll get sued.

Being liberal doesn't make you a pussy, just smarter

<wipes off monitor>

Thanks for that great start to the morning. It's going to be a wonderful day.

After reading all of the previous comments, I just have to jump in with another of my overlong posts:

First thing right away: I do not own a gun, nor can I ever see myself owning one. Short of getting into the military and being physiologically prepared/altered (or whatever) to kill another human being, I don’t think I could pull the trigger. The exception to this might be in the case where my wife was being raped or murdered, but even at that I see it very unlikely that I would actually have a gun available, loaded, and the chance to aim with a steady hand. I also don’t live in an area where I feel particularly vulnerable. A gun in my house would definitely be a more dangerous addition than it would be worth.

Having said all that, I do think a person should have the right to protect his or her property, and at gunpoint if necessary. That is NOT to say that stuff should be valued over a person’s life. That IS saying that the right of ownership and a feeling of security is more important than the possibility a criminal might get hurt. By entering a home to take something that belongs to another person, a criminal has already decided that the stuff in question is worth risking his or her life AND that the homeowner’s sense of security is of very little value. This was the choice of the criminal, not the homeowner. The homeowner’s decision is what steps are acceptable to protect his or her sense of security. Ultimately it would be great if the police could do this job, and sometimes they can, but there really is no substitute for a people being able to protect themselves and their property.

And while it sounds good to say that a sense of security should not be valued over a human life, the bottom line is that a personal feeling of security is that important in this culture. That is why we have laws concerning ownership, property, and trespassing. If the police had arrived at Darwin’s house before the criminals got out, they most certainly would have been carrying guns and willing to use them if necessary to protect Darwin’s sense of security. The real question is not whether a sense of security is worth protecting at gunpoint; it is whether this is a function that must be carried out by the police or whether the individual has this responsibility. Of course this is an ethical question with many different viewpoints, and the result is states and countries with different laws on the subject. But I think it’s safe to say that society has deemed a sense of security worth protecting at the risk of violence.

As far as the whole “buying into the fear,” thing, I think the point is being missed. In Darwin’s case he’s buying into the fear because the fear is real. There is no reward for pretending a danger doesn’t exist when, in fact, it does. There is no question that people are willing and able to violate his sense of security and take from him stuff that is not theirs. The only question (again) is to what extent he can go to protect himself. The idea of moving is the best one all around, and I am very glad that I live in a place where I don’t consider this violation to be a question. But increasingly this is becoming more difficult to find in today’s world. People ARE violent and people ARE willing to violate others to get what they want.

The last thing I have to say, though, is the most important: the ultimate solution is not more guns, and if we ever believe that it is we really are in trouble (this, in fact, may be exactly Moore’s point, and if so I can agree). I think the problem is that we don’t have a good solution, or at least not one that everyone will embrace. There will always be people who will take advantage of each other and no real way to motivate them not to. People have tried to fix the problem of human sin by punishment, eradication, looking for the best in others, along with a host of other methods, but to this point all have failed. I personally believe the only hope humanity ever has of finding true peace is found in Jesus and the working of the Holy Spirit within our lives, and that is why I labor to try and convince people of my faith. However, my personal beliefs aside, we are in trouble, the answer is not more guns (though I do think weapons can and are used for protection), and collectively we do not have a good solution.