#193209 - 12/12/2003 09:04
Electric Guitar Opinions
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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I’m not sure how many guitar players we’ve got here, but there have to be at least a few. I’m looking at getting my first electric guitar soon, and I’d like some advice.
My situation: I’ve been playing guitar for years, mostly acoustic, though in high school my dad did have an old Kramer guitar I used to mess around with. I currently play a Martin D-28 and use as my primary instrument live, though I do play electric on a few songs. Our style is folk/pop to folk/rock, and it is the more rocking songs on which I play electric. Currently for shows I use a friend’s Mexican Strat (w/ modifications) through my POD with his floorboard.
So my questions:
Single Coil or Humbucker? What is the real difference between the two? From what I’ve read it sounds like Humbuckers are better, but I’m a little concerned that the sound might be overpowering when I’m playing a more “textured” electric part behind the other guitarist’s acoustic. However, on at least two songs the electric guitar is out front with a lot of distortion and very much the lead rock instrument.
Maple or Rosewood neck? What is the real difference, or does it matter?
Finally, I’m trying to stay at or below $600, though I might be as willing to go as high as $800 if what I really need is an American Strat. Any recommendations on a solid, usable guitar in that price range? I am very willing to buy a used guitar in good condition. So far I’ve been primarily looking at the Mexican Strats and Japanese Wolfgangs (you know, Eddie Van Halen’s guitar). Both are foreign made, but should that really matter? It does seem that there is more difference between the American/Mexican Strats than the American/ Japanese Wolfgangs. Because of our style I’m really looking for something that will texture well behind an acoustic as well as get out front and really rock.
Any input would be greatly appreciated!
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-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#193210 - 12/12/2003 10:27
Re: Electric Guitar Opinions
[Re: JeffS]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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I'm not an expert, but from what you're describing, I think that humbuckers might come across a little harsh. They tend to pick up harmonics better than single-coil pickups and have an edgy quality to them, making them really good for distorted or overdriven amplification, but make them a little ... tinny? ... for clean playing.
Without having heard the music you're playing, I'd take a guess and say that you'd probably be happier with a semi-hollow-body Rickenbacker or maybe a Telecaster. They both have good folk-rock roots, especially the Rick; the Tele is more countrified. A Strat is more the jack-of-all-trades guitar, and you won't go wrong there. (Though I don't think that Fender's quality has picked up enough to really merit spending the extra dough over a quality knockoff. I could be wrong, though, as I haven't checked in recent years.) I also think you won't go right. There's always something better than a Strat for whatever you're playing, but if you change styles enough, buying four guitars may make less sense than buying one that do them all reasonably well.
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Bitt Faulk
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#193211 - 12/12/2003 11:08
Re: Electric Guitar Opinions
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Good input. I actually already knew about the Rick and plan to buy one at some point, but I'm not sure how we'll I'd work for the lead stuff. Maybe the Tele would work better; I hadn't even considered it.
As for the different styles of guitar, I was thinking I'd pickup up a "Rock" guitar right now (hence the interest in Humbuckers), and then a "texture" guitar at a later point. True that a Strat would probably do everything well enough, so maybe that's my best initial step.
I've now talked my office into going to look at guitars, so that's where we're headed now!
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#193212 - 12/12/2003 11:16
Re: Electric Guitar Opinions
[Re: JeffS]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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You could try looking at a guitar that has a humbucker bridge pickup and single-coil middle and neck pickups.
Edit: Like This Epiphone Strat knockoff. I know Epiphone is cheap-level Gibson, but Gibson has improved its quality enough that I can believe that Epiphone is not bad.
You might want to ask the guys at the guitar shop what they think is quality
Edited by wfaulk (12/12/2003 11:20)
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Bitt Faulk
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#193213 - 12/12/2003 11:59
Re: Electric Guitar Opinions
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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You know what? Tinny is not the right word. That implies a brightness that's not there with humbuckers. It's like tinny if the treble has been EQ'd out.
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Bitt Faulk
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#193214 - 12/12/2003 12:28
Re: Electric Guitar Opinions
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Well I just got back and I have to tell you, I was pretty impressed with the way the Mexican Strat sounded and felt. The Wolfgang was nice, but you were right about the humbuckers: the single coils sound better for what I’m doing- even the rock stuff. For the money the Strat is going to be hard to beat, though I’ll try a few of the knock offs. The one thing I did decide: I like the maple neck over the rosewood. Oh, and the guy at the store’s opinion: “you can’t go wrong with a Strat.”
On a tangent, one thing I don’t get is why guitar shops are still showing these things prices at the “suggested retail” point and trying to mark it down. The Strat I played was marked at $500 when I know for a fact I can buy it online for $350. I realize the first thing that would have happened if I’d asked about it is that the sales person would have “given me a really good deal”, but it’s not doing shops any favors to have prices listed higher than was can easily be found online.
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#193215 - 12/12/2003 12:36
Re: Electric Guitar Opinions
[Re: JeffS]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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What brand was the Mexican Strat? I have a Fernandes and have been pretty happy with it, though I don't play much anymore. Of course, looking at their web site, it looks like Fernandes has decided to go away from the knockoff route.
I forgot about the rosewood vs. maple thing. Honestly, I don't think that they sound that much different. I think that the electronics and strings make up a lot more of the sound than anything, followed by the hardware, followed by the body, followed dead last by the fretboard wood. On the other hand, the different finishes that they put on maple vs. rosewood makes a lot of difference in how its played. Personally, I think that the thick lacquer that they tend to put on maple makes it sticky, and I tend to like the finish that's on rosewood better, but at the same time, I don't think that I'd make a decision based on that. I'd be more concerned with things like how thick and wide the neck is first.
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Bitt Faulk
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#193216 - 12/12/2003 12:53
Re: Electric Guitar Opinions
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Oh it was just the standard Fender. It played really well, though, and sound pretty darn good.
As far as the maple vs. rosewood, it didn't change the sound at all, but it did make a difference in feel. Actually the Strat I played was rosewood, but some of the other guitars I tried with maple just felt better to me. Since the Start can come either way, I figure I'll get one with the maple.
And actually I did try the Telecaster as well. It sounded good, but I didn't care for the feel at all. It felt much too thick and bulky.
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#193217 - 12/12/2003 12:59
Re: Electric Guitar Opinions
[Re: JeffS]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31597
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Single Coil or Humbucker? What is the real difference between the two? Single coil pickups sound brighter and sharper. Their sound is characterized by the Fender Stratocaster and Telecaster models. A musical example would be the "skank" upbeat strokes in reggae music.
Humbucker pickups sound warmer, fatter, with more low end and less brightness. Musical examples would be any basic power-chord rock with lots of beefy low-end chords. Think AC/DC. When played clean without distortion, a humbucker pickup will tend to sound more appropriate for Jazz music.
A humbucker pickup is merely two single coil pickups side-by side, wired in opposite directions. The purpose of wiring them this way is to cancel out any external hum caused by nearby electrical equipment. A guitar pickup is more or less an electromagnetic antenna, and a single coil pickup that's near a 60-cycle electrical source (such as a computer monitor or a fluorescent light) will pick up that sound and amplify it.
Some versions of Fender-style guitars have had the option of a "stacked humbucker" which has the two coils stacked atop each other instead of side by side. This comes close to having the sound of a true single-coil while still having the noise rejection features of a humbucker.
Something very important you should know about humbuckers: Many guitars with humbuckers (such as my old Aria Pro guitar) have a switch called a coil tap which deactivates half of the humbucker, turning the guitar into a single-coil guitar with a flick of the switch. So I can go back and forth between single-coil and humbucker right in the middle of a song if I want to.
Finally, you might want to look into the Roland V-guitar system, which lets you turn any electric into any other electric+amp combination via sound modeling. Note that this is not a synthesizer system so it doesn't suffer from tracking delays... everything comes through including string scraping, feedback, whatever you can play, exactly as you play it. Got a cheap Japanese guitar, but you want to sound exactly like a Fender strat through a Marshall stack with Celestion 12's? Press a button and there you are. Want to sound exactly like Keith Richards on "Start Me Up", including the guitar, amp, and the nonstandard tuning? That's a named factory preset. Very much worth looking into if you've got the cash.
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#193218 - 12/12/2003 13:15
Re: Electric Guitar Opinions
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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I disagree somewhat with: Many guitars with humbuckers (such as my old Aria Pro guitar) have a switch called a coil tap which deactivates half of the humbucker, turning the guitar into a single-coil guitar with a flick of the switch. So I can go back and forth between single-coil and humbucker right in the middle of a song if I want to. While it deactivates the electronics in one of the sets of pickups, thus reactivating the hum and deactivating the weird harmonic stuff it does, you still have those extra magnets there affecting the string. It does sound a lot like a single-coil pickup, but not exactly.
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Bitt Faulk
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#193219 - 12/12/2003 13:23
Re: Electric Guitar Opinions
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31597
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Fair enough. But for someone who mixes styles in their music, or for someone who can't decide between the two pickup types, it's very useful.
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#193220 - 12/12/2003 13:24
Re: Electric Guitar Opinions
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Damn straight.
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Bitt Faulk
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#193221 - 12/12/2003 14:13
Re: Electric Guitar Opinions
[Re: JeffS]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 08/02/2002
Posts: 3411
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Oh, and the guy at the store’s opinion: “you can’t go wrong with a Strat.”
I disagree. Strats are too heavy for my liking and haven't evolved much beyond their origins. Their history is too steeped to allow change.
But that is a personal preference.
One thing to consider is that many humbuckers have a center tap which allows them to be used in a single coil mode, meaning that you can have your cake and eat it too.
The intended purpose of a humbucker is to increase the signal to noise ratio - effectively they can double the signal from the strings whilst eliminating pickup of background electomagnetic noise. While you may prefer the single coil sound, you may find that on occasion the humbucker is useful. A center-tapped humbucker would give you this flexibility. Another option would be to find a guitar that has both single and humbucking pickups installed.
Don't forget to check out other manufacuturers too. eg, Ibanez. The S470 falls into your price range, has 3 pickups in a HSH configuration, a lightweight mahogany body, rosewood fingerboard on a maple neck yada yada...
[edit]
I see that Tony and Bitt got in here between me writing most of this post and actually submitting it. Oh well. 
Edited by genixia (12/12/2003 14:17)
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#193222 - 12/12/2003 14:28
Re: Electric Guitar Opinions
[Re: genixia]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Strats are too heavy for my liking Apparently, you've never held any Gibson guitar.
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Bitt Faulk
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#193223 - 12/12/2003 14:38
Re: Electric Guitar Opinions
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Apparently, you've never held any Gibson guitar. LOL. That was one thing I did like about the Wolfgang. It was pretty light.
Actually I liked the Wolfgang a lot, though it probably doesn't fit our style enough to warrant a purchase. For sitting around and just playing, though, I think it'd be fun to own. The drop-D thing was really cool, but while I use alternate tunings on my acoustics all the time, I just don't see me doing the drop-D grunge thing too often . . . then again maybe I just don't know how to best utilize drop-D on an electric. (As a side note, I'm playing in a church performance tommorrow night which requires me to Drop-D tune my acoustic. Ah the irony!). Also the guitar might have come off better if it'd been in tune or I'd had a hex tool with me so I could have corrected the problem (since the Floyd-Rose tuners were already maxed). I gave it to the sales person and he ran off with it, never to return.
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#193224 - 12/12/2003 14:42
Re: Electric Guitar Opinions
[Re: JeffS]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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I hate those Floyd-Rose things. Maybe it's just me, but they seem to go out of tune almost instantaneously. Of course, the only person I've ever played with who owned a guitar with one was the worst guitarist I've ever heard, so maybe he was just remarkably incompetent.
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Bitt Faulk
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#193225 - 12/12/2003 14:54
Re: Electric Guitar Opinions
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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My dad’s guitar with had them and I didn’t have too many difficulties with tuning, but I also didn’t use the tremolo that much. Still, having a Floyd-Rose on my guitar right now would be another overkill feature.
The one thing I forgot to mention that I really liked about the Wolfgang was that it had zero tone control. Just a volume knob and a pickup combination switch, and the switch wasn’t located someplace I’d accidentally bump it. I’ve got all sorts of tone control on my effects, why do I need more on my guitar? That’s just something for me to bump while I’m recording and mess up my track. I prefer simplicity that works, which is probably why I’ve stuck with acoustics until now.
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#193226 - 12/12/2003 16:01
Re: Electric Guitar Opinions
[Re: JeffS]
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old hand
Registered: 14/02/2002
Posts: 804
Loc: Salt Lake City, UT
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I have a friend with a Ibanez custom guitar, with a Floyd-Rose. His style has changed a lot from Van Halen (why he originally wanted the Floyd-Rose) to perfecting John Petrucci(Dream Theater), and now to softer song writing where the Floyd-Rose is such a nuisance that he jams pennies through the back side to help it stay in tune better.
I don't know if you would be into it as well, but you can always change out the pickups at a later date if your style changes. I am a beginner, with a cheap Ibanez POS. Although I haven't changed the pickups yet, I did rewire my humbuckers and went from a 3 position pickup switch, to a 5 position that mimics a PRS guitar. It cost me a total of $20 for pots and knobs, then just a bit of time to redo the electronics. Sounds much cooler! That's why I would say to make sure you like the feel of the guitar, and the wood its made of.
_________________________
-Michael
#040103696 on a shelf
Mk2a - 90 GB - Red - Illuminated buttons
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#193227 - 12/12/2003 16:16
Re: Electric Guitar Opinions
[Re: wfaulk]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 08/02/2002
Posts: 3411
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FR type trems are a bitch to tune and historically are a pain to keep in tune. The most important thing is to ensure that the strings are fully stretched to begin with. The root cause of the problem is that the tension in the tremolo springs is supposed to balance the tension in all 6 strings, so if one string stretches, the whole tremolo moves to equalise the tensions again, resulting in 5 sharp strings. Beyond that issue, the pivot is a 'knife' edge that is supposed to remain in a stationary point on the posts. In reality, cheaper FR-type trems have knife edges that aren't very hard so they can become rounded with use, resulting in them being able to 'roll' off of that pivot point. Change the pivot point, change the tuning...
This problem is also seen due to the tremelo post itself shifting. Setting the post height sets the action height, so they are nearly always adjustable, screwed into thread inserts set into the body. The metal-metal tolerances and vibration can allow the post to effectively move in 3 dimensions, enough to shift the tuning. Better trems have set screws to lock the posts to the inserts to avoid this from happening.
Of course, gross incompetance should never be ruled out either 
Having said all that, I wouldn't recommend a FR-type tremolo for dropped tunings since you'd have to change the trem spring tension every time you change tunings (unless of course you can dedicate one guitar to each tuning!) FR trems are also useless for playing double stop bends since sharpening one string flattens the others.
Ibanez have recently introduced a new tremolo, the Zero Resistance tremolo which addresses most if not all of these issues. It uses ball bearings instead of the knife edge, and has some gadget that will keep the guitar in tune through a G/B/high E string break, and also allows double stop bending.
(It's included on the 2003 onwards S470 guitar I mentioned earlier)
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#193228 - 12/12/2003 16:21
Re: Electric Guitar Opinions
[Re: Waterman981]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Yeah, I've been thinking about that. The guitar I've been using in concerts is a modified Mexican Strat where he's changed out the pickups and some other stuff. His advice has been to do something similar: buy the cheap strat and upgrade as I need. I just want to make sure that whatever I get is going to be good enough that it will work in live shows right away. Otherwise I'd just buy a squire or some other insanely cheap guitar until I had more experience.
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-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#193229 - 12/12/2003 16:22
Re: Electric Guitar Opinions
[Re: wfaulk]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 08/02/2002
Posts: 3411
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Apparently, you've never held any Gibson guitar.
LOL. Not for a few years, and never on a strap around my neck which is when weight bothers me the most.
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#193230 - 12/12/2003 16:30
Re: Electric Guitar Opinions
[Re: genixia]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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I mean, Les Pauls are heavy, heavy, guitars, but the worst are the Firebirds; it's like their headstocks are made from lead. I'm pretty sure you could break your foot if you let go while one was strapped around your neck.
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Bitt Faulk
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#193231 - 12/12/2003 17:00
Re: Electric Guitar Opinions
[Re: genixia]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31597
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Ibanez have recently introduced a new tremolo, the Zero Resistance tremolo which addresses most if not all of these issues. I'm going to have to look into this. Sounds fascinating.
I just recently did a lot of work on my guitar's tremolo to get it ready for the Blindsight recording session, and I'm keenly interested in tremolo technology.
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#193232 - 12/12/2003 17:11
Re: Electric Guitar Opinions
[Re: genixia]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Having said all that, I wouldn't recommend a FR-type tremolo for dropped tunings since you'd have to change the trem spring tension every time you change tunings I think that's the whole point of having the D-Tune switch built into the guitar, but I can't say how good it works because the guitar wasn't in tune to begin with. unless of course you can dedicate one guitar to each tuning! Heh, I do exactly that with my acoustics. Of course, using a tuning of DGDGAD is very difficult to get to quickly from a traditional tuning. It just means I have to use one of my Takamines rather than my beloved HD-28. I have one guitar that pretty much stays tuned down all the time so I can just pick it up and practice. I don't plan on getting into aleternate tunings on the electric though. It's already such a pain on the acoustics!
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-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#193233 - 12/12/2003 17:15
Re: Electric Guitar Opinions
[Re: JeffS]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31597
Loc: Seattle, WA
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unless of course you can dedicate one guitar to each tuning! Heh, I do exactly that with my acoustics. If I recall correctly, Joni Mitchell has been using the Roland V-guitar system on tour recently because it allows nonstandard tunings at the press of a button...
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#193234 - 12/12/2003 17:18
Re: Electric Guitar Opinions
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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If I recall correctly, Joni Mitchell has been using the Roland V-guitar system on tour recently because it allows nonstandard tunings at the press of a button... Ok, Ok, you got my attention with that one!
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#193235 - 12/12/2003 17:25
Re: Electric Guitar Opinions
[Re: JeffS]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31597
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Basically, the V-guitar system uses a hexaphonic pickup, just like on the guitar synths. Essentially a separate transducer for each of the six strings.
This means that it can process each string independently. Most of what it does is merely to sound-model the input from a given string to make it sound like something else when it goes out the outputs. But in addition to sound-modeling the tone and characteristics, it can also alter the pitch. So you can do a true 12-string, or a true nashville-tuning, or any combination of string pitches you want.
You could have the bottom two strings sound like a bass guitar and the top four strings sound like a mandolin. (For example.)
Or have all six strings sound like a specific brand and model of guitar and amp, but have them at your chosen pitches instead of the standard pitch.
Your original guitar has to be in tune, though. For instance, if you call up a drop-D patch, and your E string is a little off, then the dropped D will be a little off, too. It is sound-modeling the output, not mapping it to MIDI or anything like that.
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#193236 - 12/12/2003 17:30
Re: Electric Guitar Opinions
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Ok, well what about This guitar? I just found it while looking for your V-Guitar, but after buying a POD I really trust Line 6.
Edit: doesn't seem to have alternate tunings though. Still, I wonder how close these really are?
Edited by FerretBoy (12/12/2003 17:38)
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#193237 - 12/12/2003 19:09
Re: Electric Guitar Opinions
[Re: JeffS]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31597
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Yes, the Line6 Variaxe is a similar concept to the Roland V-guitar. One difference is that the Variaxe is a complete package, guitar and electronics, whereas the Roland V-guitar system is an external pedalboard with a hexaphonic pickup that you can attach to any steel-stringed guitar.
Line6 also has an amplifier with some electronics built in which does the same thing.
In fact, my friend Jeff has got both a V-guitar system and that Line6 amp, and he loves them both. Jeff's neighbor has a Variaxe, which is what prompted him to get the amp in the first place. As a pure side-note coincidence, his neighbor happens to be Ed Rotberg, one of the Atari programmers who worked on the original Battlezone arcade machines. Still haven't met the guy, stuff hasn't worked out for that yet. But I digress.
I just now tried to call Jeff to ask if the Variaxe does alternate tunings or not. He wasn't around. I'll be at Jeff's tomorrow, and if I remember to ask him, I'll post the answer here.
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#193238 - 12/12/2003 21:10
Re: Electric Guitar Opinions
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31597
Loc: Seattle, WA
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I just spoke to Jeff, here's the skinny:
Line6 Variaxe Guitar:
- Does pickup and guitar modeling only.
- Does not do alternate tunings.
- Allows you to duplicate the sounds of many popular guitars by using its selector switch and knob.
- Not programmable, choose only from its built-in presets.
- Form factor: Actual guitar.
Line6 modeling Amplifer:
- Counterpart to the Variaxe, does amplifier modeling only.
- I think it has some built-in effects.
- Form factor: Actual amplifer/speaker cab combo.
Roland V-guitar system:
- Does both amplifier and guitar modeling.
- Includes built-in effects as well.
- Programmable, can create your own presets by modifying parameters and saving them.
- Does alternate tunings and unusual instruments.
- Form factor: Floor pedalboard, can add it to any guitar by attaching the hexaphonic pickup.
- Works best when plugged directly into a mixer (so that your amplifier doesn't color its amp-modeling sounds).
So there you have it.
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#193239 - 12/12/2003 22:13
Re: Electric Guitar Opinions
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Wow, great info! A few more questions if you don't mind pestering him some more: Will the modeling amplifier do more things than my POD will, or is the same thing in amplifier form? Because if not, I've already got amp modeling covered. And of the two (Line6 vs Roland), which has the better guitar modeling, since that's what I'm mainly interested in? The last thing is how does the Variaxe play as a guitar? I'm not terribly picky since I haven't honed my electric chops yet, but I don't want to be playing on a Squire or anything . . .
Oh, and I'm very proud to say that the Line 6 models the Martin D-28 . . .my guitar! It just feels good to know I'm playing a "classic".
One cool thing about the Roland is I could play my Martin for all my alternate tunings. Of course, if I were to use the Variaxe I could just use the D-28 setting for my acoustic stuff (though that feel be really wierd) and keep my D-28 tuned down for my "alternate tuning" songs.
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#193240 - 12/12/2003 22:54
Re: Electric Guitar Opinions
[Re: JeffS]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31597
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Will the modeling amplifier do more things than my POD will, or is the same thing in amplifier form? Dunno, he hasn't got one of those POD units and neither of us have played with one. So neither of us has a comparison on which to base an answer. You'll have to look at the specs at the Line6 site and see if you can glean the information that way.
And of the two (Line6 vs Roland), which has the better guitar modeling, since that's what I'm mainly interested in? Not sure, since he's never tried using the Variaxe in a recording situation. He has told me that in his current recording project, he's sometimes using the V-guitar's modeling, and sometimes using the Line6 amp modeling with a regular guitar, depending on the recording situation. Each one has its strengths and weaknesses.
The last thing is how does the Variaxe play as a guitar? Neither of us has spent any time playing one, so neither of us is qualified to answer that. I will say this... Never buy a guitar sight unseen. Always sit down and play it yourself. It's very much like test driving a car. You'll either fall in love with it, or there's going to be something specific that bugs the living sh it out of you, and you won't know until you actually play it. The only exception to this rule I can think of is with companies like Musician's Friend who (if I recall correctly) let you buy an instrument online and then return it if you don't like it. But that's a lot of hassle compared to just finding the nearest Guitar Center outlet and driving to it.
Oh, and I'm very proud to say that the Line 6 models the Martin D-28 Don't get your hopes up. Now, I've never heard the variaxe's acoustic modeling, but I have to say that I haven't yet heard a modeling system that modeled an acoustic well enough to pass as "real". The modeling systems I've heard all do a fantastic job of turning an electric into another electric but when they try to model an acoustic using electric strings/body, they end up sounding like a piezo-pickup acoustic/electric. There's sort of a "quack" sound to the tone of acoustics that are amplified with a piezo pickup which is very distinctive. You can hear it in many live performances that involve acoustic guitars, and I admit that some guitarists like that sound. But it doesn't ever sound natural. It never sounds like an acoustic that's been well-mic'd with real condenser microphones.
In fact, not even with an acoustic guitar can you get a natural sound out of a pickup. Only very recently has there been an acoustic guitar that sounds natural when directly amplified: the new line of Taylor acoustics with their new "expression system". That one you can plug the guitar straight into the PA and it sounds jaw-droppingly good, without the slightest hint of piezo "quack". But that only came out last year. I bought my new Taylor just as the expression system was coming out, and I didn't know about it until after it was a done deal. Fortunately, if I ever decide to upgrade, my Taylor is one of the models that can be retrofitted with an expression system, so that's always an option for me.
So if you're planning on getting a Variaxe or a Roland system with the sole purpose of emulating an acoustic sound, then definitely arrange to spend time actually messing with it and hearing it in person before making a purchase decision.
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#193241 - 13/12/2003 00:31
Re: Electric Guitar Opinions
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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In fact, not even with an acoustic guitar can you get a natural sound out of a pickup. No kidding. My Martin sounds awful live, and it has a nice fishman pickup under the bridge. I actually run it through my POD to give it compression and a little reverb, but it still sound pretty bad.
So if you're planning on getting a Variaxe or a Roland system with the sole purpose of emulating an acoustic sound, Naw, not really where I was going. Even if it had the best acoustic sound in the world, I'd feel kind of cheap playing acoustic licks on an electric. I was mostly joking when I talked about doing that earlier. My comment about the D-28 was more pride at playing a "classic" than wanting it to make an electric sound like it. Never buy a guitar sight unseen. Yeah, this I know from playing acoustics. You don't think I'd drop 2K+ on a guitar without playing it do you? I'd consider Musician's Friend only if they had a much better deal and if I'd at least tried out the model. and sometimes using the Line6 amp modeling with a regular guitar My current project we're doing all the electrics with my buddies strat and my POD and I can say it sounds amazing! My interest in an electric is mostly for live performances, as I'm probably not going to purchase it before the electric guitar tracks are all down for this project.
Anyway, thanks agian for all the information, both Tony and everyone else. I have a lot to think about now.
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#193242 - 13/12/2003 01:15
Re: Electric Guitar Opinions
[Re: JeffS]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31597
Loc: Seattle, WA
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My Martin sounds awful live, and it has a nice fishman pickup under the bridge. Okay, then do yourself a favor. Whatever you do, DON'T test drive a Taylor with the Expression system through a PA board. Not unless someone has absconded with your wallet, checkbook, and credit cards. Because if you do, you'll drop up to three grand in a heartbeat.
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#193243 - 13/12/2003 01:26
Re: Electric Guitar Opinions
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31597
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Although I do have a cheaper alternative than an expression system... There's a few floor effects boxes out there which will warm up the sound of a Piezo pickup and make it sound "close" to natural. Both in a live situation and on a recording. They don't sound as good as the Expression system, and they don't sound as good as truly mic'ing the guitar properly, but they are decent.
I used this Yamaha unit for some of the acoustic recording bits on Blindsight. I only used it because I was stuck doing emergency last-minute recording without a studio. If I'd had my druthers, it would have been done with proper microphones, but that just wasn't available to me at the time. The results of that recording can be heard in this MP3 sample from Blindsight.
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#193244 - 13/12/2003 02:39
Re: Electric Guitar Opinions
[Re: JeffS]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 08/02/2002
Posts: 3411
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Finally, I’m trying to stay at or below $600, though I might be as willing to go as high as $800
LOL. Better hide your wallet.
_________________________
Mk2a 60GB Blue. Serial 030102962
sig.mp3: File Format not Valid.
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#193245 - 13/12/2003 08:21
Re: Electric Guitar Opinions
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Whatever you do, DON'T test drive a Taylor with the Expression system through a PA board. Not to worry, I won't! I have my acoustic solution, and I'm not changing for anything anytime soon.
I've actually heard pickup systems for acoustic guitars that sounds nice, but they are a LOT of work, requiring a suspended mics inside the guitar, stereo outputs, and other nonsense. My friend's band (who is HUGLY popular in Christian music and does all this for a living) had all of their acousitics rigged up to sound fantastic live, and they really did good. Then after their first nation wide tour someone finally said "Hey, you know with drums, keyboard, electric guitar, and three part harmony, people really can't tell the difference whether we go through all this trouble or not!" And now they run their acoustic guitars on single channels pretty much dry. I tend to take the same approach: my guitar still sounds better than a Takimine or Ovation when I play live, and once the whole band has kicked it, it's not that important if every nuance comes out.
Edit: And when I said "awful" it's not really that bad. It's just not even close to what I hear when I play at home or in the studio.
Edited by FerretBoy (13/12/2003 08:23)
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#193246 - 13/12/2003 08:27
Re: Electric Guitar Opinions
[Re: genixia]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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LOL. Better hide your wallet. Heh, true enough. Based on some of this discussion I might be waiting a few months longer than I figured before buying a guitar. I spoke with my buddy (the who's letting me borrow his strat for gigs) last night and he said he'd "be my best friend" if I got the Veriax. We're going to try to find one locally this week and take a test drive, as well as the Roland system if possible.
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#193247 - 13/12/2003 08:35
Re: Electric Guitar Opinions
[Re: JeffS]
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enthusiast
Registered: 06/02/2002
Posts: 212
Loc: Virginia, USA
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The one thing I forgot to mention that I really liked about the Wolfgang was that it had zero tone control. Just a volume knob and a pickup combination switch, and the switch wasn’t located someplace I’d accidentally bump it. I’ve got all sorts of tone control on my effects, why do I need more on my guitar? I think its funny that earlier you were saying this, but now you are looking at guitars that have tons of sound modeling built into them.
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#193248 - 13/12/2003 08:38
Re: Electric Guitar Opinions
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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I only used it because I was stuck doing emergency last-minute recording without a studio. If I'd had my druthers, it would have been done with proper microphones, but that just wasn't available to me at the time. I feel for you. I did a project for our worship pastor at church which went something like "hey, can you drop by Saturday and play this part for us?" I said "sure" and showed up ready to go. They direct lined my guitar dry (wouldn't even run it through my POD) and did one take, which they never went back to listen to it- they were on to tight of a budget. *Shudder*. We don't always get the best of environments to work in do we? For my own project in which I have the time to do things properly, I will absolutly not direct line my accoustic. I was considering using a certain studio here locally for some cuts (because I've been traveling to Houston to do all my recording at my best friend's house), but ended up not using it because the sound engineer was insistant on lining the guitar. I don't care how close a lined guitar can sound to the real thing, nothing beats micing.
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#193249 - 13/12/2003 10:03
Re: Electric Guitar Opinions
[Re: kswish0]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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I think its funny that earlier you were saying this, but now you are looking at guitars that have tons of sound modeling built into them. LOL, I am going down a different road aren't I. See, I have an open mind: my point of view can change in only a matter of hours! FWIW, my feelings of wanting simplicity was the reason I was resistant toward the "guitar modeling" approach. It was also the reason I was resistant toward getting a POD. However, that was one of the best purchases I've ever made, so I thought I'd at least explore this a bit. And simplicity is still the name of the game: In a perfect world I'd have to carry at least four guitars on stange with me: A "rock" electric, a "texturing" electric, my primary acoustic, and my tuned down acoustic. Add this to my rythem guitarists acoustic and electric and you've got quite a bit on stage. Looks impressive but quite a pain when switiching between songs. If I could eliminate a few guitars by adding knobs, I'm willing to make a sacrifice. The bottom line, though, is that I have no idea what I want, just glimmers of insight at various times! I keep thinking "wouldn't it be cool if . . ." and then realizing that that would mean a tradeoff somwhere else. After exploring all the options perhaps I'll figure out what things are really important to me and be able to make an informed purchase. As far as tone control, I think I'd like one extreme or the other: give me complete control or no control at all. I'd rather either not have to worry about it or be able to get exactly what I'm looking for. The middle is having to worry about it and not being able to get the result I want.
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#193250 - 15/12/2003 12:14
Re: Electric Guitar Opinions
[Re: JeffS]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 09/08/2000
Posts: 2091
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland
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Coming in very late here, but thought I'd add my tuppence worth. For the last 13 years I have been gigging with a guitar I made myself with an ESP rosewood neck, Kahler trem and DiMarzio humbuckers - it is probably the fastest guitar I have ever played, and I have the humbuckers wired in so as well as being able to switch pickups out of the loop it is also possible to phase shift one of a pair to get some interesting cancellation effects - one of which gives a very fat sound with sparkly treble.
For basic jamming I have a Charvel Predator (about 10 years old now) which has a very bluesy sound, but when ramped up high is excellent for heavy metal stuff.
A nice all round guitar is my Ibanez JS100, which is mellow and has pretty good sustain for a Floyd Rose trem.
And for any fixed bridge work I use a cheap (sub £500) copy of a Les Paul. It has no 9th fret due to an accident, but it is useful for practicing different shapes and patterns.
For lighter work I have an old Epiphone acoustic and an ancient 12 string - which both sound fine through a cheap mic setup.
For home practicing I hook everything up through a Zoom 4040 (yes I know...but it does do some things very well), and some older stuff (original CryBaby and some nice early DOD pedals) into a Marshall and a Gorilla.
I do find that for everything from Flamenco and Classical through Rock and Roll to Thrash and Metal they give a wide enough range.
Anybody want a jam....?
_________________________
Rory
MkIIa, blue lit buttons, memory upgrade, 1Tb in Subaru Forester STi
MkII, 240Gb in Mark Lord dock
MkII, 80Gb SSD in dock
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#193251 - 15/12/2003 12:58
Re: Electric Guitar Opinions
[Re: frog51]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Anybody want a jam....? That'd be fun, especially given all of our different backgrounds. Pehraps at Jim's 2010 (or whenever it's supposed to be, I don't remember specifics) meet?
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#193252 - 17/03/2004 16:27
Re: Electric Guitar Opinions
[Re: JeffS]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Just as a follow up, I’ve been quietly researching and finally decided on this guitar. After all the discussions I was going to go ahead and get a Highway 1 Strat, but I never really felt good about it. Then I picked up my Bass player’s Carvin bass and I was hooked. It played great, looked great, and sounded fantastic. So I went to the Carvin website and started picking out my dream guitar. Then I found a guitar on Ebay that was the exact model I wanted with the exact options I wanted. It just felt right so I bid on it and picked it up at about 60% of the retail price. It was a risk (since I didn’t get to play it first), but one that paid off. I can’t believe how perfect it feels and sounds. The fretboard seems so long compared to the Mexican Strat I’ve been borrowing for the last few months, even though it only has three more frets. The Ebony fretboard is nice, and what I’m used to because of my HD-28. And the wood finish is gorgeous. Before I bought I would have said that looks don’t really matter to me, but now I’m not so sure!
Because I bought the guitar on Ebay I got a pretty good deal on it, saving about $400 off what it would have cost new, but if I’d have had the cash I would have easily paid $1,000 for it new. I’ve play tested so many guitars I can hardly keep them straight anymore, but this guitar sounds and plays better than any of them, including a vintage Les Paul, an American Strat, a Highway 1 Strat, the Japanese Wolfgang, and a Parker Fly (which is actually probably a better guitar, I just didn’t like it for what I’m doing). The tone is fantastic, especially with the humbucker on. I’ll be able to do some really great clean stuff or rock out as necessary.
So thanks for all the help here. You guys all gave me quite a head start in learning about electric guitars and what things I needed to keep in mind as I went searching. I can’t wait for our next gig.
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#193253 - 17/03/2004 16:29
Re: Electric Guitar Opinions
[Re: JeffS]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31597
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Looks like a very sweet instrument. Congratulations!
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#193254 - 17/03/2004 16:44
Re: Electric Guitar Opinions
[Re: JeffS]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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The fretboard seems so long compared to the Mexican Strat I’ve been borrowing for the last few months, even though it only has three more frets. Probably because it's a through-body neck and not a bolt-on. Much slimmer and easier to get your hand around down below the 20th fret or so.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
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#193255 - 17/03/2004 17:15
Re: Electric Guitar Opinions
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Probably because it's a through-body neck and not a bolt-on. Yup, that's exactly why. I don't know that I'll ever get up there, but it just feels nice having it available! Also the guitar has a massive amount of sustain, which some attribute to the through-body neck. I've read others who say that a proper bolt on can do just as well. Either way, this one sustains much better than the strat I've been playing.
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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