I get this call at 10:00 tonight from a friend of mine. He used to work for the same company I did, but has since moved 2000 miles away. While he was working for this company, he did work for this guy that owns a boat parts shop. You know, like rope, sails, oars, that kind of stuff. This guy has 1 server running linux and 6 client machines that connect to it for his POS stuff. He's running RAID5 with 2 data drives, one parity drive, and 1 hot-swap spare. Some time this evening, the system goes down. All his data went with it as the backup hadn't run yet.

OK. I get a call from my friend in Jersey asking if I could go see this guy at 10:45 at his shop to see if there's anything I can do to bring his data, or better yet, his server, back from the dead. No problem, I say, even though I'm already ready for bed. I throw on some clothes, jump in the car and start the 30-45 minute drive. The only thing that irritates me is that the ENTIRE problem is that his chip fan has frozen solid, turning the heat sink into an insulater rather than a conducter. So basically I spent an hour and fifteen minutes driving all the way across town and back to look at his fan and say "I think I know what your problem is." Now tomorrow I have to go get a fan and drive back to his shop to spend all of 1.5 minutes clipping it in. Total actual work: 6.5 minutes. Plus 2.5 hours driving time. Now, I normally charge $75 or so for general support. I figure for this guy, $100 is more than enough to cover my trouble. I mean, I hate to charge him at all. But I have to. I guess. I mean, if I charge him for 2 hours, that's $100. Which by rights I shouldn't feel bad about, especially since it was an emergency call at 10PM. I mean, a plumber isn't going to cut ME a break if I call him out after hours and my problem is just that one bolts isn't tight enough. I just feel like an ass charging $100 for 6.5 minutes of work, 5 minutes of which was taking his case cover off. Add to all this that it's a 71 year old guy that's just as nice as anyone I've ever met.

Then again, if I don't charge him, I'd really hate to have to drive out there every time a mouse stops responding. Does any of this make sense? I guess it all boils down to the fact that I don't want to charge this grandpa $100 to point at his fan and say "replace that". Oh well. I guess I can't always be the nice guy. Business is business, right? I really think it would bother me less if I needed the money. But I was doing this as a favor to my friend, more than anything. Pbbbbbbt. I guess this is why I'll never be rich.

I say charge him $200 to cover your trouble and late-night time, and that will help ease the sting when you have to make yet another trip soon because you have to replace the CPU which was borderline because of the overheating.

Although it feels nasty, always charge friends and family double rate - because you know they will use and abuse you. And charge even more if it is one of your parents.

Have you ever had one of those,
"This thing came up on my screen so I clicked it and some things aren't working any more,"
calls? That continue,
"Okay Mum, what message was in the box?"
"Erm, I don't know. Something about a dll"
"Right. What did it say when you clicked it?"
"Oh, lots of things, but there were too many words so I turned it off in case there was something wrong."
"Turned it off? With the power switch?"
"Yes" etc etc

Gahh - 4 hours to sort a teeny problem!!!

Sorry - I rant a bit when I get going

Meh. I've had worse...

"I got this CD on the front of a magazine. It said something about Lineniks or something? I installed it to have a look and now I can't find Windows"

Or the classic

"There were these funny looking files in the Windows directory. I didn't put them there and I didn't need them so I deleted them"

You need one of these.

If it's your job then you have to charge him - you'll get abused even more if you don't.

These days I only give support for payment in kind, the better the returned favour the better the support they get. My brother in law is an Indian chef, so I make sure their computer needs support every few weeks

If I did support for a living it would a very different story.

I know how it feels. I was in a Christian music group a couple of years back and we became quite popular in some circles. Not popular enought to make a living, but enough that we'd charge $400 a gig.

Well, there was this one place that had booked us ever since we started playing, back when we didn't charge anything. They started out paying nothing, but then started giving us $100 a gig. The thing was, this place never had ANYBODY there, and it was never any fun to play. The idea was like a Christian club, but something about their execution didn't work (I know what it was, but these were such nice people I'm not going to rant about it). The bottom line was, though, we really didn't like playing there.

So one time they asked us to play and we were just tired. We'd been playing a lot recently, and the idea of playing for less money at a place where no one shows up or pays attention really didn't sound appealing. So we said, "well, we really charge $400 now, so if you'll pay that, we'll come." Now please understand I've never been about the money. I really just love to play music, but our thinking was that there was no way they'd be willing to pay that price for us. Unfortunately I was wrong because they said "we love you guys, sure we'll pay." Well we got there and two people showed up to listen. I felt so crummy taking the money because we did a terrible job (it's hard to play a concert and do it well for just two people). Even to this day I feel guilty about taking the money, especially since these were such nice people. Eventually the club went out of business.

You're too soft.

I have the same problem, so I should know.

Say your hourly rate is $100.
You *must* charge him $100*1.5*time(diagnostic(from recieving call until back home))+$100*time(replacement).

There's just no other option.

I know you feel like a jerk, but it's really because you think he's going to think you're overcharging him for doing something simple. So just don't tell him what the fix was. Fix it, say ``voila'', collect your money, and leave.

And remember that regardless of how simple the problem is to you, on his own he could have never figured out the problem in 100 years. He's paying for your expertise, not just your time.

Like that old joke:
"$50,000 for pushing a button?"
"No, $1 for pushing the button. $49,999 for knowing which button to push."

In between HS and college, I worked at a computer repair shop. I got a call from a public library out in the middle of nowhere. They said, "All of our prgrams disappeared." I said, "Hmm. Strange. Did you try rebooting?" They said, "Yes, this is serious, we need you to come look at it."

So I grabbed my tools and some spare parts and jumped in the car. After driving an hour to get there, I stroll into the library like a modern day Lone Ranger, intent on saving their world. They point me toward the system. It is an old Windows 3.1 system. Sure enough. No icons on the screen.

I quickly moved into action eager to show off my diagnostic prowess. After staring at the screen for a moment, I minimized the empty Program Group someone had created and said, "That will be $60 please."

Next time you're there, check out the pricing on boat gear.

Business is business. He should understand.

Ferretboy's totally right. Doing anything's easy when you know how.

I know my way around computers, and am not scared by a bit of plumbing or playing with the electrics, but ask me to do *anything* on a car and I'm completely lost. And I'm pretty sure my garage doesn't feel any guilt about charging me either!

The fact that you're even fretting over this indicates a level of ethics and integrity that most people (incl. a significant number on this BBS, apparently) can only dream of. I'd cast a vote for a barter/trade relationship (if the guy's boat shop has anything at all you can use, like say a couple of gallons of NikWax or some cool wading shoes/gaiters or something).

I had a similar situation involving my father back when I was in college. I never charged my own family for computer advice before. I was worried when my father got a new PC, then was always bugging me with questions about it. I felt bad, but it began taking so much of my time away from school that I basically said that I would have to charge some money for my time.

Bad idea - that was met with so much bitching and complaining. Even my mother disagreed with me, and she had just divorced my father a few years before. So, yes, it wasn't about the money, it was more to do with the fact that my time was being used up on multiple occasions to fix small issues or answer questions. I probably would not even have pressed the issue except for the fact that I was poor and jobless. I ended up doing the work for free.

I like the "pay in trade" idea, like if I help out a friend or relative with their computer, I wouldn't expect anything in return, but would be happier to receive something, or some service back in return that they perform in their profession or skill.

The fact that you're even fretting over this indicates a level of ethics and integrity that most people (incl. a significant number on this BBS, apparently) can only dream of.

What? The guy works as a PC tech for a living, he fixes the computer of someone he doesn't even know in wildly off hours, and you want him to do it (virtually) for free? I'm about as liberal as they come, but that's beyond the pale.

I don't know, I would not feel right charging my family or friends for tech support. If I don't want to do it, I will tell them to call the vendor, or I'll look up a computer shop in the town they live in and tell them to call the shop. If I'm too busy, I say that I'm too busy to help them out right now, but you could call X and they could help you. If I just don't want to help them, tell them that it would be easier for them to get the computer fixed by someone local. If they want, I tell them that I will fix it when I have time if they drop the PC off at my house. That eliminates me driving to their place to fix their PC.

If you aren't too busy and don't have much else planned then why not fix their stuff? What goes around comes around. I've always helped my parents out with buying computers and fixing software problems even though I'm 1500 miles away. This year I helped my dad buy a new Palm model, and as a thank you for that and all the years I've helped them with their PC problems he bought me a Tungsten C. Granted, that does not come close to an hourly rate that I would have charged if it would have been a business, but that token of appreciation was indeed appreciated.

I generally trade favors with friends for computer stuff. Or sometimes I just do it for free. The thing is, I’ve stayed blissfully ignorant of a lot of hardware type things, so when I get the “I’m have problem X with my new Y”, I generally can say with a straight face, “I’m really not the person to call.” I mean I can figure out stuff if I have to, but generally there’s someone around who can do a better job.

Now every once in a while I do get requests like, “could you write me a program to do X?” Those I almost always do pretty much for free (if it’s a small task) because I just love to write code (I know, sick).

My saving grace is that we have no family on either side living anywhere near us and most of the people we know are computer savvy. So I rarely (these days) get much in the way of requests to fix stuff. And if I do, usually it’s a pretty interesting problem so it’s fun to do.

The one exception is the bass player in my band; he really isn’t savvy at all. But he has an incredible wood workshop and an amazing touch, so I have no doubt I’m going to end up owing him more than he’ll ever owe me!

My girlfriend got me that shirt for xmas, and it was by far my favorite present from anyone. I wish i could wear it every day.

I prefer my "Don't blame me, its a hardware problem".

I generally help family who are local, usually when I am going over anywhere or they invite me for a meal after work. Luckily I rarely get calls from people wanting help on getting a certain piece of software to work.

I did however have two problems reported to me in the past weel week: 1) a friend of my mother's found £230 of international satellite calls on their bill after a dialler somehow got installed, and 2) my uncle has a pr0n dialler on his machine which put £17 of calls on his bill last month.

Both will be receiving attention - the first one has only been reported from Germany so far, so it's worth a look just to report to the newsgroups as a "heads up" on where it came from.

Gareth

Totally forgot about the shirt in my previous post...

Anyway, CafePress don't really have the best quality stuff out there. The color fades too fast for me.
Get it here instead.

... and you want him to do it (virtually) for free?

No, but from the sound of it, *he* wants to do it for (virtually) free. I'm counter-offering the barter system over a ridiculous discount.

YEA! I'm more liberal than Bitt!

I'd never charge my mom or dad anything. Under certain circumstance I might tell them, though, that the equipment or software isn't worth fixing.

My dad's business has been going through terrible losses post-9/11 (think: transportation related to National Airport) and I'll do anything reasonable to keep things afloat for a bit longer.

-brendan

> What? The guy works as a PC tech for a living, he fixes the
> computer of someone he doesn't even know in wildly off
> hours, and you want him to do it (virtually) for free? I'm
> about as liberal as they come, but that's beyond the pale.

Unless he decides to do it pro-bono for a "hard-times" customer or friend of a friend. The important thing here is to make it clear that it was a one time thing.

I've done a bunch of free consulting for low-income friends and/or service organizations. I make it clear, though, that it's not a guaranteed support contract and they should go out of their way to make it convenient to me (e.g. bring me the computer, don't make me drive somewhere to test/fix).

-brendan

What? The guy works as a PC tech for a living, he fixes the computer of someone he doesn't even know in wildly off hours, and you want him to do it (virtually) for free?

I think a lot of you have somewhat missed the point, here.

He's not thinking about doing this as a favor to the Boat Shop owner. He's thinking about doing it as a favor for his friend who is 2,000 miles away.

That puts a different complexion on it.

I have a small business (more of a hobby, really) plowing snow. I have an old Land Cruiser (bought brand new in 1968 for $3500) that costs me very little to operate (figure annual depreciation on the truck is now about $2) and I make about $300 doing my "rounds" every time it snows.

If a friend or neighbor sees me out with the truck and asks if I can plow their driveway, I do it as a matter of course without charge. It takes me 10-15 minutes, costs me maybe half a dollar in gasoline, and as someone said earlier in this thread, "What goes around, comes around." The rewards I receive are out of all proportion to my effort and costs.

"Cast your bread upon the waters..."

tanstaafl.

Hey guys, sorry for posting and dissapearing. OK, problem is now OK. I charged the guy $100 plus parts, then explained that I was doing a favor to Matt and that my normal fee schedule was $65 an hour plus a $25 trip charge due to his being out of my regular "delivery" area. He seemed totally cool with that, and asked for my card so he could call me directly next time.

It's not that I feel bad about charging companies bigger bucks than that to fix their issues, it's just that in this particular case, it felt more like he was just this old guy and I was taking money out of his pocket instead of just becoming a necessary business expense. Today, as I looked around, I suddenly came to realize that this guy makes WAAAAY more cheese than I do, and $100 comes from the company, not him. Regardless of the fact that he owns the company.

Besides, I also came to realize that he wasn't paying me for the actual labor of replacing the fan. He was paying me because I CAN look at his computer and say "That's definitely the problem, and you'll be fine if we just replace that". Not to mention all the work it saved him from having to do if he had to re-input a days worth of sales from payslips.

It's just hard to abstract from the $ / hour model when that's really not what you're dealing with. It's really about taking something that doesn't do what it's supposed to do and making it do what it's supposed to again. Kinda like when you take your car in to get the brakes done and they charge you for $12 in parts and $300 in labor for something that you KNOW only really took them 45 minutes, because they're so good at it. But it's worth it to me, since it'd take me 18 hours to do, since I suck at cars.

Oh, and as a rule of mine, if I can't fix your problem, I don't charge you. Not a dime. And if I feel like I should have been able to fix a problem in three hours, but it takes me nine, I only charge for three. Especially if I pull a stupid and cause myself a lot more grief than necessary. (This happened once. I completely farked this guys exchange server and had to rebuild it by hand. Total PITA, but it was MY fault, not his, and it could have been avoided, had I been more careful) You would probably be surprised how much business this particular rule has bought me in the past. People do NOT like to feel like you're taking them for a ride, but it's become so common, that they're genuinely surprised when I work for nine hours straight, fix the problem and hand them a bill for three hours. They invariably ask why and I get to tell them that I don't make other people pay for my mistakes. All of a sudden I'm not this young smart-ass kid that charges way too much, I'm the computer guy they trust not to tell them they need to replace their computer when all they really need is a new fan, and suddenly I'm worth every penny.

I have to admit, that I do usually do this - despite my post earlier. I got a bottle of Bombay Sapphire for fixing an old Atari 2600, and had my will and testament prepared by a lawyer who had a small issue with his PC that I fixed in under an hour.

Generally, if its for a good friend, I charge a case of beer or a dinner or something.

Oh, and as a rule of mine, if I can't fix your problem, I don't charge you. Not a dime. And if I feel like I should have been able to fix a problem in three hours, but it takes me nine, I only charge for three.

That's the philosophy I generally had when I (tried) to run a shop. Several people brought a PC which was on it's last legs and I'd have a look at it and tell it to them straight (that the thing should really be put to rest, usually). But I didn't charge if there wasn't anything to fix nor if I couldn't fix it. Although the rates were: $60/h, $140 if you tried to fix it, $180 if someone else tried to fix it. Not that I ever charged that; who would admit it?!

I recently installed and set up a long-time friend's girlfriend's computer. He's a mechanic so I'm getting my car serviced next week for the cost of oil etc.


If you put yourself out to fix a business's computer, you shouldn't feel bad about charging appropriately. It would have cost him more to take it to someone else, including lost work time.

A friend of mine is an electrician, because he's qualified about as far as he can go he gets alot of extra work (he's employed by a large building firm during the day). Anyway, he fitted some extra sockets for his cousins friend who then didn't expect to pay because he was his mates cousin. Needless to say he kicked up a fuss and got paid what he was owed.

Don't be guilty mate, you did a job, you fixed the problem as quickly as you could. You travelled a long way (in UK terms ) to get there. I see no problem with charging for your time. It doesn't matter that it only took five minutes, if you've spent two hours travelling then it still counts. If he was just round the corner I'd revise the pricing downwards.

As I see it you helped a friend of a friend, not your friend. That's completely guilt-free billable, especially for an after hours call. Show me an after hours furnace repairman that won't charge for travel time.

-Zeke

Oh. That's another pet hate of mine. When they have a crack at fixing it even when they've got no clue and then lie!

It's always a memorable moment when you open up the case and discover scorch marks on the motherboard because they felt that one of those "black flat things" had gone bad and needed to be replaced with a 100W soldering iron most commonly used for soldering pipework....

Of course you have to ask them what's happened in there and they'll say nothing at all. They've never open it before in their life alledgely and it came like that... Anybody got a number for Asus because I think I know where about 2 lbs of their pipework solder has gone if so...

I'm pretty sure I knew what had gone wrong with that PC as well. It had one of the IBM deathstar 60GXPs and had died which was causing it to not boot. I wasn't going to diagnose exactly what happened as they'd fried the motherboard beyond repair already.

I normally don't charge my friends or family but they understand that I'll get something in return. A couple drinks or a meal. Nothing particularly much but just enough for them to know that I'm not doing this for "free". It's just to stop them bugging me for every single thing that happens to that computer again.