#205519 - 20/02/2004 07:58
Re: Same-sex marriage
[Re: andy]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Are you saying that no one had sex before marriage in Biblical times? Or are you saying that sex before marriage was already frowned throughout the whole Eastern Mediterranean so that Jesus, Paul et al didn't need to mention it? The latter, with respect to the Jewish culture they were speaking to at any rate. I'd don't buy it that on such a key area of human sexuality there would be no mention of it if it were outlawed by God. Well now you're making an argument from silence. I'm certain there are plenty of sins that are not covered explicitly in the Bible; it isn’t a laundry list of what and what not to do. Rather it gives us principles to follow, and one of those principles is that a marriage between a man and a woman is to be exclusive and special, deeper and more intimate that any other relationship we can have as human beings. In fact, marriage is used as an illustration for our relationship with God several times throughout the scripture. But it is something of a matter of interpretation whether sex before marriage is a violation of this special intimacy.
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-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#205520 - 20/02/2004 08:18
Re: Same-sex marriage
[Re: Cybjorg]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 25/08/2000
Posts: 2413
Loc: NH USA
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There is no such thing as a pluralistic society.
...if you have your way.
Sorry, I couldn't give a rat's *** about anyone's religious arguments in support of their bigotry, historical, scriptural or otherwise. These people aren't harming you any more than a Jewish, Muslim, Atheist, Daoist, Pagan, or Mormon couple's marriage harms you. Their marriages rites, rituals, beliefs differ from yours, but you say that it's only the Homosexual's marriage that you must forbid, or at least forbid the title if not the benefits.
I don't mean that to be a flame or a rant, but I'm not sure I can put it any other way.
-Zeke
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WWFSMD?
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#205521 - 20/02/2004 08:20
Re: Same-sex marriage
[Re: JeffS]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5916
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
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The latter, with respect to the Jewish culture they were speaking to at any rate.
Much of the New Testament was not aimed at people with a Jewish background though. It was aimed at Greeks, Romans etc Did the Greeks and Romans also frown on sex before marriage ?
Well now you're making an argument from silence.
No, I'm just pointing out that those Christians that lecture teenagers on the fact that sex before marriage is evil have no evidence to base their "rules" on. Yes the Bible says lots about how precious and special about marriage, but it doesn't say that this special and preciousness is specfically to do with sex. There is a lot more to marriage than sex after all.
There is plenty of evidence in the Bible to allow you to preach that adultery is wrong, but I see no justification for Christians that rile againt pre-marriage sex and claim that there is Biblical backup to their claims.
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Remind me to change my signature to something more interesting someday
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#205522 - 20/02/2004 08:35
Re: Same-sex marriage
[Re: lectric]
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old hand
Registered: 28/01/2002
Posts: 970
Loc: Manassas VA
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What I define a sin as is anything that causes a person to stray from God's will. For the record, no one sin is greater than another.
I tried to keep my mouth shut, but this line got me. I think what bothers me most, is how can anyone pretend to know what the will of "God" is? Much less judge others and tell them they are wrong, simply because some book written thousands of years ago re-written a million times says so. Has anyone ever heard their "god" say homosexuality is wrong? I very seriously doubt it. Is it the same belief system that says when priests mollest children it's pardonable because they ask "god" for forgiveness?
So gay marriage is wrong because "god" says so, I'm sorry thats the same excuse some serial killers use. That mentallity is the same mentallity that causes people to strap bombs to themselves and kill innocents. This is my whole beef with organized religion. This is why my religious friends still refer to me as atheist when I repeatedly tell them that I believe in a creator just not you Christian god.
You want to be Christian and celebrate your religion go for it. But don't push it on those who don't follow, and don't pretend Christianity has a lockhold on the definition of marriage, marriage has been around a hell of a lot longer then Christianity it's not like your religion has a patent on it. If two people love one another and feel deeply enough to make a lifelong commitment, I think thats great.
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Brett
60Gb MK2a with Led's
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#205523 - 20/02/2004 08:39
Re: Same-sex marriage
[Re: JeffS]
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enthusiast
Registered: 12/05/2002
Posts: 205
Loc: Virginia, USA
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As for sex before marriage, there wouldn't be reference to it in the bible because in Jewish culture of the time there wasn't a question that sex before marriage was a bad thing.
Do you mean to say that there was a question whether adultery was a bad thing or not. I find it difficult to believe that your typical jewish guy thought it was OK to screw around on his wife, but not to screw around when single.
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Brent
RioCar MK][a 20GB+80GB
'96 Saab 900s (Not any more)
Still looking for a good way to install in a 2010 BMW 3 series with iDrive/NAV
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#205524 - 20/02/2004 08:42
Re: Same-sex marriage
[Re: bbowman]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Do you mean to say that there was a question whether adultery was a bad thing or not. No, that's not what I was meaning to say. Adultery is clearly spelled out as wrong; the ambiguity is whether sex outside of marriage is a violation of the marriage covenant.
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-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#205525 - 20/02/2004 09:07
Re: Same-sex marriage
[Re: JeffS]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4180
Loc: Cambridge, England
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I'm certain there are plenty of sins that are not covered explicitly in the Bible; it isn’t a laundry list of what and what not to do. The New Testament isn't, but surely the Torah was?
And if nobody in Christ's society had sex outside marriage, then it's no surprise that the prostitutes he was always trying to rehabilitate had problems -- they can't have been making any money.
Peter
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#205526 - 20/02/2004 09:17
Re: Same-sex marriage
[Re: peter]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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The New Testament isn't, but surely the Torah was? Parts of, yes. There ARE lists, I'll grant you that, but even the Torah must be viewed within the context in which it was given. And if nobody in Christ's society had sex outside marriage Ok, I give up on this point! All I was trying to say was that I can easily see the reason for not including explicit instruction about sex outside of marriage. My conviction on this point does not come from direct biblical instruction but rather my interpretation of the principles of marriage.
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-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#205527 - 20/02/2004 09:21
Re: Same-sex marriage
[Re: lopan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Much less judge others and tell them they are wrong, simply because some book written thousands of years ago re-written a million times says so. It’s as valid a reason as any other. We all decide what we think is “good” and what we think is “bad”. My view of good and bad comes from the bible and yours doesn’t. Clearly you believe your source of ethics to be superior to mine; I can accept that. I don’t agree, but I can respect that your opinion is different than mine.
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-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#205528 - 20/02/2004 09:35
Re: Same-sex marriage
[Re: JeffS]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Well, let's take it to another level. Why aren't you lobbying the government to make it illegal to say "God damn it" or to disrespect one's parents or to have a religion other than Judaism or Christianity (or Islam) or any of the other things that the Bible says are sins that are not illegal? Why have you chosen this one point to harp on?
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Bitt Faulk
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#205529 - 20/02/2004 09:41
Re: Same-sex marriage
[Re: JeffS]
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old hand
Registered: 28/01/2002
Posts: 970
Loc: Manassas VA
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Clearly you believe your source of ethics to be superior to mine
No not superior, you've often shown to be very level headed when speaking of this kind of stuff. I didn't intend that to be an attack on Christianity or your beliefs in general. It probably seemed that way, but that particular post hit a nerve, so I appologize. I realize you probably feel it's wrong according to your belief system, which is OK. I just feel it's wrong that such a large group of people (Christian) would have a bearing on the legality of something that doesn't really have an impact on them.
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Brett
60Gb MK2a with Led's
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#205530 - 20/02/2004 09:54
Re: Same-sex marriage
[Re: JeffS]
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old hand
Registered: 28/01/2002
Posts: 970
Loc: Manassas VA
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I guess my biggest question to Christians is, why should this be illegal? Religion aside, give me reasons other then what god says (which is a church/state thing). If it's simply due to your religious beliefs I say your arguments are pretty much pointless because this is a country built on freedom of religion, is it not? And my other question would be, why does it bother Christians so much? If your a Christian and want to remain a Christian you wouldn't think about coming out of the closet or expect to go to a regular church with your life partner (or whatever same sex partners are called).
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Brett
60Gb MK2a with Led's
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#205531 - 20/02/2004 10:08
Re: Same-sex marriage
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Why aren't you lobbying the government to make it illegal to say "God damn it" or to disrespect one's parents or to have a religion other than Judaism or Christianity (or Islam) or any of the other things that the Bible says are sins that are not illegal? Honestly, I’d love to live in a place that was manufactured to my belief system. And I do think that when people of our nation sin it is bad for the nation as a whole. However, I don’t buy into Legislative Morality, where people act moral because the law tells them to. While I want and strive for a government that reflects my values, I also understand that those values are ultimately only realized when individuals share them, not when they are forced to obey them. Why have you chosen this one point to harp on? In fact I don’t feel that I am harping on this one point. I have tried to explain why Christians feel that the term marriage is getting redefined out from under them, why I wish that homosexuals weren’t getting married, and how I think this is going to adversely affect our nation in the long run. But all of this has been in response to questions raised by people on the BBS (including yourself) who seemed interested in another perspective. If I have “lobbied” at all against homosexual marriage, it has been to try and turn people’s hearts toward the God of the bible so that they may love and honor Him and find salvation. Yes I’d vote against allowing homosexual marriage because that is my chance to voice what I think would be good for this country, but I hold the law as only a reflection of values that begin within the hearts of people, so it is hearts that I strive to change. And even at that, I don’t go around telling people not to be homosexuals; instead I tell them about my faith in Jesus Christ.
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-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#205532 - 20/02/2004 10:10
Re: Same-sex marriage
[Re: andy]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 19/01/2002
Posts: 3584
Loc: Columbus, OH
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Can you point me to the verse(s) that say sex outside of marriage is a sin ? I know there are verses that say adultery is a sin, but I'd like to see ones that say sex outside of marriage is sinful. 1 Corinthians 6:18, Galatians 5:19, 1 Thessalonians 4:3 and others depending on how you translate the greek "porneia". Historically it has been translated to mean various kinds of sexual immorality, including, but not limited to adultery, homosexual sex, bestiality, incest, prostitution, idolatry and generally sex with anyone other than your marriage partner. An honest treatment of the Bible's teachings on marriage and fidelity as well as a look of the culture of the time of Christ constrains me to believe that this would include premarital sex.
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~ John
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#205533 - 20/02/2004 10:14
Re: Same-sex marriage
[Re: JBjorgen]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 19/01/2002
Posts: 3584
Loc: Columbus, OH
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Well said, FerretBoy
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~ John
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#205534 - 20/02/2004 10:33
Re: Same-sex marriage
[Re: wfaulk]
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old hand
Registered: 28/04/2002
Posts: 770
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
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Why aren't you lobbying the government to make it illegal to say "God damn it" i just wanted to comment how using God's name to curse someone or something has more weight than any other diety in the US, believer or not. Don't really hear anyone say "Buddah damn it" or Allah damn it" much. Its funny because everytime i hear someone doing so, i just want to go up to them and say "You're a believer? No? But you just called upon God right now! Didn't you just comfirm that God exists?" Nothing really constructive to the matter at hand, so don't mind me :-)
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#205535 - 20/02/2004 11:03
Re: Same-sex marriage
[Re: JBjorgen]
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old hand
Registered: 28/04/2002
Posts: 770
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
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plus you can make an inference from the Sermon on the Mount. 27 "You have heard that it was said to those of old, "You shall not commit adultery.'
28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. Now, you can't have sex without lust, so having sex with anyone that isn't your spouse is basically adultery, inside or outside of marriage.
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#205536 - 20/02/2004 11:38
Re: Same-sex marriage
[Re: lopan]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 20/01/2002
Posts: 2085
Loc: New Orleans, LA
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OK, yes, I believe that mollestation is just as pardonable as homosexuality which is just as pardonable as greed. That is precisely what I believe. There should be some comfort in the knowledge that we all sin. No matter how big or little. The fact is, nobody's perfect. Again it all goes back to forgiveness. I am not going to sit here and tell you that I think all homosexuals are going to hell. I don't believe that. We are all just as capable of asking for forgiveness as the next guy. Please don't take what I'm saying to mean trhat I think I'm better than anyone else. Precisely the opposite. I am trying to relay that we ALL sin, and the nature of the sin matters little to God.
That being said, the consequences for different sins are NOT all the same. Some sins are far more destructive than others and it is the consequences rather than necessarily punishment. The whole point of "God's plan for your life" is that its purpose it to make you happy. By helping you avoid behavior that brings bad consequences, you lead a simpler, happier life.
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#205537 - 20/02/2004 11:57
Re: Same-sex marriage
[Re: JBjorgen]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5916
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
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1 Corinthians 6:18
"Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body. but he who sins sexually sins against his own body."
Galatians 5:19
"The acts of sinful nature are obvious: sexually immorality, impurity and debauchery..." etc, etc,
1 Thessalonians 4:3
"It is Gods will that you should be sanctified: that you should avoid sexual immorality"
(the notes in my NIV study bible say of 1 Thes 4:3 "In the first century moral standards were generally very low, and chasity was regarded as an unreasonable restriction."
So it all comes down to guessing what Paul meant by sexual immorality then?
Given that the churches he was writing to had a climate where pre-martial sex was probably the lowest rung of the sexual immorality ladder (apparently the Greek verb "to Corinthianise" came to mean "to practice sexual immorality"), I find it odd that people think they can guess what Paul meant by that single word and therefore outlaw any form of sex outside of marriage.
_________________________
Remind me to change my signature to something more interesting someday
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#205538 - 20/02/2004 12:05
Re: Same-sex marriage
[Re: lectric]
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old hand
Registered: 28/01/2002
Posts: 970
Loc: Manassas VA
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I understand what your saying, I just don't get "why" it's considered an offense, what about transgendered people? If two people love one another and cleary don't like the opposite sex why is it bad for them to choose to be happy?
Heres an example, a guy I went to school with in a small town, well his parents faught all the time, she was clearly depressed and over the years gained so much weight she was very, very unhealthy. Every Sunday the couple is in church (my church), very religious people. He too (the father)was depressed, the son always had issues, for years this family is suffering. So basically the minute the guy graduates and is off to college, the parents seperate, the father comes out of the closet, appears to be happier then he's ever been. She looses practically all her weight meets a different guy whom she's actually compatible with and every party envolved was visibly changed for the better, except for the kid who got raised in a totally sterile environment void of love.
The church asks the guy to please not come back til your straight again, and he pretty much tells them to get bent.
So basically you've got a couple that are miserable, and one individual that fights his sexuality to conform to the will of the church and so his kid doesn't get made fun of at school. These people were miserable for well over 20 years simply because the guy is gay.
So I have to ask, is it a sin to make everyone in your family miserable because you clearly prefer men? I'd have to say, just from a logical standpoint, that it's more of a sin to stay in a situation that damages everyone in your family.
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Brett
60Gb MK2a with Led's
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#205539 - 20/02/2004 12:16
Re: Same-sex marriage
[Re: image]
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veteran
Registered: 01/10/2001
Posts: 1307
Loc: Amsterdam, The Netherlands
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I just wanted to comment how using God's name to curse someone or something has more weight than any other diety in the US
Yes, because in the mix that produced the current American culture, Cristians of some form or another were the majority, or rather, the most powerful group. But that's just cultural heritage - how many people are actally aware of their religious significance of what they utter when they curse?
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#205540 - 20/02/2004 21:07
Re: Same-sex marriage
[Re: JeffS]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5549
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
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You see, being a homosexual is not a sin. Committing homosexual acts is. Desiring sex is not wrong. Having sex with someone who is not your spouse is.
So... let's allow the gay people to be spouses, and then everyone will be happy.
A flip answer, I know, and really not deserving of the thought and effort you have put into this thread.
However, I am not comfortable with what I perceive as hair splitting on your part. "Being a homosexual is not a sin" OK, we're in (rare) agreement there. "Committing homosexual acts is [a sin]." But committing homosexual acts, particularly in your fundamentalist (and I do not use that word with any disparaging intent!) world view, is the very definition of homosexuality. Do you see the contradiction there?
Are you suggesting that God wants homosexuals to lead lives of misery and deprivation, denying in themselves the very strong desires for love and companionship common to all mankind, indeed, imbued within mankind by God Himself?
Are you saying that at some time in our lives we all chose our sexual preferences, and that homosexuals just made the wrong choice?
Nobody chooses their sexual orientation. Well, perhaps from your point of view that is incorrect: a person's sexual orientation is chosen by God. It does not seem reasonable that the "proper" (that is, less sinful) course of action is to defy that sexuality that was determined by God Himself.
tanstaafl.
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"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
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#205541 - 21/02/2004 01:47
Re: Same-sex marriage
[Re: Cybjorg]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
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Well, I honestly can't find the verse that says this, either. I mean, the clearest verse I can find regarding that is the one in Leviticus... Also note Leviticus. 20:13, For all intents and purposes, that's the same person, saying the same thing, which, as someone pointed out earlier, was Judaic law, as opposed to Christian law. Supposing that is part of Christian law though, how come Christians aren't out killing bunches of people, which is what God said was required? How many Christians also keep kosher, which is also described in Leviticus? How many Christians also sacrifice animals, another of requirement of God in Leviticus? Leviticus also appears to suggest that giving birth is a sin, since it requires the women to give a "sin offering" after a certain length of time has passed from the birth. Ever shave? Get a tattoo (or even just draw on yourself with a pen)? Those are also against the Law according to Leviticus. That book is chock full of things that the majority of Christians now ignore. How is it that Christians find it okay to pick and choose which of God's laws they keep?
In addition to that, I've read other accounts that suggest that the original Hebrew words used, and the later Greek translations, meant a ritual impurity, rather than a violation of law or sin.
1 Corinthians 6:9-10 Which says nothing specific about homosexuality, and applies equally between homosexuality, andheterosexuality.
Romans 1:26-28 The original words used by Paul in this section were also used to describe himself, due to following Christ, as well as using the words to describe God. From what I understand, he was talking about society as a whole, but, that through Christ, such "societal repugnance" didn't matter.
So basically, it all comes down to whose interpretation of the Bible is "correct", and, since no-one currently has an indisputably direct connection to the red phone sitting on God's desk, no-one can speak with authority as to which is the correct interpretation. One viable interpretation can be no more valid than any other viable interpretation.
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#205542 - 21/02/2004 02:08
Re: Same-sex marriage
[Re: Jerz]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
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Can't be married??? By who's law? In my opinion... the laws of nature. Then you have no basis, at all, in disallowing gays to be married, since homosexuality is well documented amongst animals (including a case of non-consensual homosexual necrophilia between two mallards). It's far from rare in animals, and it's far from rare in humans. I assure you, not a single gay person I know has chosen to be gay, given the ridicule and etc. that they have to deal with. (Not being gay, I can't speak in the first person, but I do ask gay friends that question, because I want to know.) Ergo, your "law" is not a "law" in the least bit.
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#205543 - 21/02/2004 02:29
Re: Same-sex marriage
[Re: JeffS]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
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If the people of the U.S. decide that same-sex marriage should not be legal, then that is what the government should support, regardless of the rationale behind the sentament. Likwise, if the people decide that same-sex marriage should be legal, then again that is the choice of the government, regardless of the church. But long time ago, the people of the US decided that all are created equal, and that discrimination should not be tolerated. That trumps all else. Or should we still allow slavery, and deny women the right to vote?
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#205544 - 21/02/2004 02:33
Re: Same-sex marriage
[Re: JeffS]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
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You see, being a homosexual is not a sin. Committing homosexual acts is. Desiring sex is not wrong. Having sex with someone who is not your spouse is. If you say that, and you also believe that gays should not be allowed to be married, it sounds like what you're saying is that you want to deny people the opportunity to not sin (or, at the very least, to decrease the amount of sinning that they do). That doesn't seem to be a very Christian attitude.
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#205545 - 22/02/2004 19:31
Re: Same-sex marriage
[Re: canuckInOR]
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old hand
Registered: 28/04/2002
Posts: 770
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
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Which says nothing specific about homosexuality, and applies equally between homosexuality, andheterosexuality. "Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God."
-1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (NKJV)
"Knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine,"
-1 Timothy 1:9-10 (NKJV)
These three references indicate that homosexual passions and acts are unnatural, shameful, contrary to sound doctrine and deny entrance to the Kingdom of God. This being so they cannot be the basis of a Christian marriage sanctioned by God's Church. The Church exists to save people, not to bless the means of their damnation. No marriage can be sanctioned by the Church if the very basis of the marriage involves acts that put the couple outside of eternal salvation. No matter what our society may legislate, the law of God is clear - that a marriage is not a godly marriage if it is a same sex union.
-pulled from a Christian website.
unless there's another meaning for sodomites, then i think that it's very clear.
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#205546 - 22/02/2004 20:23
Re: Same-sex marriage
[Re: image]
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enthusiast
Registered: 09/06/2003
Posts: 297
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> unless there's another meaning for sodomites, then i think that it's very clear.
Ah, yes, the NEW King James Version. 
Heh. Notably, the reference was to homosexuals as *separate* from sodomites.
And also: are you (or rather, is the xtian site) saying that theives cannot be married? Nor liars? If the conclusion is that those things make you ungodly, and ungodliness makes you unfit to be married, then I suppose noone is fit to be married.
(and again: "sodomites" is derivative of the earlier question about why God destroyed Sodom. Again, there are multiple opinions on the cause or causes of God's ire towards them. My understanding was that they were worshiping Baal instead of God. Others believe it was because they weren't pleasant to guests. And others believe that it was because of homosexuality.)
-brendan
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#205547 - 22/02/2004 21:22
Re: Same-sex marriage
[Re: image]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Well, we're getting further and further removed from the original subject and the original language of the Bible, but assuming that the English word ``sodomy'' means the same thing that it did in the original language, then it has a meaning greater than homosexuality, even though all homosexual sex is sodomitic. To put it clinically, so as to avoid offending as many as possible, any sex act that doesn't involve putting a penis in a vagina is sodomy. That leaves two obvious sodomitic acts that can be performed with a man and a woman as well as with two men.
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Bitt Faulk
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#205548 - 22/02/2004 21:42
Re: Same-sex marriage
[Re: brendanhoar]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 20/01/2002
Posts: 2085
Loc: New Orleans, LA
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Understand that even as a christian, I find this line offensive. The Church exists to save people, not to bless the means of their damnation. Not all sinners are damned. No matter what the sin is. To imply that all those that commit these particular sins is going to hell really bothers me as it's contrary to the central message of the gospel. Not to mention that the "Church" doesn't save anybody. Only forgiveness through the blood of Christ can do that.
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