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#217339 - 16/05/2007 15:09 Re: Best way to record albums/LPs to digital MP3s? [Re: maczrool]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
To be clear, I'm not defending vinyl, just pointing out the inaccurate approximation of high-frequency waves encoded at 44.1kHz PCM.

Quote:
For example, it is possible to reproduce a perfect 1 kHz sine wave even though the digital data has gaps.

That's all well and good, but 1kHz is somewhere in the neighborhood of two octaves above middle C. I'm not in any way arguing about CD's ability to reproduce sound in this range, but there is a lot of data in the very high frequencies that are byproducts and overtones of instruments that some people can hear, and which are improperly reproduced by the CD format. This is the brittleness of digital audio that some people claim to be able to hear.

All that said, the people that can hear those things are probably far, far, less common than the people that claim they can hear them. It also doesn't speak to the terrible noise floor with vinyl. I would be very interested to hear the playback of complete silence recorded onto vinyl and see what the dB level is.
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Bitt Faulk

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#217340 - 16/05/2007 15:56 Re: Best way to record albums/LPs to digital MP3s? [Re: mlord]
canuckInOR
carpal tunnel

Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
Quote:
You've been reading too many suc^H^H^Haudiophile zines. Digital encoding is generally immune to any such imaginations. Sure a crappy mechanism could, in theory, screw it up, but I really doubt there are any decks that crappy in existence, since it's pretty easy to get it right with a digital signal.

Sssh. I was just about to try and sell him a volume knob that would have solved the problem...

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#217341 - 16/05/2007 19:05 Re: Best way to record albums/LPs to digital MP3s? [Re: andy]
andym
carpal tunnel

Registered: 17/01/2002
Posts: 3996
Loc: Manchester UK
Quote:
Quote:
I would rather go back to tape.


You must have very unique hearing if you prefer the sound of tape to CDs.


It depends, if he's talking about 1/4inch reel to reel on a good recorder at 15 or 30 IPS then it is a 'very' close call compared to CD or DAT. I only wish I could retrieve my Studer from under the stairs!

However if it's compact cassette then I agree with you!
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Andy M

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#217342 - 16/05/2007 20:51 Re: Best way to record albums/LPs to digital MP3s? [Re: nortonl]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31600
Loc: Seattle, WA
Quote:
With commercial CDs, however, many have a harsh zingy quality which is very obvious in the car and makes me want to switch off after a few minutes. Home burned CDs from either vinyl transfers or downloaded MP3s don't seem to have this problem.


That sounds like something that could easily be solved with a little EQ. Painstakingly re-ripping a bunch of vinyl records sounds like going the long way around to me. But suit yourself. If you've already found some vinyl rips and you like their sound, then by all means carry on!
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Tony Fabris

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#217343 - 17/05/2007 06:19 Re: Best way to record albums/LPs to digital MP3s? [Re: tfabris]
nortonl
new poster

Registered: 12/05/2007
Posts: 10
Loc: Essex, UK
Quote:
It seems that at least at that facility, that the lacquer master was being produced from a digital source.

This is true of most modern LPs. The thing is that some sounds require a wider groove than others and if you recorded the whole record allowing for the maximum dynamic range, you would get a short playing side. In the old days, you would either get someone very skilled adjusting groove width manually or if they were being lazy, they would just compress the whole thing. These days, they record the master through a digital delay which analyses the sigal and determines the reqired groove width and controls the cutting lathe accordingly. I belive these system operate at higher thean 16/44 though - probably 24/96.

Quote:
I would rather go back to tape.

Quote:
You must have very unique hearing if you prefer the sound of tape to CDs.

Quote:
It depends, if he's talking about 1/4inch reel to reel on a good recorder at 15 or 30 IPS then it is a 'very' close call compared to CD or DAT. I only wish I could retrieve my Studer from under the stairs!

However if it's compact cassette then I agree with you!



Well, I was talking about compact cassette but I was being a bit flippant to make the point. I agree that in most quantifiable ways, CD is superior to cassette but for all it's flaws, it is listenable. Sometimes, I find CDs unlistenable.

I would love a 1/4 tape in the car, but I can't find a DIN E model...(I am being flippant again in case anyone is wondering)

Quote:
But suit yourself. If you've already found some vinyl rips and you like their sound, then by all means carry on!

Sorry, I wasn't very clear about that. All the vinyl rips I have are self made and uncompressed.The MP3s I have tried and liked are not vinyl rips but downloaded from legit music sites but don't exhibit the zingy quality I am trying to avoid, so my problem is not with digital audio per se but some commercial CDs.

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#217344 - 17/05/2007 11:40 Re: Best way to record albums/LPs to digital MP3s? [Re: peter]
larry818
old hand

Registered: 01/10/2002
Posts: 1039
Loc: Fullerton, Calif.
Quote:
The CD reproduction depicted in that graph is indistinguishable from the original. The tone is 10KHz, and the CD reproduction clearly has a very strong 10KHz component. The difference between the CD reproduction and the original tone consists entirely of frequencies too high to hear. The people who chose the sampling frequency of CD audio were not idiots, they were audio engineers. The subsequent people who chose a higher frequency for DVD audio were also not idiots, but they were marketers. 192KHz audio is snake oil. AFAIK no human listener has ever distinguished 44.1KHz audio from 192KHz audio in a double-blind test.


I would bet with the right source, one could.

Remember that with digital sampling, you have to limit the source to less than half the sampling rate to prevent aliasing, leaving only 22khz. 12khz sounds would be made of four level changes.

When CDs first came out, I was into classical big time, and I found the violins nasty sounding. Very distorted. This is really the only instrument that I could hear a difference on, but it was a big one.

Fairly quickly, the engineers did learn to manipulate the bits to get frequency response above 12khz without aliasing. Sony had a line of digital recorders with Super Bit Mapping (SBM) that did this. I bought one for encoding my classical LPs, since at that time nasty encodings of classical works was the norm. The Sony thing did work well, but I never use it any more. I still listen to those encoded LPs...

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#217345 - 17/05/2007 12:26 Re: Best way to record albums/LPs to digital MP3s? [Re: nortonl]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
Quote:
The MP3s I have tried and liked are not vinyl rips but downloaded from legit music sites but don't exhibit the zingy quality I am trying to avoid, so my problem is not with digital audio per se but some commercial CDs.

I seriously doubt those MP3s were made from anything other than the original CDs.

I'm going to go out on a limb and bet that if you heard those original CDs, you'd hear the same "zingy" quality. I imagine that you're hearing the aliasing at high frequencies and the encoded MP3s have had a highpass filter applied that completely obliterates those frequencies.
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Bitt Faulk

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#217346 - 19/05/2007 13:12 Re: Best way to record albums/LPs to digital MP3s? [Re: merc]
schofiel
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/06/1999
Posts: 2993
Loc: Wareham, Dorset, UK
You could not go far wrong than buy the current Numark TT-USB package, which is retailing about 110 quid (I think).

This is a 33/45 RPM turntable with a decent tone arm and cartridge, with a USB interface. It digitises and uses a USB codec (on Windows/Mac) to record the data packets. Audacity is supplied with the package, so it's an all-in-one bargin.

I bought one of these so my Dad could digitise his 1,000+ record collection (some dating back to the 20's) and put 'em on CD. He is not going to bother with MP3 data CDs as he doesn't have a suitable player: so in combination with a CD-burner package (free with his Dell) he's as happy as Larry recording his favourite albums.

What impressed me about this (and not just 'cos I work for Numark ) - up an running in 15 minutes, recording a minute later, learning how to clean up the recording, label and split out tracks 30 mminutes after that, then listening to the finished CD - all inside one hour. Perfectly acceptable quality, even to my jaded ears. It's even possible to record an album at high speed (eg. LP at 45 RPM) and then get Audacity to speed adjust it for you: one shellac 10" 78 came out sounding as clear as a bell after noise processing and speed correction - genuinely astonishing!

So I can highly recommend this as a solution with minimum effort and good value for money. Go for it!
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