I've been watching "Celebrity Poker Showdown", and I'm confused about how the bet/raise system works in the game. They explain the card order of course, but not the betting details.

I've googled a lot of sites and come up with lots of information, but all of it assumes you've played poker before and you know the basics of how the betting rounds work.

So far, here's what I've been able to figure out:

- The table is arranged in clockwise order of: 1. Dealer, 2. small blind, 3. big blind, 4. first action, 5. everybody else. In games where the players aren't the dealers, a "button" is placed to represent seat position one. This seat rotates with each hand.

- Small blind (half minimum) and big blind (minimum) go onto the table first. Only the guys sitting in seats 2 and 3 have to put up blinds, no one else has to bet yet.

- Dealer then deals 2 cards to the players.

- First action guy (seat 4) is now the "beginning" position for the actual betting round. He decides whether to bet or fold, and begins the actual round of betting.

- All other players, in order after the First Action seat, decide whether to call, raise, or fold. (Checking is not allowed until later, after some community cards have been dealt.) This circle of actual betting completes all the way back around to the guy sitting just before First Action Guy.

Now here's where I get confused. I'm fuzzy on this. If everyone calls or folds, then the betting round is done and the flop comes. But if someone raises, then that re-opens the table for another round of betting at the new amount, right?

The questions I have from this are:

If someone raises and opens a new round of betting, is that raise guy's seat now the "beginning" position for the round of betting? Or is the beginning seat for the betting round the same as it has always been: First Action Guy? In other words, If the guy sitting at seat 2 raises, then does only the guy *after* him have to match his raise, or does everyone else in the circle have to match his raise?

Furthermore, when a raise is made, in order for someone to match it, do they have to put in the full amount of the entire call-plus-raise, or just add something to their initial bet to bring it up to match? For instance, if seat 3 had initially bet 10, and seat four puts 15 into the pot, then when it's seat 3's turn again, does he have to put in 15 MORE or just another 5 to match the raise?

I have more questions, but those are the burning ones at the moment.

does everyone else in the circle have to match his raise?

Yes. Betting concludes once everyone's put in the same amount (or folded, or gone all in).

does he have to put in 15 MORE or just another 5 to match the raise?

Just another 5.

Of course, this is just my understanding of the rules. I'm sure Rob will be along in a moment to explain that the way we play Texas Hold-em at "Poker Night" in Cambridge is the simplified rules, and that I'm wrong.

So the circle restarts at the position of the person who made the raise? (And I know this can happen a maximum of three times.)

Next question.

Let's say someone raised from 10 to 20 on the initial deal, everyone called that 20, and we get the flop.

Now, it's time for another round of betting on the new cards.

1. Is the minimum bet 10 or 20?
2. Is first action the person who did that last raise, or is it the original first-action-guy from the beginning?

Tony,

What you are calling the "first action guy" is always the guy to bet first for the entire hand. Bets are resolved clockwise around the table.

If someone raises, the total of previous bets and raises becomes the new bet amount to the player next to bet.

Betting continues clockwise until everyone has called or folded.

For example, let's imagine a 6 player game with Dealer (D), Big and Small blinds (B & S) and players 1, 2, 3.

Case 1: Nobody bets and everyone stays in the game. Well, actually, you need to bet at least the big blind amount to stay in. So, player 1 bets the big blind, followed by players 2, 3, D, and then S puts in the other half of the blind (he needs to put in the other half to call).

Case 2: Someone raises, lets say player 2. 1 bets the blind amount, 2 raises (let's say making the bet 2 times the blind amount). The bet (2x blind) is now to player 3. He calls with 2x blind. Then D, S, B all need to call by betting 2xblind. In the case of the S and B players, they only need to put in the difference from the bet and their blinds. Finally, 1 calls by putting in the raised amount. If all players stay in the game, all will have put a total of 2xblind into the pot. The next round, betting will commence with player 1, the "first action guy".

After the hand is played, the dealer positon moves clockwise (along with all other positions) and then player 2 will be player 1 and begin all betting for that hand.

So, betting always progresses clockwise and just keeps going round as long as it needs to to get all of the raises taken care of.

Does that help? Do you have questions about the limits or only no-limit play? Let me know. I'm no Hold 'Em expert, but I've played a couple tournaments and play "for fun".

Oh, the button usually represents the player who is the "dealer" in a house-dealt game.

Jim

The first action guy is always the same for the entire hand. The number of raises and the total bet on the previous betting round does not affect the betting of the next round. However, keep in mind that the minimum increases on limit games, which is why tables are called "2/4" or "3/6" or whatever.

So, player 1 bets the big blind, followed by players 2, 3, D, and then S puts in the other half of the blind (he needs to put in the other half to call).

Aha, I get it now. Everything for that betting round counts, even the blinds count as part of the bet. So all that's happening with a raise during round of betting is that the minimum is raised and everyone has to up their bets to that minimum.

So after the flop, then again after the turn, is the minimum that new amount or does it get reset to the original minimum?

Okay then how do checks work? Check is to pass without betting yet remain in the game. Does that mean that everything after the flop is a raise? Let's say after the flop, first-action-guy says "check" and everyone does the same. Okay, we see the turn with no new chips on the table. But what if first-action-guy says check and the next guy in line puts 10 into the pot. Is that technically a raise which everyone else has to now match?

Well, there are a couple of questions here. First, minimums:

There are 4 rounds of betting. In limit games, as opposed to the "no-limit" games on TV, the minimum bet for the first 2 betting rounds is equal to the big blind. For the last 2 betting rounds, the minimum bet is double the big blind. So, on a $2/$4 table, the small blind is $1, big blind is $2, the minimum bet for the first 2 rounds is $2 and then $4 for the last 2 rounds.

Now, the only betting round where a bet is *required* is the first round. This is because the players, at a minimum, need to "call" the big blind, which is a kind of "forced bet" that acts to get some action in the game.

Which brings us to "checking"...

After the first round, if nobody has bet yet, the player has the option to "check". This basically means, "I don't want to bet." If all players "check", then there is no bet for that round and the next card is shown. Of course, just because a player ahead of you checked doesn't mean you can't bet. Let's use my symbols from my earlier post. If players 1 and 2 check, player 3, D, S, B still have the option to bet. The betting will continue clockwise and players 1 and 2 will have the opportunity to call or raise.

This brings up an interesting strategy -- "check raising". Let's pretend that you and I are the only players left in the game. I'm the first action player and I have a really good hand. I want to make the pot as big as possible. You've been betting, but if I bet I suspect that you will call. To get more money out of you, I can check, then raise your bet if you choose to bet. Its a perfectly legitimate strategy, but it tends to piss off other players. There are variations of this in no-limit games, too.

Generally, you want to "slow play" a great hand to maximize the pot. On the other hand, you often want to raise on the first round to get out players who are hoping to win the lottery on the flop.

In card rooms around here, we can have up to 9 players at a table. *Anything* can happen on the flop, especially with that many players, so if I have a high pair or A, K in suit, or something equally great, I will raise immediately to drive out some of the players and try to reduce the chance of someone getting a lucky 3 of a kind on the flop.

You didn't really ask about strategy, but betting and strategy are intimately related in this game.

Jim

been watching "Celebrity Poker Showdown"

Also check out World Poker Tour on the Travel Channel.

My friends and I play every week, sometimes twice. We buy in for $10 and there are usually 6-10 of us so its a nice pot. I lost 16 in a row until last week.

I'm finally getting a bit better at playing the player and not the cards.

Still fuzzy on one point.

After the flop, a new round of betting starts. You can just "check" if you like, unless someone bets something, in which case everyone has to either fold or match/raise that bet. Okay, I'm clear on that. I'm even clear on check-raising and why it pisses the other player off.

But.

Is there a minimum for that after-the-flop bet amount?

For example, if, before the flop, someone had raised from 10 to 20, then does that mean that if you wanna bet after the flop, you gotta bet another 20? Or could you bet a small amount?

Is there a minimum for that after-the-flop bet amount?

In limit play minimum and maximum bets are defined before you enter the game. For the first two rounds the minimum bet applies, and for the last two rounds you must bet the maximum (which is usually double the minimum). It doesn't matter what happened in the previous round.

In no limit the minimum bet is the big blind size, and again this resets for each betting round. The increment is then determined by the previous raise - if I bet $10 from left of the button and you wanted to raise, you would have to put in at least $20 (or go all in). You can bet more of course - there is no limit! Usually the minimum bet increases on the turn and river as with limit play, although I'm sure I've seen cases where this has not happened.

There are also spread limit games, which are like limit play but you can bet any amount between the minimum and maximum bets.

So talking of poker on TV - all the US coverage I've seen has been absolutely appalling compared to the UK's Late Night Poker (with Jesse May). Sadly LNP has been cancelled now, and replaced with Celibrity Poker Challenge which is rather less entertaining as the celebrities are usually crap at poker.

Rob

PS Roger - the empeg game is no limit but with no minimum bet, which does tend to mean we get too many people in each pot - but it's not like we take it very seriously!

I'm even clear on check-raising and why it pisses the other player off

Rule #153 Poker players do not get pissed off. Poker players go on tilt*.

Rob

* Not good ones of course.

In limit play minimum and maximum bets are defined before you enter the game. For the first two rounds the minimum bet applies, and for the last two rounds you must bet the maximum (which is usually double the minimum). It doesn't matter what happened in the previous round.

So, let me see if I'm understanding this right.

A game would go like this...

- Small blind 5
- Big blind 10.
- First action bets 10.
- call fold call etc...
- Flop comes.
- Check check check...
- BET happens. Bet MUST be 10 or more.
- Call call call...
- Turn comes.
- Check check...
- BET happens. Bet MUST be 20 or more because the limit is raised because this is the third round.
- Everyone calls.
- River appears, hands are evaluated, someone wins the pot.

Wait a sec, that's only three rounds. Is there a betting round after the river? I so rarely see rivers on the TV show, I'm not sure. By the time it gets to the river, someone's usually gone all in and the cards are turned up in anticipation of the river.

Anyway, what I'm asking is if there's a difference if that red "call" above was a raise to 20, does that make the red 10 there have to be 20 or is it reset to 10?

A raise in an earlier round has no effect on the current round at all - everything resets to the minimum. There is indeed a round of betting after the river has been seen, before hole cards are shown obviously.

Rob

I so rarely see rivers on the TV show, I'm not sure. By the time it gets to the river, someone's usually gone all in and the cards are turned up in anticipation of the river.

That's what sucks about the TV shows. All they ever show you are the big hands. You don't ever see the smaller hands where the players are feeling each other out, which makes following what's going on nearly impossible. (Like, the "why would he ever do that" moments. He did it because of traits he saw in his opponent in the omitted hands.)

Gotcha.

I think I actually understand it now.

All they ever show you are the big hands. You don't ever see the smaller hands where the players are feeling each other out, which makes following what's going on nearly impossible.

I think that's one possible reason that they upped the episode length of Celebrity Poker Showdown from one hour in the first season to two hours this season.

Seems, though, that instead of showing every hand, they're just spending more time on host segments. Makes the show drag too much IMHO.