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I'm voting for Kerry this year, and unlike others, I won't be holding my nose. While I don't think Kerry is the best man in America for the job (I was hoping Wesley Clark would win the nomination) I think he's a much smarter, decisive, and determined leader than he's been given credit for.

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I just think he's run an atrocious campaign, not uncommon for someone's first time around, and especially against an incumbent in such a divided voting base. Kerry has had his work cut out for him, and has not risen to the challenge of defeating the Republican attack machine that's so good at dividing the voters and discrediting the opposition. Kerry and his people, I'm afraid, are no good at playing dirty politics.

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CBS deserves to lose every viewer they have for running with this story. The Democrats, to their credit, didn't latch onto it too strongly, not nearly as strongly as the Bush people latched onto the Swift Boat Veterans for "Truth." But they also have done a terrible job of responding to those attacks, and an even worse job of proving that the Bush campaign has nothing else to stand for except attacking Kerry's Vietnam service. (And if you think Rove isn't attached to those Swift Boat clowns, I've got a bridge to sell you.)

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I think we'll get a much better picture for who's best to lead this country. I have no question that Kerry has the better ideas, and the wherewithal to execute them... Unfortunately, I don't have nearly as much faith in his ability to win an election in a voting base that's so brainwashed by the best dirty politicians in America.

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Could win? Only if all of these peices that he would have no control over fall into place.

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No-lose? Are you serious? Him being exposed in such a fraud would be about as bad as Watergate.

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It's like a sacrifice bunt that got dropped by the pitcher and thrown over the first baseman's head into the stands.

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Also, I think it's the very things that Bush stands for that generate so much anger towards him, so it's hard to say he doesn't stand for anything.

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I can't stomach Kerry only because he sticks his finger in the wind and votes

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or makes speeches based on what he think people will like on that given day.

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That's not leadership by any stretch. That's pandering.

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But IMHO, he's no worse than Bush is in terms of flip-flops.

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To be honest, I only got into this conversation because it seemed innocent enough at first.

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The hate is 10 times worse than the stuff that turned me away from the Republican party during Clinton's stay in office.

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I admit that it's no fun getting piled on here

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To be honest, I only got into this conversation because it seemed innocent enough at first. I've been thinking of posting my own thread for several months about how sick I am of all the hatred in Off Topic. I cringe everytime I click on Off Topic and usually skip it all together. The hate is 10 times worse than the stuff that turned me away from the Republican party during Clinton's stay in office.

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It'd be interesting to discuss views and theories on relavant topics instead of tossing around the word liar or repeating whatever conspiracies are heard on right-wing and left-wing media.

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Don't get me wrong, for the most part, the Bush haters here do a decent job of keeping themselves from frothing at the mouth. But I doubt it will stop after November. Either Bush will win and the Democrats will continue to pound him while seeking an impeachment or Kerry will win and once the reality of that sinks in, people will have to remind themselves how much they hated Bush so they don't feel so bad.

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I admit that it's no fun getting piled on here, but I really don't expect anyone to jump in. Besides, the technology community tends to be pretty "progressive" anyway.

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Here's about all I can see Bush standing for: cronyism, warmongering, corporatism, ignorance, fear, distortion, self-righteousness, being above the law, etc.

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where are all our conservative friends to help balance out the discussion? . . . Don't you fellas get involved in these debates anymore?

I'm trying not to these days, at least not these kind. I enjoy a nice discussion about a particular point of morality or religion, but I don't have much to add to the whole "Bush is evil" discussion. It really all comes down to what you believe about the man and which version of the truth you support. I can't believe some of the things you guys truly believe about Bush, and I know you'd say the same about me.

And like Brad, I'm just tired of reading the Anti-Bush sentiment that is constantly put forth as an obvious truth, full well knowing that there are those here who disagree with the premise. That doesn't mean I think you shouldn't have these discussions or post your thoughts, I'm just less inclined to be involved. It just seems having an objective debate is not really feasible and attempting one is not very constructive.

Ok, I've rambled on enough about why I don't want to ramble on about this, so I think I'll stop now.

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I'm just tired of reading the Anti-Bush sentiment that is constantly put forth as an obvious truth, full well knowing that there are those here who disagree with the premise.

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It just seems having an objective debate is not really feasible and attempting one is not very constructive.

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I've seen noobdy putting their opinions out as an "obvious truth." In a debate like this, everything we say is, by definition, our own opinion. In many of these discussions, I've had my own understanding of the truth changed based on information and opinions others have put forth. Sometimes in subtle ways, sometimes in more fundamental ways. If I thought I already knew the real truth about everything, I wouldn't bother getting involved in any type of political discourse at all.

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I think Bush should have been clearer with regards to his reasons for the war.
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in general I agree with Bush's motives and ideology

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I truly believe Bush is a good man who has made some mistakes

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Do you really think that those people are better off now or will be so anytime in the next, say, dozen years? Their circumstances have certainly changed, but I can't say that one is really much better than the other.

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This is the only part of your post that doesn't make sense to me: how can anyone agree with Bush's motives and ideology, when Bush hasn't made it clear what those motives and ideology are?

I think it's pretty clear that Bush comes from a position of conservative faith. I see in many cases how his faith drives his decisions, so I can say with some amount of confidence that our sense of morality comes from the same source. Politically I find myself somewhat to the left of Bush and most Republicans (I don't support the gay marriage ammendment, I don't think their should be public prayer in school, etc.), but because we share similar belief systems Bush's views are closer to mine than Kerry or just about any other Democrat. Not that a person with similar faith can't be a Democrat, but usually they choose not to be because many of the party's ideals are just not consistend with our belief system. I've said before that I don't feel well represented by these candidates, and that's why I'm so frustrated by the system at the moment. But as far as Bush the man goes (not Bush the politican), I'm pretty sure he and I would find very similar ideals as to where we want this country to go. I just have some different ideas when it comes to how those ideas can affect policy.

As to the rest of your post, all I can say is that you have good points but our options are really limited here. My choices are for either Bush, with whom I agree standpoint of goals and ideals but who has not impressed me with his actions, or Kerry who has largely remained undefined as far as goals go. And when he does define his beliefs and what drives him they always contrary to mine.

I should note that one allegation that is made over and over again that really bugs me is how Republicans say they want to spend less but then end up spending more. This bugs me because it's true and that is truly frustrating. I do think we ought to spend less in taxes and on government programs like the Republicans say, but they don't seem to know how to follow through on that. At least Democratic leaders have some integrity on this point by not claming the can do more with less.

So this is all what I meant by being a weak supporter of Bush. He's the better choice for me, but he certainly isn't the perfect person to represent me in office. Of course, there's no way that person could ever be elected so someone like Bush is probably the best shot I get.

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I think it's pretty clear that Bush comes from a position of conservative faith.

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These people, the ones that make sure you know that they're Christian, their faith is, at best, secondary to feeling superior.

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That comment, and other about Americans who support Bush as being "brainwashed" implying that they are of weak mind is why most conservatives view many liberals as elitists. We feel that liberals view the majority of Americans or Christians as being inferior to them.