#234340 - 02/10/2004 02:37
Re: Poll: Bill Burkett
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/01/2002
Posts: 3937
Loc: Providence, RI
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I suppose it'd be equally odd if someone played "The Ride of the Valkyries" in a Sunday morning service
Or uncannily appropriate, depending on the sermon. 
This sounds suspiciously like rock and or roll!
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#234341 - 04/10/2004 15:29
Re: Poll: Bill Burkett
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5549
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
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The thing that I find reprehensible artistically is that, as an artist, it's your job to inspire thought, and when you choose to limit what you say, you choose to limit your expressiveness. I think that it undercuts the ability to create art. It's like deciding to be an author but refusing to use the letters 'F', 'M', and 'Q'.
I don't look upon it as limiting his expressiveness.
As any writing instructor will tell you, "Write about what you know."
Jeff's songwriting comes from his heart, and is about a subject he knows and loves. I'm guessing he has more to say than he could express in a lifetime, so why should he change his course in order to satisfy somebody else's ideas about artistic integrity?
I don't want to "put words in his mouth" but I am guessing that Jeff's music is done more for his own (very) personal satisfaction than it is for the entertainment/education/?? of others.
Now THAT speaks to me of artistic integrity.
tanstaafl.
_________________________
"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
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#234342 - 04/10/2004 19:34
Re: Poll: Bill Burkett
[Re: tanstaafl.]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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True. My point is that I find it hard to believe that you can only ever have one subject, and, assuming that's true, if your music only has one subject, you're intentionally limiting yourself. However, my assumption may be incorrect.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
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#234343 - 05/10/2004 01:30
Re: Poll: Bill Burkett
[Re: JeffS]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 06/10/1999
Posts: 2591
Loc: Seattle, WA, U.S.A.
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I don't remember what I said the last time you brought this up
Ah, I found that thread -- remember now that it was a letter to United Airlines about their choice of in-flight entertainment that I was referring to.
Bitt pretty much said what I think this smug ditty is implying. Maybe it's overly sensitive of me, but I didn't get past hearing the first verse on the headset before I was grossly insulted:
Her parents never took the young girl to church
Never spoke of His name,
Never read her His word.
Two non-believers walking lost in this world,
First he points out what we/I am missing (His deity) and then pretty conclusively says we are all lost. How anyone (as did several people on that other BBS) can escape that conclusion is beyond me.
There are times when I wonder if I am as insulting to various believers, but I cut myself some slack as the noisy minority position (and I don't go door to door!)
An interesting essay on NPR this evening by "religion commentator" Gustav Niebuhr (ah, bio here). The essay hit a couple of interesting points. The first was a pointer to the not-very-widely-remembered Robert Ingersoll and then went on to suggest what a boon it might be for the 2 main parties to court the votes of various agnostics, atheists, secular humanists and such.
I was interested in the essay, but I am thinking his notion of atheists as undecided/swing voters is pretty poorly conceived. Maybe Bush can get some agnostic votes, but I am going to guess that the more comfortable somebody is with not holding a belief in some deity, the more nervous a candidate with strong ties to an evangelical constituency is going to make them.
I will say I often get ticked off at the various attempts to estimate the prevalence of the different non-theist positions. Niebuhr said something like "only 1 to 3 percent of Americans are willing to say that they are atheists". OK, and are these so-called "strong" atheists? What I'd like to know one day is what percentage of people in the US are functionally (weak) atheists in terms of their beliefs (yes, let's count all of the agnostics who can't bear to say "atheist"!)
On a Blue/Red state tangent, I can say that I went to *eastern* washington on Saturday to work a rally. Lots of Bush/Cheney signs. On the main drag in Cle Elum, I looked up to see the sign for a local garage. Can't remember their name, but right below the name and right above the shop's phone was the familiar Christian fish... right next to the "ASE certified mechanic" logo.
I needed a 9 volt battery for my checkpoint clock, so I stopped at a Radio Shack on the main drag that also serves as a video store. They had just gotten Fahrenheit 9/11 DVD, but hadn't put it in the computer so were having a hard time checking it out to a woman who showed up to claim it. I asked "How's that going?" She said, "Oh, we got a waiting list." So even in the red part of our blue state, somebody is renting DVDs by heretics.
Sheesh, I think I am all out of free association!
_________________________
Jim
'Tis the exceptional fellow who lies awake at night thinking of his successes.
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#234344 - 05/10/2004 07:51
Re: Poll: Bill Burkett
[Re: jimhogan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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First he points out what we/I am missing (His deity) and then pretty conclusively says we are all lost.
So is it that the song refers to you (and anyone else who doesn't hold to Christian beliefs) as "lost" that you find offensive?
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#234345 - 05/10/2004 08:10
Re: Poll: Bill Burkett
[Re: tanstaafl.]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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I don't want to "put words in his mouth" but I am guessing that Jeff's music is done more for his own (very) personal satisfaction than it is for the entertainment/education/?? of others.
Yes. While I do believe the music can be of benefit to other Christians as an encouragement, it is first and formost very personal expression. Having said that I must admit that my very first "Christian" songs were awful precisouly for the reasons Bitt is charing: I was putting words down that fit a certain mold of what I thought was expected, but they were very cold and distant- my attitude was that if I was going to write music, it had to be "for God". It wasn't until I had a conversation with a friend (who now is a full time Christian musician) who told me I should write about what I felt regardless of whether every word was about God or not (I remember him saying "if you are inspired to write a song about a flower, write about a flower- don't force it to relate back to Christ if that's not what moved you") that I started writing stuff that was an honest expression of who I am. It just so happens that just about all of it fits the mold of Christian music without my trying. Hearing my friends music today I'd say the same is true of him as well, though one of the other songwriters in his band has written about a dozen songs about the same girl he didn't end up marrying!
But I really didn't mean for this thread to become about myself and the music I've written. I'm really interested in what people find offensive or is a big turn off toward Christians and Christian music. There are always bound to be differences of beliefs that cannot be overcome whenver anyone talks about personal beliefs, but I'd rather those differences not occur because of the way I present them.
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#234346 - 05/10/2004 11:36
Re: Poll: Bill Burkett
[Re: JeffS]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 06/10/1999
Posts: 2591
Loc: Seattle, WA, U.S.A.
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So is it that the song refers to you (and anyone else who doesn't hold to Christian beliefs) as "lost" that you find offensive?
Yes, "walking lost in the world". That would be enough, but then he manages to imply, as Bitt points out, that we are dissolute, drug-abusing child abusers.... I have forgotten who the songwriter is. I looked him up at one point, didn't find much.
If ever there was recent anthem for skeptics/nonbelievers, I'd have to guess that it was XTC's "Dear God". It got a fair amount of airplay. IIRC, some believers made a point of how offended they were. Not sure if United included it in their in-flight entertainment....but I don't think so!
_________________________
Jim
'Tis the exceptional fellow who lies awake at night thinking of his successes.
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#234347 - 05/10/2004 14:47
Re: Poll: Bill Burkett
[Re: jimhogan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31597
Loc: Seattle, WA
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If ever there was recent anthem for skeptics/nonbelievers, I'd have to guess that it was XTC's "Dear God".
One of my faves (parody here), but it only covers the side of the discussion that Believers have a pre-scripted answer for. Basically, the song says, "there's so much suffering in the world, therefore God must not exist, or even if he does, he clearly doesn't care about us." I'm sure that statement is as offensive to most believers as the "child abuse song" is to atheists.
Being a Rush fan, of course, my personal favorite atheist anthems are their songs "Freewill" and "Roll the Bones", they cover a bit more ground, and aren't as angry or accusing as Dear God. I like the way Neil seems to capture the feeling that many theists don't believe atheists even have at all: that intense appreciation and respect for all life, in this life, here and now, because it's our only chance at it.
Each of us, a cell of awareness,
imperfect and incomplete.
Genetic blends, with uncertain ends,
on a fortune hunt that's far too fleet.
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#234348 - 05/10/2004 20:05
Re: Poll: Bill Burkett
[Re: jimhogan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Yes, "walking lost in the world".
Unfortunately, the word "lost" is pretty ingrained in Christian lingo as it's used in the bible often to mean those who are not followers of Christ. Today it's pretty much used interchangably with "non-believers" and "non-Christians". I understand how the term can sound condescending, but the context in the bible is one of God rejoicing when someone who is "lost" has returned to Him.
Like the word "saved", it seems that the word "lost" is a big turn off to non-Christians, and I'm not sure whether that's because of what the word represents or how it's been used. Probably the latter, which is why I think Christians have to be careful in how they phrase things, even if the word has biblical roots.
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That would be enough, but then he manages to imply, as Bitt points out, that we are dissolute, drug-abusing child abusers....
Once again, I'd have never gotten that from the song without hearing your perspective and I'm willing to bet it's not at all what the author intendend. Even at that, the author is still responsible for how the words can come accross. On the flip side of this, it seems to me that more often than not when a spiritual person (priests especially) appear in movies they are portrayed as amoral and power hungry. Though this can be irritating, I think the reason for this is not because filmmakers find all spirtual leaders to be amoral and power hungry, but because we love to watch movies about hypocracy. I think the portrayal is because of the story and not too much should be read into it. At least that's my take.
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If ever there was recent anthem for skeptics/nonbelievers, I'd have to guess that it was XTC's "Dear God". It got a fair amount of airplay. IIRC, some believers made a point of how offended they were.
Never have heard it, but I just looked up the lyrics. I'm not offended, but I probably won't be picking up the CD any time soon, which I'm sure you can understand. I have a feeling that true and blatent "anti-God" stuff is as hard to get on the radio as true and blatent Christian music, though it does happen ("I Can Only Imagine" being the most recent example I know of).
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#234349 - 05/10/2004 20:22
Re: Poll: Bill Burkett
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Being a Rush fan, of course, my personal favorite atheist anthems are their songs "Freewill" and "Roll the Bones", they cover a bit more ground, and aren't as angry or accusing as Dear God.
Neither of these song are offensive to me even though I profoundly disagree with their ideas, and I think "Freewill" has a lot to offer even from it's atheistic perspective. It talks about the responsibility of choosing belief, something believers and atheists should both take to heart.
What I love about Rush, though, is precisely what you've said. They aren't angry or accusing at all, nor do they paint believers with a broad brush. They don't come across like they have an axe to grind, but that they are exploring how they see the world and are inviting you to explore it with them. I have spent a lot of time contemplating the things they sing about; I just happen to have reached different conclusions.
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I like the way Neil seems to capture the feeling that many theists don't believe atheists even have at all: that intense appreciation and respect for all life, in this life, here and now, because it's our only chance at it.
He does, and even while I disagree with his premise, I certainly appreciate his ability to articulate this.
I know a lot of people write off Peart as pretentious, but I think if more people penned lyrics like he has, music could be a much more impacting medium. I also think he has the near-unique ability to not care much what his critics think of him, and that's probably what allows him to be so free with his lyrics and not feel like he has to shoot down his "enemies".
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#234350 - 05/10/2004 20:36
Re: Poll: Bill Burkett
[Re: JeffS]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31597
Loc: Seattle, WA
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I know a lot of people write off Peart as pretentious
I see where they're coming from when they say that, but for me, it's more like his lyrics are too technical, too analytical in most cases. They're not so much poetry as they are op-ed pieces that happen to rhyme. Credit where due, though, they are always carefully crafted, and brilliantly phrased. And every once in a while, he can make something that's both analytical and poetically beautiful at the same time.
It's funny, when Geddy came out with his solo album, I wondered what his lyrics would be like, and lo and behold, they sound just like Neil. I guess singing someone else's words for 20+ years would tend to influence you.
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#234351 - 06/10/2004 11:53
Re: Poll: Bill Burkett
[Re: JeffS]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Not to second guess the lyricist, but it would have been just as easy to write a lyric about a pair of drug-abusing parents who went to church each Sunday and when the girl got to her new family, she got to express that she was always glad about Jesus, despite the fact that the rest of her life was terrible, or maybe that she was scared about losing Jesus along with her bad parents, or something like that. At some point, there was a specific choice to make the bad parents not be churchgoers. Whether that was for the payoff or because of some prejudice against atheists I cannot judge, nor can anyone. But appearance means a lot. What if, instead of atheists, the bad parents had been identified as black? Yup, that poor girl with her crack-smoking black parents.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
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#234352 - 06/10/2004 13:36
Re: Poll: Bill Burkett
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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would have been just as easy to write a lyric about a pair of drug-abusing parents who went to church each Sunday and when the girl got to her new family, she got to express that she was always glad about Jesus, despite the fact that the rest of her life was terrible, or maybe that she was scared about losing Jesus along with her bad parents, or something like that.
Well yes, but then that defeats the whole "ahh, how sweet" effect that she'd known Jesus outside of church. In fact, I believe that's the point of the song: that Jesus exists in the real world and is not just confined to the church.Quote:
What if, instead of atheists, the bad parents had been identified as black?
Well that would not have really served the story by giving the girl a reason not to have been to church. It would have definitely been offensive, though.
I do get your point, however. The coupling of the athiest parents (though I'm sure "athiest" is a bit strong- perhaps non-churchgoers is all we can assume) with negative behavior makes it feel like the writer is painting with broad strokes. As I was trying to say earlier, sometimes that's the way I feel about how religious people are portrayed in movies. But I generally try to give the writer the benefit of the doubt.
In the end, though, I'm really playing more of a devil's advocate here. I really don't care for the song much, nor do I think it's a shining example of Christian music.
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#234353 - 06/10/2004 14:24
Re: Poll: Bill Burkett
[Re: JeffS]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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devil's advocate
Ha!
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#234354 - 06/10/2004 14:35
Re: Poll: Bill Burkett
[Re: tonyc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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I knew you'd like that.
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#234355 - 06/10/2004 15:01
Re: Poll: Bill Burkett
[Re: JeffS]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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I take it that your interpretation of the song is that the child had never been exposed to Jesus anywhere at all before seeing a crucifix (or whatever) in the church when her adoptive parents took her and that the crux of the story is that she magically knew who Jesus was without any stimulus, therefore "proving" that God exists.
Which is not what I took from it. It's hard to go through life in the US without being inundated with Jesus. I suppose as a child it may be fairly easy to not know what he represents, but you're still going to be familiar with the imagery. After all, he's almost always portrayed as a white guy with flowing hair and a beard, usually brown, wearing robes and sandals. Not exactly a common image otherwise. So the fact that she would recognize the image doesn't really mean anything to me. And that makes the song terribly bland from the "aww, cute" point of view and leaves any emotional impact with the hateful representation of the bad parents. The new parents are fairly blandly represented as giving hugs and going to church, where the song expends a lot of words (relative to the length of the lyrics) detailing how the bad parents were bad.
Actually, rereading the lyrics to check my facts, I see that I somehow missed that last stanza. So, to some extent, at least, nevermind. Cute story, definitely.
Actually, it's interesting to note that the song never states that the new parents attend church, either. It implies it, since the girl goes, but it never says that the new parents went or that they specifically sent her. (Picking nits, I know.)
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
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#234356 - 06/10/2004 15:13
Re: Poll: Bill Burkett
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31597
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Which is not what I took from it.
It is what I took from it, though. Just to provide a contrary opinion.
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#234357 - 06/10/2004 15:28
Re: Poll: Bill Burkett
[Re: tonyc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/01/2002
Posts: 3937
Loc: Providence, RI
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Quote:
Quote:
devil's advocate
Ha!
I hear that was a great pinball game....
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#234358 - 06/10/2004 16:14
Re: Poll: Bill Burkett
[Re: Daria]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/01/2002
Posts: 3937
Loc: Providence, RI
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But here's where I'll be a prick.... Cheney never met Edwards, eh? Is lying a Christian value? My education must have left it out; Given that I didn't play hooky, I wonder if we got that lesson while I was in the bathroom or something.
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#234359 - 06/10/2004 16:35
Re: Poll: Bill Burkett
[Re: Daria]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31597
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Quote:
Cheney never met Edwards, eh? Is lying a Christian value?
No, but simply forgetting whether you've met a particular senator, when you meet so many of them and they start to all look the same to you, isn't un-Christian.
As much as I'd like to nail Cheney on that one, I'm sure it was just an honest mistake.
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#234360 - 06/10/2004 16:46
Re: Poll: Bill Burkett
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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I'm not sure about that. He knew he was going to say that. He could have taken ten minutes to verify that he'd never met him, or had his speech writer or some other staffer do it, just like he got that same staffer to look up the fact that hos hometown newspaper refers to him as "Mr. Gone" (or whatever it was). He deliberately made that up for rhetoric. And the fact of the matter is that no matter how few people actually watch the debates, even fewer follow up on them, so the point will stick. It's a good sound bite on how Edwards is (admittedly) at the Senate meetings less often than he should be.
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Bitt Faulk
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#234361 - 06/10/2004 16:49
Re: Poll: Bill Burkett
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/01/2002
Posts: 3937
Loc: Providence, RI
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Quote:
Quote:
Cheney never met Edwards, eh? Is lying a Christian value?
No, but simply forgetting whether you've met a particular senator, when you meet so many of them and they start to all look the same to you, isn't un-Christian.
How could you forget this fresh-faced guy? Seriously, he looks like someone whose soul should have been crushed already, and yet...
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#234362 - 06/10/2004 16:52
Re: Poll: Bill Burkett
[Re: Daria]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31597
Loc: Seattle, WA
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#234363 - 06/10/2004 17:00
Re: Poll: Bill Burkett
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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As much as I'd like to nail Cheney on that one, I'm sure it was just an honest mistake.
No, not an honest mistake, just being a politician. He damned well remembered his meeting(s) with Edwards (there are only 100 senators, after all) and he's not senile. It was just much more effective to say he never met him in his speech, since most who heard his words aren't going to read the follow-up stories about how they really did meet.
That being said, I'm not sure I could make a call between which ticket is distorting the truth more than the other... Bush/Cheney didn't invent distorting the truth, but this is a clear example of just that.
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#234364 - 06/10/2004 17:03
Re: Poll: Bill Burkett
[Re: tonyc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/01/2002
Posts: 3937
Loc: Providence, RI
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Quote:
That being said, I'm not sure I could make a call between which ticket is distorting the truth more than the other... Bush/Cheney didn't invent distorting the truth, but this is a clear example of just that.
the Bush camp's claims seem to get more notice, so it appears they are, but that's probably not actually true.
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