#235568 - 30/09/2004 03:19
Re: POLLS: Symbolism
[Re: Daria]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 06/10/1999
Posts: 2591
Loc: Seattle, WA, U.S.A.
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Well, basically my conclusion was that making a statement was the antithesis of communicating. And so I didn't.
Derrick,
If it seems like I am teasing, making fun, or making light, don't take it that way. I really appreciate your dilemma. As much as I enjoy a venue (ummm, maybe like this BBS?) where you can let it all hang out, I think that the "statement versus communicate" decision process is one that not enough people and groups think about.
I often despair of communication, but don't we have to hope?
_________________________
Jim
'Tis the exceptional fellow who lies awake at night thinking of his successes.
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#235569 - 30/09/2004 03:32
Re: POLLS: Symbolism
[Re: jimhogan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/01/2002
Posts: 3937
Loc: Providence, RI
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Well, basically my conclusion was that making a statement was the antithesis of communicating. And so I didn't.
Derrick,
If it seems like I am teasing, making fun, or making light, don't take it that way.
I have a thick skin. You'll need to try harder.
Quote:
I really appreciate your dilemma. As much as I enjoy a venue (ummm, maybe like this BBS?) where you can let it all hang out, I think that the "statement versus communicate" decision process is one that not enough people and groups think about.
I often despair of communication, but don't we have to hope?
No, you're not realistic enough.
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#235570 - 30/09/2004 04:15
Re: POLLS: Symbolism
[Re: jimhogan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12345
Loc: Sterling, VA
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Oh, and if anyone has insider info on the origin of "Proud to be an American"
You mean the thoroughly obnoxious country song? I can't stand that song.
_________________________
Matt
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#235571 - 30/09/2004 06:34
Re: POLLS: Symbolism
[Re: dmallory]
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enthusiast
Registered: 06/03/2003
Posts: 269
Loc: Wellingborough, UK
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Hrm. But I was born 'here'. Why should I have to leave, if I don't like it? What gives 'them' more claim to making rules?
Because you can't change the concept of a nation. Why should anyone continue to live in, say, America when they are vocally anti-American? Put-up or shut up.
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Q. Do you believe there is ever a scenario when breaking the law can be justified?
Absolutely. As far as justification, the legallity of an act never even enters the picture. And you?
[/devils-advocate]
I agree. It gets a whole lot more tricky when the question is changed slightly, though:
[devlis-advocate]
Do you believe there is ever a scenario when protesters breaking the law can be justified?
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#235572 - 30/09/2004 07:40
Re: POLLS: Symbolism
[Re: mdavey]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4181
Loc: Cambridge, England
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As a citizen, protest is valid when the target is the govenment, parliament or any other group - but the nation?
However lofty the ideals of a nation, the acts of that nation are the acts of its government -- and it is judged by others, and so in a sense defined, by those acts. Does anyone actually think that flag-burners are protesting against liberty, equality, and justice? Their very point is surely that the American flag ceased being synonymous with those ideals when it was raised over Guantanamo Bay and Abu Ghraib.
Peter
(And because before I've been accused of anti-American bias because of my opposition to certain currrent US policies, I'll add that of course the Union Flag has from time to time been raised over atrocities just as severe. But I don't have a problem with criticising my nation when it does something crap, and if Northern Irish citizens were burning Union Flags in Belfast in the 1980s -- which I don't know whether they were, it's not such a popular form of protest over here -- then I'd have been all in favour.)
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#235573 - 30/09/2004 08:08
Re: POLLS: Symbolism
[Re: mdavey]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 18/01/2000
Posts: 5683
Loc: London, UK
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Why should anyone continue to live in, say, America when they are vocally anti-American?
Who defines what "anti-American" means?
_________________________
-- roger
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#235574 - 30/09/2004 08:43
Re: POLLS: Symbolism
[Re: Roger]
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enthusiast
Registered: 06/03/2003
Posts: 269
Loc: Wellingborough, UK
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Who defines what "anti-American" means?
WordNet on Princeton defines it as "opposed to the United States and its policies". I'd generally go with this definition but I think there are some subtleties - it is possible to simply be opposed to the US, fulstop. Alternatively, one might choose to oppose the way the US behaves - behaviour can be decoupled from policy. So, three definitions.
This sub-thread started with a discussion about flag burning by protestors - often perceived as an anti-nation (eg. anti-American) act or at least a protest against the nation.
Peter makes some good point in his post.
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#235575 - 30/09/2004 09:11
Re: POLLS: Symbolism
[Re: peter]
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enthusiast
Registered: 21/08/1999
Posts: 381
Loc: Northern Ireland
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if Northern Irish citizens were burning Union Flags in Belfast in the 1980s
I certainly wouldn't have agreed with anyone burning the Union Flag, but it would have been infinitely preferable to blowing things up and murdering police officers, soldiers & other Northern Irish citizens, which was a depressingly more typical form of 'protest' here in the '80s.
_________________________
Geoff
---- -------
Mk1 Blue - was 4GB, now 16GB
Mk2 Red - was 12GB, now 60GB
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#235576 - 30/09/2004 09:37
Re: POLLS: Symbolism
[Re: mdavey]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 18/01/2000
Posts: 5683
Loc: London, UK
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...flag burning by protestors - often perceived as an anti-nation (eg. anti-American) act or at least a protest against the nation.
Which is exactly my point.
It is perceived as an anti-American act by some people. Why should these people unilaterally decide that it's an anti-American act, and therefore that the perpetrators should be deported from the country?
_________________________
-- roger
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#235578 - 30/09/2004 10:26
Re: POLLS: Symbolism
[Re: Roger]
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enthusiast
Registered: 06/03/2003
Posts: 269
Loc: Wellingborough, UK
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How else can it be interpreted? It doesn't appear that anyone here thinks the S-n-S flag burners are protesting about democracy. They aren't burning the Bald Eagle (is that the correct name for the US Govenment flag?) so one would assume they aren't protesting about the president or the government as such.
It seems that they are protesting about the US, how it behaves and/or its policies.
You say "some people". What if it is the majority? From earlier posts, I understand that the US goverment can't currently deport for flag-burning. However, I guess a new law could be introduced if there was a majority consensus.
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#235579 - 30/09/2004 11:49
Re: POLLS: Symbolism
[Re: mdavey]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 18/01/2000
Posts: 5683
Loc: London, UK
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How else can it be interpreted?
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It seems that they are protesting about the US, how it behaves and/or its policies.
That's how else it can be interpreted. If someone is protesting about the US's policies by burning the flag, then how are they being un-American? They're exercising their democratic right to protest -- it's just that they're doing it by burning the flag.
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It doesn't appear that anyone here thinks the S-n-S flag burners are protesting about democracy.
Can you clarify that? I imagine that very few people protest about democracy. Maybe they want to live in a socialist state, or something. The fact that you live in a democracy is the very thing that allows them to protest. By banning protests -- no matter which form that they take -- you're slowly eroding the principals of that democracy.
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You say "some people". What if it is the majority?
Then the majority are wrong. Just because it's the popular view doesn't mean that it's right or just.
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From earlier posts, I understand that the US goverment can't currently deport for flag-burning. However, I guess a new law could be introduced if there was a majority consensus.
And it would be an unjust law.
IMO, some US citizens invest altogether too much (ego?, symbolism?, whatever?) in their flag. It smacks of jingoism to me. It's just a piece of cloth, people.
_________________________
-- roger
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#235580 - 30/09/2004 12:32
Re: POLLS: Symbolism
[Re: Roger]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/01/2002
Posts: 3937
Loc: Providence, RI
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Can you clarify that? I imagine that very few people protest about democracy. Maybe they want to live in a socialist state, or something. The fact that you live in a democracy is the very thing that allows them to protest.
I think you're using a definition of socialism other than the economic one. I'd say socialism is a choice you make instead of capitalism, not instead of democracy.
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#235581 - 30/09/2004 12:32
Re: POLLS: Symbolism
[Re: mdavey]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31604
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Because you can't change the concept of a nation.
Ah, but you can. When the nation is built on the concept of democracy and freedom, and the very ability to change your own government.
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Why should anyone continue to live in, say, America when they are vocally anti-American? Put-up or shut up.
Because America is specifically the place where you are supposed to be able to call for change if you think it's needed. If you can't protest, it's not America any more.
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#235582 - 30/09/2004 23:00
Re: POLLS: Symbolism
[Re: mdavey]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5549
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
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Because you can't change the concept of a nation. Why should anyone continue to live in, say, America when they are vocally anti-American?
Surely you jest!
Of course you can change the concept of a nation, most especially by protesting the state that the nation is in.
Disagreeing with the current lunacies being perpetrated by my government does not make me anti-American. In fact, if anything it makes me far more pro-American than the jingoistic right-wingers and their "Kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out" attitude. The repercussions we will face from that attitude will haunt us for generations to come.
The America I live in today is *not* the America it was five years ago, and if by protesting current governmental policies I can in some degree try to steer it back onto a more reasonable track, I will do so. If that includes setting fire to a piece of tri-colored cloth in order to get people to pay attention to what I have to say -- so be it!
Being pro-American (IMnsHO) means not sitting on one's ass and meekly accepting as gospel whatever decrees are handed down by the government, and refusing to accept those decrees certainly does not make one anti-American.
tanstaafl.
_________________________
"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
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#235583 - 30/09/2004 23:41
Re: POLLS: Symbolism
[Re: tanstaafl.]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 06/10/1999
Posts: 2591
Loc: Seattle, WA, U.S.A.
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Surely you jest!
What Doug and Tony said.
Doug, I particularly enjoy reading when you get all....American! ..like that. Hear! Hear!
_________________________
Jim
'Tis the exceptional fellow who lies awake at night thinking of his successes.
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#235584 - 30/09/2004 23:51
Re: POLLS: Symbolism
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 06/10/1999
Posts: 2591
Loc: Seattle, WA, U.S.A.
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think people have the right to be... well... "whatever". I'd just like to reserve the right to bitch about it without being accused of refusing their right to speech
Brad, apropos this thread's turn into flag-burning territory, I can say that I have never burned a flag and for the longest time the thought never occurred to me. More recently, though, I have thought of burning one in public if only to reassure myself that some of what I think this Consitution is... is still intact. If I go nuts and do it sometime, I *completely* endorse your right to call me a screwed-up, flag-burning <supply your choice epithet here>.
Yeah, and so long as you don't shoot me or somehow cause me to be thrown into jail, I think we are good to go.
_________________________
Jim
'Tis the exceptional fellow who lies awake at night thinking of his successes.
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#235585 - 01/10/2004 06:06
Re: POLLS: Symbolism
[Re: Roger]
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enthusiast
Registered: 06/03/2003
Posts: 269
Loc: Wellingborough, UK
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You say "some people". What if it is the majority?
Then the majority are wrong. Just because it's the popular view doesn't mean that it's right or just.
Okay, but democracy and society are about the majority view. Your rationale seems to be moving towards a belief system now. You believe your viewpoint is right based on your own values but acknowledge that the majority don't hold the same values to be true.
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And it would be an unjust law.
This also is a value judgement, isn't it? How does one prove that a law is unjust? Does such a proof automatically lead to the law being repealed? If not, why not?
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IMO, some US citizens invest altogether too much (ego?, symbolism?, whatever?) in their flag. It smacks of jingoism to me. It's just a piece of cloth, people.
Aren't they just showing their patriotism?
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#235586 - 01/10/2004 11:28
Re: POLLS: Symbolism
[Re: mdavey]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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The thing is that this country was founded on certain priciples, and they all mostly boil down to the idea that you're free to do what you want as long as it doesn't impede someone else's ability to do what they want. There's obviously a lot of grey area there, as you occasionally have mutually exclusive wants. But that's why we have a legal system. Burning a flag doesn't impede anyone else's ability to do anything. Period. Lack of offense is not protected under the Constitution, and, as such, burning a flag shouldn't be taken any differently than calling someone an idiot. Quote:
Aren't they just showing their patriotism?
Their misguided patriotism, IMO, but yeah. On the other hand, no one's saying that they can't continue to complain about it. In fact, I'm sure that the people who are doing the flag burning would be miffed if everyone just accepted it. It's specifically the strength of that imagery and people's belief in it that makes it a powerful statement.
So, those who want to ban flag burning want to take away people's ability to do something just so that they won't be offended, and those who want to burn flags have no interest (at least as far as the flag burning itself is concerned) in preventing anyone from doing anything. Which seems more wrong to you?
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
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#235587 - 01/10/2004 13:46
Re: POLLS: Symbolism
[Re: mdavey]
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addict
Registered: 24/07/2003
Posts: 500
Loc: Colorado, N.A.
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Okay, but democracy and society are about the majority view.
Some might say almost the opposite: our society's implementation of democracy, a representative republic in which people do NOT vote directly on the laws and issues of the day, is more about protecting the minority from the tyranny of the majority.
As for flag-burning, this principle couldn't be any simpler: the flag symbolizes the right to burn the flag. This fact makes the act of doing so both fully protected and completely counter-productive,.
_________________________
-- DLF
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