#237510 - 13/10/2004 13:39
Lack of real-life education
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12341
Loc: Sterling, VA
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After graduating from college, and despite having gone to a liberal arts school, I still have some things I desperately need to learn. The most important of these, I feel, is personal finance.
How can they not teach this at universities? It boggles my mind that a course in personal finances is not as ubiquitous as, say, a high school home-ec or shop class. No, instead, our higher education seems entirely focused on giving us knowledge in our one field of education, and then a bunch of required courses that will never be used again (at least this is the way it works at my liberal arts school).
So there we are. 1500 people graduating from my college every year, and the vast majority of them don't know how to do their taxes. Credit cards, apartment/condo/house payments, personal banking, bill paying, etc, most of it is a mystery to these young adults who just graduated from one of the best schools in the country. This is, to me, the biggest failure of my country's educational system.
So, that said, where do I turn to in order to learn all this stuff? Basically, I have a debit card, and the only bills I pay are for my cell phone, which is done automatically. This summer I will finally be buying a new place to live, and my father will help me with that, but hey, he won't be around forever. I need to learn how this stuff works.
Big thanks for any pointers you guys have.
_________________________
Matt
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#237511 - 13/10/2004 14:22
Re: Lack of real-life education
[Re: Dignan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/10/2000
Posts: 4931
Loc: New Jersey, USA
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For whatever reason, high school and the clown college I went to actually did teach about personal finance some. I don't think it was part of the curriculum, but points were made. My high school business teacher was always talking about 401k. After I left my parent's house, however, I have been mostly on my own. I had to set up bank accounts, get credit cards, get a mortgage, and buy cars by myself. These are things I didn't know anything about and as a result of my learing, I have switched banks 4 times until I found one that suited me well. Well, anyway, I don't know where you learn stuff like that. I think you just have to pick it up by seeing how your parents and others do things.
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-Rob Riccardelli
80GB 16MB MK2 090000736
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#237512 - 13/10/2004 14:57
Re: Lack of real-life education
[Re: robricc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 19/01/2002
Posts: 3584
Loc: Columbus, OH
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If you don't mind getting it from a Christian perspective, Larry Burkett's "Financial Guide for Young Couples" is excellent (even if you aren't married or dating).
If you ever plan to be financially independent, it's important to live on a budget (unless you are like some of the folks around here that seem to make more than they can spend.) I resisted it for the first few years, but have found that the longer I do it that there is great freedom in living in the boundaries you've set for yourself.
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~ John
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#237513 - 13/10/2004 15:04
Re: Lack of real-life education
[Re: Dignan]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 08/02/2002
Posts: 3411
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I totally agree. Another thing missing from education goes hand in hand - law. Pretty much everything we do is governed by some law or other, and ignorance is no defence against the law, yet high schools and colleges utterly fail to provide a broad-based overview of the legal system to every student. Both here and in the UK, you have to choose to study something that should be a core component of education.
_________________________
Mk2a 60GB Blue. Serial 030102962
sig.mp3: File Format not Valid.
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#237514 - 13/10/2004 17:01
Re: Lack of real-life education
[Re: genixia]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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But at least we get to learn how to run around a track for an hour and lift heavy things.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
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#237515 - 13/10/2004 17:50
Re: Lack of real-life education
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12341
Loc: Sterling, VA
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Quote:
But at least we get to learn how to run around a track for an hour and lift heavy things.
I'm more upset about my lack of choice in what additional classes I was allowed to take. Fine, make me get some excersize. At least it's something different. The fact that I had to take an entry-level Bio course at college makes me more irritated than gym class. I TOOK BIO IN HIGH SCHOOL. If, by the time I've gotten to college, I think my time would be better spent learning about interest rates and mortages and my taxes than re-learning stuff I already studied, I think that should be my choice. But no, there's a set of required courses that I must take.
I want the other extreme. I want a single required class in this kind of stuff that must be taken by all students in order to graduate. That's one semester that's spent learning essential tools for living in today's society. The result would be a graduating class that's actually prepared for being thrown into the real world.
Sorry, I keep getting on rants. Thanks for the suggestions so far. Keep 'em coming!
_________________________
Matt
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#237516 - 13/10/2004 18:43
Re: Lack of real-life education
[Re: Dignan]
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old hand
Registered: 15/02/2002
Posts: 1049
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Well, I think there are several levels to the personal finance subject. I also think that most people dive in to the deepest levels (technical investment topics) without getting the basic philosopy stuff down first.
In my opinion, the best "life philosophy" about personal finances I've ever heard is by Jim Rohn. I like his tapes, though I realize that others don't care for his style. His personal financial strategy is really simple:
1. Live on 70% of your income. That means you should pay all of your bills and expenses out of 70% of your income. This is easy to do immediately after school, since most people enjoy a big bump in pay right after graduation. Trust me, it will be *MUCH* more difficult to get down to 70% even as little as one year later.
2. Of the remaining 30%, allocate it as follows:
The first third goes to savings. After you have accumulated 6-9 (or even 12) months worth of living expenses (the other 70%), then you can go and read up on how best to invest the rest of it. First, get yourself a big healthy chunk of CASH (money market fund is great) for a rainy day (like losing your job, or whatever). Since you are living off of 70% of your income, it will take you 7 months to save up a single month's worth of expenses (not including the return on the savings). That's OK. Saving is a long-term strategy.
The second 10%, according to Rohn, should be viewed as *capital*. That means that it is to be saved and used to participate in the capitalist system as the capital of an enterprise. It doesn't matter what the enterprise is. The point is that this portion of the money should be viewed as energy to create more money. Elsewhere I have heard it said that poor people see money as means to immediate gratification, middle-class people see money as means to delayed gratification (saving for things), where the wealthy see money as a means to make money -- that means as *capital*. A relatively small amount of capital can get you going on all kinds of things, from your own business to investment real estate. Rohn's point is that the money should be set aside specifically to be used as capital.
The final 10% should be used to give back to the community. This is pretty controversial with a lot of people, but I think it makes a ton of sense. Now, maybe 10% isn't the right number, but the idea of *investing* back into the community in some way is a fine idea, in my opinion. Rohn says this is also something that is easiest to start early, and I agree. We're not necessarily talking about giving to a church, though many people do that. It doesn't matter. The point is that one begins to see their life as part of a greater community and that their success matters more than their own self interest. This is a whole other topic...
If you can take the 30% of your *gross* out of your *net*, then that's even better. Any kind of tax-deferred funds like 401k's or IRAs are such a great deal that I believe everyone should participate up to the annual maximum amount, if possible, but that doesn't take the place of the 3 catagories, above. On the other hand, if you've already got the first 10% totally squared away, I suppose a 401k or some other tax-deferred mechanism is a great way to keep going on the first 10% catagory.
I agree 100% that it is critical to have some CASH saved away. I think it is more important than eliminating debt or starting a 401k. Those things are really close seconds, IMHO.
I think a person could do a lot worse than checking out Jim Rohn, especially if they are just "starting out".
FWIW,
Jim
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#237517 - 14/10/2004 01:34
Re: Lack of real-life education
[Re: Dignan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5549
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
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Big thanks for any pointers you guys have.
I don't know if any of this will be useful or even do-able... but a few guidelines I live by are:
1) Every dime I spend is done through my credit card. This way I have a monthly summary showing exactly where my money went. $40 cash in my wallet will last me literally years purchasing the very rare item that I can't put on my card.
2) I only have one credit card, and the balance is paid in full every month. I have never paid interest on a credit card in my life, because...
3) I never, ever buy anything with my credit card that I could not have written a check or paid cash for instead. The credit card is NOT a means to borrow money I don't have; it is an accounting convenience.
4) This is the biggie. If I had access to a time machine and could somehow transport myself back 40 years, I would bring a gun and hold it to my 20-year-old self's head and absolutely make me start a 401k program. (Hmmm... was there a 401k back then?) Prioritize that 401k contribution ahead of food, drink, cars, and sex. Figure out the maximum I could possibly afford to put into it -- then put in twice that amount. I would be a multi-millionaire today had I done that.
I guess my philosophy comes down to six words:
Don't spend money you don't have.
tanstaafl.
_________________________
"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
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#237518 - 14/10/2004 02:19
Re: Lack of real-life education
[Re: TigerJimmy]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/01/2002
Posts: 3937
Loc: Providence, RI
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I have to agree. Of course I am exactly the opposite of fiscally responsible, so it's probably hypocritical of me to do so.
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#237519 - 14/10/2004 02:23
Re: Lack of real-life education
[Re: Daria]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 23/09/2000
Posts: 3608
Loc: Minnetonka, MN
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Admitting your problem is the first step to recovery 
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Matt
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#237520 - 14/10/2004 03:21
Re: Lack of real-life education
[Re: msaeger]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/01/2002
Posts: 3937
Loc: Providence, RI
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Step 2 holds no interest for me.
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#237521 - 14/10/2004 03:58
Re: Lack of real-life education
[Re: Daria]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
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Quote:
Step 2 holds no interest for me.
You know step 2? All I ever figured out about that step was "2. ?????". Of course, Slashdot isn't the most useful place to learn things. 
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#237522 - 14/10/2004 04:21
Re: Lack of real-life education
[Re: wfaulk]
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addict
Registered: 25/06/2002
Posts: 456
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Quote:
But at least we get to learn how to run around a track for an hour and lift heavy things.
Yeah. Setting habits for lifetime fitness ain't all bad.
You know it wouldn't hurt if they also spent a little time teaching "how to make nutritious/healthy meals for one -- on a budget." Or if they explained the up- and down-side tradeoffs of various foods. (I.e., when I got out of high school, I didn't realize that peanuts were high in fat, so I considered eating a whole jar of Planter's to be a healthy high-protein meal. In retrospect: Man, I was an idiot. Of course, with Atkins institutionalizing large-scale idiocy, perhaps I was merely ahead of my time.)
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#237523 - 14/10/2004 04:31
Re: Lack of real-life education
[Re: Dignan]
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addict
Registered: 25/06/2002
Posts: 456
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DiGNAN17: I still have some things I desperately need to learn. The most important of these, I feel, is personal finance.
Quote:
robricc: Well, anyway, I don't know where you learn stuff like that. I think you just have to pick it up by seeing how your parents and others do things.
I think you guys have an important point here.
I do think most people just learn this stuff initially from watching their parents. And I do think some of society's ills would be improved if people could either (a) break free of the poverty cycle of their parents, or (b) improve upon their parents' mediocre financial skills.
However....
I don't know how much people would do with this info if they had it rammed down their throats before they could see the relevance of it.
I'm a good case in point. And I don't think I'm alone. I had at least two good chances to pick up some of this stuff and instead I let it slide in one ear and out the other both times.
- We had mandatory Free Enterprise and Economics classes in high school. I think they talked about Monetary Supply (M1, etc.), stocks, and for all I know it might have hit on mortgages, CDs, retirement planning, and budgeting as well. But I remembered that stuff about long enough for the test and then forgot it all instantaneously. It sure didn't seem relevant to me as a high school student. Besides, I was convinced I was going to somehow invent the world's coolest gadget *real* *soon* *now*, have the world beat a path to my door, become immediately wealthy, and never have to sweat all the small stuff....
We even had a class where we had to read the Wall Street Journal every day (in class) for a week. It made no impression on me.
- Boy Scouts. Personal Management Merit Badge. Man, if I wasn't ready for this in high school, I sure wasn't ready for it back in Boy Scout days. But at least I did learn how to make a budget. So I guess it wasn't a total waste. But you know, an eleven-year-old's budget just isn't that exciting! Paper route money in, movie money out, "thank you, goodnight."
An interesting point for you to consider is that a lot of the advice you may get, even from people who really should know, isn't that great.
When I finished school and moved to a new town, I went straight to the CFO of the small company I had my new job with. I asked him "what's the best bank here for me to use for setting up checking and savings accounts."
I figured he would know, seeing that he managed money for a living.
I opened an account where he recommended and soon found out that they (a) had the most restrictive balance requirements and service charges, (b) paid the worst interest, and (c) wouldn't offer me a car loan. I.e., they were the worst bank in town for me, though they might have been a better deal for him.
I know someone who opened his first checking account when he arrived at college. (No, I'm not talking about myself here.) He had his first few checks mailed back to him. You see, no one had ever explained to him that you needed to *sign* them. And he was (and still is) an extremely intelligent person, who is now very successful.
But it just bolsters your point that some basic training is frequently missing from our schooling.
Another time, I received a check (from a college graduate) made out for "one hundred and thirty-seven dollars and 12/100". My bank wouldn't take it until she wrote me another one for "one hundred thirty-seven dollars and 12/100". She was stunned, and absolutely couldn't believe it when I told her that although the bank was being unusually pedantic, "everyone knows that on American checks the word 'and' should only appear between the dollars and the cents." She had never heard such a thing and thought I was just making stuff up. I almost had to bring her in to the bank to prove it to her. I'm sure she wrote checks like that all the time and this was the first time it had bitten her.
Anyway, I'm rambling again.
So here's my thoughts, they're probably worth what you paid for them.
Also, about half of this is very US-centric (what's new).
Here's my list of What I Wish Someone Had Told Me (TM)
- I think The Motley Fool has some beginner investment advice.
- Do a 401K if you can, and open an IRA otherwise. Like the man says, starting at 25 is exponentially better than 35. And 35 is better then 45. (Alright, alright, I guess technically it's only geometrically better, not exponentially. Whatever.)
- If your company has an ESPP, jump in with both feet. Max it out even if you have to borrow money from a friend the first six months. (After that your earnings from the first period will prevent you from needing to borrow the next time.)
These are an absolute no-lose deal if your company lets you do "same day sales." If they don't (a rare and unusual case), then look into it before investing, as it is possible (though unlikely) to lose money if the stock drops 15% before your sell window.
- Credit cards. You know the story. If you always pay in full, you can never get into one of those 24.99% holes that can take years to dig out of. (Yeah, I know, most people here will disagree with me on that suggestion.)
Also, you need at least two, in case one of them decides to randomly lock you out when you're on vacation. This happens a lot nowadays, as automated anti-fraud flags get flipped for the strangest and most bizarre reasons. Should you have a lot more than two? Well, I guess that depends on how much of an impulsive spender you are.
Also, be aware that having a lot of excess available credit can hurt your credit score when you're applying for a mortgage.
Additional point: avoid credit cards (such as Sears) which only report negative credit information. This means these cards can never increase your credit rating, only decrease it.
- House payments. DO NOT miss or be late on the first payment. You might lose the house right there. If things get tough down the road, they may cut you a little slack -- after you have established a prompt, regular payment record with them.
- Taxes. When you're young and don't have a house, it's usually a simple 15-minute one-page deal. Minimal stress.
After the house, you have to go to the big boy's form, but it's still usually no big deal.
On the other hand, if your finances start getting really complicated, accountants are totally worth it.
But in the meantime, you can go a long long way with just Quicken and TurboTax and save yourself a lot of money. But if you're too disorganized to Quicken, accountants may still useful.
Also, what does it hurt to go to H&R Block when they offer one of those occasional deals where they say "we'll look at your tax form for free and show you how much we could save you."
- Stock Options. If you're a techie, and are going to join the next Google, there are a few things to watch out for. And there are different things to watch out for if you're getting options from a big established public company versus a tiny startup.
Keywords to look up: AMT and "83(b) election"
Important fact to remember. In the recent bubble-bursting, there were lots of people who ended up owing millions of dollars in taxes on stocks which were worth only a few hundred dollars, resulting in bankruptcy. Their reward for working 90-hour weeks for years on end was to lose their ass, their house, and often their marriage.
Make sure this doesn't happen to you.
They could have avoided this by selling by the end of the year or buying protective puts or collars. But either (a) no one told them, or (b) they were idiots.
- Monthly or yearly fees on bank accounts, credit cards, etc. Never, ever, ever, get an account which has these unless you are absolutely certain you are getting something which more than makes up for it. After a year, check and see if you are really using those frequent flyer miles or "percentage back" money to the tune of more than your service charge. A surprising number of people don't. A half-dozen $15/mo. charges add up to $1000+/year.
- Add up how much you spend on fast food in a month. Wow! that much?
P.S. Smoking is expensive, too. But you already knew that.
- Insurance payments like you wouldn't believe. Car insurance, house insurance, life insurance, renter's insurance (protects your stuff if you don't own a house), perhaps eventually liability insurance (people are sue-happy)
- Oh yeah, like TigerJimmy said, save up at least 3 months worth of expenses, preferably more. It's almost certain that you will be laid off or fired at some point in your life. Might as well be prepared early.
- Set aside a small amount of time every week to do this stuff, that way it never builds up and becomes overwhelming. I.e., pay all bills every Tuesday night, or spend 15 minutes researching investments every Sunday afternoon, etc.
And this ties into genixia's legal comment as much as it does to the financial stuff, but don't put off making a will for too long.
Obviously, you need one if you have children (to say who raises the child in lieu of you and your spouse), and you probably don't need one if you're 22 and single. But if you have anything that you don't feel comfortable having the state randomly assign or just keep for themselves, then make your intentions known in a legal document.
Also, if you have opinions on if and when to pull the plug if you are in a coma, you need to document this. Otherwise, the state decides. Even your spouse may not get a say.
Alright, I'll shut up now.
OK, everyone, tell me where I'm wrong, and what I left out.
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#237524 - 14/10/2004 04:39
Re: Lack of real-life education
[Re: Dignan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
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You are hardly alone. I consider myself fortunate to have grown up in a family where my parents taught me this stuff from an early age. As soon as I was old enough to get an allowance, the answer to "Mom, can I have this?" was "Save your money." On account of having to pay tithing (10% of increase, i.e. income less living expenses) at church, stewardship was pretty important. I was taught to save receipts, balance a checkbook, budget for expenditures, etc.
And sadly, I ignore most of that now. However, the big things I learned are:
1) Don't spend money you don't have. If you can't pay immediately with cash, don't buy it on credit.
2) Save money for the rough times (not to mention retirement). The more the better. The earlier the better.
3) Don't ignore quality of life, but at the same time, there's no need to be a fiscal hedonist.
Honestly, that's about the gist of it -- the devil is in the details, and boy, are there a heck of a lot of details.
One of the better "intro to personal finance" books I've read (back in high school) is The Wealthy Barber. It was incredibly easy to read and understand, and gave simple advice.
I'd follow that up with the Motley Fool books. Again, these are all simple, easy to read books. They go a bit further than Wealthy Barber, shies away from all the financial mumbo-jumbo that turns off most people from looking at finances when possible, and introduces it gently when necessary. In addition to their books, they also have a huge website, with everything from free financial articles, stock quotes and charts, to user forums (sadly non-free). It's probably the most popular financial website on the Internet, and is usually the first place I look when I have questions about things like stocks, life insurance, etc.
If you want to move beyond the Motley Fool, a great deal of what they base their material on is the philosophy from The Intelligent Investor. This is the advice that Warren Buffett followed in his investing. I have yet to read this (it's on my nightstand), but as the title suggests, it leaves the personal finance stuff to other people, and deals soley with how to invest that nest-egg wisely.
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#237525 - 14/10/2004 05:25
Re: Lack of real-life education
[Re: music]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
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Quote:
4. Credit cards. You know the story. If you always pay in full, you can never get into one of those 24.99% holes that can take years to dig out of. (Yeah, I know, most people here will disagree with me on that suggestion.)
Also, you need at least two, in case one of them decides to randomly lock you out when you're on vacation.
I say stick with one card, if you can. I've never had an issue with vacations in the US (read, in the country were the card is issued) raise a red-flag, possibly because I also buy my airline tickets with the credit card, so they know I'm travelling somewhere already. When I go abroad (out of North America), I call up my credit card company, and tell them what countries I'm visiting, and give them the dates of travel. Again, though I've not done much travelling outside N.A., I've not had a problem.
Oh, and yeah, if you can avoid the 24.99% credit cards, good on you, but if you religiously pay the full amount due every month, 24.99% of a $0 balance is the same as 5% of the same balance.
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Should you have a lot more than two? Well, I guess that depends on how much of an impulsive spender you are.
Emphatically, NO. Especially if you are an impulsive spender.
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6. Taxes. When you're young and don't have a house, it's usually a simple 15-minute one-page deal. Minimal stress.
Yep. I saved myself $50 this year by doing my own taxes. It took me about two hours, because I wasn't familiar with the US tax forms (I used to do my own taxes in Canada), and I read all the forms to make sure I wasn't missing some allowable deductions or credits.
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7. Stock Options. [...]
They could have avoided this by selling by the end of the year or buying protective puts or collars.
I believe the word you're looking for is puts or calls.
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9. Add up how much you spend on fast food in a month. Wow! that much?
Not just fast food, either. Add up how much you spend eating out for lunch. $5/lunch (as if it were that cheap) times 5 days a week times 4 weeks per month times 12 months per year equals $1200. I had a pair of roommates that had no clue about personal finances. They were living with me (in my living room), and trying to save for first/last on an apartment. I couldn't figure out why it was taking so long for them. During one conversation, I tallied up how much they were spending on eating out, compared to brown-bagging. You should have seen her eyes bug out and jaw drop. It never occurred to her (or her boyfriend) just how big a drain on their pocket books this was. Not only did they eat out for lunch, but most dinners, too!
Needless to say, working for a company that provides breakfast, lunch, and dinner (if I'm working overtime) is a huge perk.
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10. Set aside a small amount of time every week to do this stuff, that way it never builds up and becomes overwhelming. I.e., pay all bills every Tuesday night, or spend 15 minutes researching investments every Sunday afternoon, etc.
Even that's more than necessary much of the time. I put all my bills due on the fridge, in order of due date. Every time I go to the fridge, I see them. As it turns out, they end up being due in two groups -- mid-month, and end-of-month. But otherwise, yes... good advice.
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#237526 - 14/10/2004 05:50
Re: Lack of real-life education
[Re: canuckInOR]
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addict
Registered: 25/06/2002
Posts: 456
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Also, you need at least two, in case one of them decides to randomly lock you out when you're on vacation.
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I say stick with one card, if you can. I've never had an issue with vacations in the US
Well, as I said, informed people can disagree.
I would point out a thread on this board where a UK resident got hosed on his visit to the US when attempting to buy a laptop for this reason.
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...on having many credit cards...
Emphatically, NO. Especially if you are an impulsive spender.
Agreed Completely. I didn't make myself clear before.
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7. Stock Options. [...]
They could have avoided this by selling by the end of the year or buying protective puts or collars.
I believe the word you're looking for is puts or calls.
I most emphatically did NOT. I said collars and I meant collars.
/music
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#237527 - 14/10/2004 08:23
Re: Lack of real-life education
[Re: music]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 12/01/2002
Posts: 2009
Loc: Brisbane, Australia
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Quote:
Another time, I received a check (from a college graduate) made out for "one hundred and thirty-seven dollars and 12/100". My bank wouldn't take it until she wrote me another one for "one hundred thirty-seven dollars and 12/100". She was stunned, and absolutely couldn't believe it when I told her that although the bank was being unusually pedantic, "everyone knows that on American checks the word 'and' should only appear between the dollars and the cents." She had never heard such a thing and thought I was just making stuff up. I almost had to bring her in to the bank to prove it to her. I'm sure she wrote checks like that all the time and this was the first time it had bitten her.
Just so I can have another rant. She had every right to be stunned. As far as I am concerned the extra "and" is correct English and is the correct form. If the US really speaks "English", then what was on the first cheque (that's cheque not check) was perfectly valid. If however the US would like to be different once again and call their language "American" then that's fine. Change the rules for all I care.
</end rant>
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Christian
#40104192 120Gb (no longer in my E36 M3, won't fit the E46 M3)
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#237528 - 14/10/2004 13:02
Re: Lack of real-life education
[Re: Shonky]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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"And" indicates a decimal point. End of story.
Hmm. Looking it up, it seems that this is a British/American difference.
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Bitt Faulk
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#237529 - 14/10/2004 14:02
Re: Lack of real-life education
[Re: Shonky]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/01/2002
Posts: 3937
Loc: Providence, RI
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Quote:
Just so I can have another rant. She had every right to be stunned. As far as I am concerned the extra "and" is correct English and is the correct form. If the US really speaks "English", then what was on the first cheque (that's cheque not check) was perfectly valid. If however the US would like to be different once again and call their language "American" then that's fine. Change the rules for all I care.
</end rant>
So you don't recognize that different dialects of the same language can be spoken within a single country and still be called the same language, or you're pretending this is different because it's not all within one set of boundaries?
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#237530 - 14/10/2004 14:35
Re: Lack of real-life education
[Re: music]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
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Quote:
Quote:
7. Stock Options. [...]
They could have avoided this by selling by the end of the year or buying protective puts or collars.
I believe the word you're looking for is puts or calls.
I most emphatically did NOT. I said collars and I meant collars.
Oops, sorry.  Awesome. I haven't made it 6 feet from bed yet, today, and I've already learned something new. Guess I can pack it in for the day, now.
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#237531 - 14/10/2004 14:42
Re: Lack of real-life education
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
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Quote:
"And" indicates a decimal point. End of story.
Hmm. Looking it up, it seems that this is a British/American difference.
Canadian schools (or, at least the ones I went to) teach the same -- "and" indicates the start of a decimal fraction.
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#237532 - 14/10/2004 14:44
Re: Lack of real-life education
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4180
Loc: Cambridge, England
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Quote:
Hmm. Looking it up, it seems that this is a British/American difference.
Yes, missing the "and" after hundreds, while completely parseable by Britons, comes across as a glaring Americanism. (And I didn't realise before that it was obligatory in some contexts to omit "and" after hundreds.) Mind you, I think it's only about a hundred years ago that "and" after tens started being optional: wouldn't Dickens have had "a hundred and thirty-and-seven pounds"?
Peter
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#237533 - 14/10/2004 15:09
Re: Lack of real-life education
[Re: peter]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Interestingly, I think most (non-ignorant?) Americans would say "a hundred and thirty-seven", but "one hundred thirty-seven".
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
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#237534 - 14/10/2004 15:14
Re: Lack of real-life education
[Re: wfaulk]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 09/09/2000
Posts: 2303
Loc: Richmond, VA
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I've NEVER heard of "and" being correct anywhere except as a decimal point. I distinctly remember this being drilled into our heads in 5th grade math. I'm planting my American flag in the ground and rejecting this "and-after-hundreds" funny business outright.
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#237535 - 14/10/2004 15:53
Re: Lack of real-life education
[Re: mschrag]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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I didn't mean to imply that it was American-correct in that instance, but only mentioning common usage.
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Bitt Faulk
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#237536 - 14/10/2004 16:16
Re: Lack of real-life education
[Re: mschrag]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 08/02/2002
Posts: 3411
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It seems bizarre to me that your maths teacher spent so much time teaching you English instead. And got it wrong. 
_________________________
Mk2a 60GB Blue. Serial 030102962
sig.mp3: File Format not Valid.
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#237537 - 14/10/2004 16:25
Re: Lack of real-life education
[Re: genixia]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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So what do you guys say when you have hundreds and fractions? "One hundred and thirty-five and four hundred and fifteen thousandths"? That's not confusing at all.
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Bitt Faulk
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#237538 - 14/10/2004 16:41
Re: Lack of real-life education
[Re: wfaulk]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 08/02/2002
Posts: 3411
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Correct, and no it's not confusing. Why would you write out that particular example? You'd write 135 415/1000, with the fractional part being written smaller of course. If spoken, there would typically be a breath between "thirty-five" and "and" which would create the necessary inflection to make it clear. I'm not sure whether this breath is large enough to qualify as a comma when written though.
More topically, "One hundred and thirty-five pounds and forty-two pence" would be used on a cheque.
_________________________
Mk2a 60GB Blue. Serial 030102962
sig.mp3: File Format not Valid.
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#237539 - 14/10/2004 16:44
Re: Lack of real-life education
[Re: genixia]
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addict
Registered: 25/06/2002
Posts: 456
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Quote:
It seems bizarre to me that your maths teacher spent so much time teaching you English instead.
Clearly, he didn't have a maths teacher. He had a math teacher.
Don't you realize this?
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#237540 - 14/10/2004 16:49
Re: Lack of real-life education
[Re: peter]
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addict
Registered: 25/06/2002
Posts: 456
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Quote:
wouldn't Dickens have had "a hundred and thirty-and-seven pounds"?
Anyone know at what point it went from "seven-and-thirty" to "thirty-and-seven"?
Perhaps late 18th century? Anyone know?
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#237541 - 14/10/2004 17:03
Re: Lack of real-life education
[Re: music]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 08/02/2002
Posts: 3411
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What? Everyone else in the World studies Mathematics not Mathematic. And as I analyse your post, I realise that you Yanks have a fixation witth the letter "zed" too.
_________________________
Mk2a 60GB Blue. Serial 030102962
sig.mp3: File Format not Valid.
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#237542 - 14/10/2004 17:36
Re: Lack of real-life education
[Re: music]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4180
Loc: Cambridge, England
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Quote:
Anyone know at what point it went from "seven-and-thirty" to "thirty-and-seven"?
Perhaps late 18th century? Anyone know?
I don't, but it Housman's A Shropshire Lad has "When I was one-and-twenty" in 1896, so, at least dialectically, it survived quite a while. OED, which is never very quick to move with the times, says that twenty-one has "now mostly superseded" one-and-twenty (entry "twentieth"). That's another good example of how something as seemingly linguistically simple as names for counting numbers, is in fact in a constant state of flux. Going back further still, it used to be "six hundreds of pounds" rather than "six hundred pounds" -- numbers used only to be nouns, but then they got adjectived.
At least before "9/11", quoting dates as two numbers is something else that marks out a speaker of US English. (And this time Britons do struggle to work out what's meant, as the numbers seem the wrong way round, reading it like a fraction as if it were 9 of 11 rather than 11th of the 9th. It feels as alien to proper decimal positional notation as does one-and-twenty.) During one early roadmap meeting, Rob wrote up on the whiteboard "Karma 10/6", and we all thought that ten-and-sixpence for an MP3 player sounded like a very good price. That's two for a guinea!
Peter
PS. Actually we're all too young to remember pre-decimal currency. But saying that stopped Rob writing his wonky dates.
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#237543 - 14/10/2004 17:50
Re: Lack of real-life education
[Re: mschrag]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/01/2002
Posts: 3937
Loc: Providence, RI
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I got it from my third grade English teacher. I remember it very well, she was very vehement that and would not be used between one hundred and the following whole numbers.
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#237544 - 14/10/2004 18:55
Re: Lack of real-life education
[Re: Daria]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 09/08/2000
Posts: 2091
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland
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Well, from a common sense perspective (with the aid of a bottle of wine) it seems obvious - 'and' has to be there because for 148, that is one hundred and forty-eight. The only other sensible option is to say one-four-eight. I'll go now 
_________________________
Rory
MkIIa, blue lit buttons, memory upgrade, 1Tb in Subaru Forester STi
MkII, 240Gb in Mark Lord dock
MkII, 80Gb SSD in dock
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#237545 - 14/10/2004 18:55
Re: Lack of real-life education
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5916
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
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Quote:
Interestingly, I think most (non-ignorant?) Americans would say "a hundred and thirty-seven", but "one hundred thirty-seven".
I always have problems with cabs in the US because of this. It seems most US cab drivers can't understand the English version with the extra "ands".
_________________________
Remind me to change my signature to something more interesting someday
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#237546 - 14/10/2004 19:11
Re: Lack of real-life education
[Re: andy]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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It's already stretching it pretty far to expect them to be able to understand English at all.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
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#237547 - 14/10/2004 19:25
Re: Lack of real-life education
[Re: genixia]
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addict
Registered: 25/06/2002
Posts: 456
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Quote:
And as I analyse your post, I realise that you Yanks have a fixation witth the letter "zed" too.
Ah yes, we do love our "zees."
We find them much snazzier than the sassy 'S.'
We're not quite so enamored of u's however -- saving them mostly for special occasions.
In fact, you might say it's our favorite thing to drop them when the Queen's English might find them quite proper.
Continuing on with the total diversion of this thread....
A girl in my English class when I was in high school protested that she lost a point on her paper for a misspelling. She pointed out (correctly) that she had in fact used the correct British spelling. My English teacher agreed and told her that she was free to use British spelling on all her papers, so long as she used it consistently and uniformly. Realizing quickly that in the long run she would face far more points lost for Americanisms, the student quickly backed down. I don't think the student relished the thought of looking up every questionable word to verify every case where British/American spellings differed.
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#237548 - 14/10/2004 20:03
Re: Lack of real-life education
[Re: andy]
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addict
Registered: 25/06/2002
Posts: 456
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Quote:
I always have problems with cabs in the US because of this. It seems most US cab drivers can't understand the English version with the extra "ands".
That's odd. This may be a regionalism, but in vast parts of the US, most people actually use the extra "ands" in spoken English. That's why teachers have to work so hard to pound it out of them in written American English.
So I seriously doubt it was the "ands" causing the difficulties.
Might be those pesky vowels. Did you try talking very nasally and brusquely?
Just kidding. I'm not sure which is more horrendous, a Brit poorly faking an American accent, or a Yank poorly faking a British one. Strangely, Aussies usually do a great job at faking an American accent (but the converse is certainly not true).
Hmmmm, now that I think about it, the American faking the British accent must be worse. I'm sure we generate a totally delightful mix of Cockney, Scouse, Oxbridge, and BBC received pronunciation. At least the Brit aiming for a US accent usually manages to hit something like a midwest accent with a little New York thrown in -- which is bizarre but probably less nightmarish than the American's unique concoction of British English.
My Bostonian friends were really annoyed with my attempts at Southie. They said I was "overdoing it" a little. Similarly, one of my British friends used to make me roll on the floor with his futile impersonations of a US deep south accent. He was nowhere close, but damn, whatever he was doing sure sounded funny.
/music
"Shine your shoes, guvna?"
"Four and twenty blackbirds"
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#237549 - 14/10/2004 20:17
Re: Lack of real-life education
[Re: music]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5916
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
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Quote:
So I seriously doubt it was the "ands" causing the difficulties.
That is what it seemed like (taking the "ands" out helped), this was in Seattle mainly
Quote:
probably less nightmarish than the American's unique concoction of British English.
I have an American friend that we have been training for years to say "bugger" properly, he still can't do it (but then we can't say "damn" in the same way he can).
_________________________
Remind me to change my signature to something more interesting someday
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#237550 - 15/10/2004 01:27
Re: Lack of real-life education
[Re: music]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5549
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
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Excellent post, music!
Set aside a small amount of time every week to do this stuff, that way it never builds up and becomes overwhelming. I.e., pay all bills every Tuesday night, or spend 15 minutes researching investments every Sunday afternoon, etc.
I have taken this one step further...
I have structured my repetitive bills (utilities, mortgage, insurance, etc.) so that they are either automatically taken out of my checking account every month, or applied against my credit card every month.
I am now in the position of writing ONE CHECK PER YEAR, and that one only because my water company doesn't accept credit cards. (I wait until I owe them a couple hundred dollars, then write them a check for $1000 and that keeps them off my back for another fifteen months or so.)
Once a month I go online to my bank account and compare my end-of-month balance to my 10-year budget projection, and make whatever changes are necessary to the budget (add/subtract a hundred dollars or so to my "unexpected expenses" category).
So, all told, I probably spend about 15 minutes a month managing my finances.
tanstaafl.
_________________________
"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
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#237551 - 15/10/2004 01:34
Re: Lack of real-life education
[Re: canuckInOR]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5549
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
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I've never had an issue with vacations in the US [snip] When I go abroad (out of North America), I call up my credit card company, and tell them what countries I'm visiting, and give them the dates of travelThat's the secret! When I was bringing the ShoWagon back from New Hampshire, my main credit card was suspended mid-trip because of quite truly fraudulent use -- a website with my credit card info had been hacked, and the criminal genius used my card to place long distance phone calls from his home phone. So my emergency reserve almost never ever used backup card came into play -- and by the time I got out of Canada, that card also got suspended because (understandably) my credit card company became concerned that this card than hadn't been used for 5 years suddenly got used over a three day period in three states and two Canadian provinces. Fortunately I had just enough cash in my wallet to buy the last tank of gas I needed for the rest of the trip home. So, yes, let your credit card company know if you are going to be doing unusual things with the card. tanstaafl.
_________________________
"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
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#237552 - 15/10/2004 01:46
Re: Lack of real-life education
[Re: tanstaafl.]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 23/09/2000
Posts: 3608
Loc: Minnetonka, MN
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I was just on a trip to Dallas last week and decided to buy a new laptop at Fry's. Well the first run through the card was declined I figured it was because of some fraud kind of thing they try it again and it goes through. Then when I go home I recieved a letter saying to call the credit card company to verify charges due to potential fraud.
Isn't it a little late then. I can understand though i'm sure they get plenty to short sighted pissed off people calling when their cards are declined for fraud protection.
_________________________
Matt
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#237553 - 15/10/2004 03:04
Re: Lack of real-life education
[Re: tanstaafl.]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/01/2002
Posts: 3937
Loc: Providence, RI
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That's a lot of water. I pay $26.80/quarter for mine.
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#237554 - 15/10/2004 03:20
Re: Lack of real-life education
[Re: Daria]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/10/2000
Posts: 4931
Loc: New Jersey, USA
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Mine is metered, but I usually pay $40/quarter.
Edited by robricc (15/10/2004 03:20)
_________________________
-Rob Riccardelli
80GB 16MB MK2 090000736
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#237555 - 15/10/2004 03:33
Re: Lack of real-life education
[Re: robricc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/01/2002
Posts: 3937
Loc: Providence, RI
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Mine is metered. That's just the minimum usage they always bill for, I guess.
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#237556 - 15/10/2004 07:30
Re: Lack of real-life education
[Re: music]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4180
Loc: Cambridge, England
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Quote:
This may be a regionalism, but in vast parts of the US, most people actually use the extra "ands" in spoken English. That's why teachers have to work so hard to pound it out of them in written American English.
How far were the Blues Brothers from Chicago? I'm pretty sure it was "a hundred and six miles". Does US English put the "and" back in if there's no tens digit? What if you write a cheque for $106? (British English puts the "and" back after thousands if there's no hundreds digit: two thousand and six, four thousand and ninety-six.)
Peter
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#237557 - 15/10/2004 07:49
Re: Lack of real-life education
[Re: peter]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 12/01/2002
Posts: 2009
Loc: Brisbane, Australia
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Hehe, thought that might stir things up a bit...
If the Blues Brothers say it that way, then it's got to be right.
_________________________
Christian
#40104192 120Gb (no longer in my E36 M3, won't fit the E46 M3)
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#237558 - 15/10/2004 10:10
Re: Lack of real-life education
[Re: Dignan]
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old hand
Registered: 28/04/2002
Posts: 770
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
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read "Rich Dad, Poor Dad" by Robert Kiyosaki. If you can get past the bad writing, it will be a major paradigm shift for you as it was for me.
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#237559 - 15/10/2004 12:18
Re: Lack of real-life education
[Re: peter]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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In my experience, and maybe I didn't make this clear above, "and" is used when prefixing the number with "a" instead of "one". Of course, there's still a lot of variation.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
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#237560 - 15/10/2004 14:48
Re: Lack of real-life education
[Re: peter]
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addict
Registered: 25/06/2002
Posts: 456
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Quote:
What if you write a cheque for $106? (British English puts the "and" back after thousands if there's no hundreds digit: two thousand and six, four thousand and ninety-six.)
On US checks, the "and" is only supposed to be used for the decimal point. Period. (er, uh, "full stop." Whatever.)
In spoken American English, in my experience, the "and" is frequently used, whether or not it is "a hundred" or "one hundred" or "four hundred."
But then, I'm from a region which frequently refers to someone being "six foot" tall, rather than "six feet" tall. And I know that the dropping of the plural for some units of length and measure is more common in the southern US and less common in the northern US. I have no idea if this correlates with other numeric speaking anomalies.
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#237561 - 15/10/2004 15:38
Re: Lack of real-life education
[Re: music]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 08/02/2002
Posts: 3411
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Can o' worms there.
I was taught tha units are never to be pluralised, even though it happens nearly all the time, "Five miles" etc. I don't recall the reasoning, but I suspect that it has something to do with the fact that the unit is abstract and not tangible.
eg When descibing the maximum amount of water that a "Five Gallon Bucket" would hold, you'd say "Five Gallon", "40 Pint" or "22.73 litre". Each gallon, pint or litre is abstract.
Now if you actually filled the bucket and wanted to describe how much water you had...
_________________________
Mk2a 60GB Blue. Serial 030102962
sig.mp3: File Format not Valid.
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#237562 - 15/10/2004 16:07
Re: Lack of real-life education
[Re: genixia]
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addict
Registered: 25/06/2002
Posts: 456
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Quote:
Each gallon, pint or litre is abstract.
This is standard US usage as well. I.e., "ten gallon hat," "forty gallon drum," "thirty-aught-six." Um, scratch that last one.
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#237563 - 15/10/2004 16:13
Re: Lack of real-life education
[Re: genixia]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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The reason that "gallon" in "five gallon bucket" is not pluralized is because it's not a noun; it's an adjective. You wouldn't describe a bucket that contained nails as the "nails bucket", but the "nail bucket". I've never heard of not pluralizing a noun that is preceded by a non-zero whole number. Well, other than with "cents" in certain rural areas: "How much is that gumdrop?" "Five cent."
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
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#237564 - 15/10/2004 16:28
Re: Lack of real-life education
[Re: wfaulk]
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addict
Registered: 25/06/2002
Posts: 456
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Quote:
is not pluralized is because it's not a noun; it's an adjective.
D'oh! You are correct. I didn't think before I responded.
Quote:
I've never heard of not pluralizing a noun that is preceded by a non-zero whole number
Well, besides the two cases I have already mentioned (certain lengths and measures), the other common case is when referring to livestock or game. I.e., "fifty head of cattle" or "today I shot fourteen dove." Again, the second example is most definitely a regionalism and is not considered proper -- just extremely common in certain areas. However, I believe "fifty head of cattle" is considered proper usage. (Webster, entry 4)
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#237565 - 15/10/2004 18:46
Re: Lack of real-life education
[Re: music]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 25/08/2000
Posts: 2413
Loc: NH USA
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If you were to behead those fifty head of cattle you'd have fifty cattle heads.  -Zeke
_________________________
WWFSMD?
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#237566 - 15/10/2004 19:02
Re: Lack of real-life education
[Re: wfaulk]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 08/02/2002
Posts: 3411
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Quote:
The reason that "gallon" in "five gallon bucket" is not pluralized is because it's not a noun; it's an adjective.
Oh, I totally agree. I think you misunderstood my statement;
Quote:
eg When descibing the maximum amount of water that a "Five Gallon Bucket" would hold, you'd say "Five Gallon", "40 Pint" or "22.73 litre". Each gallon, pint or litre is abstract.
Q. "How much water can a five gallon bucket hold?"
A1. "Five gallon."
A2. "40 pint."
A3. "22.73 litre."
The usage of "five gallon" vs "five gallons" in the question was never in doubt. In the question, "five gallon" is, as you've stated, an adjective. In the answer, however, it is not.
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Mk2a 60GB Blue. Serial 030102962
sig.mp3: File Format not Valid.
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#237567 - 15/10/2004 19:09
Re: Lack of real-life education
[Re: genixia]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Yes, and I disagree with your conclusion.
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Bitt Faulk
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#237568 - 17/10/2004 20:36
Re: Lack of real-life education
[Re: Ezekiel]
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addict
Registered: 25/06/2002
Posts: 456
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Since one subthread of this has moved on to regional usages and British/American language differences, I thought I would point out Eats, Shoots & Leaves which kayakjazz brought up in another unrelated thread here.
Fortunately, the American Edition has chosen to leave her British spellings, punctuation, and references unmolested; they simply added a preface (by the author) which deals with some of these differences. I have certainly enjoyed it so far.
Those of you who have read it have, no doubt, spotted my "Oxford Comma" above which is standard American usage, but no longer quite so standard on the other side of the pond.
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