I expect a volunteer organization which exists to provide care in 3rd world countries should not be scared for the lives of their workers to the point of pulling out, or we haven't actually finished...

Bitt,

Brad: the "neocon" term ironically is most commonly used to imply "conservative Jew"
I didn't have time or inclination to take Brad to task for some very broad statements. Others took up those tasks who I thought were speaking to those statements more personally. Reading this line, though, I am troubled. Where did this "is most commonly used" come from? Your deliniation of neocon history, Bitt, seems pretty straightforward for anyone who is willing to spend a few minutes with Google..

I have heard a couple of commentatotors on the radio, David Frum comes to mind, offer near-sotto voce comments like "well, those people have a thinly-veiled antisemitic agenda" in a defensive shot at critics of US-Mideast policy. So is this it? Critical mention of "Neocon" as antisemitic codeword? That is what this smells of to me. The sneakily-implying Frums of the world piss me off.

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It seems to me it's kind of like being devoted to North Carolina or Michigan or whereever you grew up. (Of course, it isn't as if they grew up there, but there's a similar bond.)

I would take friendly issue with this assessment. It's a pretty flawed analogy, but Sherman didn't march through the south and kill all the women and children....

Apropos this point, in my waking moments this morning, I heard a bit of oral history from a 50-something Jewish woman (in New York?) whose Dad was an Auschwitz survivor. Throughout her life, her Dad sheltered her from his concentration camp reality with "Oh, it wasn't that bad..." Finally, with Dad approaching his deathbed, the daughter forced her Dad to fess up. I'm doing a lousy job of describing this, but it was very affecting. Ah, easy, it is here.

Anyhow, all I mean to say is that, even for some (Jewish) people of my age who have never been there, I think Israel means a whole lot more than North Carolina. Now, does that make Israeli political policy correct or exempt from criticism? Hardly. Frum shouldn't have to spend his time searching out critics of Israeli policy in the US. There are plenty of them in Israel.

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Honestly, I don't have the energy to care. It's obvious what this administration's agenda is, and I don't have any notion that they'll be putting any more moderate people in power. (I honestly haven't looked at the other new "lesser" cabinet members at all.) All I can do is wait it out and try to convince people how much in opposition to this country's founding principles our current administration is, so we can get a good, solid LIBERAL in office next year.

Yeah, that's kind of where I'm at. The people have spoken! All events, nominations, etc. since November 2 completely predictable.

Some of the Democratic criticism did take the form of complaining about the color of the deck chairs, but as I think Tony mentioned, I also did take pleasure in listening to some of the more direct questioning and criticism of Rice such as Boxer's... maybe even more Mark Rice (MN) "I don't like to impugn anyone's integrity, but I really don't like being lied to repeatedly, flagrantly, intentionally," he said. "It's wrong. It's undemocratic, it's un-American, and it's dangerous."

I think it was Danial Schorr this evening who mentioned that Boxer's words could be used in foreign capitols to discourage aid to US efforts in Iraq. If so, I'm sure the Rushs will rail against anti-American senators who are undermining our shot at victory over evil. So, what are anti-American Americans to do? Not demand the truth? Confirm liars to cabinet appointments without taking exception?

...Brad, I read with interest Webroach's very recent, critical post. I think I have to agree with what he's saying. It's not enough to be the ganged-up-on minority. With statements like the "neocon" one above, I gotta ask how much research you are doing.

Well, I won't deny the differences between loyalty to your hometown and loyalty to your 5000-year promised land. My point was simply that I could understand the loyalty, even if I disagree. It does raise some parallels to current US culture, I think, in the realm of wanting to be loyal even while disagreeing versus feeling like you must agree in order to be loyal. I know I'm torn in my allegiance to the US. I know that it still has the capability of great things, even if I'l terribly, terribly disappointed at it at the moment. I imagine it's quite a bit like being a parent and finding drugs in your child's room. Or Lawrence Welk albums.

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next year

Uh, I meant next election.

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next year


Uh, I meant next election.

Shhh. You know you're not supposed to talk about the revolutionary plans in public.

pca

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I see an increasingly precious part of critical political discourse that is slipping away in favor of fascist-flavored media labeling and bombast.

Assuming I understand what you mean, I'll agree with you on this. I think both sides are equaly at blame. What's sad is that the labeling and bombasting isn't just in the media anymore - it's made it's way the floors of Congress. Maybe we were spoiled in the last half century. It seems that this type of politics was quite common in the not too distant history.

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Am I *rooting* for failure? I think Rush et al work pretty hard to equate *predicting* failure with rooting for failure. I feel a responsibility to predict failure if that is my conviction. Do I wanna tell my sisters "Oh, don't worry about <my nephew>, cuz it's all going to work out great in Iraq?" Should we not opine/predict? When placing the country in a complete lose/lose situation, it is pretty hard to predict success (although we seem to have a pretty good supply of functionaries who try!). Should I try to predict success like the starry-eyed Rumsfelds and Condis?

Well, we certainly have a disconnect here then. Are you truely "convict(ed).. to predict failure"? I could undertand if you saw failure and were convicted to express it, but it seems that being determined to arrive a certain prediction is pretty close to rooting for it (failure). The Iraq War is far from a lose/lose situation in most people's minds. We can go on and on about who is more likely to be right, but there have already been a million threads on this and I don't think this one needs to stray into that area. But the only way to ensure failure is to concede to it. Ted Kennedy seems to prefer this route, I do not.

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Karzai isn't called the "Mayor of Kabul" for nothing. Afghanistan is part of a region. I don't think it can be treated as a compartment separate from places like Pakistan. We made some mistakes and then made some bigger ones -- diverted focus. As Derrick suggests, the country is not secure. Not only has the Fat Lady not sung, I don't think her costume is back from the cleaners yet.

Do you really go through life predicting doom and gloom at every turn? Would anything short of Utopia satisfy you? There were a LOT of people shouting that military victory in Afghanistan was impossible and had in fact already been lost. We were going to ignite a nuclear war between Pakistan and India. Iran was going to jump into the frey. I'm not claiming that things are all hunky dory over there, but it amazes me what sort of results are being expected here. Maybe this wholePESD thing is real.

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I'm not really sure quite how it's ironic at all (because of your implied connection to neo-Nazism?)

Yes. This was all brought up because someone got so defensive over the term "liberal" and thought I was using as some sort of attack. We're getting WAY off subject here: Dr. Rice.

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It seems to me it's kind of like being devoted to North Carolina or Michigan or whereever you grew up.

Actually, very few Jews from that time grew up in what is now Israel I imagine. Everytime I read or learn more about how the UK and US started that whole mess by promissng this and that, I cringe.

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All I can do is wait it out and try to convince people how much in opposition to this country's founding principles our current administration is, so we can get a good, solid LIBERAL in office next year.

Did you use "founding principles" and "LIBERAL" in the same sentence? ? ? That's it. I officially blame this whole mess on the "Founding Fathers" for not being more specific!

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I'm damned proud to be a liberal, and if someone tries to insult me by calling me one, he's done a piss-poor job of it.

Well, I'm glad to know that you're not one of the (hopefully few) liberals who want to equate their "struggle" with the Limbaughs of the world with slavery of the civil rights struggle!

I even have a few friends that are liberals. I even invited one to my house once. Well, we actually just worked together at the same job.

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Maybe you're just not very good an doing research? I don't think _ww.KKK.com qualifies as a "secret little club" as you put it Brad.

First off, I'm not really sure how any of this came up. I'll need to re-read some of the first page posts. My point was simply that from the news reports I read every day (usually Reuters, AP or my local news feeds that get sent to my home page everyday) I see far more violence conducted against Jews in Europe (France in particular) than I do in the US.

Yes, the KKK have a web site. So does my neighbor's kid's band. Probably about as sophisticated. I think that doing a LexisNexis (or however you spell it) news seach would be more insightful than seeing who has a web page.

But the point is, the KKK is a joke. Ever since they lost in civil court (and IIRC a black woman who lost her son to KKK violence was awarded all of their property) the KKK is limited to Jerry Springer episodes and getting spit on while trying to be included as part of some city's local parade.

And I didn't look into that www .americannazi. com link, but I did see in the news yesterday they are wanting or did adopt some local road. Yep, they're striking fear into the hearts of litterbugs! Again, these people are a joke. Does that mean that we should condemn them or keep an eye on them? Absolutely not.

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And by the way, maybe I'm wrong, but I think "neo-" also goes quite nicely with:

-lithic
-classical
-futurist
-phyte
-tropical
-impressionism
-natal

Again, this was a minor side comment I made and I think we're wasting time discussing it when we're supposed to be talking about how Dr. Rice is a parrot for President Bush (oops, I mean for the people who are secretly running the White House through the conduit of President Bush), however I clearly said that the "casual observor" might make that association. I also said that those two terms were the only two that have been popularized. Not only do none of your excellent finds have anything to do with politics, I doubt that the average person is well versed in neophyte religious studies.

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But I quess you're right. If you do nothing but watch US broadcast media for your information, you might not have beenexposed to some of those.

Perhaps you'd prefer I Tivo the BBC or CBC broadcasts? Lots of documentaries on neoimpressionism that I'm missing out on? Perhaps a new reality show on neolithic studies that's all the rage?

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No offense Brad, you've always seemed like a pretty decent fellow, but you're coming off as someone who seems like he has a bit of a martyr complex going on. If you're the only one who's right, does it matter if everyone is going to "gang up on you" as you expect? Can't you just prove everyone is wong with carefully researched examples?

Martyr complex? I give a knowing wink to Jim about how I know I'm going to get out numbered on this and you think I'm trying a whole "pitty me" routine? I was simply stating that I know I have the minority view on these boards but I still enjoy debate - even if I get out numbered sometimes. I think the only time that I've even got offended here is when I read that someone here had a small view of anyone that was religous and I knew that it included me. Yeah, that hurt, but I just took a break from Off Topic and got over it. I'm sorry if I give you the impression that I saw myself as some sort of David vs. Goliath here.

And thanks. You're um.. decent too.

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...Brad, I read with interest Webroach's very recent, critical post. I think I have to agree with what he's saying. It's not enough to be the ganged-up-on minority. With statements like the "neocon" one above, I gotta ask how much research you are doing.

I'm confused. I said that "neo-con" is "most commonly used to mean conservative Jew". And THIS was only said after Tony made reference to those pesky "neo cons". And the whole point of that paragragh was to say I don't mind being called conservative so I don't understand why some liberals get so defensive about it.

Bitt gave more details that give some context and history to the origins of "neo-con". That supported my "common usage" statement.

Jim agreed that he proudly calls himself a liberal and doesn't view it as an attack (or even when it is, it's not an effective one).

So what's the gripe here?

Actually, we traded one set of bad circumstances (oppressive single government) for a different one (regional warlords and a region which is freer albeit with a higher ambient danger level than before at the center of the country). For some people it is more of an improvement, for others, not so much.

And of course, rather than actually finishing this before moving on, we have largely moved on.

Open Letter to Brad:

Thanks for expressing the conservative stance so well in the midst of this bombardment, with ya bro. Yes I agree that this is a lost cause for most on this board. However it may help to sway some anonymous reader that is not sucked in by the overwhelming number of liberals here.

It is sad that some people’s “estimation” of you has gone down because of your stance/beliefs. Of course that is what inevitably happens when people do not agree. Your still the same Brad as always but since you disagree with them you are somehow less. Note: See history – every war and prejudice is usually not personal but belief oriented.

Well I’m not going to comment much on this subject because I don’t care and need to get back to my “capitalistic raping of forests, sea turtles and natural resource.” I also need to kick my dog, finish my fourth beer and beat my wife and kids. Got to take it out on them because my 4x4 is broken (not really all that but the don’t care about this subject and need another beer is correct).

Keep on keeping on.

Hey, after all, what do they want, she’s black isn’t she?

Daring to Fly

A play in one short act.

Scene: San Francisco, on the northern approach to the Golden Gate Bridge. Behind the wheel of a small silver Japanes station wagon is WagonBoy, having driven south from the darkness of the Northwest winter to score some Humboldt bud, commune with fellow anti-American liberals, and marry another man.

The wagon, Washington plate 2LEFT4U, weaves between lanes so that WagonBoy can have the opportunity to flash the peace sign at all other cars climbing on to the fabled, glorious Red span of Utopian Socialism.

As WagonBoy nears the midpoint of the bridge he spies 3 men mounting the rail of the bridge. WagonBoy's bleeding heart almost comes to a complete stop. He pulls the handbrake, cuts the wheel to start a skid, and manages a 60-0 1-second stop in the curb lane behind the 3 men.

Two young men, looking a bit nervous and forlorn, stand on the rail on either side of an older man who holds one of each of their hands aloft in the manner of a referee at a prizefight. The older man, wearing wizened wire rim glasses and an expensive suit and with nary a hair out of place, turns to WagonBoy to reveal a radiant, knowing, confident smile. The youth on the left, a pale white boy with a white wall haircut and acne wears an OD t-shirt and some desert cammy pants. On the right a much darker-complected youth wears a very worn pair of Adidas and a torn "Hard Rock Cafe - Kirkuk" T-shirt.

[WagonBoy, shouting]: "Hey! Hey! What the hell are you *doing*???

[WiseOldMan]: "Well, I am teaching these boys to fly! Isn't that great? What a day, huh? Couldn't be a better day for flying!"

[WagonBoy]: "Flying? Are your crazy? If you step off there you are all going to die!"

(young white boy directs a confused glance at WagonBoy...)

[WagonBoy]: "Hey, you? Are you going along with this? What's your name?"

[white boy, Jared]: "Ummm, Jared. Ummm, I dunno. Everybody says it's cool to fly...and like if I get the chance I shouldn't pass it up!"

[WagonBoy]: "Hey and you, Hard Rock: What's up? Are you actually going along with this??"

[hard rock boy, Ahmad]: "Well, yes. My father, Ahmad son of Ahmad insisted that any of his sons fly if given the chance!"

[WagonBoy]: "Old man you are *crazy*!! Anybody who's ever jumped off here has *died*! It's that simple! You're not birds, you're men! You are way too heavy!"

[WiseOldMan]: "Actually, we are not too heavy. I have carefully measured my weight and I weigh only 1.3 kilos. According to my careful calculations, my flight dynamics are quite good. Now Jared and Ahmad here, they weigh only 700 grams each. They should have no problem at all!"

[WagonBoy]: "That's insane! No way do you weigh 1.3 kilos! Have you discussed this with your doctor?"

[WiseOldMan]: "Well, actually I have, but you know I have got to say that my doctor has been in his job too long. He seems to have lost the ability to look at issues of mass and flight in new ways. If I paid too much attention to him, nobody would ever get off the ground!....Besides, and I have this on very solid authority, there are massive air pockets in the tidal flows below the bridge that will cushion any landing in the unlikely event that we encounter any previously-imponderable ambiguities in the areas of flight dynamics management or atmospheric density."

(At this moment, a small silver Japanese sedan comes buzzing down the northbound lanes, executes a U-Turn, jumps the median, and comes to a stop next to WagonBoy. A pale, white man, wearing a "Live Free or ...Whatever" T-shirt jumps out and starts shouting.)

[pale guy, SedanMan]: "Hey you! (to WagonBoy) What are you doing? Why are you bothering these people? Are you rooting for them to kill themselves? That is *sick*! You should be arrested!"

[WagonBoy]: "Well who the hell are you and what the hell are you doing barging in here when you don't know what the hell is really going on?"

[SedanMan]: "Don't tell me I don't know what is going on! I'm SedanMan and I just drove straight through from Detroit to come diss all the liberals in San Francisco! You're one of them, aren't you?"

[WagonBoy]: "Well, genius, your arrival is untimely. These people are trying to kill themselves and I am trying to stop them. Why the heck didn't you stay home and diss some liberals there?"

[SedanMan]: "Well, I was going to drive up to Ann Arbor and diss some liberals, but I figured I might get shot along the way for driving a foreign car! .....But hey, I'm asking the questions here! Why are you rooting these people on? Trying to make them kill themselves?"

[WagonBoy]: "I am *NOT* trying to make them kill themselves! The idiots, at least the old yo-yo with the glasses and the snazzy tie, think that they are going *flying*! I gotta stop them!"

[SedanMan]: "Well, flying, that's a completely different story! Why the heck are you trying to keep them from going flying?"

[WagonBoy]: "They're not going to fly, they're going to be killed!!"

[WiseOldMan]: "I *remind* you that I only weigh 1.3 kilos and that my power-to-weight ratio exceeds accepted nominal thresholds given what we know about ambient air temperatures around the bridge pylons and that the angle of approach to the water should be quite acceptable given the massive air bubbles below the surface!"

[SedanMan]: "You see! He only weighs 1.3 kilos and that his power-to-weight ratio exceeds accepted nominal thresholds given what we know about ambient air temperatures around the bridge pylons and that the angle of approach to the water should be quite acceptable given the massive air bubbles below the surface!"

(At this moment, SedanMan loses his footing and inadverdently steps sideways into the 2nd lane. A Lexus sedan driven by a California pornographer with California plate ACLU4U smashes into SedanMan, throwing him 80 commie meters down the road....the pornographer slows for a moment, just long enough to shout "take that you right-wing anti-pornography fascist!" and flip SedanMan the bird.... after about 45 seconds, SedanMan props himself up, gets to his feet and walks back to the railing.)

[SedanMan]: "Now, as I was saying: You see! He only weighs 1.3 kilos and his power-to-weight ratio exceeds accepted nominal thresholds given what we know about ambient air temperatures around the bridge pylons and that the angle of approach to the water should be quite acceptable given the massive air bubbles below the surface! So tell me again, why are you rooting for these gallant young fliers to die? You should be ashamed of yourself!"

[WagonBoy]: "Me? Ashamed of myself? Holy crap! You should get your head examined! You are going to help get all these people killed. Even if they somehow managed to survive the fall, there are great white sharks down there!!"

[WiseOldMan]: "Sharks are not a factor. We have carefully analyzed intelligence from our allies in the shark community and we can report that shark populations in the environs of this bridge have been decimated by the large air bubbles! What few sharks remain have been scattered and are in hiding!"

[SedanMan]: "You see? Sharks are not a factor. He has carefully analyzed intelligence from our allies in the shark community and he can report that shark populations in the environs of this bridge have been decimated by the large air bubbles! What few sharks remain have been scattered and are in hiding! So tell me again, why are you rooting for these gallant young fliers to die? You should be ashamed of yourself!"

(At this moment, SedanMan, now a little woozy, shifts his weight and steps in front of biodiesel-powered Volkswagen. The driver, a 50 year-old woman wearing granny glasses and a Mu-Mu, swerves to hit SedanMan squarely in the back, throwing him 90 socialist meters down the road. The driver stops by SedanMan's crumpled form and gets out to deliver a short, pithy, critical diatribe to SedanMan in favor of the endangered transgender great white sharks, then gets back into the VW, California plate LIBHERL, and speeds off..... after about 50 seconds, SedanMan props himself up, gets to his feet and walks back to the railing.)

[SedanMan]: "You see? Sharks are not a factor. He has carefully analyzed intelligence from our allies in the shark community and he can report that shark populations in the environs of this bridge have been decimated by the large air bubbles! What few sharks remain have been scattered and are in hiding! So tell me again, why are you rooting for these gallant young fliers to die? You should be ashamed of yourself!"

[WagonBoy]: "Holy Crap! I am not looking for you to die, but if you jump, you most certainly will. Gad, old man, if Jared and Ahmad die, their mothers will hate you forever and their fathers will swear vengeance against those of us who let it happen. Why don't you let them go? If you're so confident in your flight dynamics, you should be able to fly solo, right?"

[WiseOldMan]: "Now who says I was going flying? *Somebody* with experience has to remain in the control tower! ... Jared? Ahmad? Ready?"

Troll.

Damn, Jim, sometimes you scintillate, squire