#250179 - 22/02/2005 02:13
DVR PVR
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addict
Registered: 11/01/2001
Posts: 579
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Now that I have an Empeg on the way again I am taking my P4 Car PC and converting it into a DVR/PVR Looking for suggestions on a good video/ tuner combo card MUST have a BUILT in Guide and menu system with remote was looking at the ALL-IN-WONDER 9000 with the built in gemstar system and RF remote but wanted input. Thinkin Freevo or maybe just use the build in software and run it on Win 2k.
Little 2.53P4 1G ram and 200G hd 7.1 Sound card nothing speical.,
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#250180 - 22/02/2005 02:47
Re: DVR PVR
[Re: belezeebub]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
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For Windows you should only be looking at Snapstream's Beyond TV or SageTV in my opinion. Maybe Meedio (formerly MyHTPC, now commercial).
Nothing (software app) from a hardware company is any good, including the software that ships with the ATI products - especially the horrible Gemstar Guide+. You can use any number of capture devices with the above software. I'd recommend using something with hardware-based encoding. The only product from ATI I can recommend is the TV Wonder Elite (brand new, comes with a remote). Make sure it will work with the above applications - I'm not sure if they've verified that yet. Otherwise you should probably stick with a Hauppauge card like WinTV250 or something - lots of people have them and they're well supported by the applications above.
Any other solution running Windows is nothing like a TiVo (I suppose you could also try your hand at Windows MCE, as it's getting better). You'd be very disappointed by Freevo and/or MythTV if you were looking for anything like TiVo as well. At least that's my opinion after breifly setting up and running MythTV and reading about and viewing shots of Freevo interfaces/requirements online.
Bruno
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#250181 - 22/02/2005 07:30
Re: DVR PVR
[Re: hybrid8]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 17/01/2002
Posts: 3996
Loc: Manchester UK
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When you say MythTV and Freevo are nothing like a TiVo what exactly do you mean? My Myth system has a complete 8 day guide for all the channels I receive, I can record multiple simultaneous programs, pause and skip backwards on live TV, use picture in picture. I've got web access, transcoding to a variety different formats, video streaming to my PDA, music playback, web browsing, etc.
Other than the recommending programs feature and the fact it’s not a simple plug the box in installation, I'm at a loss to figure out why TiVo is so revered.
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Andy M
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#250182 - 22/02/2005 12:53
Re: DVR PVR
[Re: andym]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
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You can do all that stuff with any number of programs, including the software that comes with Hauppage cards, Cyberlink's PVR software, ATI's Multimedia Center, etc... That doesn't mean they're anything like TiVo.
MythTV is over-engineered but underdeveloped. TiVo is as much about interface as it is about content. And its data content, thanks to Tribune Media Services, is 14 days worth - there's a big difference between that and 8. But the data volume is not what I had in mind when I made the comparisons.
I supose you have to use both to fully appreciate what I'm talking about. And that's the reason why most consumers take the otherwise crappy PVR solutions from their providers, simply becauuse they're told "it's just like TiVo" - not knowing the difference and how far from the truth that statement could possibly be.
TiVo was made for use on a Television. Every minute of using MythTV shows it was conceived on a computer display. I'm not saying much of MythTV's faults can't be remedied. But they do exist, in spades, with a stock/standard setup. You'd have to get deep into customization to make it clean, lean and fit well in a typical living room.
Bruno
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#250183 - 22/02/2005 13:22
Re: DVR PVR
[Re: hybrid8]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14493
Loc: Canada
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So, in other words, it's like the difference between a typical consumer PC runing MS WinWhatever, and a Mac.
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#250184 - 22/02/2005 15:41
Re: DVR PVR
[Re: mlord]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
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Except in this case both MythTV and TiVo run on Linux.  B
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#250185 - 22/02/2005 17:55
Re: DVR PVR
[Re: hybrid8]
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addict
Registered: 11/01/2001
Posts: 579
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never Said I need it to be tivo, I just want a guild that is fairly correct they I can use to record what few shows on TV I care about. as for OS it could even run on the dreedY Mac and I wouldn't mind sure I would feel more at home if it ran on M$ but that is just me.
_________________________
______________________________________
Do not meddle in the affairs of Network
Administrators, for they are subtle and quick to
anger.
______________________________________
Worlds Lamest Wb Site (mine)
http://home.comcast.net/~jlipchitz/
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#250186 - 22/02/2005 22:57
Re: DVR PVR
[Re: belezeebub]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
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I gave you the recommendations for (by far) the best Windows software - they just happen to also be the best recommendations for any platform you put together yourself given your requirements of remote usage , menu system and integrated guide. There's nothing from ATI that comes with any kind of guide that's usable from a remote control. For Mac OS there's simply nothing with any kind of Guide that works with a remote from anyone - only web-based guide from TitanTV. For Linux you have MythTV and Freevo - if you want to spend more time sccrewing around with configuration than actually using the setup, good luck with one of those two.
Bruno
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#250187 - 23/02/2005 07:18
Re: DVR PVR
[Re: hybrid8]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 17/01/2002
Posts: 3996
Loc: Manchester UK
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Bruno, I sometimes think we're looking at different software. I have absolutely no idea why you have such a downer on MythTV. I've never had to 'screw around' with Myth, it just worked. Take it from somebody who has used Myth for nearly 2 years now. As for the comment about it being under-developed, you've clearly not bothered looking at the cvs commits, there are people who seem to spend every waking minute improving, fixing and adding features. As for being over-engineered, what's wrong with that? Because it's design you can deploy it in a mind-boggling array of different configurations.
It pisses me off that you seem to take every opportunity to have a swipe at it. If you found it difficult to get going then maybe you need to brush up on your linux skills, because it was a piece of cake to get going and is a joy to use.
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Cheers,
Andy M
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#250188 - 23/02/2005 16:23
Re: DVR PVR
[Re: andym]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
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My point is that a finished product should not need any Linux skills. MythTV is a good platform from which to implement a custom solution, but it's not an ideal finished product in and of itself. It's something a few people can take and make an install disk for, polish up a nice interface and deploy on their own retail product. It's not something that even an above-average computer user would buy in a box to install on their own PC.
The problem with the over-engineering is that it's all too visible in its defualt config. There are just a dizzying array of options that never need to be shown to the user.
Think of it this way:
TiVo = finished consumer good (even it were only software that could be installed on a PC)
MythTV = TiVo-building construction kit.
Bruno
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#250189 - 23/02/2005 16:34
Re: DVR PVR
[Re: hybrid8]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/10/2000
Posts: 4931
Loc: New Jersey, USA
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Quote:
Think of it this way:
TiVo = finished consumer good (even it were only software that could be installed on a PC)
MythTV = TiVo-building construction kit.
I think pro-MythTV people think of it a lot differently.
Tivo=Expensive box that does primarily 1 thing. Recurring fee. Little customization. US-friendly and all other locations can suck it.
MythTV=I can get this to work with some old parts + a tuner card. Customizable. No recurring fee (other than your time). Doesn't sell your viewing habbits. Easily take shows off to be archived to DVD.
You're looking at buying a Tivo off the shelf and plugging it in vs. building a PC, loading up linux, installing MythTV and getting it working. You should be comparing buying a Tivo off the shelf and plugging it in vs. having your linux-savvy friend build you a MythTV box and then plugging it in. It's much more fair that way.
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-Rob Riccardelli
80GB 16MB MK2 090000736
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#250190 - 23/02/2005 17:41
Re: DVR PVR
[Re: andym]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2489
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So Andy... fancy building me one?
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#250192 - 23/02/2005 18:22
Re: DVR PVR
[Re: Dignan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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The biggest problem with TiVos is user interface speed. It can be very slow, especially with big hard drives. I was hoping that my HDDirecTiVo that has a big drive from the factory would be faster than my modded one of a similar size, but it's not.
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Bitt Faulk
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#250193 - 23/02/2005 18:23
Re: DVR PVR
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 19/01/2002
Posts: 3584
Loc: Columbus, OH
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Have you tried the CacheCard? I have one but I'm only using it as a nic right now. When I get some memory for it, I'll let you know how it goes.
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~ John
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#250194 - 23/02/2005 18:28
Re: DVR PVR
[Re: JBjorgen]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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AFAIK, they only exist for S1 TiVos, and the HDDirecTiVo is a S2.
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Bitt Faulk
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#250196 - 23/02/2005 18:33
Re: DVR PVR
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 19/01/2002
Posts: 3584
Loc: Columbus, OH
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Quote:
AFAIK, they only exist for S1 TiVos, and the HDDirecTiVo is a S2.
True that.
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~ John
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#250197 - 23/02/2005 18:35
Re: DVR PVR
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31597
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Quote:
The biggest problem with TiVos is user interface speed. It can be very slow, especially with big hard drives. I was hoping that my HDDirecTiVo that has a big drive from the factory would be faster than my modded one of a similar size, but it's not.
Agreed.
I knew, from reports by others on this BBS, that it wasn't any faster, and bought one anyway. I'm living with it. Sigh.
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#250198 - 23/02/2005 18:54
Re: DVR PVR
[Re: robricc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
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I don't think we have to follow through with the fact TiVo is a complete boxed solution. I did write "even if it were a software app" - because the recommendations I gave were for install-yourself, but finished (in a consumer-friendly manner), software applications.
By the end of the year, when Microsoft is selling more Media Center OS versions than non, most people won't find this an issue at all. Don't know when you'll see it in a retail box with CDs alone, but I know you'll be seeing it in place of standard XP Home or Pro installs you see now shipping with boxed systems.
Bruno
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#250199 - 23/02/2005 18:55
Re: DVR PVR
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
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Slow processor makes for slow UI. But it keeps the costs down and it's the only reason the systems don't cost as much as an Intel PC.
Bruno
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#250200 - 23/02/2005 18:56
Re: DVR PVR
[Re: hybrid8]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Since the CacheCards in the S1 machines speed up the UI tremendously, it's obviously not a CPU issue. Also, the fact that adding more hard drive space results in the UI slowing down would seem to direct one away from a CPU conclusion.
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Bitt Faulk
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#250201 - 23/02/2005 19:05
Re: DVR PVR
[Re: hybrid8]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/12/2001
Posts: 5528
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Lack of memory and a big DB with contention for IO is what is slowing the TiVo UI down. I've installed a CacheCard with a 512MB DIMM and it improves the speed significantly.
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#250202 - 24/02/2005 07:54
Re: DVR PVR
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 18/01/2000
Posts: 5683
Loc: London, UK
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Quote:
The biggest problem with TiVos is user interface speed.
The biggest problem with TiVos is that you can no longer get them in the UK...
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-- roger
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#250203 - 24/02/2005 14:18
Re: DVR PVR
[Re: Roger]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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The biggest problem with TiVos in the US is user interface speed.
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Bitt Faulk
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#250204 - 24/02/2005 14:22
Re: DVR PVR
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 06/10/1999
Posts: 2591
Loc: Seattle, WA, U.S.A.
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Quote:
The biggest problem with TiVos in the US is user interface speed.
User interface speed is not a problem in the UK.
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Jim
'Tis the exceptional fellow who lies awake at night thinking of his successes.
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#250205 - 24/02/2005 14:49
Re: DVR PVR
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12338
Loc: Sterling, VA
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Bitt, when you say interface speed, do you mean every part of it? The only times that I see a problem with speed is when I'm adding or changing a recording. Sometimes adding a recording takes several minutes! This seems to be less of a problem on the HD Tivo, but still a problem.
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Matt
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#250206 - 24/02/2005 15:57
Re: DVR PVR
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
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I've got a 512MB cachecard in my series 1. It speeds up DB access, but doesn't alter UI performance. For most people the latency is in DB access (which you've described as UI speed), but I still find the UI itself sluggish when not hitting the DB. We were talking about two different speed measures.
The DB issue could also be improved with a better DB scheme I believe - but given the resource constraints in the box, it will never be lightening fast (even with a cahcecard). We done some tests with enormous amounts of content using SQLite and speed was nothing short of phenomenal even with modest amounts of system memory and definitely without a dedicated 512MB cache. But, big differences exist between our test platform and a TiVo box.
Bruno
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#250207 - 24/02/2005 16:05
Re: DVR PVR
[Re: Dignan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31597
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Quote:
Bitt, when you say interface speed, do you mean every part of it? The only times that I see a problem with speed is when I'm adding or changing a recording.
Do you have a Series 2 DirecTivo?
The main slowness that bothers me in the user interface is when I am attempting to browse the channel guide. Each page of the guide takes agonizingly long to repaint, especially when I simply want to page through it quickly.
If you don't have a Series 2 DirecTivo, I'll bet your channel guide is faster because it doesn't have 1000 channels to deal with.
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#250208 - 24/02/2005 17:24
Re: DVR PVR
[Re: Dignan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Quote:
Bitt, when you say interface speed, do you mean every part of it? The only times that I see a problem with speed is when I'm adding or changing a recording.
That's a big part, and that's the DB access thing, about which I'll agree with Bruno is partially due to poor database implementation. But there are other things, too. Sometimes it takes forever for the "Now Playing" list to come up, which I'm inclined to say is a DB thing, too. There's other stuff, as well. But most of it is probably DB stuff, but, as an end user, I don't care what's causing it to be slow to respond. As far as I can see, it's just slow.
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Bitt Faulk
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#250209 - 24/02/2005 20:15
Re: DVR PVR
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12338
Loc: Sterling, VA
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Quote:
Do you have a Series 2 DirecTivo?
I've been using a Series 1 DirecTivo and an HD Tivo. In every respect the Series 2 is faster than the Series 1. Heck, when I added the Super Bowl in high definition to the record list, it took less time than my Series 1 takes to add some half hour show on Comedy Central.
Quote:
If you don't have a Series 2 DirecTivo, I'll bet your channel guide is faster because it doesn't have 1000 channels to deal with.
Well, aside from 1000 being a very big rounding up, perhaps you should tell the Tivo that you don't receive some of those home shopping networks or something. The last time I went through my channel list, I think I found about 30 of those things.
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Matt
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#250210 - 24/02/2005 20:19
Re: DVR PVR
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5549
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
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But most of it is probably DB stuff, but, ... As far as I can see, it's just slow.
Mine isn't slow at all... but since I don't have cable, and can receive only five channels, that might explain a lot.  tanstaafl.
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"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
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#250211 - 24/02/2005 20:21
Re: DVR PVR
[Re: Dignan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31597
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Yeah, I do that already.
So are you saying your Series 2 HD tivo doesn't paint its channel guide screens really slow?
When I say slow, I mean that when I page through the channel guide, a given page will take anywhere from 2 seconds to 20 seconds to render. While I agree that 2 seconds might not be considered slow, I think a 2d flat screen render of some text and a grid shoud be instantaneous and that even 2 seconds is unacceptable.
(By contrast my Samsung HD receiver would render every page of its channel guide instantaneously, and it displayed exactly the same information and the same channel set.)
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#250212 - 24/02/2005 20:26
Re: DVR PVR
[Re: tfabris]
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addict
Registered: 29/06/2002
Posts: 531
Loc: Triangle, VA
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The only problem I have with my Tivo is the changing of channels, takes for ever. Since I have comcast and thier cable box requires me to use the IR extenders instead of a serial cable. its such a pain to hit the channel up and wait for like 5-10 seconds .
_________________________
-D
Modifying and Tweaking is a journey,
not a destination................................
MKIIa : 60gig - 040103286 - Blue - v2 + PCATS tuner
MKIIa : 20gig - 040103260 - Blue - v3a8 + Mark Lord Special Edition Cherry Dock
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#250213 - 24/02/2005 20:32
Re: DVR PVR
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12338
Loc: Sterling, VA
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Quote:
So are you saying your Series 2 HD tivo doesn't paint its channel guide screens really slow?
Which guide are you using? My Series 1 is my own Tivo, and the HD Tivo belongs to my parents, but I've used it quite a bit. For some reason they prefer the DirecTV guide to the Tivo guide. Every time I'm doing a lot of searching in the guide, I switch it to the Tivo guide then switch it back when I'm done. The DirecTV guide takes forever to load.
The other thing that takes a while on my Series 1 is when I go from live TV to the Tivo menu for the first time after the Tivo's been sitting there for a while. But now I just press the Tivo button twice before I turn on my TV and receiver.
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Matt
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#250214 - 24/02/2005 20:46
Re: DVR PVR
[Re: Dignan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31597
Loc: Seattle, WA
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I don't know which guide is which, but the one I use is the one where I can see a grid of what's on all at once, instead of seeing a list of the programs on only one channel at a time.
The reason I prefer the grid is because it's easier to read, easier to see what's on "right now" for large groups of channels, and requires less brain work to make a decision about what to watch.
I agree that the other list guide is much faster, and I definitely use that when I'm trying to find a specific program to record.
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#250215 - 24/02/2005 20:55
Re: DVR PVR
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12338
Loc: Sterling, VA
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I'm probably wrong, but I believe the guide you are using is the DirecTV guide, and I thought the difference was that that guide has its information downloaded from the satellite every time you move within it. If that's the case, then it wouldn't necessarily be a hardware issue with the Tivo, just an issue that they don't give you the choice of using both styles with the Tivo information.
The problem is that I like both guides equally, but they do seem to function better depending on the situation. I tend to watch the same channels all the time, so with the Tivo guide open I can simply go to each channel and see what will be on for nearly the rest of the day in one glance. However, with the grid-style DirecTV guide, I can look at all the networks or all the HBOs at once and see what's on all of them in the next couple hours. I think I prefer the Tivo guide because I rarely find myself in the second situation, and if I do, I can just click through them.
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Matt
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#250216 - 24/02/2005 21:05
Re: DVR PVR
[Re: Dignan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31597
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Quote:
I thought the difference was that that guide has its information downloaded from the satellite every time you move within it.
Which, of course, would be strange since the other (faster) guide is displaying the same information. Dunno why they'd cache one and not the other. Doesn't make sense.
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#250217 - 24/02/2005 21:09
Re: DVR PVR
[Re: Dignan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/10/2000
Posts: 4931
Loc: New Jersey, USA
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Quote:
I'm probably wrong, but I believe the guide you are using is the DirecTV guide, and I thought the difference was that that guide has its information downloaded from the satellite every time you move within it.
I know that that's not what's happening. I remember reading on tcf that each item in the grid is rendered individually every time it's requested. That's just dumb if true.
_________________________
-Rob Riccardelli
80GB 16MB MK2 090000736
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#250218 - 25/02/2005 14:45
Re: DVR PVR
[Re: robricc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
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The guide data is downloaded from satelite during the course of the day and is stored in a database on the hard drive. Whenever you move through the guide in any view mode, it has to query the database for a selected range of content so it can display it. What I dont know if how far ahead they extend the query and how well the cache individual queries, if at all. There is a lot more data to be displayed and a more complicated query used, when using the DirecTV-style guide (the one I prefer as well).
Any time you're looking at TV listings data, regardless of display mode (Guide, Search, etc...) it's looking into the same listings database and just using different queries to bring up the matches. Anyone remember the database question post I made many many months ago with the lame "recipe book" example? Well it was for TV data usage.
Using a cachecard on Series1 machines improves all DB access times, so you get (MUCH) faster guide usage, much faster browsing of saved searches, now playing, season passes, etc..
Bruno
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