As usual specs are pretty vague, but if this makes it to market there will be alot more folks with a hard drive based player in their car.

http://ssiamerica.com/products/cj5100/

Okay, now THAT is starting to get scary. If they pull it off as spec'd at the page, that's definitely Empeg competition.

___________
Tony Fabris

Wow.

At CES it was an empty plastic case. If they're serious about a February 15th launch they would have to be running production prototypes through EMC long before now, so why an empty case? Sony and Pioneer both had more to show than that, and they're not even hinting at a launch any time soon.

Also consider this is Neo we're talking about - look at the state of the software on the Neo 35 currently and draw your own conclusions.

Rob

At CES it was an empty plastic case.

Was what you saw an injection molded part or rapid prototype? If the former, it means they already have molds made. First production could be immenent.

-- Glenn

If they're serious about a February 15th launch they would have to be running production prototypes through EMC long before now, so why an empty case?

Not to rain on your parade, but...

Whether or not they hit that particular date isn't really important. If it works as advertised (whenever they release it), it's something to keep a close eye on.

Now, I've only glanced at their page so I don't know any product details. And already I see several reasons why the Empeg is a superior product. Still, they've definitely made some careful choices about how their product will differ from the Empeg. And some of those choices will look very attractive to the consumer.

For example, as you already cited, it's obvious that the software and the user interface of the Empeg will fly circles around the Neo. But the problem is that the consumer doesn't get to experience this aspect of the product until after the purchase.

Of course, I've got reservations about the mechanical longevity of their hard disk and CD mechanisms (having both in the case means little room for vibration damping- is there any?). But again, this only becomes an issue in the long term-- at initial purchase time, the consumer only sees a feature set and doesn't consider things like shock mounts.

And the shape of the unit looks a little odd to me. Does it fit into a DIN space?

Fortunately, you've got that great display and Toby's visuals as a way to set the software apart. And issues with installation and durability will sort themselves out with product reviews and such.

Empeg has pioneered a whole new field of personal electronics. Now others are starting to stake their claims in this new frontier. This is going to be a lot of fun to watch over the next few years.

___________
Tony Fabris

Also consider this is Neo we're talking about - look at the state of the software on the Neo 35 currently and draw your own conclusions.

I imagine vibration, shock and heat will give this unit a rather short trouble-plagued life span (if it reaches production). You got to give them credit for trying to please the masses though.

This thing is soooo ugly! It looks more clunky than the Mk1 empeg, and at least that had a certain minimalistic charm.

I don't really see the point of a CD player if there's a hard-drive in there. Guess it's just for simplicity uploading MP3s, and I'm sure a lot of people will continue to want to play their CD's in-car despite having MP3 (I switched to MiniDiscs years ago...)

I reckon the empeg has/will launch multiple cheaper imitators, just as every great new invention does, and I won't be surprised if the crappy imitation brand outsells the original. But there will always be a market for people who know the difference and are prepared to pay for the best.

Empeg has nothing to worry about, at least not in my house!

Let's face it. That thing is what many guys at mp3.com's boards have been waiting for. If the neo 35 made such a splash, imagine what this thing will do, regardless of durability and reliability. In my opinion, it's very hard competition for the empeg, not in quality and features, of course, but in terms of appeal.
Now if someday the empeg gets fully redesigned, please please make the hard drives removable just like this thing!

The drives are removable! (just not by your average user, which I am pretty sure is not the averege Empeg user! did that make sense?)

If anything, more memory and a 10/100 Ethernet connection.
And while we are at it, a IEEE 1394 "FireWire", Scsi, colour display, and Majel Barrett menu voice-overs!

Smoker_Man
#080000449 MkII - 36Gb Blue

The drives aren't really removable. Come on, if you have to invalidate the warranty, then you can argue anything is removable.

Calvin

SSI specialise in plastics moudling - they seem to knock out tools at the drop of a hat. Even Rio often have injection tools complete many months ahead of a product launch.

So, doesn't mean anything, either way.

Rob

You can have one easily removable hard drive, or you can have two shock protected units. Given that synchronisation is going to get faster as the software matures, I know which I would choose.

Rob

From the pages, their drive isn't just removable, its designed to allow the user to attach it to the home computer via usb. I'm guessing but I would expect it to be mounted as a storage device. Drag and drop loading, no need for Emplode, just a file manager.

From another point of view. It could be said "Failed Drive? so what! go buy a new bigger cheaper one. Drop it in the sled. Load it up and get going again."

Did anyone else note that the other units they sell can be had without hard drives. The NEO 35 is priced Cheap. It can be mounted in the trunk. Remote display. Looks like they use 3.5" drives. I saw a 3.5" 30g selling for... Well the point is that compared to the 2g's I dropped on the empeg... Ok I'll stop beating that horse now.

Then only thing that gives me pause is that I didn't see anything in the way of specs on what actually converts the bits on the disk into music.

Still all in all I suspect they are going after a different market segment.

-- Glenn

I'm suspecting, seeing as the unit won't do anything computationally intensive (like ripping) that the box is basically a Neo35 (well, Neo25 now - the display is the same as the new Neo25's one) with both the CDROM and HDD attached to the single IDE channel.

Hence you can copy MP3 files from the CD to the HDD and do all the usual Neo things (bad shuffle play, not a lot of caching, etc), but it still uses a 3507 for audio decode so you just get MP3 playback only, no EQ, etc.

Yes, the Neo35 can use 3.5" hard drives. I could comment on how unadvisable it is to use a 3.5" drive in a mobile environment at this point (and how the 12v supply for the drives is badly regulated)... the lack of emplode as a manager is a major disadvantage (IMHO); extra metadata and structure is very hard to apply to a plain storage device (you'll see a lot more of this stuff becoming very useful in 1.1).

Hugo

I see a few points why that device would be of minor use to me compared to an empeg:
1. No emplode/other managing software
2. inferior shock protection of the drive(s)
3. no visuals
4. no equalizer (as it seems)
5. minor display and UI quality
However, I still think it will probably outsell empeg, because it is cheaper and it plays from CD.

cu,
sven
(MkII 12GB blue, #080000113)

there is an EQ button on the remote, so there's a chance

12gig red mk2 -- 080000125

all things considered, this device isn't so bad. tho i would love to see it have the power to rip/encode onboard.. maybe the Empeg2 will have that ability. there is certinly enough disk space to easily store the entire CDDB database (last i checked, it was less than 20MB) so tracks could be titled automaticaly.. just using something like lame, and some simple tools.

12gig red mk2 -- 080000125

Quote "Let's face it. That thing is what many guys at mp3.com's boards have been waiting for."

There's one fellow in particular named "Giant" who couldn't imagine the empeg not having an integrated 40X4 amp. He hasn't been spotted for a while, perhaps he's working for SSI. :)

maybe the Empeg2 will have that ability

..you mean empeg 3. We already reached 2

Rob

1. No emplode/other managing software
Just means they do it differently. They support the playlists generated by other software. (what are they? meu3 or something like that.)
2. inferior shock protection of the drive(s)
Are you sure their sled doesn't have shock mounting?
2,3, 4, 5
I think those fall under the "You get what you pay for."

--Glenn

1. No emplode/other managing software

Well, I am not about to trade my empeg for one, but I have to say that not haveing to rely on something like emplode is actually a huge advantage. These types of devices are basically large hard drives that happen to have built in mp3 decoding. The more you can treat it like a bare drive the better. I think the ideal compliment to emplode would be a USB mounter that allowed you to treat the empeg like a USB hard drive (and automagically created the appropriate FIDS and database entries as you copied songs to it). Ideally the empeg could emulate a generic USB storage device and no driver would even be necessary for most operating systems. You could plug your empeg into just about any computer withouth extra software and copy music to it. I wonder if you could do this and make it 'write only' to keep the RIAA happy?

-Mike

These types of devices are basically large hard drives that happen to have built in mp3 decoding. The more you can treat it like a bare drive the better.

There are advantages to doing it Empeg's way. Many of the best features are made possible because of the Empeg's database. There are certain things you just can't do if all you've got is a hard disk full of MP3 files.

Agreed, database bugs and synch failures are headaches when they happen. But these are very rare, and the advantages we get from the database are worth it.

___________
Tony Fabris

1. No emplode/other managing software
Just means they do it differently. They support the playlists generated by other software. (what are they? meu3 or something like that.)
They do not state which type of playlist the support. And by the description of the navigation, I assume they use playlist as an other word for directory and/or vice versa.


cu,
sven
(MkII 12GB blue, #080000113)

1. No emplode/other managing software
Well, I am not about to trade my empeg for one, but I have to say that not haveing to rely on something like emplode is actually a huge advantage.

While I agree that I would be happy with a unit that does not need a software like emplode, I can´t see a way to handle this amount of sound files without a descent managing software.

These types of devices are basically large hard drives that happen to have built in mp3 decoding. The more you can treat it like a bare drive the better. I think the ideal compliment to emplode would be a USB mounter that allowed you to treat the empeg like a USB hard drive (and automagically created the appropriate FIDS and database entries as you copied songs to it). Ideally the empeg could emulate a generic USB storage device and no driver would even be necessary for most operating systems. You could plug your empeg into just about any computer withouth extra software and copy music to it. I wonder if you could do this and make it 'write only' to keep the RIAA happy?

I guess this would solve the problems with almost any operating system. However, I don´t see how you could realize the current functionality of storing only one playlist/song no matter how often it is referenced by other playlists. There are simply limitations in that approach that might or might not outweight the limitations emplode implies on us.


cu,
sven
(MkII 12GB blue, #080000113)

2. inferior shock protection of the drive(s)
Are you sure their sled doesn't have shock mounting?

I didn´t say they have no shock protection, I said they have inferior shock protection. This might include no shock protection at all, but I can´t say that for sure.
However, guessing from the pictures and the text on their website, they have very little room for shock protection. There are two ways how they might have shock protection:

1. The shock protection for the harddisc (I´m ignoring the CD player for now) might be within the enclosure of the harddisc. But when you look at http://ssiamerica.com/products/cj5100/images/cj-04.jpg, you can see that there simply is no room for it in there. However, they might be able to add some shock protection here if they switch to notebook drives, like the ones empeg uses. If they do so, however, they will get considerably more expensive.
   
2. Another place for the shock protection might be somewhere in the unit itself, but apart from this being very hard to do (the whole slot where you insert the disk has to be shock protected, and therefore moveable relative to the front of the unit), when looking at the above image again, you can see that this also is not the case here.

Now, let´s have a look at the CD drive. Though this is not as much in need of shock protection than a standard desktop HD, I still would like to point out that it is simply not shock protected either.
As one can see on the above image, they use standard desktop HDs. Those are much more susceptible to shock than the notebook drive of the empeg. A few years back, when I last checked this, notebook drives where able to take shocks up to 10G in operation and up to 100G while spun down, while desktop drives where able to take shocks up to 3G and 40G respectively. Though I guess that they are more insensitive nowadays, but still the desktop drives can take much less than the notebook drives.
The NEO units are indifferently built as cheap as possible, no matter how (in)sensible the design is. To me, it would make sense to built a shock protected unit with dektop drives or a unit with notebook drives and without shock protection, but omitting both shock protection and notebook drives doesn´t make sense to me.

cu,
sven
(MkII 12GB blue, #080000113)

I think the Toshiba notebook drives take 175G operating and 800G parked. For some manufacturers they may say that is enough for in car use, no shock mount needed. I don't know.

Calvin

Many of the best features are made possible because of the Empeg's database.

I agree completely, and I think you may have missed my point. I was not suggesting any changes to the empeg's DB, just a new way of adding songs. Whenever you drop your mp3 on to the empeg mounted as a drive, the empeg would receive the file copy and use the ID3 tags on the file to populate the existing database. Basically the same way emplode does now, but with an interface that everyone is familiar with (their OS's native file browser).

Most of us would still want a tool like emplode to do after the sync database editing and configuration of the empeg. The USB drive thing would just make it dead simple to get files on the empeg at anytime with any computer.

-Mike

I can´t see a way to handle this amount of sound files without a descent managing software.

See my response to Tony, I guess I was not very clear but I was suggesting that we could have both.

I don´t see how you could realize the current functionality of storing only one playlist/song no matter how often it is referenced by other playlists.

Quite simple really, a file copy from the empeg to the empeg would create a reference to the file or folder (additional database entry) rather than a copy just like it does with emplode.

-Mike

The mounts are really for vibration - drives are much more susceptible to vibration than shock. The picture of the Neo5100 shows a 2.5" drive, not a 3.5" one which probably accounts for quite a bit of the price difference over the Neo35.

I'd be interested to see what the skip protection was like when playing a vanilla audio CD in the laptop CD drive they are using though - I suspect it's almost non-existent.

Hugo

I'd be interested to see what the skip protection was like when playing a vanilla audio CD in the laptop CD drive they are using though - I suspect it's almost non-existent.

Unless, of course, they're using realtime DAE on the drive and streaming cached wave data. But that's probably expecting a little too much, then, isn't it?

___________
Tony Fabris

If the architecture is like I suspect it is, then yes this is expecting too much. The audio path is connected only via the MP3 decoder (I guess they've added an analog mixer to mix in the audio outputs from the laptop CDROM) - at no point does the CPU actually deal with uncompressed audio. This is only going by what their other products are capable of though, I could be wrong. We'll see...

Hugo

Unless, of course, they're using realtime DAE on the drive and streaming cached wave data. But that's probably expecting a little too much, then, isn't it?

Actually, I'd be pretty upset if they do that yet claim to "play audio CDs". I have several CDs that play just fine in most players but are impossible to rip with any drive/ripper combination I've tried. I can't even return those to the store since they play just fine on their demo system. OK, I have to admit that some of those are of questionable origin...

Borislav

Try Exact Audio Copy. It copied out a hugely scratched maxi single CD of Concrete Blonde (Caroline) with no pops/errors whatsoever. It's slow but Wow. The download link is:

http://www.exactaudiocopy.de/eac6.html

-Zeke

just say you weren't paying much attention...

I don´t see how you could realize the current functionality of storing only one playlist/song no matter how often it is referenced by other playlists.

Quite simple really, a file copy from the empeg to the empeg would create a reference to the file or folder (additional database entry) rather than a copy just like it does with emplode.

This seems simple from the users view, but detecting such a "local" (to the USB drive) copy is not easy. While local moves are usually handled by just moving/renaming the link to the beginning of the file, local copies are usually handled the same way that non-local copies are: The OS reads the originating file and writes the destination file. There is no way for the device to know wether a write access is for a copy or a new file, except for accepting the whole new file and comparing it to existing ones after it got closed. Then again, the device has no really convenient way to know even when a file gets closed, it might just as well only be a file being flushed.
To get to the point of this all: A USB hard drive does not see any file opens, file writes or anything similar. It only sees sector/block reads/writes.

cu,
sven
(MkII 12GB blue now green, #080000113)

To get to the point of this all: A USB hard drive does not see any file opens, file writes or anything similar. It only sees sector/block reads/writes.

OK, nobody is agreeing with me and I guess no one got my point so I am going to stop bothering soon. I was suggesting the the empeg emulate a USB drive, not that the computer would be talking directly to the drive within the empeg. Since the empeg would be emulating a hardware device it could keep track of reads and writes and deal with making links instead of copies. I.e. if the OS reads x number of bytes from a certain location and then writes the same number of bytes to a new location and both files have the same name assume that they are the same file.

Actually for me at least this problem would be irrelivant as I only have one reference to each song on my empeg and I never really got the point to having multiple references (I prefer to create playlists dynamically using the search functionality).

-Mike

I think we know what you're suggesting, but at the same time it seems you don't quite realise how filesystems work under Windows (and most other OS's). To make something work like a standard Windows storage device isn't too hard - to make something work mostly like a standard Windows storage device, but with bells and whistles, is a lot harder.

Rob

my bad.. well.. last i remember, it was stated that the mk2 was not really a second model, only a revision of the first. that's why i said empeg2, not empeg mk3.

12gig red mk2 -- 080000125

I never said it was easy and I think I have a pretty decent understanding of what would be required. I just have high expectations! Designing an in car computer with the functionality of the empeg that will fit in a standard DIN slot is not exactly easy either.

-Mike

I never said it was easy and I think I have a pretty decent understanding of what would be required. I just have high expectations! Designing an in car computer with the functionality of the empeg that will fit in a standard DIN slot is not exactly easy either.

Its not just "not easy", it is outright impossible using todays hardware. There are two reasons for this:

1. The operating system (Win/MacOS) is a multitasking system, so writes to different destinations on the same drive might mix with each other. This becomes even more likely with caching systems that accumulate writes before flushing them, ordered not by file but by physical location of the file.
   
2. Because you might have multiple copies of the same file on the device (virtually), you can´t give a correct value of the (virtual) drives size, because the OS really sees say, 10 copies of a file (not knowing that they are copies), but they only take the space of 1 copy. What if you decide to add one more copy of(reference to) that file, but only half the space needed for the file is actually free on the drive? Using emplode, this won´t be a problem, but using the file interface you suggest?

There are even more things. Because of the first point above, the software on the empeg would have to accept the file writes, than search the whole drive for possible dupes (probably using content comparison rather than mp3 tag comparison), remove the dupes and replace them by links to the first copy.
A legal issue is also important to consider: Currently, the empeg is a "write only" device, you can´t get the files back from the empeg without fiddling with the developer image etc. This keeps empeg´s back free from legal issues, as discussed several times before. But if you were emulating a USB drive, you would be able to retrieve the files back (if you weren´t, the whole reason for implementing the file interface would be defeated, I think).
The issue would be completely different, if:

1. the legal issue about fetching files back from the empeg would get solved, and
   
2. one used the same fid-structure on the local disc as on the empeg (which would be just great if players for Windows/MacOS etc. existed that were able to use this layout).

cu,
sven
(MkII 12GB blue now green, #080000113)

I also wondered about an interface to the empeg over USB and had a much simpler approach : run a service on the win32 machine which listens on some TCP-ports which get forwarded over the USB link to the empeg. Suppose I had port 21 forwarded to the empeg, where an FTP-daemon is listening; an ftp to localhost would result in ftp-ing the empeg. It would probably also be possible to do the same for a samba server, which brings me to the point of linking files. AFAIK the CIFS protocol does smart copying; if a file on a remote server is copied to a location on the same server, the data isn't transferred to the client machine, but the server copies the data internally. This scheme could be used to automatically link copies to the actual data.
I allready had a connection to the empeg over USB, with the use of windriver software.
Empeg Guys, would it be possible to give us a small example of how to connect to the empeg over USB on win32 using the empeg VXD's ? I've tried the CreateFile call, but what should device.c_str() be?

Frank van Gestel

I've tried the CreateFile call, but what should device.c_str() be?


Never mind, I've got it working...



Frank van Gestel

It looks like you couldn't take this device out and hook it up to a home stereo or a set of speakers... that's an advantage the empeg has.

I have a cd-playing headunit anyways, so I would see no reason to upgrade to this...